Alexis Tsipras is making case for new bailout now

[brooklynite]

Source: The Guardian

Alexis Tsipras is making case for new bailout now

Alexis Tsipras is said to be laying out his position to the summit now, reports Ian Traynor in Brussels.

Donald Tusk will then ask ECB president Mario Draghi, EC president Jean-Claude Juncker, and Eurogroup president Jeroen Dijsselbloem for their views.

Draghi is expected to dwell on capital controls and the dire condition of the Greek banks, Dijsselbloem is to brief on this afternoon’s eurogroup meeting. Juncker’s contribution is less than clear.

These expositions are likely to be followed by a broader exchange on the feasibility of a new longer-term ESM bailout, the conditionality [the reforms Greece would commit to], the deadlines. Basically, by the end of the evening, they should have decided whether the eurozone and Greece should open a new negotiation. This, from EU sources, is perhaps the upbeat narrative.

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/07/greek-debt-crisis-alex-tsipras-seeks-last-chance-deal-live

---

(nb-Donald Tusk is the EU President)

[geek tragedy]

1. gotta love the EU, Athens is burning while they deliberate upon whether to decide to begin

to negotiate to seek agreement to resolve this.

[snooper2]

2. Do you give the drug addict another weeks worth of fixes, or tell them to go to a methadone clinic?

[geek tragedy]

3. or cold turkey on the streets?

what a mess.

[alcina]

5. Who, exactly, is the drug addict?

The previous conservative government's austerity programs -- a condition of the EC's funding -- did nothing for the people who elected Tsipras. The people that many here have called addicts and takers saw no benefit from the previous loans. After suffering for years, they succeeded in electing a government they hoped would save them.

Since 2009, Greece’s GDP has plummeted by a quarter and its household income by more than a third, while joblessness has trebled, to 26%. Swingeing spending cuts and soaring unemployment have seen about 3.1 million people, or a third of the population, lose their social security and health insurance, leaving the country on the brink of humanitarian crisis. Almost third of Greece’s population now lives below the poverty line, while 18% are unable to afford basic food needs.

But from day one, the EC has been firmly against giving any relief to the average Greek. As soon as Tsipras was sworn in:

Criticism was not slow in coming. The president of Germany’s Bundesbank, Jens Weidmann, said Greece should stick to its budget commitments. “I hope the new government won’t call into question what is expected and what has already been achieved,” he told ARD television.

The Greek people were warned, and those who control Europe's cash are clearly more than a little peeved that obeisance is no longer the norm.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/25/greece-election-vote-austerity-leftwing-syriza-eu


And in case you're wondering where all that earlier money went:

Only a small fraction of the €240bn (£170bn) total bailout money Greece received in 2010 and 2012 found its way into the government’s coffers to soften the blow of the 2008 financial crash and fund reform programmes.

Most of the money went to the banks that lent Greece funds before the crash.

Unlike most of Europe, which ran up large budget deficits to protect pensioners and welfare recipients, Athens was then forced to dramatically reduce its deficit by squeezing pensions and cutting the minimum wage.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go

[Ed Suspicious]

6. +1 Posts like this really help to understand the issue in a way that is not laid out by the usual

media sources.

[Igel]

9. Yes, but they bury the important bit.

"that lent Greece funds before the crash."

It's not just the crash that caused Greece to need loans. They've been taking loans and agreeing to restructure things well before fall 2008, but that's all they've done: agreed to restructure.

So after the crash they essentially refinanced and took out loans to roll over their capital payments and finance heir interest payments.

Somehow the current mess is now viewed as entirely the fault of the crash and the loans taken out afterwards, and it's a scam that most of the post-2008 loan was plowed back into the banks. It was finance the debt and restructure or default then. Most other countries that were shaky restructured. For all the pain of austerity, in many ways they're in better shape now than they were before. But we need to insist on amnesia, the full fingers-in-the-ear-La-la-la-la routine, because otherwise we have trouble justifying those we really want to justify and blaming those we really want to blame.

Greece is not in a better place than in 2008 because all it ever really did was agree to restructure. What restructuring it did, most of the austerity measures, are "implemented" for the future--rather like reducing Social Security benefits starting in 2020 would be "austerity." Their system is corrupt and leaky and political survival depends on letting it stay that way. Imagine in the US if most people managed to avoid paying most taxes not through avoidance but through evasion for so long it was just part of life. Then stopping tax evasion, non-payment of taxes that are legally owed, would then be taking away something and be interpreted as a tax increase. And tax increases are "austerity." The key for political survival in that situation isn't introspection, asking what they can do to fix the problem, but blaming everybody else to avoid any suspicion of a hint of introspection." The ancient Greek philosophers were heading towards viewing introspection as desirable; that was 2300 years ago, and one or two things might have changed since then. (As an aside, remember: Where ISIS currently is is the cradle of civilization; do we really think that ISIS has a thing or two to teach the West about civilization, based entirely on geography and gene distribution stability?)

The culture in the US is such that tax avoidance in some circles is a dirty word, but that just means arranging things legally so there is no tax liability, taking all the deductions the law allows, and even lobbying to get additional tax deductions (if not tax credits). Many here than pan tax avoidance make excuses for tax evasion.

[jonno99]

7. Not that I'm a big fan of banks, but this line isn't suprising:

Most of the money went to the banks that lent Greece funds before the crash.

If you borrow money from the bank - they are going to want it back (otherwise they stop loaning it to you)...

[snooper2]

8. Um, wasn't the socialist PASOK in power when they accepted the first bailout?

Then merged with the liberal-conservative ND party making a coalition before Syriza came to power this year?

Also you forget to mention that Tsipras, the day after election, joined in a coalition with the right wing independent greek nuts. More proof if it is ever needed that when you go far enough left you touch the far right to complete the political circle.



But oh no...
Damned banks were just in it to fuck Greece over...Not that all of these political players (Mostly from the left for many years) put policies in place that fucked their country.



Here is an interesting video for you...I wonder if this (54 year old now) is still getting his cushy pension? Looks like he is more than fit to actually do something productive for a living-



GREEK EX-POLICE OFFICER AGAINST RIOT POLICE

Uploaded on Sep 15, 2011
50 year-old retired Greek police officer, named Socrates, tells his former colleagues that they have taken an oath to protect and uphold the Hellenic Constitution and not the corrupt government that has violated it. September 10, 2011, Thessaloniki, Macedonia, Greece. Annual City EXPO.

[alcina]

11. So if I understand your points...

1. Over a decade of spendthrift governments -- left and right -- has led to this crisis. The people who caused it are no longer around to be punished, so it's completely reasonable to punish those who remain. Kind of like financial hot potato.
COMMENT: Hmm. Obviously I don't agree with the idea of being forced to pay for the sins of the fathers, at least not with interest. Tsipras has offered less extreme measures to address the situation, but his unwillingness to inflict continued pain on the average citizen seems to be an issue.

2. Greeks' refusal to pay taxes has led to empty coffers.
COMMENT: Greece charges and collects payroll taxes. Those who work, pay taxes. The taxes that are not being paid are business taxes and investment taxes. Early on Tsipras said he wanted to institute wealth taxes, increase corporate taxes, and raise minimum wage (thus increasing payroll taxes). The IMF instead wanted increases on the VAT -- raising the tax on food from 13% to 23% -- and cuts in social spending. Let them eat cake!

3. Instead of blaming the banks, let's blame the lazy pensioners. The banks made good-faith loans -- a point some dispute -- and deserve to be repaid. Pensioners' only contribution was their labour (and we all know what that's worth in today's economy).
COMMENT: I'm sure you'll not be surprised that I think the game is rigged in favour of the banks, and I agree with those who believe the loans were predatory in nature. See, eg, http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html
I also think, yet again, you're placing blame in the wrong place. From what I've witnessed here over the years, a retired US cop standing up to riot police would be lauded on this board. Not quite sure why it's different in this case.

4. Tsipras is a nut job because he formed a coalition with the right-wing nut jobs.
Politics makes strange bedfellows. He openly acknowledged that this was somewhat of a deal with the devil. However, because of their shared opposition to the austerity measures, this was the coalition that could be achieved. I do agree with you, though, that the extremes on both ends of the spectrum eventually meet (and research bears this out).

[cloudythescribbler]

10. is that the view taken when Germany was bailed out in 1953?

[ananda]

4. I think the EU is doing this to send a message to countries..

.. that might also want to find a better, more humane resolution.