Greek MPs back bailout reform plan

[Bosonic]

Source: BBC

Greece's parliament has backed a government package of economic reforms aimed at ending the country's debt crisis and securing a new bailout.

In a late-night debate, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras admitted many proposals fell short of his party's anti-austerity promises.

But he said there was a "national duty to keep our people alive and in the eurozone".

The proposals are to be studied by eurozone finance ministers later.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33491452

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Some gov't lawmakers abstain in reform vote

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — The latest from Greece's financial crisis (all times local):

___

3:47 a.m.

The official vote count for Greece's parliament vote to back reform proposals has been announced, with 251 lawmakers voting in favor, 32 against and 8 voting 'present' — a form of abstention.

The vote in the 300-member parliament was to authorize the government to use its reform proposals as a basis for negotiation with Greece's international creditors.

Those abstaining or absent from the vote included prominent governing Syriza party members such as Parliament Speaker Zoe Konstantopoulou, indicating a potentially severe dissent problem that could threaten the government's majority in Parliament. The governing coalition of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras' Syriza party and the small Independent Greeks hold 162 seats.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ff42e1c67389404a8c0f5c27ea9e3039/latest-tsipras-meets-party-lawmakers-discuss-package

[ananda]

1. so sad

I saw this as a kind of economic game of chicken, and Greece blinked first.

That is too bad, so bad, for all of Greece and possibly the world as well.

[GliderGuider]

3. I agree. nt

[Fred Sanders]

4. The Greek government has the clear backing of the population and the legislature.

No one has blinked....but if that is the way the creditors want to save face and get an agreement and avoid a Euro exit, with unpredictable results, so be it.

[PoliticAverse]

8. Greece blinked, they accepted more austerity to remain in the Eurozone. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

9. The Greeks have accepted some concessions, as the creditors will accept concessions. Call it whatever

common-grade term you like, the majority of the Greek people support this compromise.

Who am I judge?

[PoliticAverse]

11. The majority of the Greek people supported what has gone on to create this mess.

"The more things change the more they remain the same".

[Adrahil]

30. Greece tried to play a bad hand.

They never really had a chance to win this. The alternative,a Grexit, would likely been much worse, especially in the short term.

[Hydra]

2. I guess there's only one Iceland n/t

[former9thward]

5. Iceland is not part of the EU.

And never threatened to default on its sovereign debt. Apples and oranges.

[Fred Sanders]

10. Iceland has it's own currency. 132 Krona to the dollar, 148 to the Euro.

[Hydra]

15. The Greeks could have and should have gone back to theirs

Opportunity missed. We had a big one of those during the Great Depression- Capitalism was dead and out of favor, it could have gone away forever here...instead it will wind up killing us.

[Adrahil]

31. To me, it seems like you have no idea what that would mean for the Greeks nt

[cstanleytech]

24. Iceland agrees with you

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-06-15/greece-ireland-can-t-default-like-iceland

Greece, Ireland Can’t Copy Icelandic Default, Sigfusson Says

June 15 (Bloomberg) -- Iceland is warning Greece and Ireland not to copy its recovery model even though the Atlantic island managed a return to international debt markets less than three years after letting its banks default on $85 billion.
“People should be careful when it comes to drawing comparisons between Iceland on the one hand, and Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland on the other,” Finance Minister Steingrimur J. Sigfusson said in an interview in Reykjavik. “Iceland didn’t have the ability to save the banks. Trying to rewrite the events that led to that eventuality as some sort of an export product is irresponsible.”

[ruffburr]

6. And once again-

The people are the ones that suffer because of bankers and politicians greed and avarice, Shameful, Remember we are next on the list, ie:TTP, TIPA and Fast track.

[Adrahil]

32. Well, keep in mind...

The Greeks were fine with electing these crooks so long as the cash spigots were flowing.

Even now, they vote to "end austerity" with no freakin clue how to do that.

[PoliticAverse]

7. "Tsipras admitted many proposals fell short of his party's anti-austerity promises."

"The more things change the more they remain the same".

[Baclava]

13. Higher taxes, pension cuts in new proposal

Greece bows to creditor demands in exchange for €53.5B bailout package

Greece met a deadline that counted on Thursday and made a series of sweeping proposals that its creditors needed by midnight to set off a mad rush toward a weekend deal to stave off a financial collapse of the nation.

The package met longstanding demands by creditors to impose wide-ranging sales-tax hikes and cuts in state spending for pensions that the left-leaning Greek government had long resisted.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/greece-crisis-higher-taxes-pension-cuts-in-new-proposal-1.3144321

-------------

Of course Germany and the other creditors could still say nein and bend them over the barrel even farther...we'll see.

[NRaleighLiberal]

14. damn...

[geek tragedy]

16. Mr. Bean and the Minister of Awesome fucked Greece.

They managed to achieve the worst possible outcome in every way-making a joke of democracy, alienating the rest of Europe via their immature shenanigans, and screwing the people of Greece by proposing a worse austerity plan than Germany had proposed.

Tsipras is the leftwing EuroBush.

[Baclava]

35. There wil be a few that want to hang him like Mussolini, but the majority will just blame Germany

?7


Greeks react to new bailout package with resignation, relief

ATHENS — Greeks who voted against harsh austerity measures just last weekend accepted the government's about-face on a new bailout plan with resignation Friday, saying it's better than the economic misery they've been living with for the past few weeks.

"It seems disgusting that the government would change its perspective so quickly," said Nikos Tochovitis, 34, a worker in the maritime industry. "But we're like hostages. We have to agree with whatever the European Union decides. We cannot go on as we are."

"Syriza campaigned saying they were different than other parties, but we can see they lie and manipulate like the others," said Elina Tassi, 33, a retail store worker. "The best case for us now is that they don't get us kicked out of the European Union and that our lives can return to normal."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/07/10/greece-bailout-reaction/29973469/

[NobodyHere]

17. So how long until Greece misses a payment?

And they get even further into debt?

[PoliticAverse]

20. Well one thing is they have to meet certain budget surplus targets in order to get additional funds.

So no surplus target met no next bailout payment.

[NobodyHere]

25. What if they don't meet the surplus targets?

Yet still need more money?


Greece has made a habit of missing it's targets.

[PoliticAverse]

26. Then they go through this whole process again? n/t

[bucolic_frolic]

18. I don't know what to think

He's a hero, he's a fool. He is a leader who went to bat for his
people. The referendum - ploy for leverage, showing all he can do?
A leader leads, but first he goes where the people want to go.

German banks rule the world, have since the early 1800s, it's all
about global power and lending now.

[PoliticAverse]

22. A true leader tells the people where they have to go. They need to exit the Euro

and get control of their currency back. That's the reality they need to
face.

"Lead the Greek people out of the eurozone"... "get back your democracy"...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017277690

[bucolic_frolic]

29. Thanks

It is a powerful speech, what a wonderful understanding of democratic
principles and political and economic relationships

smart guy he is

[Adrahil]

33. Tsirpas changed his tune for a reason

He knows a Grexit means economic mayhem in Greece for the next 10 years.

[FrodosPet]

39. If they do, they need strict wage and price controls as well, otherwise...

[roamer65]

19. ...and the proposal will be rejected by the Eurogroup.

The public opinion in the northern Eurozone countries is decidedly against any more Greek bailout money. These politicians want to be re-elected, therefore they will reject the proposal and we will see a Grexit. Some of Merkel's minions have already been sounding off against it.

IMO, I think Tsipras knows this proposal is DOA...but now he's kicked the ball squarely into Germany's camp for rejection. Germany rejects it and Franco-German relations take a BIG hit. Germany comes off looking like the bully of Europe, and the referenda nightmare begins for Merkel.

[PoliticAverse]

21. That would be the ultimate insult to Greece - they humiliate them by making them agree

to austerity, then they kick them out anyway.

I don't see that happening because I think they could have just used the 'no' vote to kick
them out if that's what they really wanted.

[daleo]

23. They will do what is best for the rich

That probably means an extension of loans.

[cstanleytech]

27. Thats not best for the rich thats the best greece because gives them the time to get on their feet

and hopefully institute policies to prevent themselves from ever going this deep into debt again.

[daleo]

37. Whatever causes the least disruption in the short run is best for the rich

As for the long run, that's a different story. I foresee major disruption to the current system of global capitalism. How long it takes, I don't know.

[cstanleytech]

38. " I foresee major disruption to the current system of global capitalism."

In the words of Col. Jack O'Neil "Doh!"
Of course there will be a major disruption in the current system eventually, just like eventually a volcano will erupt on the west coast and eventually the republicans will lose majority control of congress.

[Peace Patriot]

28. "I think Tsipras knows this proposal is DOA...". That would explain a lot.

I watched his response at the EU Parliament emergency meeting, to a blistering speech by the Belgian rep, in which Tsipras denied having a secret plan to leave the euro (or leave the EU). (England still has the pound but belongs to the EU, so Greece could, theoretically, restore the drachma but remain in the EU in other respects--at least I think that's possible--maybe not politically possible, though.) Tsipras gave his word of honor that he had no such secret plan. (He'd been accused of it that day I guess. The Belgian rep didn't accuse him of that, but was blistering about Greece's failure, in his view, to produce a detailed reform proposal. But apparently others had made the accusation.)

It was hard to get a sense of Tsipras because they had to use a translator (and furthermore a woman with a weak and hesitant voice). But I was zoning in on him, to try to get a sense of this man who had apparently defied all the powers of Europe, with his "no" vote huge victory. What I felt, watching and trying to listen to him, was a great uncertainty, as if there were two or three different Tsipras's. His attention seemed a bit scattered. He did not seem very strong in defense of Greece or the Greek people or his government. At first I thought he was gloating--he'd won that vote and this changed the game. Then I thought, no, it's not that--what is it? Is it that he looks not only exhausted but also...afraid? abashed? like a scolded boy? I did not sense strength of character--resolution, firmness--nor any kind of FDR-like confidence (in facing the Great Depression).

Anyway, if what you say is right--that he knows his proposal is DOA, and DID and does have a secret plan to exit the euro and/or the EU, that would explain, a) why Greece's proposal contains the very things that Greek people voted against (he did not see having to implement it), and b) why he seemed so...unclear? irresolute?...at the emergency EU parliament session. He was making a gamble--a very big gamble--and was, indeed, being two-faced about it--as you say, kicking the ball to Germany to turn it down.

I picked up somewhere that the "powers" had, or may, offer a debt forgiveness (20%?) in exchange for the tax and pension reforms that are in Tsipras' proposal. That might be enough of a benefit to Greece to warrant those concessions. But I haven't heard much about that since.

I don't know why the "troika" ("the powers"--the EU bank, Germany and who/what is the third? the IMF?) would turn down this proposal. It seems to give them what they wanted. You're saying that German and other voters are sick of the costs of belonging to a union (--something we're used to, here, i.e., California and New York forever bailing out Mississippi, Alabama, etc.). It seems to me, though, that Merkel, for instance, would be placing quite a lot of weight on a potential political fallout, as opposed to what a Greek exit would mean to the EU. Greece is a strategic territory, and also Merkel has been very committed to holding the EU together.

Well, we're all just guessing, at this point. But I was struck by your remark because of what I'd heard at the EU parliament from Tsipras (no secret plan, upon his honor) and what I sensed about the man (that he was tired, nervous and a gambler).

[PoliticAverse]

34. Oops: Greek proposal is only a 'basis' for bailout negotiation...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/11/us-eurozone-greece-institutions-basis-idUSKCN0PL07X20150711

[geek tragedy]

36. That's a positive sign--means they consider it

serious enough to form a basis for negotiations over the other half--the bailout loans.