Doctors Without Borders: Kunduz Airstrike Was 'War Crime'

[bananas]

Source: NPR

<snip>

MSF's General Director Christopher Stokes, saying in a statement that the group operates &quot under) the clear presumption that a war crime has been committed," insisted that anything less than a fully independent probe of the incident would be unacceptable.

<snip>

"We reiterate that the main hospital building, where medical personnel were caring for patients, was repeatedly and very precisely hit during each aerial raid, while the rest of the compound was left mostly untouched. We condemn this attack, which constitutes a grave violation of International Humanitarian Law," he said.

In an interview on Sunday's Weekend All Things Considered, MSF Executive Director Jason Cone, said it has been the "darkest couple of days in our organization's history."

Speaking with WATC host Michel Martin, Cone reiterated Stokes' description of the attack as "a war crime."

<snip>

Read more: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/04/445773358/doctors-without-borders-kunduz-airstrike-was-war-crime

[cantbeserious]

1. America - The Most Violent Nation On Earth - Both Domestically And Internationally

eom

[Thespian2]

12. One giant reason

I moved away years ago...don't miss living, or dying, there...

[NeoConsSuck]

82. You made an excellent move

I'd love to get out of this POS country too, but right now economics prevent that.

[EX500rider]

46. "The Most Violent Nation On Earth"

You can't be serious...

Not even close:

[cantbeserious]

48. Yes - Very

[EX500rider]

50. Not...

....the US is both below the median and average value for homicides per country.

[cantbeserious]

52. Yes - Very

eom

[EX500rider]

53. I suppose if you can't read a simple graph it may seem that way...

[cantbeserious]

54. One Can Read The Graph - Per Capita Stats Hide The Reality Behind Averages

eom

[whopis01]

59. Can you explain how that is the case?

Thanks in advance

[cantbeserious]

60. Per Capita Stats Hide Totals Across Populations - This Obscures The Total Number Of Deaths

eom

[cheapdate]

77. Per capita puts large and small countries on an equal basis for comparison.

Just looking at gross numbers would be next to meaningless if you were comparing two countries with significantly different total populations.

[whopis01]

83. The problem with you logic is that the U.S. doesn't top

the charts regardless of whether you use the per capita rates or the total numbers.

Not to mention failing to realize why it is only logical to use the per capita rates anyway.

[cantbeserious]

84. 80,000 Gun Deaths Since Sandy Hook - Which Country Tops That

eom

[whopis01]

86. Well Brazil for one

Brazil has had just over 100,000 firearm related deaths in that time period.

I will point out that the initial statement was about being the most violent country, not just the moth firearm deaths. There are other forms of violence than just firearms.

But even with your restructured statement, the U.S. still does not too the list.

[EX500rider]

87. 7 other countries top that..

Country homicides region

1.Brazil 50,108 Americas South America 2012
2.India 43,355 Asia Southern Asia 2012
3.Nigeria 33,817 Africa Western Africa 2012
4.Mexico 26,037 Americas Central America 2012
5.Congo 18,586 Africa Middle Africa 2012
6.South Africa 16,259 Africa Southern Africa 2012
7.Venezuela 16,072 Americas South America 2012
8.United States 14,827 Americas Northern America 2012

Considering we have 10 times the population of Venezuela that is a horrific number for them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[cantbeserious]

88. 80,000 Is Larger Than Any One Of The Countries Listed

eom

[EX500rider]

89. That's for 1 year:2012

Sand Hook was Dec 2012, over 2-1/2 years ago. Those figures would be much higher for that time period. Also those figures cover just homicide, not suicide. Add suicide and those figures for the other countries would be even higher.

[bemildred]

56. And how many have we killed outside our borders?

Where are all the war dead, injured, and disabled, their lives ruined for essentially nothing?

[cantbeserious]

85. Roger That - Those Numbers We Will Never Know

eom

[peacebird]

2. Clearly was intentionally hit, repeatedly, for 30 minutes. This was no accident

[Adrahil]

4. What do you think the purpose of deliberately targeting a hospital is?

I think this was obviously a misidentified target. What would be the point of striking a known MSF hospital?

[peacebird]

6. They were treating injured fighters from the other side.

[Adrahil]

17. <sigh>

So, you think the incredible PR hit for hitting a hospital would be worth killing a few fighters who were already wounded? Some of them probably severe enough that they were no longer a threat? C'mon.....

[840high]

22. I don't know how our

administration thinks anymore.

[Blue_Tires]

35. +1

[NobodyHere]

80. Anyone helping the Taliban deserves to be shot

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

26. And kept being misidentified for 30 minutes after they were informed they were attacking a hospital?

The incredible level of incompetence that suggest demands courts martial all up and down the chain. We don't need people that stupid in our military.

[totodeinhere]

37. And what should happen to the commander in chief in whose name this was

committed? The responsibility ultimately stops with him whether he specifically ordered the attack or not. And I am not implying that he did.

[KingCharlemagne]

62. He should, at the very least, personally apologize. America does not

Have a tradition of resignation.

[EX500rider]

47. "being misidentified for 30 minutes after they were informed"

When WHO was informed exactly?

I doubt MSF had the number/freq/callsigns for anybody involved at the local level.

Calling the US would take way over 30 min's for the word to filter back down to the operational level.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

61. You seriously think they called someone in the United States?

They're on the ground there, they've got local contact info. When they're working at a disaster in Haiti, they've got local contact info. When they're in western africa working with ebola patients, they've got local contact info. And I can assure you, when they're on the ground in live firefights in the middle east, they've got local contact info. They're not calling someone in the US for it to 'filter back down'. They're talking to the staff of the local operational commanders.

[EX500rider]

66. I seriously think we don't who they called yet.

[bemildred]

57. Both revenge and to send a message come to mind.

This sort of thing happens a good deal you know, and it is amazing how often the perps recently got their clocks cleaned somewhere else.

[KeepItReal]

8. Someone messed up...or misled US air power.

Wonder if we'll ever find out.

[erronis]

10. That was my immediate thought - someone with ulterior motives had the compound targeted.

Will we ever find out?

No more than we'll find out the true cost of all of our militarization and black ops.

The Afghani and Pakistani are much better at playing games than the young upstart USofA. They're used to dealing with external forces from way back when. And they'll be continuing to do it after we've stop shedding so much blood and resources in those lands.

[The Green Manalishi]

14. Yep, Make a list of empires. Make a list of where they faied.

Alexander the great, the British, the Russians..... list goes on and on....

[Adrahil]

18. My bet is....

that a source with a vendetta supplied fake intelligence that this was actually a command post and not a hospital at all. Might even have been someone who WANTED the U.S. to strike a hospital and take a PR hit.

That's not really an excuse, however. Targets should be better vetted than that.

[restorefreedom]

23. i agree

but it is hard for me to imagine that us intel does not know the locations of all the hospitals and international relief facilities in the area.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

27. Especially since they were provided with that info directly by MSF long in advance of the attacks.nt

[Adrahil]

29. Yup... but I do have some sympathy.

Sometimes the information does NOT get filtered to the right people. Again, that's not an excuse. It SHOULD get properly routed. Someone should be relieved of command for this blunder. And the U.S. should pay reparations to the victims, and establish better coordination with MSF.

[restorefreedom]

32. that could be

and if true, it would be an opportunity for the u.s. to show some real fortitude and make sure someone (not a sacrificial underling) is fired and reparations paid.

but i have a sad feeling that is not the way this will play out.

[restorefreedom]

31. i heard the dwb guy say tonight

they gave exact coordinates and the attacks continued. looks really bad.

[Adrahil]

33. Gave them to who?

I don't doubt they did. But don't assume that just because they told SOMEONE in the U.S. Military, that the info got to the right person. A full investigation needs to be conducted, and the person responsible held accountable.

I personally think there is no chance the attack continued despite the right person knowing. But if it did, then that person needs to be prosecuted.

[restorefreedom]

39. i dont know who they told, didnt say.

not that that makes it any better for them, but yes, whoever screwed up should be in big trouble.

[totodeinhere]

38. But the attacks continued for one half hour once DWB informed the military command that

it was a hospital. The way their command structure works they should have been able to call off the attack almost immediately once getting that info.

[restorefreedom]

40. that is what worries me. nt

[Caretha]

41. So very lame

If you believe that level of incompetence, then you will believe anything.

The personal at the hospital repeatedly informed prior and during the bombing to the proper authorities that this was a hospital. All proper procedures for identifying their location was well known and were blatantly ignored by the US military.

T.H.E.R.E W.A.S N.O D.A.M.N E.X.C.U.S.E

We (as in you & me) and everyone who pays taxes for the support of the ongoing atrocities and crimes committed by the United States of America military ventures are guilty. Now what the fuck are you & me & us going to do about it?

[totodeinhere]

44. I abhor this attack as much as anyone, but I do am not guilty for paying my taxes.

If I refuse to pay taxes I go to jail and I am withholding support for a lot of good things that our taxes pay for as well. The people who ordered the attacks are guilty but I am not.

[metalbot]

75. Not to derail, but that's not true

You can go to jail for lying on your taxes. You can go to jail for not filing your taxes. However, you cannot, in the United States, go to jail for not paying your taxes. It's not a crime. It's a civil case between you and the government.

[EX500rider]

49. "All proper procedures for identifying their location was well known"

So it had a big red cross on the roof?


The personal at the hospital repeatedly informed prior and during the bombing to the proper authorities..

Which was who exactly? If it wasn't to the ones doing the shooting there would be a delay getting word down the chain.

[JackRiddler]

15. I doubt it but it makes no difference.

I don't think there is a moral distinction in this case between intended and unintended targets. Contrary to the propaganda of "smart" targeting it is a statistical certainty that non-combatants will be hit, often, and that the majority of those killed in hostilities will be civilians. What is the legitimacy of the war itself?

[bananas]

3. Doctors Without Borders closes Afghan hospital, says U.S. may have committed war crime

http://www.latimes.com/world/afghanistan-pakistan/la-fg-doctors-without-borders-20151004-story.html

Doctors Without Borders closes Afghan hospital, says U.S. may have committed war crime

(Associated Press)
Ali M. Latifi and W.J. HenniganContact Reporter

The medical charity Doctors Without Borders closed its hospital in the Afghan province of Kunduz on Sunday, and charged that a suspected U.S. airstrike that killed 22 people there appeared to have been a war crime.

<snip>

The Pentagon said there are three investigations into the airstrike, one by the Defense Department, one involving both the United States and Afghanistan, and one by NATO. Pentagon officials have thus far said only that a U.S. airstrike Saturday morning may have caused collateral damage.

Doctors Without Borders said it would be satisfied only with an investigation by an independent, outside authority.

<snip>

Doctors Without Borders, also known as Medecins sans Frontieres (MSF) in French, said Sunday that the death toll had risen to 22 — 12 staff members and 10 patients, three of them children. The toll was an increase of three over the figure announced previously. In addition, dozens of people were injured.

<snip>

[SusanCalvin]

7. *May* have??

All these strikes on sovereign countries without a declared war are war crimes. Of course we've gotten used to that....

[EX500rider]

51. "All these strikes on sovereign countries without a declared war are war crimes"

Not in the least, we are in Afghanistan with the permission of their democratically elected government.

[6chars]

9. should Obama be marched to the Hague?

Just kidding, but that's what we say when other countries are accused in similar circumstances.

[Eric J in MN]

13. Let's see if Obama holds anyone accountable. NT

NT

[salib]

21. Unfortunately, that is a strong point.

Who's responsibility is it? Seems mostly like everyone is hoping to sweep it under the rug?

[mpcamb]

30. It won't be swept under the rug: could you ever imagine a better recruiting tool?

Somebody screwed up big.

First of all, I'm ashamed of this country for doing it.
It's morally reprehensible.
There can be no legal (or moral) justification for it.
It's certainly against the Geneva Accords.
It's a horrible tactical blunder.
It has no military value.
It's fully guaranteed to engender hatred by those directly affected.
Its also guaranteed to last for generations within their populace.
Disgusting. Just disgusting.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. Fine by me.

Just as Bush and his cronies should have been for the war crimes they committed.

[6chars]

34. can you go to the hague if you have a nobel peace prize?

[Hydra]

45. Kissinger certainly should n/t

[Caretha]

42. Yes

[bemildred]

58. I don't know about Obama, but we do have quite a number who should.

And if we don't do it someone else will have to do it for us, so it is better if we do it.

[bananas]

5. Medical charity MSF leaves Afghan city after fatal airstrike

http://www.globalpost.com/article/6662173/2015/10/04/medical-charity-msf-leaves-afghan-city-after-fatal-airstrike

Medical charity MSF leaves Afghan city after fatal airstrike

Agence France-Presse
Oct 4, 2015 @ 6:40 AM

Medical charity MSF said Sunday it has withdrawn staff from the embattled Afghan city of Kunduz, a day after an apparent US bombing raid on its hospital which the UN said could amount to a war crime.

<snip>

It is the only medical facility in the whole northeastern region of Afghanistan that can deal with major war injuries and its closure, even temporarily, could have a devastating impact on local civilians.

"The MSF hospital is not functional anymore. All critical patients have been referred to other health facilities and no MSF staff are working in our hospital," a spokeswoman for the charity told AFP.

<snip>

It added that despite frantic calls to military officials in Kabul and Washington, the main building housing the intensive care unit and emergency rooms was "repeatedly, very precisely" hit almost every 15 minutes for more than an hour.

<snip>

[Demeter]

11. One in a series

sigh

for all the good it will do to point it out

[mainer]

16. I still remember how the US military wouldn't let MSF land in Haiti

while allowing Israeli medical forces priority access.

The US military seems to have something against MSF.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mona-gable/doctors-without-borders-i_b_427470.html

[KingCharlemagne]

63. in a civil war, there is no such thing as a noncombatant. - nt

[whereisjustice]

19. They say they hate us for our freedom, but maybe its all the innocent people we slaughter

[Marrah_G]

20. I think someone misidentified the buildings

There is no advantage to killing MSf doctors. To do that causes more damage to the US then it does to the Taliban.

[Caretha]

43. They don't

give a fuck anymore. They've "pulled back the curtain, removed all the sets and now let it all hang out there" because they know we don't give a big enough fuck to stop them

Truly & really, we are now no better than the Nazi's. If feels horrible, huh?

[Marrah_G]

55. I disagree.

[Xithras]

71. Crimes against humanity don't require that the act be deliberate.

Deaths during war caused by negligence, indifference or neglect can also qualify. In this case, if the U.S. failed to adequately identify the target and simply struck the building because they suspected that it was used by the opposition, simply claiming misidentification will not be sufficient.

There needs to be an impartial international investigation.

[Marrah_G]

78. Oh I do agree

It is definitely a crime. Our country has committed many many crimes in regards to the middle east. I just don't think the military specifically targeted MSF.

[coolepairc]

24. Very troubling

Why are we (still) bombing Afghanistan? MSF has an impeccable reputation. The Pentagon is going to investigate this, oh yeah, I have a lot of faith in the American military investigating itself. Will follow DN!'s report tomorrow. Sorry don't have much in NPR any longer...

[Fairgo]

25. Conjecture, crime, and redemption

Let us weave our national psychopathy into a single, tragic narrative.

We tell ourselves John Wayne tales about the inherent goodness and manifest destiny of a righteous nation that protects the meek and mild women folk with god's own christian soldiers...and from the beginning as Zinn points out, we are blind to the holocaust we brought to the first nations, conflicted on our slavers history, dismissive of women's sufferage, defensive about white privilege...at every cross roads unable to face our brutish past or our criminal nature. Over the generations the song of ourselves became increasingly narcissistic and deranged. Hunter S. Thompson marked the high water mark of our political attempt to stem the tide. It's been hippy punching and debauchery in the coliseum ever since. Corporations have co-opted every aspect of public discourse. By their leave, every thread of human concern from global warming, to peak oil, to decaying infrastructure, to neo feudalism...to guns and to our never ending war...is encapsulated, discussed in isolation so as to permanently fragment the big picture...where we are chained to the wall in the allegorical cave...never to find our feet, or the path to social justice, or our own community.

We are numb to the point of moral catatonia, and complicit in our ruin. The empire is dead, rot from within. Long live the shadow empire.

Respondeat Superior. Yes, We (the U.S. military) knew what that building was and who was in it. Don't insult our mechanics and bag men. There is a chain of command and the blood rises all the way to the top. And the top is us (The vox populi). We are guilty, the president is guilty, the military is guilty... indeed, the hand on the trigger carries the least guilt...just an extension of the blameless gun. We talk ourselves into believing that we are not a party to it. We talk ourselves into believing our leaders have the best intention for the doctors, the ones we turned into red mist and concrete dust. No, our leaders did it for shadow empire. Our shadow empire - the one we tacitly support in our piggish consumption, self-serving discourse, and deep, deep, deeply rooted ignorance and fear.

We sit before our screens and the blood is on our keyboards as well. There is one hard and honourable path forward: Lead with our democratic values; organise for collective good around action inspired by those values; and do so at every level, on every issue, networked and pushing always forward over many years of social learning. But before that is possible, we must face and atone for the evil within. Clean your own house first, and walk humbly in the future.

[KingCharlemagne]

64. Bravo! Should be its own OP, imo. - nt

[flamingdem]

74. You are the author? Yes, please make an OP

So well stated.

[Fairgo]

79. thanks for the encouragement

The discussion here has inspired some interesting thought. I will take this tangent to a new OP.

[Blue_Tires]

36. That's a huge accusation to throw out there

we'll see if there is anything to it...

[Puzzledtraveller]

81. unless...

I'll leave it there.

[KingCharlemagne]

65. A terrible, fiery vengeance awaits this benighted land. Behold the

bitter fruits of imperialism, dressed up as "The White Man's Burden."

[Flying Squirrel]

67. All war is criminal

But some are more criminal than others.

[Cal33]

69. Do you think it would help any, if you said that to the big corporations -- especially the big oil

corporations?

[flamingdem]

68. We need to hear from Doctors Without Borders

If they say it's a war crime they know something.

Too soon to tell about this = logically it makes no sense to bomb a hospital. The repercussions are enormous and no one wants to go to prison because they "hate MSF".

[bemildred]

70. MSF 'Disgusted' By Officials Justifying Attack

Medecins Sans Frontieres on Monday demanded a full, transparent and independent investigation into the bombing of their hospital in Kunduz and said they were "disgusted" by the recent statements from some Afghan officials who have tried to justify the attack that killed 22 people.

According to Christopher Stokes, General Director of the organization: ""MSF is disgusted by the recent statements coming from some Afghanistan government authorities justifying the attack on its hospital in Kunduz. These statements imply that Afghan and US forces working together decided to raze to the ground a fully functioning hospital – with more than 180 staff and patients inside – because they claim that members of the Taliban were present."

"This amounts to an admission of a war crime," he said adding that it "utterly contradicts the initial attempts of the US government to minimise the attack as 'collateral damage'."

"There can be no justification for this abhorrent attack on our hospital that resulted in the deaths of MSF staff as they worked and patients as they lay in their beds. MSF reiterates its demand for a full transparent and independent international investigation," he said.

http://www.tolonews.com/en/afghanistan/21729-msf-disgusted-by-officials-justifying-attack

[flamingdem]

72. Unbelievable.

That IS a war crime. I hope MSF gets respect and more visibility for what they do from this - was surprised that many on DU don't know them.

[bemildred]

73. Yep. nt

[m-lekktor]

76. K and R! nt