Greeks defy Europe with overwhelming 'No' to bailout referendum

[bemildred]

Source: Reuters

ATHENS - Greeks voted by a large margin to reject the austerity terms of an aid package from international creditors, an official projection of the final result of Sunday's referendum showed.

"The assessment of Singular Logic is that the result in favour of 'No' will exceed 61 percent," an official from Singular Logic, which processes the results for the interior ministry said.

Only 39 percent were estimated to have voted in favour.

The result would hand a big victory to Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who urged voters to say 'No' to an aid package he called a national "humiliation" and an "ultimatum" from creditors.



Read more: http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Greeks-defy-Europe-with-overwhelming-No-to-bailout-referendum-408080

[bemildred]

1. Greece defiantly rejects Europe's bailout offer, Athens says

ATHENS - A government-backed "no" in Greece's bailout referendum is set to win by 61 percent, according to an official projection by the country's Interior Ministry.

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras halted negotiations with creditors to hold the vote and seek a popular rejection of austerity measures. But European officials have warned a "no" vote could risk Greece's membership of the euro.

The vote on Sunday was about the country's financial future, choosing in a referendum whether to accept creditors' demands for more austerity in return for rescue loans or defiantly reject the deal.

The projected margin late Sunday was higher than originally indicated by polling date when the polls closed at 7 p.m. (1600 GMT).

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/greece-votes-no-on-euro-bailout-conditions-polls-indicate/

[bemildred]

2. Greece votes No

ATHENS — Greeks voted overwhelmingly Sunday to reject demands for spending cuts and economic reforms, a stunning victory for Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras that may put the debt-crippled country on course to leave the eurozone.

The No campaign was winning about 60 percent of the vote with 40 percent of sites reporting. Opinion polls in the days before voting had shown the two sides virtually neck-and-neck.

The country now faces a long list of political and economic challenges that will test its financial stability and determine its place in Europe.

The question posed to voters Sunday was whether they endorsed the budget cuts, tax increases and economic overhauls that creditors have demanded in exchange for aid. But the stakes of the vote were much larger, becoming a proxy for the country’s place in the euro and even in the European Union.

http://www.politico.eu/article/greece-votes-no-to-europe-bailout-debt-default-grexit-tsipras/

[Warren Stupidity]

3. I Salute the People of Greece! No to Austerity!

[bemildred]

4. The Latest: Thousands of Greek 'no' supporters celebrate

10:10 p.m.

Thousands of government supporters have gathered in celebration in Athens' main square, waving Greek flags and chanting "No, No" after returns show their side leading in Sunday's referendum.

Vendors have set up stalls to sell kebabs, sandwiches, whistles and Greek flags in Syntagma square in front of parliament.

Athens resident Yiannis Gkovesis, holding a large Greek flag, says "we don't want austerity measures anymore. This has been happening for the last five years and it has driven so many into poverty. We simply can't take any more austerity."

The 26-year-old Gkovesis says "if the Europeans really wanted Greece to stand on its feet, then they could have done so without imposing such harsh measures."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_BAILOUT_THE_LATEST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-07-05-14-34-14

[SunSeeker]

5. Hopefully the creditors will come back with a more sustainable aid package now. nt

[Morganfleeman]

11. Quite the opposite

Don't underestimate the groundswell of support for the notion that Greece should leave the Euro. The domestic politics of perpetual bailouts are difficult especially for Germans.

Greece will probably be out of the Eurozone in the next few days. If the ECB doesn't raise its emergency funding cap tomorrow (very unlikely they will raise it) banks will have no money within 24 hours. Banks will be insolvent and will force Greek government to create a parallel currency because there will be no money.

The Germans would probably want to create the conditions to force the Greek hand because they have no love for the current Greek government and right now the bailout is incredibly unpopular in germany

[sendero]

51. Exactly...

..... the troika needed Greece to buckle under. Now that they haven't, the only way to discourage Spain, Italy, Portugal etc from following in their path is to make things as horrible for Greece as they possibly can.

And they will. Still, this is the best option Greece had.

[candelista]

98. To discourage Spain, Portugal, Italy? Then it is economic terrorism.

The use of economic violence to inspire fear in other nations. Yanis Varoufakis used this expression the other day, but I don't know if this is what he meant.

[Ghost Dog]

110. This is exactly what he meant, yes.

In one interview published on Saturday, he accused the country’s creditors of terrorism:

“What they’re doing with Greece has a name: terrorism,” Varoufakis told Spain’s El Mundo. “What Brussels and the troika want today is for the yes [vote] to win so they could humiliate the Greeks. Why did they force us to close the banks? To instil fear in people. And spreading fear is called terrorism.

...

A short time before the post announcing his resignation, Varoufakis posted a much more jubilant note about the referendum decision:

On the 25th of January, dignity was restored to the people of Greece.

In the five months that intervened since then, we became the first government that dared raise its voice, speaking on behalf of the people, saying no to the damaging irrationality of our extend-and-pretend ‘Bailout Program’.

We:

- spread the word that the Greek ‘bailouts’ were exercises whose purpose was intentionally to transfer private losses onto the shoulders of the weakest Greeks, before being transferred to other European taxpayers
- articulated, for the first time in the Eurogroup, an economic argument to which there was no credible response
- put forward moderate, technically feasible proposals that would remove the need for further ‘bailouts’
- confined the troika to its Brussels’ lair
internationalised Greece’s humanitarian crisis and its roots in intentionally recessionary policies
- spread hope beyond Greece’s borders that democracy can breathe within a monetary union hitherto dominated by fear.

Ending interminable, self-defeating, austerity and restructuring Greece’s public debt were our two targets. But these two were also our creditors’ targets. From the moment our election seemed likely, last December, the powers-that-be started a bank run and planned, eventually, to shut Greece’s banks down. Their purpose?

/... http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/06/greek-referendum-eu-leaders-call-crisis-meeting-as-bailout-rejected-live-updates

[Yupster]

19. Isn't that what they used to call

"Throwing good money after bad?"

Why would a creditor loan you more money when you've shown no willingness to ever pay it back?

They can do other things with their money like loan it to people who can afford to pay it back, or even spend it themselves.

[SunSeeker]

24. I don't think Greeks have "shown no willingness to ever pay it back."

What is evident by this vote is that the Greeks will no longer put up with self-destructive austerity measures.

[Yupster]

28. If they continue to spend more than they take in year after year

then they will need new loans every year.

How does that ever get to repaying their debts?

Their debt will just get larger and larger each year and they already can't repay it. How will things be better next year when their debt is bigger.

[Vincardog]

30. Which is why they should quit taking bailouts that depress their economy and increase their debt,

Glad to see we agree!

[Yupster]

37. I agree

At 156 % of GDP, their debt is overwhelming. It won't be paid back. Another bail out is the last thing they need.

They need to renege on their debt, leave the Euro and start over.

That will still leave them with the same problem of spending more than they're making though so they're still going to have to make some tough choices.

[Vincardog]

41. Well if they jail the biggest Banksters to set an example; maybe they will get it right.

[AllTooEasy]

63. how would that help?

They borrowed money to pay pensions, infrastructure, social services, military, and government salaries/benefits. plus the bankers are foreign - no jurisdiction. Even if they could incarcerate them, they still have escalating debt and would need to borrow money from someone. Would you lend someone money who didn't pay back the last person, AND jailed them?

[Historic NY]

67. People don't seem to understand that.....

" Close to 25 per cent of Greeks were employed by the state, with pensions worthy of far, far richer nations, and leaders of civil unions enjoyed double or triple pensions for retiring at the age of 50. With 25 per cent of the electorate in his pocket for life, Papandreou then proceeded to nationalise industries, milk the EU treasury, and flirt with Middle East dictators."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3149640/Mimi-Big-T-s-buffoon-leaders-milked-EU-Taki-Theodoracopulos-veteran-Greek-commentator-spectator-columnist.html

Probably one of the best explanations I've heard short of a Greek - Turkish national I know.

He calls them all buffoons. His family still resides there and has business interests in Greece & Turkey.

[Cleita]

72. It seems that their 1% don't feel like they have to pay taxes, either which is one of the reasons

they can't pay their bills. They need to get revenue from the ultra rich in Greece and the foreign business interests to pay for things, but they can't seem to do it anymore that we can seem to do it. I'm all for austerity, but not for the poor and middle class. The only austerity that works is making the rich pay. Funny enough, they don't even miss the money even back in the days in the USA when they were paying 92% in taxes and we had a large middle class the rich still had their fancy cars, yachts, private jets and multiple mansions around the world.

[Historic NY]

80. Thats the other part of the thing which is referred to as "sport" in Greece eveyone is in on it.....

It isn't the 1% its the entire culture.... They under report income to avoid paying .

“Greeks consider taxes as theft,” said Aristides Hatzis, an associate professor of law and economics at the University of Athens. “Normally taxes are considered the price you have to pay for a just state, but this is not accepted by the Greek mentality.”

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-struggles-to-get-citizens-to-pay-their-taxes-1424867495

Professional and upper middle class distort income to avoid tax...

A lot has been made of tackling Greece's oligarch tax evaders, but there has been less discussion about cracking down on the white-collar, high-income professional classes that are really rinsing their country's tax system. If Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis wants to be successful in cracking down on tax evasion, these are the people he needs to put the screws on.

http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-reason-greece-has-a-massive-tax-evasion-problem-2015-2

[Cleita]

81. Yeah, I know, but that's because of centuries of being robbed in taxation by various invaders

and their own corrupt governments. I think there could be a way of turning this around if some smart people start thinking outside of the box. However, their 1% really don't think they should pay anything and I think it would be a good place to start. The 99% won't object.

[Igel]

91. One behavior,

two complementary reasons given for it. One indicts those we don't like and the other excuses it among those we do like.

Perhaps the explanation for requiring two reasons lies not so much in Greece as in our attitudes.

It's not paying taxes to invaders that was the problem. It was paying taxes when you didn't see that it was your place. The government doesn't do what you like, doesn't represent you, even oppresses you and takes more than its share, so you don't buy into it.

Notice, that holds for the top 1% and the bottom 20%. One behavior on the part of humans, one unifying set of self-justifications for it. The problem is we have trouble thinking of those not with us as being really human. They're cold, distant, manipulative, immoral, uncaring, etc., etc.--unlike us.

[Vincardog]

102. The Banksters from ShittyBank helped them hide debt to enter the ECM. The Banksters forecd them

to impose austerity measures that shank the economy by 25% and raised the debt.

The same banksters wan t to repeat the same drill increasing the debt at a raising rate on an unsustainable debt.


You don't see any advantage to making the Banksters pay some consequence?

That is how it would help.

[OnlinePoker]

107. I heard it was Goldman Sacks.

I'm sure the Greeks knew all the tricks to hiding money long before U.S. banks came along.

[Vincardog]

116. Right it was Goldman. The point is it was the Banksters who created and profited from the situation

Until the Banksters pay some price the situation will never change.

[SunSeeker]

31. The reason they're taking in less and less is austerity is crashing their economy. nt

[Igel]

92. So what crashed their economy before?

That's the rub. They needed loans because their economy was in trouble; but it's the loans that got their economy in trouble; so they need loans to get their economy out of trouble.

And on and on it goes.

[passiveporcupine]

32. you don't understand the old maxim

It takes money to make money? You cannot get blood from a turnip.

OK, so maybe two old maxims.

[Yupster]

42. He who hesitates is lost, but look before you leap

It takes money to make money would fit if they could convince the Euro that this one last loan would turn things around and they could start enjoying a surplus and start paying off their loans.

It's a tough choice small businessmen make all the time.

Do you sink every dollar you have into a failing business? When do you say stop? Many sink everything they have into it and work themselves to death and end up in bankruptcy anyway.

[passiveporcupine]

46. But this isn't a business

it's a country full of human beings who need to eat. We need to stop treating people like commodities.

[Yupster]

56. That's fine, but if you borrow

money, or ask someone to borrow their money, the lender is going to expect you to pay him back, regardless of how much good you did or didn't do with the money.

Why would anyone loan money to Greece at this point? Would there be any expectation that it would ever be paid back?

[passiveporcupine]

61. Humanitarian aid

only when it's offered by the IMF, it's a wolf in sheep's clothing.

There really is no point in discussing this with you because I get the feeling you cannot see the reason to help people in need.

[Yupster]

87. I'm all for charity

But a gift is not a loan.

[safeinOhio]

65. Use Iceland as your key as to what happens.

They didn't pay their's back, got out from under all the debt and are doing great.

Those were investments, not loans. All investments are gambles. The higher the returns(interest rates) the higher the risk. They bet and lost.

[cstanleytech]

96. Iceland doesnt or atleast it didnt recommend that Greece follow its example.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-06-15/greece-ireland-can-t-default-like-iceland

[JDPriestly]

40. They imposed austerity measures, but the economy shrank even more.

So imposing austerity, cutting pensions and public budgets, did not help the Greeks. That is the problem. The Greek people were asked to decide whether they want to continue the austerity solution which hasn't worked. They are if these reports are correct voting against the Troika-imposed austerity measures.

IF the austerity had worked, Greece would have had the surplus it hoped for of I think 1.8%.

[Yupster]

44. Austerity is always going to hurt

You run up a $ 100,000 bill on your credit card. It's going to hurt to pay it off. That's just the way it works.

[passiveporcupine]

49. I agree to a point

When the usury rates are too high and you are forced to take out a payday loan because your family is hungry and you can't find a job, you do sometimes end up in debt. There is a point even in this country, where we "excuse" that debt because we know it will never be paid back and we no longer believe in debtor prisons so people have to work it off till they die.

[JDPriestly]

52. The debt was run up by a corrupt government.

Remember how George W. Bush fought two wars while lowering taxes, thus running up America's debt?

It's easy for a corrupt, lying, cheating government like the one in Greece some years ago or the Bush II regime to run up a huge deficit that some subsequent government gets blamed for.

What is happening in Greece could happen here. We have a huge balance of payment deficit and have been unable to devalue our currency so that we can pay it off.

Greece will devalue its currency and deal with it from there. That will increase Greece's appeal to foreign tourists and increase the demand for its exports.

The Greek crisis is just another step on the downward sloping economic treadmill that "free" trade is causing.

Trade is great, but it needs to be done so as to wisely help countries increase their wealth. The way the world is doing trade with these crazy agreements like the Euro is destroying democratic, national identities and sovereignty and lowering the living standards in many countries.

[Yupster]

54. I think we agree

They need to renege on their debt, leave the Euro and start over.

That still isn't going to solve their basic problem that they spend more than they make though.

US debt limit is now at 106 % of our GDP. We're getting into dangerous ground ourselves.

[JDPriestly]

57. I agree.

This Paul Krugman article is interesting.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/austerity-arithmetic/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto&_r=1

[meow2u3]

64. The Greek austerity can be compared to a alcoholic father who ran up $100K in credit card debt

and stuck his poor kids --who can only find jobs that pay minimum wage-- with the bill, all under usurious terms more befitting a mafia loan shark.

[Yupster]

88. Sounds like they need to declare bankruptcy

and start over.

[bread_and_roses]

115. "Austerity" is people without medicine, heat -to pay off Banksters

It's crazy. All that suffering for one reason - to protect the profiteering vampire banksters.

Debt has been wiped out before and can and will be again. The world somehow rolls on, even if some useless rentiers lose their shirts.

[magical thyme]

48. the 2008 crisis caused us all problems. by 2010 Greece needed help

According to the IMF's own documents, the Greek debt had to be restructured for a recovery plan to be successful. The Troika *refused* to restructure the debt, instead forcing them to drastically cut their government spending, including jobs and pensions -- which obviously further damaged their economy -- in order to get loans that they could not possibly pay back with the damaged economy. And Germany pushed them to purchase military equipment they had no need for and couldn't afford, and subsequently has *refused* to let them cancel those contracts which represent a significant percentage of German military equipment sales.

And each year they have forced to to continue to do the same. Their debts continue to grow as a percentage of their GDP because the forced spending cuts shrink their GDP. And they are forced to pay for German military equipment they don't want or need (and that apparently didn't work anyway).

They aren't able to pay their debts because the Troika didn't intend to ever let them pay their debts. They deliberately destroyed their economy in order to privitize it. It's really that simple.

The secret IMF report, finally leaked last week, makes clear that they *knew* right from the get-go that without debt restructuring, Greece would be economically ruined. That was the plan.

[passiveporcupine]

50. you said it

They aren't able to pay their debts because the Troika didn't intend to ever let them pay their debts. They deliberately destroyed their economy in order to privitize it. It's really that simple.

Wherever the IMF is concerned, we know the people will be screwed.

[socialist_n_TN]

83. Yep. Third paragraph, second sentence......

The neo-liberal ideology in a nutshell. It's what they do.

[sendero]

53. Debt that cannot be repaid..

... will not be repaid. It's really that simple. In any other paradigm, Greece would be declared insolvent and the creditors would take a haircut.

In THIS situation the creditors are trying to force a situation that is impossible. NOBODY thinks Greece can EVER repay this money, the CREDITORS FUCKED UP and they are trying to avoid paying for their mistake.

[AllTooEasy]

68. in another pardigm...

...my personal paradigm with my creditors...the creditors confiscate your property. If I don't pay my mortgage, the bank takes my house. My car loan, the bank repossess my car. Business loan, my source of income. My booky, well...

Countries miss loan payments and all they get is a lower credit score and finger wagging.

[sendero]

75. This whole situation..

... is not as simple as simpletons want to make it but I don't have time to educate you, go do some reading for 10-20 hours and maybe you can figure it out.

You can start with "Confessions of an Economic Hit-man".

[cstanleytech]

93. True to a point but the debt does not need to grow much bigger itself if the lenders would agree to

set the interest rate to zero and give Greece a 10 - 20 year reprieve on having to begin repaying the balance that they owe with the condition of course that Greece getting its spending in line with what money it does take in by 2020.

[PaulaFarrell]

108. To keep their own banks solvent

I have been told that German banks are the biggest creditor. Germany might be forced top bail out its own banks.

[Kelvin Mace]

27. Unfortunately, now they will murder Greece economically,

as an example to other countries that might cross the ECB, like Italy, Ireland, Spain and Portugal. That's how loan sharks do business.

[Adrahil]

97. Maybe. But I bet not.

Until Greece shows the ability to establish a sustainable economy, I think many would see it as throwing good money after bad.

But in the end, I think the Greeks need to figure their own crap out. They need to actually collect taxes, avoid the massive corruption of the past, and get the economy growing. The imposed austerity regime was not working, so they need to try something different. When they can do that, the investors will return. But in the end, it has to be about building a sustainable economy, not propping up private banks.

[goldent]

105. I thought that Tsipras pretty much already gave into the EU demands

with some minor face-saving symbolic changes, at which point the EU said "too late, go have your referendum." I think the EU agrees to the deal but with a few of symbolic changes removed (just to make it clear who is in charge) and Greece stays in the EU another few months.

[Comrade Grumpy]

6. I'll bet people and politicians in Italy, Spain, Portugal are paying close attention.

The Greek people just sent a strong anti-austerity message to the EU.

[Yo_Mama]

18. They are, but Greece doesn't have the money to pay for imports

So it is not in a strong position.

If the Europeans refuse a further write-down of debt, then the Greeks will simply default, thereby sticking European countries with some pretty large bills. But Greece will then be utterly bankrupt, without means to pay for needed imports, and with no way to obtain hard currency to pay for them.

This is a rather serious situation, and the Germans will not deal because they can afford to take the Greek bust, but not the Italian write-down.

[Jeff Murdoch]

60. They are.

That is why Germany is going to force a complete failure of the Greek economy, possibly kicking the corpse out of the EU when they are done. A "Don't try it or this could be you" moment.
Some German politicians are already calling for this option.

[bemildred]

66. That may not send the message they want.

Since I oppose the EU, I hope they try to do exactly that. It should be quite a vision of democracy and "European values" before it is done.

[Deny and Shred]

69. I can't help but note the difference.

I believe you are correct, and the EU will draw a hard line to mitigate the contagion. They can't have the people of other economically troubled countries making similar decisions that buck the established system because there is a Greek precedent of relief.

Juxtapose this with the US banking sector in 2008, and we have exact opposites. When it hit the fan, the US banks were bailed out to the tune of 'any amount of liquidity you need, literally.' After trillions were loaned, US financial institutions are, very slowly, emerging from the 'zombie bank' situation that terrified Bernanke. We're left with 'too big to fail'. Its a dream come true ... for 0.01% of the population !!

Funny, but the US banks in the 2000's drew up their OWN terms and got into a heap of trouble. Many of these smaller countries had to accept unfavorable terms because of the fallout from the US banks in 2008. If only Tsirpas could get Paulson to come up with $700 billion in equity injections. Too bad they aren't the biggest economy on Earth.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

[goldent]

103. Who thinks Italy, Spain, Portugal are anywhere close to the Greek situation?

Just wondering

[TACFIRE13]

7. Ireland, Spain, Portugal

If they are smart, these countries will start threatening LaGarde and her loan shark crew with the same thing!

[SoapBox]

8. But, but, but...

The poor Banksters want their money!

[Morganfleeman]

9. Not sure what you're talking about

Because very little of Greek debt is in private hands anymore. The overwhelming majority of debt is held by the ECB and the IMF. Supranationals will take the losses here.

[jeff47]

10. The poor bankers already got their money. That's why Greece is in debt

Money was sent to Greece to be sent right back to French, German and other banks to bail out their bad loans, CDOs, etc.

Greece is no saint either. They had some problems too. But the huge debt crisis comes from the bubble bursting and Greece being left with bad private debts

[PoliticAverse]

12. No Greece got the banker's money that's what the debt was. The banks got paid back by the Troika.

The Troika has Greece's IOUs now.

[jeff47]

14. Nope. The Troika lent money to Greece to pay back European banks.

While the Troika also paid back the banks directly for some bad loans, the result of the Troika's work has been to turn a mountain of private debt into public debt. And then demand Greece make up for bad decisions made by French and German banks.

[PoliticAverse]

20. Greece was in debt to the bankers now they're in debt to the Troika, effectively the Troika

bailed out the bankers, as you say converting debt to private banks into debt to public institutions.

[Deny and Shred]

76. Pay the bondholders and CEOs

and saddle the taxpayers. Socialize the risks, privatize the profits.

USA, IMF, Rock, Flag & Eagle !!!

[LiberalArkie]

25. We have to think of the suffering hedge funders and banks. Greece may have forgiven Germany's WW2

debts, but to the banks that tells them that the Greeks are foolish people.

[Bosonic]

13. Germany's Gabriel says Tsipras has torn down last bridge of compromise

Germany's Gabriel says Tsipras has torn down last bridge of compromise

German Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel told the Tagesspiegel daily that it was hard to imagine talks on a new bailout programme with Greece after the country clearly rejected bailout terms in a referendum.

"With the rejection of the rules of the euro zone ... negotiations about a programme worth billions are barely conceivable," said Gabriel, leader of the Social Democrats (SPD) who share power with Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives.

"Tsipras and his government are leading the Greek people on a path of bitter abandonment and hopelessness," he said, adding Tsipras had "torn down the last bridges on which Greece and Europe could have moved towards a compromise".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/eurozone-greece-germany-gabriel-idUSB4N0Z800R20150705

[libdem4life]

15. Greece may have to reinvent civilization...yet again.

[Yupster]

21. Maybe Russia will be the cavalry

and ride in to the rescue at the last minute.

[libdem4life]

26. It's definitely been mentioned...maybe not rescue, but heavily influence and encourage the other

European countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal and even Ireland that there is more than starvation, imposed by The West. Part of Russia is Europe, as well. I saw the anacronym PIIGS...like BRIC...Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain.

[Yupster]

29. Maybe they can trade port rights

for a bailout.

They've always wanted access to the Mediterranean. This could be a cheap way of getting it.

[libdem4life]

33. Interesting thought. That would also result in Russians living in Greece, as ports always do...kind

of an exchange of culture. Vice versa, as well.

[Cleita]

82. Russians are actually closer in culture to Greeks as the Russians derived much of

their medieval culture from the Byzantine culture. Their religion, art and music are very similar. It might not be a bad thing.

[libdem4life]

84. That's true. The world is changing...I read the book Russka by Edward Rutherford...an amazing

look at the Russian culture through a fictitious family line from early A.D. to present ... weaving a story that told the history of the land and the people...masterful...he's a British historian. I'm going to read it again.

[Cleita]

86. That's what it's called, "Russka"?

Looks like a book I'd like to add to my reading list.

[Duckhunter935]

106. They had that arrangement

With Ukraine. Worked well for Russia. How many Russian speakers are in Greece that need protection.

[Hestia]

89. Wasn't part of the deal with the Troika that Greece Could Not work out a gas pipeline

deal with Russia? Absolutely verboten?

Reason being, Russian is back-dooring gas sales through Southern Europe, bypassing Finland, Norway, Germany, etc. (I can't remember who exactly this deal would screw just remember it is a Nordic state.)

[sadoldgirl]

16. It seems that the other members

of the Eurozone have become resigned to the Grexit,
and, as I understand it, do not fear anymore repercussions
from it.

Some of the poorer members resisted the request for
more loans as well. If anyone suffers from this it is
Merkel's dream of a strong Europe.

I wish the Greeks well and hope that they copy a bit
Iceland's example. On the other hand I fear that
Greece will refuse to leave the zone.

We shall see.

[bemildred]

17. It is a great day for the idea that a people can determine their own fate, by voting.

And it is classic in that vein for a leader to go back to the people for a new mandate when the original is brought into question.

Here is to Tsipras for having faith in his people, and to them for having faith in him.

[CountAllVotes]

22. Guts and backbone galore!

[AllTooEasy]

79. Good Luck with That!

Now Greece is broke, has escalating debt, no plan to increase revenue, no plan to decrease expenses, and no sane person willing to lend them money. That s what "guts and backbone" have done for the Greek people. Easy to praise this leader when you don't have to suffer his consequences.

[socialist_n_TN]

85. Unless you believe in a dictatorship of the bankers.........

We will ALL have to eventually suffer the consequences of this neo-liberal nightmare. Fuck the banks. Nationalize all the industries and run them under workers control and ESPECIALLY the businesses that deal with human welfare, food, shelter, transportation, healthcare, foreign trade, etc. Then work outward from there.

In an emergency situation like this, the only thing that counts is productive assets and NOT the numbers in a computer showing paper (or electronic) "wealth".

[candelista]

100. Your analysis has merit.

But tourism is Greece's main industry. It's going to take a while to recover. The public has to calm down there for this to work. Otherwise tourists won't come. As long as there is any hint of revolution, people won't buy tickets to Greece. But bringing about the worthwhile changes you recommend would require a revolution, which would thoroughly stop tourism.

That's why internationalism is so important on the left. Working people all over Europe need to support the Greek struggle.

[socialist_n_TN]

101. "Working people all over Europe need to support the Greek struggle"......

Yep. Greece cannot do it alone. If a country as big as Russia couldn't do it without international support, then Greece certainly can't.

[Cleita]

23. I might say good, but where do they go from here?

I really want them to tell the IMF and the other creditors to stuff it.

[bluestateguy]

34. 6 years of austerity has only made matters worse

The countries that practiced austerity are still struggling, the countries that did nor are recovering.

[Cleita]

73. It never does. It has failed everywhere it has been tried. n/t

[goldent]

104. They may have been better off to skip the voluntary austerity and go backrupt a few years back.

They might be in an early phase of recovery now rather then just be starting on a period of non-voluntary austerity.

[snot]

35. The BBC is going nuts with negative reaction – no pretense of objectivity.

London's a big banking town, of course.

[bemildred]

38. Yeah, hyperbole rules the day.

The Greeks are celebrating, meanwhile the Troika is filled with fear for them. Whom to believe?

Well, I do know that the Troika has been wrong over and over about what's good for Greece, so I'm going with the Greeks on this. If the Troika thinks it's bad, then probably the effect will be for the Greek economy to take off like a new Ford.

[Alameda]

36. Isn't a large part of the problem the interest on the loans?

usury IOW

[DonCoquixote]

39. Biggest mistake the Germans made

What no one mentions is that England and France both have strong forces ready to outright leave the EU. The conservatives just won the elections in the UK, and they are already talking about referendums to leave the EU. This is from the one nations that kept it's currency, and has been reluctant to embrace the Euro to begin with. In France, Marine le Pen has shown strong numbers thanks to her outright fascist stance against Muslims, and she had said she would bring back the Franc if elected. This will leave Germany as the main EU champion, which will sour the whole of Europe who will go "wait a minute, wasn't this whole exercise meant to stop the Germans from trying to take over Europe again?" You might as well call it a Fourth Reich at that point. And then, the Russians, who are truly sick and tried of Germany trying to make empires, will step in and offer countries like Greece, Italy and Spain good old fashioned support, just like Mother Russia used to make when she wore her Soviet uniforms. Add to this that Uncle Sam is too distracted to be as much of a counter, and frankly, he may decide "fuck it, I would rather focus on China." Then, London, Paris and Berlin will finally stop acting like Divas, and yield to the one power that has the muscle and will to unite Europe, and sadly, that will work out bad for us, as this would be the USSR on steroids.

[Yupster]

47. I think Germany has made bigger mistakes than this

I can name a bunch of them just from 1933-45.

[scscholar]

58. And, electing Hitler president by over 90% of the vote!

Technically, it was a vote to merge the presidency with the chancellorship, but the Germans were voting to make Hitler their president.

[Nye Bevan]

43. Well if one thing is going to make Merkel open her checkbook,

it's Greeks voting to reject a bailout offer that has been off the table since last Tuesday.

[DJ13]

45. Ooof

[bemildred]

55. The Latest: Tsipras Thanks Greeks for Making 'Brave Choice'

11:45 p.m.

Greece's prime minister says the "no" result in the bailout referendum shows that "democracy won't be blackmailed."

Alexis Tsipras says Greece is willing to return to talks, but "this time the issue of debt will be on the negotiating table."

He was speaking in a live TV address on Sunday after the government-backed "no" side won by a wide margin in the referendum.

Tsipras thanked Greeks for making "a very brave choice."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/07/05/world/europe/ap-eu-greece-bailout-the-latest-.html

[leveymg]

59. If all debtors followed suit and just said "No," it would turn the world upside down.

It would be the greatest revolution in history. Everyone could be part of this change.

[bemildred]

62. Well I think some debts should be paid and some should not.

The trick is knowing which is which.

(Examples of debts that ought not be repaid:
1.) Debts that cannot be paid, I can never repay my parents for all they did for me, they are dead.
2.) Debts that do great harm to the debtor in being paid, this is what bankruptcy is for.
3.) Debts that were not fairly and honestly contracted, those made to corrupt public officials by corrupt banks.)

PS: it appears to me all three of those fit the Greek case too.

[Travis_0004]

109. Not really

Debt is held by governments they could take the writeoff.

They could refuse to negotiate, and stop all new loans, wich forces greece to leave the Euro and print their own money (and probably need to aquire new debt at very high interest rates)

Greece would default, and it would sting a bit, but it would keep other countries in line.

[bemildred]

70. The Latest: Euro falls sharply on Greece referendum results

12:30 a.m.

The euro has fallen sharply as investors get a chance to react to the results of the Greek referendum.

The European currency slumped to $1.0993 late Sunday, when spot trading resumed, from $1.1110 late Friday.

Greeks have voted overwhelmingly against a proposal of economic reforms that Greece's creditors had offered in exchange for loans.

The win of the "no" vote puts Greece in uncharted waters and markedly increases the risks of the country falling out of the 19-country euro currency union.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GREECE_BAILOUT_THE_LATEST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-07-05-17-30-10

[bemildred]

71. PM Tsipras on NO Vote Win: Greece Returns to Negotiations Tomorrow

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras addressed the nation following the country’s unambiguous opposition to the international creditor’s’ proposed bailout deal, a stance which his administration has fully endorsed.

Tsipras labeled the referendum as a victory for the whole of Greece, as well as a clear sign that democracy cannot be intimidated, and pressed for unity among Greeks.

“Regardless of what you voted today, from now on we are all one. And it is our duty to do our best to overcome this crisis and elevate Greece again” he said.

Tsipras reiterated that today’s vote was not a question about Greece’s presence in the Eurozone but a question of what kind of Europe Greeks want. The mandate Greeks have given him is to strengthen the country’s negotiating position for a socially just deal with potential and to end the austerity cycle.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/05/tsipras-no-vote-win-greece-returns-to-negotiations-tomorrow/

[malthaussen]

74. So much for the polls that said it was too close to call.

Maybe they should actually talk to real people next time.

-- Mal

[bemildred]

78. I don't think they care about accuracy all that much.

Greek private media join forces against Tsipras

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/greek-private-media-join-forces-against-tsipras.aspx?pageID=449&nID=85000&NewsCatID=422

[malthaussen]

111. All I know is, I would like to have a job as a pundit.

Good hours, high pay, and apparently all you have to do is make shit up.

-- Mal

[bemildred]

112. Yeah, I could do that.

When I worked in defense, I knew lots of guys who did exactly that.

I'm starting to think these Eurocrats are in over their heads dealing with these Greeks.

[malthaussen]

113. In the final analysis...

... if Greece says "I'm not gonna pay and how are you gonna make me?" then the Eurocrats are left with no response. I doubt anyone is gonna start a war over it, since nobody involved has more than a token army. Economic sanctions? That sound you hear is me laughing.

-- Mal

[bemildred]

114. Yah. And I notice who is making the news, and who is doing the catching up. nt

[bemildred]

77. Now Europe Must Decide Whether to Make an Example of Greece

For years now, it has seemed to any reasonably informed outsider that something was going to have to give in Greece. You surely couldn’t have an economy in depression for five years and counting, in a democracy, without the people demanding a different approach, consequences be what they may.

Sunday, something gave.

The Greek citizens overwhelmingly voted “No,” rejecting the nation’s creditors’ bailout deal and rejecting continued austerity. It sets up what will be a defining period for Europe, no matter what happens next.

During the week leading up to the referendum, the left-wing Greek government argued that a no vote would offer them a stronger negotiating position in the latest round of talks with the creditors. That much was true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/upshot/now-europe-must-decide-whether-to-make-an-example-of-greece.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

[rdking647]

90. the big question is what does greece and europe do now

its very possible that the ECB has reached teh end of its patience with greece, right now the greek banks are being kept alive with ECB cash. if they pull that lifeline then the banks fail.

its very possible they do that. if not now then by july 20 when greece has another large payment due with no way to pay it.

realistically its not beyond the realm of possibility that the ECB basically writes off greece,making them go it on their own

without some kind of a bailout greece cant pay pensions or salaries much less make payments on its debt. thats just a simple fact of life

[Yupster]

94. Seems like they need to renege on their debts

Start printing drachmas and then they can pay their bills, at least internally with drachmas.

How they will buy food and energy with drachmas is more of a problem, but maybe not so bad. They won't be the first country top ever default on its debts.

[rdking647]

95. that is the probable route

a new drachma would be convertible to euros but probably at a 50% discount or more

[Babel_17]

99. The austerity program was ill conceived

A lot of people in this thread have mentioned some of the ways Greece has had trouble in collecting revenue. Imo it's important to remember how these past few decades of Greece receiving loans is perceived by the taxpayers and voters in the rest of Europe, especially Germany.

The incompetence of the lending authorities and the malfeasance of those giving advice and cover to the Greek government only count for so much to those voters and taxpayers. Year after year after year they heard how about how loaned money was spread about in a very imprudent manner.

These voters should know that their economy is buoyed up by the predominance of their banking system but, again, that only counts for so much to them. Their political leaders do see the larger picture but they too are exasperated by how poorly Greece has collected its taxes, and how lavishly the Greek economy seemed to have overindulged as the Greek government and banks promoted expansion.

Hopefully these voters/taxpayers will listen to the reasoned voices that implore them with arguments for helping Greece to get past its current economic contraction. And hopefully the Greek government quickly has its fill of playing chicken with the lenders and deals with putting out a budget that will manage with a reality based revenue stream, and with lenders who are demanding an end to giveaways.

The Greek government needs to win over more than just the Greek electorate, they also need to impress the electorates of those countries who would be on the hook for further loans.

If Greece and the lenders can can forge a budget that will allow for the Greek economy to expand then I hope the people of Europe endorse it. Chaos and war are what's really expensive, a series of bad loans is an order of magnitude easier to deal with.

I think there's a sense among the lenders that Greece needs to be primed with cash and credit in order to grow. But the mood of their electorates is pretty dour.

[DonCoquixote]

117. This can be a disaster

Especially as China and Russia could easily do what the US should have done, offer monmey in exchange for goodwill, what used to be called "soft power"