Americans Recount Bloody Encounter With Gunman on Train to France

[brooklynite]

Source: New York Times

PARIS — The two American service members who tackled a gunman on a high-speed train traveling from Amsterdam to Paris rushed him even though he was fully armed, then grabbed him by the neck and beat him over the head with his own automatic rifle until he was unconscious, one of them said in television interviews here on Saturday.

The suspect entered the train car carrying an AK-47 and a handgun, according to the Americans. “I looked over at Spencer and said, ‘Let’s go,’” said one of them, Alek Skarlatos, identified as an Oregon National Guardsman returning from Afghanistan. With him was Spencer Stone, a friend and a member of the Air Force. “And he jumped, I followed behind him by about three seconds. Spencer got the guy first, grabbed the guy by the neck, I grabbed the handgun,” Mr. Skarlatos said.

The Pentagon confirmed the Americans’ identities.

The suspect wounded at least one passenger before the two men subdued him, and their quick action averted what officials said could have been a blood bath. On Saturday morning the French news media, government and social media praised their actions, and President Obama also hailed their bravery.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/world/europe/americans-recount-gunmans-attack-on-train-to-france.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

[snort]

1. Broke in to the wrong rec room.

[freshwest]

8. Tremors reference, followed by an evil laugh. n/t

[candelista]

2. I'm proud of these guys.

That doesn't happen to me very often.

[ailsagirl]

45. It's such an amazing thing they did-- took a lot of guts

Last edited Thu Sep 3, 2015, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)

[TwilightGardener]

3. USAF baby! They tried to give credit to Marines initially--pffft.

[Basic LA]

4. I thought the same thing!

In fact, early reports were a mess.

[sarge43]

5. Damn straight!

That's Airman Candyass to you, Gyrine.

[Nay]

9. Yeah, what the hell? One was NG, the other Air Force. And is there some other person who

helped in the takedown that is in critical condition? That also was in the first reports, which now seem to be totally factless, except for the fact that someone had guns in the bathroom.

[happyslug]

13. It was Air force, National Guard, Air Force

Three US Service men were involved. Three friends traveling together. The first man was Air force but that seems to be the result of their seating, he was closest. He was followed by the other two Service men acting together as a team. The National Guard soldier was,second but he was the one that ended up with the AK, which he used as a club. The third man, another Air Force Airmen help subdue the gunman.

In many ways they were lucky. The AK jammed due to a bad round of ammunition and the gunman did not know how to unjam it (which to record the action manually which is what people are taught to do in such situation in army basic). Badly trained gunmen but that was good luck for the train and the Americans on that train.

Given the clear lack of training of the gunman sounds like a one person action not tied in with any group. The gunman may claim otherwise but sounds like a lone gunman. Any group would have trained him on how to undo such a jam by the simple method of putting an empty cartridge in the magazine abd,when that round was chambered the weapon would have "jammed" and the shooter taught how to unjam it if he does not know already.

[Mona]

33. 3rd American...

...Isn't in the service, he's a college student.

[happyslug]

40. The Article I read said Air Force, but given this early date that may be wrong

The only two that were clear was the first two, the third may have been a collage student but ex Air Force (thus the confusion). None appear to be in uniform at the time of the incident, but the key was they acted together for they were all good friends.

[flamingdem]

6. The gunman asked them to give him his gun back

[LiberalElite]

7. Two good guys without guns

subdue a bad guy with more than one gun. Who'd a thunk it?

[onehandle]

16. Wayne LaPierre would like to have a word with you...

[img][/img]

[Devil Child]

10. Brave actions

Pure luck they were there in the moment. One less Islamic terrorist thanks to them.

[philosslayer]

24. How do you know it was an Islamic terrorist?

Jumping to conclusions before facts are out? Your prejudices have revealed themselves quite early in your DU stay.

[Devil Child]

30. Did you read the article?

Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve of France identified the suspect Saturday as a 26-year-old Moroccan man known to the Spanish authorities as a member of “the radical Islamist movement.” Mr. Cazeneuve, however, cautioned that the French police had not fully confirmed his identity. French officials had identified the man as a security risk, but he was not under surveillance and had apparently spent little time in France.

This was an attempt at Islamic terrorism perpetrated by a would-be Islamic terrorist. What additional facts you are waiting to see before acknowledging this?

Yes, I am very prejudiced against Islamic terrorism and terrorists of all affiliations. If that bothers you so be it.

[Codeine]

35. You poor, poor man. nt

[Yo_Mama]

43. You are the prejudiced one here! Documentation follows.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11818048/French-train-attack-Gunman-known-to-three-European-intelligence-services.html

The French authorities confirmed his identity by DNA analysis last night. He emigrated from Morocco in 2013 and moved to Spain, where he lived with his parents in the town of Algeciras, across the bay from Gibraltar.
...
At some point in 2014, he travelled to Syria, apparently to receive military training and fight in the country’s civil war.
...
A Facebook page appearing in his name contained postings in Arabic describing music as the work of Satan, and justifying Isil's burning to death of Moaz al-Kasasbeh, the Jordanian pilot who was shot down while flying coalition air raids over Syria. Postings on the page claimed that such punishments had been sanctioned by early followers of Islam.

He had been flagged by the intelligence services of three different countries as an Islamic militant.

Note that this was disclosed on Friday, late. The day of the attack the Europeans knew this man was an Islamic militant, and the Belgium PM said so.

[Go Vols]

26. results

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Sat Aug 22, 2015, 06:30 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Brave actions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1185378

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster is jumping to conclusions. No facts have come out as of yet, yet the poster is already deeming the suspect an "Islamic terrorist". I thought we didn't do that sort of thing here....

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 22, 2015, 06:48 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Let's wait until we know.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The French news is saying the same.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not only is this alert dumb, but the comments accompanying it are wrong. News reports have stated that the attacker was previously flagged by Spanish authorities for his connections to radical Islam. Attempting to shoot up a train is an act of terrorism. Therefore, this was an "Islamic terrorist" as the post stated.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The very article in the OP states "Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve of France identified the suspect Saturday as a 26-year-old Moroccan man known to the Spanish authorities as a member of “the radical Islamist movement.”

The French have not fully confirmed his identity but I think the poster is going by what was said in the article.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Devil Child]

29. Thanks for posting these results. n/t

[onehandle]

11. Over here you wouldn't know if they were practicing 'open carry' until it was too late.

Over there, you know shit is about to go down.

[sulphurdunn]

12. How did that guy

ever get on the train carrying guns?

[Demoiselle]

20. I wondered that, too.

From my very limited scanning of the story, I read that they don't put all passengers on all trains in Europe through extensive screening. I hope that changes now!


\

[Snow Leopard]

23. please no

the never ending security checking is a monsterous waste of time and money for very little security.

[philosslayer]

25. Have you ever been on a train in Europe?

There is no screening at all. You just walk on.

[NutmegYankee]

27. It's that way in the USA too.

one of the main reasons I like trains over airplanes.

[NutmegYankee]

28. Same way a man got a shotgun onto the Washington Navy Yard.

Hidden in a backpack.

[appalachiablue]

14. Courage & bravery too little seen. Bravo guys! A coward dies a thousand deaths, as Dad sad.

[wolfie001]

15. Best line I've read on DU in quite some time:

"beat him over the head with his own automatic rifle"........

[sufrommich]

17. That made me laugh too.

Do not mess with the Air Force,lesson learned.

I had to edit as it wasn't marines.

[Sky Masterson]

18. Gawddamn Heroes!

They need/deserve tons of money and accolades!
Maybe a parade and a Medal of Honor. Nobel peace prize.
A double date with Sophia Vergara and Shakira.
And a beer from me if I ever had the honor to buy them one!

[mountain grammy]

19. Two good guys with courage and brains.

[DashOneBravo]

21. Kick!

Well done guys.

[Turbineguy]

22. These guys are going to be

on the Wayne LaPierre shit-list for not using guns to disarm this terrorist.

[Devil Child]

31. No doubt.

It doesn't fit into the NRA's narrative. I can imagine an op-ed in the next NRA monthly on the dangers of France's gun laws.

[ncjustice80]

32. Let me get this straight.

3 guys with military training, without weapons or bullet proof vests, can wrestle a gun away from someone; but, American cops, with police training and bullet proof vests, can't do the same?

Why do we need cops again?

[duhneece]

34. Your post was pure genius

I"m stealing it and posting it elsewhere.

[treestar]

36. cops are not trained the same

be careful; you could find calls for cops to go through military training. And the idea was that the police force is becoming too military-like.

[ncjustice80]

38. Well, what good are they?

Wrestling guns and knives away from people is supposed to be part of the job description of being a cop- if anything its the military that is supposed to shoot first and ask questions later.

It illustrates how worthless American cops are.

[GOLGO 13]

39. Your wrong. The terrorist's rifle jammed as he was firing it. These 3 brave Americans got

very, VERY lucky & consequently beat his ass with his own weapon. We need cops for when the bad guy's gun doesn't jam & the slaughter has begun.

[happyslug]

41. What they did was the best way to handle such situation, Attack.

There teach that in any infantry school, if ambushed the best thing to do is to attack. To stay were you are is to give the ambushers time to shoot you down, to run, is to give them even more time to shoot you, to rush them gives the ambushers the least time to shoot, thus given three bad options, these three men took the best option.

I agree with you that luck was on their side, the shooter ended up having a bad round in his AK and did not know how to un-jam it quickly (as most soldiers are trained to do in the military, for automatic weapons are known to jam or other wise misfire), but that luck does NOT mean what they did was stupid, in such situations the best thing to do is attack.

As to Police, we can NOT afford the level of Police that would have had a cop on this train in this train car, the expense is to high. You have to leave people know they have to defend themselves within the law, i.e. what the three men did here, take down the shooter, is good for people to do (and then hold him till the police can arrive and take charge of the prisoner).

The only real objection I have is the beating of the shooter by one of the men who tackled him, depending on what the shooter was doing, such abuse could be excessive. At the same time, it seems the abuse did end when they had the shooter under control (i.e. the abuse was needed to subdue to shooter). That is my only concern, that the hitting of the shooter with his own gun may have been excessive. The only reason I say that is the shooter was unarmed by then and had one man holding onto him and the second man hitting him with the Rifle (and the third man coming up behind them). If the clubbing of the shooter continued after he was subdued, then it would have been excessive, but if it stopped when the shooter was subdued, then I have no dispute. The only reason I bring it up is that the clubbing with the rifle is repeated so often that it MAY have been excessive. It should be investigated but I suspect the clubbing was within the norm of what would be expected in such a fight, i.e. the clubbing was part of the fight NOT something done after the fight was over.

[happyslug]

42. I am of the opinion that Police should NOT be given guns till they are five year veterans.

Police officers have to get use to the idea of how to handle dangerous people without resorting to firearms. The problem is present training in the US, tend to opt for firearms use first and early. The officers first choice should always be his billy club, it forces the officer in with the people he is trying to arrest or control, unlike firearms which are best used at some distance away from the people one is trying to control or arrest.

Sorry, the best way to change that training cycle is to force officers NOT to carry pistols and address dangerous situations without firearms. Once such officers had master that set of skills move them up to firearms. Five years sounds about right for officers to get use to handling people without firearms being present, thus introduction of firearms after five years would not undo the training and on the job experience of that first five years without a firearm.

[Liberal_in_LA]

37. heroes!

[ailsagirl]

44. How proud I am of those three lads!!!!!

It gives me shivers to think what would have happened if...if...if

Thank God they were there and had it together to bring about saving all those lives!!