Every S.C. Statehouse Flag Is at Half Staff--Except the Confederate One
Source: Gawker
While the U.S. and South Carolina state flags that fly above the South Carolina state house were lowered to half-mast today in mourning for the nine victims of last night’s shooting at a historic black church in Charleston, the Confederate flag on display outside the building is still flying high and proud. Why? Because the bizarre display of racist symbolism is so closely protected that it would be impossible to move it without a legislative vote.
According to Raycom Media reporter Will Whitson, the continued display is something of a technical issue: it’s affixed to the top of the flagpole, not on a pulley, meaning that it would be difficult if not impossible to lower it halfway without taking it down altogether—a proposition that presents its own set of problems. State law demands that the government “ensure that the flags authorized above shall be placed at all times as directed in this section and shall replace the flags at appropriate intervals as may be necessary due to wear,” writes Schuyler Kropf at the Post and Courier. In other words, the flag can’t be pulled down until it’s voted on.
The state of South Carolina so reveres the memory of its armed defense of American slavery that lowering the Confederate Battle Flag that flies at full staff outside of its state house would require an official act of government—even after a racist murderer killed a state lawmaker and eight other residents in cold blood.
Read more: http://gawker.com/every-s-c-statehouse-flag-is-at-half-staff-except-the-1712358244?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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uppityperson
(115,677 posts)
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Who make a name for themselves with a snapshot of that craziness.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)Eom
thecrow
(5,519 posts)Just cynical, I guess.
csziggy
(34,136 posts)And lower it permanently - as should have happened for good one hundred and fifty years ago.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Sorry, just frustrated at these guys. And I grew up in a state with a state holiday for Jefferson effing Davis's birthday. Oh, I know these types.
But they didn't dare fly the effing Confederate flag, even though it was on the back window of many pick up trucks. Sort of a youthful rebellion thing. I didn't find it funny.
The war to own slaves and keep women barefoot and pregnant was lost by the side that deserved to lose. That should have been the end of it, but they've lied about it ever since.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)isn't that a serious breach of flag protocol? I seem to recall that NO flag is to be flown high than the US flag.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)
gelsdorf
(240 posts)I call bullshit!
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Through the UN can fly the UN flag over the US Flag as per tradition since 1945
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/7:
4 US Code Section 7 (c)
(c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof: Provided, That nothing in this section shall make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of superior prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions of equal prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United States at the headquarters of the United Nations.
Please note there is NO PUNISHMENT for violation of the US Flag Code, thus it is only a guideline not a legal requirement.
Both exceptions have a long tradition in the US. In the case of the Navy, it was a tradition inherited from the British Navy during the Revolution. In the case of the UN, long practice by the time the Flag Code was adopted in 1959.
Fla Dem
(23,694 posts)flag pole at the top of the dome of the state house.
unblock
(52,261 posts)the confederate flag should be in the sewer, of course, so no violation of the flag code if that's the case!
come to think of it, i would expect flying the confederate battle flag to be forbidden by at least one of the agreements that ended the civil war. i mean, isn't that part of what it means to surrender? oh, yeah, i forgot. they never really surrendered....
sarge43
(28,941 posts)
onenote
(42,715 posts)alongside a US flag flown at half-staff.
But, I believe, state flags are supposed to be lowered if on the same flagpole or a flag pole adjacent to the US flag being flown at half staff.
If, as has been suggested, the confederate flag is on a stand alone pole not adjacent to the US flag pole, the flag code doesn't require it to be lowered to half-staff.
neeksgeek
(1,214 posts)Not an empty threat: I live a few miles from the border in Charlotte, NC.
They must be so proud of themselves.
erronis
(15,306 posts)
wordpix
(18,652 posts)I did want to visit Charleston but now forget it
navarth
(5,927 posts)I feel really bad for the good people that live in S.C. The rest of them....assholes. They disgrace our country, our species and our world.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Whether it is flying half staff or not. It has no business on any government property.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)
Orsino
(37,428 posts)SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)Midnight Writer
(21,770 posts)
Mr.Bill
(24,304 posts)is a white one.
ga_girl
(183 posts)Google "south carolina capitol confederate flag" and look at the images. That flag is on a internal halyard system. It can be lowered.
Prefer not to inline the image, but you can fix the url if desired.
http://w w w.postandcourier.com/storyimage/CP/20141001/PC1603/141009948/EP/1/1/EP-141009948.jpg&Maxw=620&q=85
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)
calimary
(81,332 posts)Glad you're here. Such a heavy day.
Okay, this is weird to bring up, but I am now thinking about ronald reagan. In a positive context. I remember the ONE thing he said that I agreed with. I forget the context but his comment was about how, if the Earth was suddenly facing an invasion of space aliens, all of a sudden we'd all unite. We'd all share the same common enemy and we'd probably band together everywhere just to defeat those invaders. Funny, I thought that made perfect sense.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)and I wouldn't know what I was looking for, but it defies logic that a flag would be put at the top of a pole like that without a halyard. What would that imply? That they had a *really* tall ladder? They hung it with a helicopter? They have a skyhook?
sarge43
(28,941 posts)Even days of national mourning, like Memorial Day?
That passes the porcelain test; it's a crock
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Leading to a good question:
What have they been doing with it on previous days when the other flags were at half staff? Some intrepid reporter needs to find out.
onenote
(42,715 posts)the US and state flags were lowered to half-mast in SC, but the Confederate flag at the capitol was not lowered. Can't find a link to confirm.
So it looks like it really is firmly affixed to the top, and "protected" by law. What a bunch of jerks the people must have been who set this up.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)TNNurse
(6,927 posts)posted by great-great granddaughter of a Confederate veteran.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)when he and his friend walked home for his dad's funeral. They shot his friend, put Grandpa Robert in prison in New Orleans where he escaped and hid in southern Illinois for the rest of the war. He went to Missouri, Johnson County, packed a conestoga wagon with his parents, everyone else and went to Oregon. They never talked about it. They taught the family to be good to everyone. My mother thought her family was union from the way she was raised to feel and act. She was shocked to be 'Suth-run'.
If my family could find the shame and redeem themselves so can every one else. Fuck the confederacy and everyone out there who wants to make it better than it was. It was about keeping the wealthy's slaves and their financial future intact.
My family, same one, came from 'Carolina' when it was one state in the 1600's to migrate west. I would love to go back to see the farms which are still there but not now. Probably not ever. I don't have the fire to do it when this shit won't die.
Thank you, Grandpa Robert Alonzo Paxton for having the grit to get out.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)I'm so sick of these backward states pulling the rest of the country into the stone age.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)
Harriety
(298 posts)
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)Stars and Bars = the Flag of Hate.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)(except in a museum) is a bigot.
erronis
(15,306 posts)First ten tries might miss and hit the statehouse. Keep on trying until that damned flag is bespattered.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)calimary
(81,332 posts)Those flags way up there look impossible to reach.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)brutality that lies behind the act of not lowering the Confederate Flag. Those that engineered the law that requires legislative action, know exactly what they are doing and are doubtlessly thrilled to be in such a prime position of defiance, for all to see.
This raw racism and anti-American thinking is coming for the very core of their dark cruel hearts. Those who are afflicted with this sickness can never be cured. They can only die off. Hopefully, not all of their children will follow in their footsteps.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It is the symbol of armed revolt.
It is an insult to all who died in the Civil War that that flag flies in that location in South Carolina.
It is an insult to every soldier who fought for our country in the wars after the Civil War.
South Caroline needs to decide whether it wants the advantages of being a member of the US or not. That flag is an insult above all to the people of the US.
yardwork
(61,663 posts)
world wide wally
(21,745 posts)
Submariner
(12,504 posts)The ancestors of the confederate veteran traitors are still pissed they lost the Civil War. Grow the f*** up!
Duppers
(28,125 posts)It represents racism and treason and it should be banned.
Augiedog
(2,548 posts)Treason to humanity, hate and death. Anyone who defends the confederate symbol of treason to America is no better than the scum that originally created the flag. Perhaps General Sherman left some official war business incomplete.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)Augiedog
(2,548 posts)After you double lock yourself in yer bunker and duck tape your AR magazines together and feed yer pit bull a side o beef you can watch John Stewart's monologue (that's a little speech) on the South Carolina church shooting....he must be really ignorant too.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Gloria
(17,663 posts)I hear that Gov Nikki H. is up for reelection, so will NOT see any "leadership" on this, let alone simple human DECENCY, a word foreign to the GOP!!!!
SCantiGOP
(13,871 posts)I'm afraid her next goal is Washington DC. I've warned people of her for years- she is a smart and politically savvy version of Sarah Palin.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Take it down.
Novara
(5,844 posts)now is it, goddammit. Take the fucker down and then deal with the fallout. To leave it up, using some back-assed legislation as the fucking excuse is to condone the racism and hate that damn thing stands for. And it is to disrespect every victim of last night's rampage.
marble falls
(57,114 posts)wcmagumba
(2,886 posts)a flaming arrow?
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)
Telcontar
(660 posts)I think the NAACP should adopt it as their own symbol. Call it cultural reparations.
Just imagine a roll out campaign that encourages folks to buy Confederate flag meorabelia to fund scholarships, institutions, vote drive efforts. Spread the word far and wide that flying the rag...err, flag means standing in solidarity with the NAACP and is a banner for equal rights.
I bet rednecks would be scrapi g stickers off the back of their pickups within a month.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)"The power to tax is the power to destroy". Congress could pass a law that says
This is the Symbol of Rebellion Taxation Act.
(a) Definitions:
1. "Confederate Battle Flag" includes ANY Flag or Pennant that is on cloth, wood, plastic, metal or any surface that contains a Symbol of any group that had been in war or Rebellion Against the United States OR had participated in Violence where such symbol was used as an identifying symbol. This includes what is commonly called the "Confederate Battle Flag" and the "Confederate Naval Jack".
2. Transfer: Transfer includes manufacturing, sewing, making, selling, giving away, loaning, leaning, drawing, renting, leasing, or any other transfer of a "Confederate Battle Flag" between people. This includes making such symbol for one's own use.
3. Taxing Agency: Such be the US Postal Service OR any other designated agency designated by the US Treasury.
4. "Possessor of "Confederate Battle Flag": Means whoever has present possession of such "Confederate Battle Flag". Such a person may NOT be the "Owner" of such "Confederate Battle Flag".
(b) Any person upon Transfer of any "Confederate Battle Flag", shall pay a tax of $1000.
(c) Any person may file an action to force payment of the above tax by filing a claim, at no cost, with any Federal District Court which has jurisdiction over any part of any transfer of a "Confederate Battle Flag".
(d) Upon any filing under subsection (c) the Court SHALL send a US Marshall or other official to confiscate such "Confederate Battle Flag". Such US Marshall or other official shall confiscate such "Confederate Battle Flag" UNLESS such "Confederate Battle Flag" has a stamp on it post that fulfills the requirements of subsection "e" below.
(e). Upon payment of the tax on transfer of any "Confederate Battle Flag", the taxing agency shall put a stamp in the pole of the "Confederate Battle Flag" or the flag itself, OR if that is NOT possible, give the stamp to the person who is paying the tax. Such stamp MUST be on a pole or the flag itself where ever such flag is displayed or within three feet of such flag in a place and position where it can readily been seen.
(f) The stamp shall contain the name, address and phone number of the present possessor of the "Confederate Battle Flag". If such person is not around such "Confederate Battle Flag", the law shall assume the "Confederate Battle Flag" is either abandoned OR been transferred without payment of the tax required under this law.
(g). Any US Marshall or other Federal, State or local Law Enforcement officer, judge, Justice of the Peace or other Judicial person has the power to confiscate any "Confederate Battle Flag" that clearly does NOT have a Stamp on or near it OR if such "Confederate Battle Flag" has such a Stamp, the possessor of the "Confederate Battle Flag" can NOT be located. If the Possessor of the "Confederate Battle Flag" can be located but can NOT return to where the "Confederate Battle Flag" is within 30 minutes of being contacted, such flag is deemed abandoned and must be destroyed.
Telcontar
(660 posts)Seems you could use that precedent against a host of movements the government might not like. What about taxing political rallies or protest banners? Not sure you could sageguard against mission creep
onenote
(42,715 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Article 1, section 8 reads as follows:
Newspapers have been taxed, Churches have been taxed, my proposed law would just TAX such flags and other symbols of rebellion against the US. You can still fly them, you just have to pay a tax every time such flag is transferred.
Furthermore you have Section 4 of the 14th Amendment:
Basically, Section 4 of the 14th makes any debts related to any rebellion VOID and based on that principal, anything related to any armed rebellion can be BANNED for that was the purpose of Section 4 of the 14th amendment and thus a HUGE exception to the First Amendment.
In Bailey v. Drexel Furniture Company, 259 U.S. 20, the US Supreme Court ruled that when a tax is made and it is clearly a tax, it is valid as long as it is uniformly imposed and it is clearly designed to rasie revenue:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/259/20
Now, in Bailey, the court ruled a TAX on companies that employed teenage workers was unconstitutional for it was clear the tax was NOT a tax but an attempt to ban child labor, something the court in 1922 said was reserved to the States. Congress could NOT use the power to tax to regulate UNLESS it is clear Congress also wanted to money for general funding purposes (in Bailey the "tax" went to the department of labor NOT the Treasury).
Bailey is considered of limited use today, subsequent tax laws on items have been upheld even when such tax laws are clearly confiscatory (for example the 1938 $200 transfer tax on automatic weapons, $200 when it cost $30 to buy a rifle and you could buy breakfast for 25 cents).
http://www.paper-dragon.com/1939/priceguide.html
Thus the power to tax is almost absolute and has long been held a power of Congress.
onenote
(42,715 posts)Sorry, but the power to tax may be "almost absolute" but it has long been held to be limited when it places a disproportionate impact on protected speech, which is exactly what your proposal would do. Indeed, the taxes struck down in those two cases were more ostensibly content neutral (being tied not to the speaker's content but to revenues and/or circulation).
Your proposal has as much chance of surviving first amendment scrutiny as a propsal to impose a tax on news programs that don't have the word "Fox" in the title.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)That case basically said the while the power to tax is absolute, you can NOT set up a tax system that has a huge effect on the media, but a lesser effect on other parts of the economy. The Court then cites and qualifies Grosjean v. American Press Co., 297 U.S. 233 (1936) and says that ruling did NOT apply to MINNEAPOLIS STAR v. MINNESOTA COMM'R OF REVENUE, on the grounds Grosjean, it was clear that the tax was an attack on hostile newspapers to Huey Long, and Huey Long had used his control over the State Legislature to attack such hostile newspapers:
See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/460/575.html#sthash.7Xz0W95F.dpuf
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/297/233.html
MINNEAPOLIS STAR v. MINNESOTA COMM'R OF REVENUE, the Court concern had to do with the fact that the legislature had passed a tax that affect large newspapers only, while exempting smaller papers AND the exemption for smaller newspapers did not exist for other economic areas. i.e. Small Newspapers did not have to pay the tax, but even smaller businesses had to pay the tax.
This disparately in treatment was the problem, NOT the power to tax. Had the state legislature just passed a universal tax with no exemption for smaller papers, the court would have upheld such a tax (or in the alternative, passed a similar exemptions for other small businesses, so that it is clear the tax is aimed at large business in general NOT just a Newspaper). That is the ruling in that case, a very restrictive ruling limited to the media itself NOT acts outside of the media.
Now, if you had mentioned the flag burning case, you would have had a better argument. In that case the Court upheld the right to burn an American flag against state laws that forbid such burning. That was a ruling based on ACTIONS not media (i.e. no speech or writing or broadcasting of comments, but the ACT of burning a flag). In Texas vs Johnson the Court ruled that burning a flag was speech, the dissent said no.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/491/397
My proposal works around that ruling by saying all the Government is doing is taxing such symbols, and restricting such tax to symbols used in ARMED REBELLION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES. You could still make such a symbol, but you would have to pay a tax whenever you do. It would treat all such symbols as taxable, it would not be limited to Confederate flags, but any symbol used in any armed rebellion against the US. It is both limited and broad. It is limited to a class of symbols that was used AGAINST the US, and board in that it includes ALL such symbols. Furthermore, if you are willing to pay the tax, you can still use such symbols.
You should read those decisions, the more important one is Texas vs Johnson, for if you use it, a court could rule that the propose tax could restrict symbolic speech. The defense would be ALL Tax does that to a degree and thus the tax on Confederate flags would be just a tax. The purpose of the tax is to raise revenue on objects that have been used AGAINST the US. The court has long ruled the US Constitution is NOT a "Suicide Pact" and thus this is a reasonable method to raise revenue at the expense of people who oppose the Government of the United States.
sanatanadharma
(3,707 posts)...the flag defenders say, and they are right.
The flag is a symbol of the heritage of treason, of taking up arms against the United States of America.
However, it is fact that in the 150 years since then, it has been used as the war-banner for a multi-generation long hatred of the former slaves and of those who fighting freed the slaves (the north).
olddots
(10,237 posts)don't ever think people have progressed just because of technology .
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)At least according to the FB page SC chapter of Sons of Confederate Veterans.
I exchanged a few thoughts with a member and after initially being really defensive he really seemed to grasp what I was saying and how insensitive it was.
Anyway their FB page says they are working with the statehouse to get it lowered.
I would like to see it behind glass as well.
But baby steps sometimes.
You get more with diplomacy than shouting.
No one listens when you are shouting.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)The only place for this flag is in a museum.
It is the symbol of not only slavery but treason as well.
repulsive.
