Speed the 150-year-old tortoise dies at San Diego Zoo

[Little Tich]

Source: Yahoo! News / AP

SAN DIEGO (AP) — One of San Diego's oldest residents has died.

The Los Angeles Times reports that the Galapagos tortoise known as Speed has been euthanized at an estimated age of more than 150 years.

Speed had been living at the San Diego Zoo since 1933. He was brought to California as part of an early effort to preserve the endangered species from the Volcan Cerro Azul Island of the Galapagos Islands, off Ecuador.

The massive tortoise had been in geriatric decline for some time. Keepers treated his arthritis and other maladies with medication, hydrotherapy, physical therapy and acupuncture.

Read more: https://www.yahoo.com/news/speed-150-old-tortoise-dies-san-diego-zoo-223444901.html

[rpannier]

1. 150 years is a long time

and Speed wasn't in good health
Still, sad that Speed has passed

[longship]

2. Acupuncture? Really?

I bet he really loved that.

Why are these people sticking needles in me?

Acupuncture is rubbish.

[restorefreedom]

3. actually it has shown some efficacy in studies for pain and other conditions

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26060503

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25660442

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26073163

edit: rip speed

[longship]

4. Nope. Click through to my link, above.

All acupuncture studies that show positive results have common traits.

* They are unblinded, which should condemn them outright.
* They show results that are no better than placebo, which should condemn them outright.
* If there is anything studies show is that it does not matter where one sticks the needles; it does not even matter if one sticks needles. In other words, acupuncture is a failed medical modality.
* Acupuncture is an invasive procedure. People are sticking actual needles into people. It is unethical to perform such a thing which shows absolutely no efficacy beyond placebo.

I will repeat my link to medical studies on acupuncture: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/

Acupuncture is utter rubbish.

There is no such thing as Xi. It is magical thinking, which is also rubbish. Remember, "Xi spelt backwards is crap." (Perry DeAngelis -- a skeptic of some note)

[restorefreedom]

5. did you look at my links?

the two human studies were blinded. and showed statistically significant differences

but people will believe what they wish to

[restorefreedom]

7. and the founder of sbm is a well known skeptic of pretty much everything

and who testifies for insurance companies.

hmm wonder where his allegience is?

[longship]

8. Steven Novella is an academic clinical neurologist.

Which means that he treats patients and teaches medical students to treat patients in his specialty, neurology. That means things like ALS. This academic clinical setting is where medical standards of care are developed. And that is why acupuncture is unethical. Any modality which has no gain beyond placebo is unethical to prescribe, especially when it involves invasively sticking needles into people.

I have listened to hundreds of hours of Dr. Steven Novella on his weekly podcast, The Skeptics Guide to the Universe. I have never, ever heard him shill for anything beyond good science, certainly not insurance companies. So you are either misinformed or you are outright lying.

He testifies for science based medicine, a terminology he coined.

Again, acupuncture is utter rubbish.

[restorefreedom]

10. you are free to look at the literature yourself

as to the efficacy of acupuncture. but given this nation's proclivity towards unnecessary surgeries for profit and an overdependence on prescription drugs for basically everything (even made up diseases), those are much more serious issues than some dr's refusing to accept the results of scientific studies that they don't like.

clearly we will not agree on acupuncture. but you can avoid it if you wish and i can utilize it if i wish.

[longship]

11. 1. It does not matter where you stick the needles.

2. It does not even matter if you stick needles.

These are what the best double blind acupuncture studies show.

The first falsifies the primary claim of acupuncture. If there are no meridian points, there is no Xi, and no reason to hypothesize any other magical mechanism, other than placebo. (Remember Perry DeAngelis: Xi spelled backwards is crap.)

The second demonstrates that merely pretending to stick needles is as effective as actually doing so.
That is what the research shows. That means actually sticking the needles is unethical, according to medical standards of care (something the woo-woo medicine folks apparently do not adhere to.)

Acupuncture is rubbish

[Capt.Rocky300]

12. You and I are always on the same page but..........

maybe this time not so much. I always thought acupuncture was total b.s.. I am, however, at a loss to explain why our orange tabby cat who has been with us for 16 years (he was a very sick stray who found me on a creeper under my airplane in our hanger at the local airport) has responded to acupuncture treatment so well. He has herpes amongst other maladies so my wife took him to a holistic vet to see if she could stop the perpetual sneezing, runny eyes and nose.

The vet sticks him in about 8 places and he's good for 2-3 weeks of no symptoms. When the symptoms start up again he gets the same treatment and he's fine for another 2-3 weeks. I don't understand how it works and I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it for myself on a regular basis.

[longship]

13. Anecdotal evidence is not evidential beyond a single case study.

And, of course, you cannot do the Schrodinger's cat experiment where your orange tabby is quantum mechanically split into one who receives the acupuncture and one who isn't.

My thinking is that the symptoms were self limiting. That is how it works. If one has a cold, doing nothing one will get better in a week. If one treats it with acupuncture one will get better in seven days.

And any vet who uses acupuncture is a utter quack and should lose their license to practice. That is what the science says. There is no plausible mechanism for Xi. And without Xi, acupuncture falls apart, as the best studies show.

[Capt.Rocky300]

14. He had constant symptoms....

for years which worsened in intensity as he aged. Antibiotics had limited success initially but after a couple years had no effect at all. Not until the acupuncture, which he has been receiving for three years, did the symptoms completely disappear for any length of time. And, it has been a repeated and predictable result for those three years.

My wife is an RN and a no nonsense modern day medical professional who acknowledges the obvious improvement following treatment. We tried this out of desperation to help him feel better and we have seen positive results.

I know it fails the scientific method but he goes from sneezing brown snot on the walls and floor before seeing the vet to no sneezing following acupuncture. And it lasts for up to three weeks before returning. It's hard to argue with consistant results repeated for three years.

[longship]

16. If it fails the scientific method, it fails as a hypothesis.

And, as I wrote, many diseases are self limiting, for instance the common cold which, no matter what your treatment, lasts the same number of days.

What you have fallen into is confirmation bias, the tendency to selectively believe facts one believes and dismiss facts which one does not.

But that is not how science works. One cannot use a single case to establish a new fact. That is why anecdotal evidence is rubbish, and why any such stories about acupuncture are equally rubbish.

When studied in a double blind method, the science unequivocally says:

1. It does matter where one sticks the needles. (So much for meridian points, i.e., Xi.)

2. It doesn't even matter if one sticks needles. (Tooth picks which do not penetrate but which feel the same, when disguised, have the same placebo effect, in other words, none whatsoever.)

So, not only does acupuncture have no plausible mechanism of action -- what the fuck is Xi? -- but the best studies show that acupuncture has not only no plausibility, it has no effect beyond placebo. And when one is poking needles into flesh, that would be an unethical modality for a physician to use.

Anyway, acupuncture is bollocks.

Or as Perry DeAngelis said: Remember Xi spelled backward is crap.

[The Second Stone]

25. Yes, you have fallen into confirmation bias

"What you have fallen into is confirmation bias, the tendency to selectively believe facts one believes and dismiss facts which one does not."

When it comes to acupuncture, you will dismiss all facts that are not from double blind studies, and those double blind studies that contradict your bias, you dismiss as flawed. Scientific method is a lot broader than double blind studies. It is the gold standard of the FDA's method for testing drugs, but it is not the only modality of scientific method. Gravity has not been tested double blind, but when you trip, you certainly fall to the ground because of gravity, anecdotal or not. You might want to read up on scientific method. Kuhn would be a good start.

[longship]

28. What is Qi?

Or Xi, or chi? (However it is spelled.)

What is it?

It is magical thinking. Basing a medical modality on magic is rubbish.

So not only is acupuncture rubbish, but the basis on which acupuncture rests is also rubbish.

And as the late Perry DeAngelis once said, Remember, Qi spelled backwards is crap.

[The Second Stone]

15. Yeah, just because it works for you doesn't mean that it works

If someone is in pain and uses a placebo drug or method that reduces the experience of pain in that person, then I'm in favor of placebos. Placebos are quite often more effective than nothing at all, and sometimes that is due to the placebo effect. So what.

Science is a great analytical tool, but scientific method in the abstract doesn't do anything. People in pain need relief. If acupuncture works, as it does for many, so what that science doesn't explain it.

[longship]

17. It is unethical for physicians to prescribe placebos.

The reason? Because a placebo is, scientifically, a null effect, in other words the same as doing nothing. But the placebo effect seems to help in non-specific symptoms, like the mere symptoms of life. Pain certainly is one of them. As are many others. But placebo medicine cannot cure disease.

It takes scientific methodology to determine which modalities are useful and which are not. The null hypothesis is doing nothing other than a physician/patient interaction, in other words a placebo. When all one has is a null hypothesis, one has nothing.

Acupuncture is rubbish.

[restorefreedom]

19. there are many professionals who disagree

that it is rubbish. both anecdotal and medical study have shown it to be effective. the study will continue, and in the meantime, those who do find it helpful can continue to receive it. and those who wish to wait for the results of further study or shun it outright are free to do so. but as long as there are thousands of unnecessary surgeries done every year, possibly millions of unnecessary prescriptions written, and millions spent on non evidence based tests just to get people rich, acupuncture is not going to go away based on the ethical argument. ask 100 people whether they would like back surgery or a simple acupuncture treatment. personally i would like to see a survey like that.

[longship]

27. Anecdotes are not evidence.

And unblinded studies are worthless. Acupuncture is rubbish.

Read about it here: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/

[restorefreedom]

29. the links i provided were of blinded studies

but as with most things, with time comes acceptance. medical marijuana is going through the same scrutiny right now. it has been effective against pain, seizures and chemo induced nausea but some will never accept it.

hyperbaric oxygen treatment was once thought of as quack medicine..now it is used in mainstream medical facilities.

these things take time is all....

edited for spelling

[longship]

30. But acupuncture is based on Qi. And Qi is magic woo-woo.

And how in the Sam Hell does anybody know the meridian points on a tortoise? Or on a human for that matter?

Acupuncture is rubbish because it is based on rubbish.

[restorefreedom]

31. that is your opinion and you are free to have it

i was just pointing out that things come to acceptance over time. things that are often initially dismissed are proven later to work. 10 or 20 years from now the discussions about acupuncture will likely be very different. or, as the evidence keeps coming in, may not be discussed at all anymore. in the meantime, you are free to ignore it and not pursue it as a treatment. but for the people for whom it has worked, i am glad they have the option.

[longship]

33. Time will not help Qi becoming real.

And the thousands of acupuncture trials show:

1. It does not matter where you stick the needles. Oopsie! What about the meridians and Qi?

2. It doesn't even matter if you stick in needles. This is consistent with placebo effect, which both blinded and unblinded trials clearly show.

First, it has no plausibility because Qi does not exist. Second, results consistently show that it is equivalent to placebo effect. So, as an invasive procedure with no significant positive results, one must presume the null hypothesis that acupuncture does not work. As it is an invasive procedure -- there are needles stuck into the body -- it is unethical to use it. It's that nasty first do no harm thingie that seems to so often plague so-called alternative medicine.

But the true believers will still support it, and quacks will take advantage of that fact. They will apparently even charge zoos to treat tortoises. Where is the medical book on Qi meridians in tortoises? That's right. It does not exist. And neither does efficacy in acupuncture.

[restorefreedom]

34. again, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it

i and many others disagree.

the only reason i looked at this thread to begin with is because of the death of speed the tortoise.

so again, rip speed

[longship]

35. Indeed, RIP Speed.

Thanks for the discussion.

My regards.

[restorefreedom]

39. same here

[Cal33]

20. Acupuncture was introduced here from China some 50 years ago, and it was

looked upon with skepticism, and mostly ignored. Today, many colleges
offer acupuncture courses here. You may call it rubbish if you like, but it
has become a part of alternative medicine.

http://www.thebestschools.org/blog/2012/09/11/10-acupuncture-schools-u-s/

[longship]

26. There is no alternative medicine. There is only medicine, based on science.

The science clearly shows acupuncture to be utter tosh. Placebos do not cure disease, no matter what quacks are teaching.

[Cal33]

42. Acupuncture is limited to certain types of ailments. It's not a cure-all for everything. It

works on animals. And animals are not capable of having a placebo effect.

[The Second Stone]

24. There is no scientific study conducted in a double blind manner

that proves placebos have no effect. Now science can be conducted without double blind studies. The laws of motion and thermodynamics were not tested on subjects against other methods. But they still work.

[Cal33]

46. Do you really believe all these colleges would be offering the courses (with Masters and

Ph.D.s) without having done double-blind studies? A double-blind test is one of the
most basic requirements in science. Think again!

[LanternWaste]

45. hang the flag of rubbish on the shell of a dead tortoise to better illustrate how clever we are...

Let's hang the flag of rubbish on the shell of a dead tortoise to better illustrate how clever we really area... because it's actually relevant to... something in the story.

Or something like that.

[tclambert]

6. He died because his lady friend's husband came home early.

This story needs a more dramatic reason for his death, not just old age. Like, he died in a skateboarding accident. Or while mountain climbing. Or because a frog dared him to try to cross a busy highway.

[randome]

47. Maybe he ran one race too many.

Champions need to know when to retire.


[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[2naSalit]

9. How Sad!

I remember seeing him 40 years ago and hoping he'd outlive all the assholes in human form... maybe he didn't want to be here living in a zoo anymore.

[SnakeEyes]

37. If he hadn't wanted to live in a zoo

he'd probably be dead already. These animals, while they can live 100+ years in the wild, they do not live as long as those in captivity. Something that is not always true of other species.

[Codeine]

18. I was allowed to hand-feed him once.

Tortoises are magnificent creatures. The world is a little bit less without him.

[Brother Buzz]

22. Pfft, I was allowed to ride Speed....

or one of his buddies back in the fifties. What the Hell was the zoo thinking?

[Codeine]

38. Probably something along the lines of

"Let's give this kid something to remember for the rest of his life." One doubts the tortoise cared much -- they're the most unflappable creatures on Earth.

Lucky!!

[dhill926]

23. he had a good um...walk....

[Liberal_in_LA]

32. ..

[suffragette]

36. Years ago, I saw two of the tortoises at the San Diego zoo 'enjoy a moment'

It started with a bit of slow-motion catch-me-if-you-can chase, then proceeded to some thunk-a-thunk-a action.

Don't know if Speedy was the lucky male or not.

Regardless, RIP Speedy.

[Bette Noir]

40. I saw two of the big tortoises mating, too.

It was about 36 years ago. They were already "in the act" when the zoo opened at 9 am, and were still going at it hot and heavy when the zoo closed, eight hours later. Galapagos tortoises are very thorough.

[suffragette]

44. This was @ 25 years ago.

It was at the end of the day.
We'd taken a trip down there and had been running late all day, but still went even though it was close to closing time.
Many of the animals were tucked away for the night, except for the chickens which were everywhere, both inside and out of the exhibits. We spent much of our walk joking about the name of exhibit/chicken since the chickens were the only animals strutting around in many otherwise unoccupied exhibits. One exotic rooster attached himself to my (now ex)husband and followed us through most of the zoo.
So, we just saw the start of the courtship and mating.
They were still going at it when we left.

[Calista241]

41. I wonder how he got the name Speed.

RIP buddy!

[raccoon]

43. Speed would've been born about 1865. I mean, hatched. nt