No basis now for new debt talks with Greece: Germany

[Bosonic]

Source: AFP

Germany said Monday that there was currently "no basis" for talks with Greece on a new bailout package or debt relief, following a resounding 'No' in a referendum on creditors' proposals.

"In light of yesterday's decision by Greek citizens, there is no basis to enter into negotiations on a new aid programme," German Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said.

Regarding requests by Athens to restructure its debt, finance ministry spokesman Martin Jaeger said: "I can see no reason to enter into discussions."

Read more: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/no-basis-now-debt-talks-100931825.html#mrWqw36

[Berlin Expat]

1. To paraphrase

the famous NY Daily News headline:

Merkel To Greece: Drop Dead

[Demeter]

2. So much for European brotherhood and Unity--Kiss the Eurozone Goodbye!

By rights, they should throw Germany out and band together against Merkel, Schaeble and the rest. But it's more likely the whole shebang falls apart. And they just finished that palace in Brussels, too.

[brooklynite]

4. So you object to the entire European Union?

You seem to be conflating the entire organization with the Eurozone, which Greece accepted entry into without apparently having the economic requirements.

[Igel]

9. Yup.

"Hey, you, Germany and the rest. We got your money, nya-nya-nya! Gonna take it from us? Screw you! We got democracy telling us we don't have to pay anything back! Those promises we made? Not gonna happen, you losers. Fool you once, shame on you; fool you twice, good for us. Whadda we up to? Fool you nine times, roulez les bons temps!

"What? You're cancelling the credit cards? Not gonna give us our money? Hey, wait! What about solidarity?"

I had this phase when I was in my teens. "No, mom, I'm not going to do that. I'm almost a grown up, you're not going to tell me what to do. Uh ... Can I have the keys to the car and some money?"

It'll be interesting to see what the grown ups do.

[CanonRay]

20. Looks like it would make a nice public library and lecture hall

or an Evangelical mega-church if it were in the U.S.

[fasttense]

3. If Europe had responded like that after WWII to Germany about their debt

Than Germany would not be in the position today to screw over the country they attacked and left in ruins.

If the EU offers no debt relief to Greece, then I think every nation in the EU needs to reconsider its membership. Because, the banksters obviously have a strangle hold on the union.

[Ironing Man]

5. tiny facts...

Germany - and everyone else - has already given Greece Debt Relief, all of its creditors have already taken a (iirc) a 20% 'haircut'.

moreover, the comparision - often seen here - between the debt relief given to Germany post-war and the further debt relief asked for by Greece differs in one very significant way: the condition required was that Germany would not invade and occupy Europe, however no one (not even the French and Spannish, the loudest of those calling for a new deal for Greece..) believes that if Greece is given both further debt relief and additional bail-out funds, that in 10 years time we won't be back in exactly the same place.

there is simply no faith in Greece doing what it says it will do - at every stage it has said it will tighten up its tax avoidance culture, its bloated civil service, its welfare state that it can't afford (for those interested, Greece is asking for Debt Forgiveness and bail-out from countries that have later retirement ages, and lower pensions, than Greece - how well do you think that goes down?), but every single time they go on the back burner once the money is in the bank.

this is probably the end of that process - much as Greece as a sovereign state has the absolute right to reject a proposal as not being in its interests, the other EZ states, as equally democratic, equally sovereign states, have the absolute right not to put forward another proposal or agree to any future proposal from Greece.

[T_i_B]

7. Whatever happens now....

....it's going to be very painful for Greece. Not a matter of the best outcome but the least worst.

My own gripe is how quickly the referendum was held. Not a great amount of time for Greek voters to make sense of things.

[Surya Gayatri]

37. Ya think? Talk about a last ditch, knee-jerk, hail-mary pass.

My own gripe is how quickly the referendum was held. Not a great amount of time for Greek voters to make sense of things.

[T_i_B]

44. Well, it's a huge decision

And it is going to be very painful for Greece either way. If I were a Greek voter I'd want to study the facts at great length before taking sides.

[jwirr]

8. No faith in Greece doing what it says it will do? Austerity has never been a solution to economic

disaster because it does not work. I would phrase it differently. Greece has not been able to do what it says it will do because what they are demanding does not work. If Germany wants to get paid back they will restructure the debt to reasonable payments and use the same methods we used to rebuild their economy in Greece. That does not mean a measly 20% cut in the loans. Loans that should never have been given in the first place. Just more risky loan fall out.

[hill2016]

13. so

why should more loans be given? Aren't they even more risky?

[jwirr]

18. Absolutely and I do not think I said more loans should be given. The debt should be restructured

in a way that it can be paid back in time. The rich and corporations should be taxed. And I have heard that they are talking about "humanitarian aid". Something like the Marshal Plan? Hopefully.

It does not help either the country or the world to let countries fail by using a method that does not work to try to fix it. It effects all of us. And since austerity does not work something else needs to he tried. Something along the lines of the Marshal Plan and Keynesian economic plans. Something that actually has a history of working.

[Ironing Man]

16. more facts...

tiny problem with your rant - Greece has been failing to live up to its commitments to the EU on tax collection, governance etc.. since it joined the EU (then the EEC) in 1981, long before the single currency, and a very time before austerity.

the rest of Europe has got very bored of listening to Greece and its excuses, and so, on wednesday or thursday, its cashpoint machines will run out of money.

i realise that having a laughably simplistic understanding of things it doesn't understand and hasn't researched is an American trait, but i would have thought that someone who professed support for a presidential candidate somewhat critical of the US's interventions in other peoples countries might have displayed a little more understanding of a far away subject about which most Americans know little, but apparently not...

[jwirr]

19. I am aware of what you are talking about. I have no problem with restructuring the government

in Greece and I sure have no problem with taxing the rich and corporations. As far as I can see a lot of the rest of the world is headed in the same direction for the same reasons. What I am objecting to is demanding that the little people pay for this when the rich and corporations are not.

I also would like to know why EU let this problem get to this level? Why keep borrowing to them for so long? And you are correct this started long before - probably with the Goldman Sachs loan. Why else would GS have helped them lie their way into the EU?

The problem I have with what is happening now is that when it was allowed to get this bad - there is very little that can be done to end it if all we are going to do is call for austerity.

Do you really trust the bankers that much? It was them who let this happen and get this bad. It was Greek bankers who made the deals and took the loans. In every country throughout the world that ends in crisis we find the bankers including IMF and the World Bank setting there demanding that risky loans be paid back. I want something worked out for Greece that will work and still allow them to eventually get this paid. I do not see that happening with austerity. If the economy is crushed there will be no money to pay the debt. Oh, wait of course the poor can pay for it.....that is what the bankers were counting on when they issued the risky loans.

[AllTooEasy]

22. An American trait?

Oh, so it's just us. I guess overgeneralizing with ignorant, condescending views is a trait of whatever country you come from. The US gov't(Obama) wasn't stupid enough to loan Greece any money in the first place. Did your self-congratulatory, intellectually elitist, perfectly managed, and historically pure country loan Greece a dime?

I agree with your views on Greece. I wouldn't loan Greece a cigarette after the crap they pulled(financially lying to get into the Eurozone, defaulting twice on two debts, spending without legitimate(if any) plans to increase revenue, etc.), but the American bashing is uncalled for here. Nobody bashed your anonymous country for its current and historical failing in this discussions, because such talk is irrelevant to this subject. You were on the high road in this debate, and then you gave victory away with an overgeneralizing insult.

[leftynyc]

23. Really?

You think by using insults and bashing American citizens is the way to go? I would have thought someone who is still really a guest would have better manners but apparently not. How do you like the broad based insults when they're on the other foot?

[blackspade]

25. You do realize that Greece has a completely different government now?

And that it was the previous regime that indebted the nation and walked away with the debt 'relief' that has left the Greek people with nothing.
That is why the Sariza government came to power.
Predicting the behavior of a new government on the basis of the previous one's actions is ridiculous.

Here's hoping they go their own way. They face hard times, but at least they will be ones of their own choosing rather than perpetual serfdom to the banksters that the Troika offered.

[totodeinhere]

28. True, plus Greece owes that money to the Eurozone, not only Germany.

Germany has picked up a big portion of the tab in the past, but not all of it.

[fasttense]

32. 20% really? Germany was granted 50%

And Germany was the aggressor, destroying monuments, homes, murdering people and flattening infrastructure of most of Europe. Yet, despite all this destruction that Germany did, they were given huge debt relief.

I will point out this was the 2nd war Germany started. What assurance did anyone have that Germany would NOT just do it again? Did people really have faith in Germany's ability to NOT start another war?

And this ridiculous austerity attached to the loans, what stupid and petty demands. Sell off the infrastructure that makes Greece a nation, sell off the Greeks' history and survival utilities but NOT ONE DEMAND FOR PROSECUTION OF THE CORRUPT POLITICIANS AND BANKSTERS who fraudulent prepared and authorized the document by which they got the loans and got into the EU. If these demands were serious they would have demanded justice. But the demands are NOT serious, they are merely a means to line the pockets of the corporate elite.

[Surya Gayatri]

35. ^^^This!^^^

"...there is simply no faith in Greece doing what it says it will do - at every stage it has said it will tighten up its tax avoidance culture, its bloated civil service, its welfare state that it can't afford..."

They've not carried through on one pledge. Empty, blowhard posturing from their now ex-Finance Minister and their politically ambitious PM.

Tsipras has zero idea what to do next, as Greece slides further and further into the mire.

[jwirr]

6. Not to mention the fact that we helped them rebuild again. Greece needs the same kind of help

they go back then. But back then we actually believed in the Keynesian method of addressing disaster. Now we have the trickle down theory and to hell with helping the poorer countries.

[Igel]

10. Back then it was austerity + investment.

They build their social and economic capital. People didn't starve, but they didn't have large pensions, high salaries, long vacations. The Germans and others worked. They saved, to provide more capital. They took the money they were loaned and built things that increased productivity and produced money to pay back loans and yield more capital.

The way it works now is that for many investment is the opposite of austerity. We "invest" in long vacations, we invest in high salaries, we invest in high pensions and we invest in low productivity. Greece took much of their loans and "invested" it in on-going expenses. At the end, all they had was expenditures to show for their investment.

Not all public spending is investment any more than all private spending is. I invested in a pressure cooker; it will save me time and money. If I invest in a raised flower bed, I might get a bit of return when I sell the house. If I invest in filet mignon and English butter instead of chicken and Kroeger butter, there's no real payback that I can't achieve by simply altering my attitude. They're luxuries that I might afford, but they're just expenses.

When my employer "invests" in new tech to improve efficiency, it produces returns. When my employer "invests" in training us, it supposedly produces returns--employees who do a better job. If my employer invests in a $20k/year pay increase for us, it's not going to do much. Turnover isn't because of low pay; it's not like we're holding back 30% of our productivity and can release it when we're paid more. To call that an investment is to redefine the word. It may be a good thing, but it isn't an investment. (And, no, "happier employers" is not a return on investment unless morale is so low that there's significant turnover, not unless we've already redefined "investment" to mean "money spent." Most morale problems aren't from low pay but from manager-employee relations.)

[jwirr]

11. As I said - top down economics. And only the 1% profit from it. It is not the little people who

make these decisions.

The EU was set up for success and they did not have a plan for what is happening now. But more trickle down is not going to help. It has never helped. The benefits our Unions got here did not hurt the economy - instead it helped to build a strong middle class economy. So to blame the benefits that the people get from their jobs is not correct.

IMO the ones who gave risky loans and those who asked for those loans (Greek bankers) are to blame for this mess. Let them pay for it.

[fasttense]

33. Please provide a link to your claims that all the loan money was spent on retirements and vacations

I read that most of the loan money went to buying weapons and the tax evasion was rampant AMONG THE RICH, just like in the US. Yes some decent retirement pensions were allowed for government workers but many of those pensions were obtain by working in the mines in Germany.

No Country has ever gotten itself out of debt through austerity. All those European countries got out of debt by growing their economies not by forcing their economies into a Great Depression.

[Adrahil]

15. Greece should get the help, but...

it will take them restructuring how they finance their government. No more huge carve outs for some industries. They have to EFFECTIVELY collect taxes, and pension and retirement ages at levels consistent with what they are willing to tax at. If they want low retirement age, and high pensions, raise the taxes to support them.

"Helping" them does not mean just giving them a credit card with no plan.

[jwirr]

17. But what all you are ignoring is that helping by using austerity DOES NOT WORK. Yes they

have to restructure. And yes that includes the issues you mentioned but without getting their economy going again there is no help. Yesterday I read that one of the conditions in the EU deal was that they not raise taxes. If that is true then none of this is worth a thing. The rich need to pay their taxes. And as I have said in another thread that is what is happening all over the world. The 1% are not paying for anything anymore. The rich and the corporations win and the little people pay. Why is it that the rich and corporations don't have to suffer?

[Adrahil]

21. I didn't ignore any of that.

I said this:

"If they want low retirement age, and high pensions, raise the taxes to support them. "

Yeah... if you want robust social services, raise the taxes to support them. In the short term, you can, of course, run a deficit. And if they want to stimulate growth with massive public works projects, that works too. But they actually have to have a plan to getting to a sustainable budget.

Right now, even if they just cancelled all their debt, they have NO PLAN for getting to a sustainable budget.

I agree that austerity doesn't work. Neither does not having a plan.

Voting NO is not a plan.

[Surya Gayatri]

40. Voting NO is not a plan.

[hack89]

38. Greece was one of the first recipients of aid under the Marshall Plan

They received over $370 million dollars from 1948-51

[jwirr]

39. Interesting. Did it work for them then?

[hack89]

42. It is referred to as the Greek economic miracle

Greece's per-capita GDP grew quickly. Greece’s growth averaged 7% between 1950 and 1973, a rate second only to Japan's during the same period. In 1950 Greece was ranked 28th in the world for per capita GDP, while in 1970 it was ranked 20th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Greece_and_the_Greek_world#Post-World_War_II

Also, don't forget that Greece fought a civil war from 1944 to 1950.

[jwirr]

43. Thank you. IMO there should be a restructuring of the debt to make it payable. I would not

drop the debt totally. - If what I have read is true they were not totally honest about their entry into EU. So I would make them pay the debt but I would control interest and the size of the payment to make it doable.

Then we need to do what history says will work and that is not austerity.

[Adrahil]

14. Hey, let's throw in a little German hate too. Great idea. nt

[PoliticAverse]

27. After WWI countries were pretty serious about making Germany pay back debt/reparations...

I recall that didn't turn out well at all.

[Sunlei]

12. Germany tring to get out of war reparations they call 'aid'. Greece came under a tripartite occupati

Last edited Mon Jul 6, 2015, 01:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Greece came under a tripartite occupation.

?resize=350%2C200

[totodeinhere]

30. But Germany is not the only country that has aided Greece. Greece doesn't just owe Germany.

Yes Germany chipped in a big chunk of it but not all of it.

[Sunlei]

31. Greek people will catch up to the 'lenders and creditors'. It's a beautiful country with a...

very robust tourist industry.

[totodeinhere]

34. I don't deny that but that isn't my point. I am responding to the notion that

Germany should not expect Greece to pay them back since Greece forgave Germany's war debt. But the difference is that more than Germany are involved and Greece owes other countries as well. France is Greece's second largest creditor and France has not owed Greece any money in the past like Germany did.

[blackspade]

24. Well, that is a 360 from last week.

But not unexpected.

[PoliticAverse]

26. So "No means No". n/t

[magical thyme]

29. No *CURRENT* basis. Merkel called on Tsipras to make the next move because there is no consensus

among the EU countries on which to base talks.

But Merkel said there was no current basis for negotiating with the Greek side and called on Tsipras to make the next move.

As eurozone leaders prepared for today’s emergency summit in Brussels , the heads of government were at odds. France, Italy and Spain are impatient for a deal while Germany, the European commission and northern Europe seem content to let Greece stew andallow the euphoria following Sunday’s vote give way to the sobering realities of bank closures, cash shortages and isolation
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/06/greek-referendum-eu-leaders-call-crisis-meeting-as-bailout-rejected-live-updates

[truebrit71]

36. Germany has to make the Grexit as painful as possible so other countries aren't tempted to follow...

...

[Blue_Tires]

41. Well, it's not like the referendum victory

magically gave Greece some kind of new negotiating leverage... Once the celebration ended, they're right back where they were before the vote...