Reports: Shooting in downtown Charleston, S.C., leaves at least 8 dead

[NRaleighLiberal]

Source: USA Today

CHARLESTON, S.C. — A shooting in downtown Charleston has resulted in fatalities, police there confirm. At least eight people are dead, according to reports on social media.

The shooting took place at about 9 p.m. ET, Charleston police said via Twitter. The gunman is still on the loose, police told the Charleston Post and Courier.

The FBI and chaplains were on the scene, Post and Courier reporter Melissa Boughton tweeted.

The police department via Twitter released an address that matches that of Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.

more at the link - breaking, developing story

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/06/17/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/28902017/

[shenmue]

1. Awful

[valerief]

2. Thank heavens his god-given second amendment right wasn't taken away.

[seveneyes]

17. Thank allah he did not understand chemistry

Else he could have blown up the whole fucking town.

[pablo_marmol]

101. Stay classy.

Politicizing this tragedy right out of the gate.

[yodermon]

144. Yep, just like Australia did n/t

[CTyankee]

145. Yes, they just got fed up with gun violence and decided ENOUGH...

you have to start somewhere...

[pablo_marmol]

157. So what?! They didn't get the results that have been dishonestly claimed.

"The claims about Australian gun control were circulating as far back as 2001, when Snopes.com went over them and concluded that they were a "small, mixed grab bag of short-term statistics" signifying little. So there’s no consensus about whether the changes decreased gun violence or had little to no effect."

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/gun-control-in-australia/

http://www.ssaa.org.au/capital-news/2008/2008-09-04_melbourne-uni-paper-Aust-gun-buyback.pdf


http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/22/1090464799535.html?oneclick=true

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/jeweller-angelos-koots-admits-to-making-submachine-guns-at-his-seven-hills-home-and-supplying-them-to-bikie-groups/story-fni0cx12-1226760983916

Also -- the Australia/U.S. comparison is specious on its face, since the type of draconian measures that Australia took wouldn't stand a chance of gaining the same level of public support in the U.S.

[CTyankee]

168. well, those stupid Aussies! They haven't repealed those laws and become good gun

loving people again! Silly them! You'd think they'd have learned and said "ENOUGH!"

Why is that?

[pablo_marmol]

169. Who cares what they do? It's apples and oranges as I've already pointed out.

If you actually gave a damn about the victims of gun violence you'd be interested in reading the book that won liberal criminologist Gary Kleck the highest award bestowed by the American Society of criminology. In Targeting Guns Kleck points out the specious nature of international comparisons w/regard to the gun restriction/gun rights debate.

But of course confronting your biases really isn't your strong suit, is it? You're not the least bit interested in what highly credentialed liberal criminologists like James Wright, Peter Rossi, David Bordua and Gary Kleck have to say. F them! You know better! The hubris and dishonesty astonishes!

http://www.amazon.com/Targeting-Guns-Firearms-Control-Institutions/dp/0202305694/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434874910&sr=1-1&keywords=targeting+guns+firearms+and+their+control

[CTyankee]

173. still trotting gary kleck out?! This time as a liberal?

I've been seeing him for YEARS used by your side!

news flash: not everyone thinks kleck is a liberal http://vacps.org/public-policy/the-contradictions-of-kleck

Old Faithful keeps doing its thing...

[pablo_marmol]

174. I don't care *what* liars think. And neither should you.

Last edited Mon Jun 22, 2015, 03:06 AM - Edit history (1)

There is ZERO honest evidence that Kleck is anything but what he claims. But it's telling that you're behaving like a Fox News viewer here.

So I know that you know nothing about James Wright and Peter Rossi --- the liberal criminologists that Jimmy Carter commissioned to study the effects of gun control laws. They delivered some bad news to Jimmy and the haters. I understand that anyone who doesn't sing the party tune w/regard to gun violence is by definition a right-wing, NRA-loving tool to ideologues like you.

W/regard to the so-called "debunking" of Kleck's survey on defensive gun use, it has not only been supported by 15 other surveys, but also the NSPOF -- the instrument designed by pro-restriction "scholars" Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig. Their survey confirmed Kleck's numbers within the scientific margin of error. Not surprisingly, when their survey didn't produce the results they wanted they not only debunked their own work, but overnight decided that no survey was capable of measuring defensive gun use.



Your (presumably) unrepentant ugliness in smearing a fellow liberal leads me to conclude that any further dialog with you would be unproductive. C-YA.

[pablo_marmol]

175. I'll let persons of integrity following this line of conversation be the judges.

Last edited Mon Jun 22, 2015, 03:07 AM - Edit history (1)

Here's what is printed on one of the opening pages of Kleck's book Targeting Guns:

AUTHORS VOLUNTARY DISCLOSURE NOTICE

The author is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International USA, Independent Action, Democrats 2000, and Common Cause, among other politically liberal organizations. He is a lifelong registered Democrat, as well as a contributor to liberal Democratic candidates. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of, or contributor to the National Rifle Association, Handgun Control Inc., nor any other advocacy organization, nor has he received funding for research from any such organization.

Targeting Guns is the slightly modified (less technical) version of Point Blank, which was awarded (arguably) the highest honor that the American Society of Criminology bestows for the strongest contribution to criminology in 1993 by an author:

https://www.asc41.com/awards/awardWinners.html

Clearly Dr. Kleck was introduced as left-leaning for the debate in the following link......as is obvious by his opening remarks. I'll let fair-minded viewers decide if he comes across as sincere or not:

It's not surprising, but absolutely sickening that you would smear a fellow liberal Democrat (assuming that you are liberal) with the remarks that you have. The only reason that you can get away with it is the fact that so many Democrats have contempt for gun owners.

So - as long as you give yourself license to engage in this absolutely heinous behavior, why don't you finish the job and smear James Wright, Peter Rossi (RIP) and Kathleen Daly. After all, they informed Jimmy Carter that there was no credible evidence that "gun control" had accomplished anything:

http://www.amazon.com/Under-Gun-Weapons-Violence-America/dp/0202303063/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434948876&sr=1-1&keywords=under+the+gun+james+wright

You, sir/madam.......are a pitch-perfect example of why gun restriction is losing ground, and Democrats are viewed as lacking credibility generally by many Americans.

[CTyankee]

172. I understand that you have your own sources and I have mine...which I have

previously put up here...

[pablo_marmol]

156. LOL -- total non sequiter!

Unless you know something that the rest of us don't. You mean to say that the nation of Australia has politicized this tragedy?

[yodermon]

163. Australia banned guns after a mass shooting.

Did they politicize that tragedy?

[pablo_marmol]

165. I don't give a sh*t about Australia. It's utterly irrelevant to the point I was making. NT

[valerief]

153. Stay ammosexual. It IS a political issue. Off to Ignore! nt

[pablo_marmol]

158. My heart bleeds!

Being "sent off to ignore" by someone who stoops to name-calling.

[NaturalHigh]

126. Wow, second reply in the thread.

Stay classy, Valerie.

[CTyankee]

137. well, this IS a gun problem, a racism problem and a mental health problem...

we can't close our eyes or put our heads in the sand about the whole issue. It's real. It's way past time to call this politicizing...it already is and has been. Denying doesn't help anything.

[pablo_marmol]

159. The idea that we can "legislate away" evil and crazy is just about as intelligent

as "praying the gay away" --- only the control contingent hasn't, and won't likely ever figure it out.

[muriel_volestrangler]

160. So that leaves us with legislation to ban guns, doesn't it?

[pablo_marmol]

162. Only if Prohibition and "The War on Drugs" has taught us nothing.

And we want to hand our country over to the GOP on a silver platter.

Good luck with that.

[CTyankee]

166. and the first one we got rid of and the second one we are working on changing.

I look at it this way: if we WANT to, we can have sensible gun control in this country. Just as there are exceptions to the First Amendment there can be exceptions to the Second. And, we can do a lot if we WANT to: we won World War 2 and put a man on the moon. We freed slaves and ended slavery. We ended the prohibition on women voting. Those were not always easy tasks. But we damn well got them done.

Throwing up our hands and giving up are not options, IMO. Persistence has always solved the problems of the human race.

[pablo_marmol]

170. "Throwing up our hands and giving up are not options, IMO."

False argument. No one is arguing that we do nothing. What people who haven't bothered to educate themselves on this contentious issue will never grasp is that Democrats richly deserve the distrust that gun owners feel toward them. Feel-good legislation that accomplishes nothing but waste of tax payer dollars. Legislation that amounts to nothing but culture war. The more you know about the history and evolution of the gun rights/gun restriction debate the more you realize that The Controllers are to blame for the stalemate we now face. (Well......actually it's not a stalemate. Gun rights, like gay rights are thankfully on the march forward.)

Were it not for dishonest rhetoric involving "assault weapons", "gun show loopholes", "plastic guns" that can evade airport security, "cop killer bullets" etc., etc. ad nauseum, we might have national universal background checks, and better data sharing w/regard to mentally defective persons. Of these two, the latter would be more significant since 5 out of 6 criminals don't attempt acquire guns through legal means. (surprise, surprise!)

[CTyankee]

171. Meh, doing nothing yields us nothing. "feel good'? Hah, we don't and won't feel good

until we break the death grip the gun lobby has on our body politic. Everybody who has rational faculty knows that...it's out there for all to see. politicians are too scared of their own hides to get tough legislation out there. If they did they would be crushed by the gun lobby.

John Oliver's 3 part series on Jon Stewart's show took that whole thing apart...and also provided an interesting background on the Australia's experience (only he actually went there to gather his info and...gasp...actually interviewed real live Aussies on the fallout (or lack thereof) from their banning of guns...

[pablo_marmol]

176. "Hah, we don't and won't feel good until we break the death grip.......

.....the gun lobby has on our body politic.

Always with "the gun lobby". Restriction supporters always have to dishonestly misrepresent their opponents as an amorphous "lobby" because they can't deal with the fact that they are being defeated by gun owners.......which donate vastly more money to gun rights organizations than gun manufacturers in the form of millions of (relatively) small donations.

And again with the Australia experience --- totally moot for reasons I have already expressed.

You go ahead keep taking your cues from uneducated talking heads, and I'll continue to take mine from honest liberal scholars.

http://www.amazon.com/Restricting-Handguns-Liberal-Skeptics-Speak/dp/0884270343/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434951498&sr=1-1&keywords=the+liberal+skeptics+speak+out

[CTyankee]

177. Excellent, now comes Don Kates and all you need is your 3rd NRA fave to get the trifecta!

Now, Don is a blast from the past!

And how wonderful you use as your link the one to the Amazon ad touting his (their) book for $$$...their right of course (gotta sell the book!) but not exactly proof of anything...but thanks for playing...

Sure, I guess both you and Prof. Kates can call yourselves liberals. I guess anyone can call themselves what they want. But I don't think there are too many liberals that the NRA cozies up with unless it is for their own purposes. Just like using the term "independent" because "republican" sounds too um, uncomfortable...

Your "concern" over the Australia experience is completely undone by John Oliver's treatment of such "concerns." Hilarious...gave me a nice, big laugh this morning...

[NewSystemNeeded]

3. Black church.

Shooter reported to be 21-year-old white male.

[brush]

44. It's an AME church.

For those that don't know AME stands for African Methodist Episcopal, the oldest black church organization in the country (1787). I've watching msnbc right now. Chris Hayes' show has been interrupted 3 time in the last 30 minutes but for some reason neither the on-scene reporter nor the anchorwoman speaking with him will say it's a black church.

The reporter keeps saying he's at the "church" and there are many police who have set up crime scene tape. Several police cars just took off with sirens blaring. The shooter is still at large. Also that ministers have held a prayer service outside the church as a police helicopter circles overhead.

The most obvious fact that you'd think would be one of the first things mentioned is that an AME church is a black church. That's a huge part of the story.

The anchorwoman doesn't ask what the name of the church is or what kind of church it is.

WTF . . . are they both incompetent or are they withholding that info?

The anchorwoman finally points out to the reporter that there was an earlier description of the shooter and the seemingly out-of-his-depth reporter finally says that is correct — a 21-year-old male, white male, is being sought and leaves it at that.

The anchorwoman doesn't follow up.

Seems they are both poor at their jobs. Does someone need to turn the light bulb on over their heads?

A white male shooting up a black church is pertinent information.

[marshall]

51. Naming the race of a suspect has long been frowned on in the south

but I agree it sometimes is a Useful part of the story.

[heaven05]

129. naming the race

of a white suspect has been frowned upon....I lived there for a long time also.

[marshall]

161. That was the unspoken assumption

Race was only mentioned if the suspect was black, and it was assumed the suspect was white if it was not mentioned. In the sixties there started to be discussion about the effect of enflaming racial violence, and it was determined not to mention race at all.

[heaven05]

125. they are "poor at their jobs"

because they are directed to be poor. Having worked at a news station, their night editor told them to leave out mention of racist motivation for these murders. God, when will this shit end. I hope no children are among the murdered/executed. This shit has to end. Your last line is very true.

[Iliyah]

4. Oh no

[GP6971]

5. Coming up on Lawerene

West Coast time

[applegrove]

6. Clean shaven, small, white man, approx 21 years old is still on the loose.

[7962]

7. If they know how old he is then they likely also know WHO he is

Coward has probably already killed himself before facing the cops

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. from CNN Shooting reported at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/17/us/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/index.html

Shooting reported at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston

Police say the suspect in the shooting is a clean-shaven white man in his 20s, with a slender build. He was wearing a grey sweatshirt, blue jeans and boots. Soon afterward, police took a man matching that description into custody.

[Last update 10:42 p.m. ET]

Police in Charleston, South Carolina, are at the scene of a shooting at a downtown church, a local lawmaker told CNN Wednesday night.

There was no immediate information on potential victims.

The shooting took place at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church, said State Rep. Wendell G. Gilliard who represents the district where the church is located.

[jwirr]

21. Not sure the one in custody is the right one as they first stopped a camera man and had him

handcuffed.

[NRaleighLiberal]

22. yup - the fog of news, always seems to happen - watching the live stream now

[Historic NY]

9. CNN is reporting a suspect matching description is in custody...

http://www.kionrightnow.com/news/police-report-shooting-in-downtown-charleston/33641306

turns out he was a phtographer of some sort.

[Judi Lynn]

10. The same racist right-wing terrorists used to feel sated by burning down churches,

and, of course, their triumph, bombing a church in Alabama and killing some young black girls.

They can never get enough of someone else's blood, while making sure they are always well protected themselves. Guns are designed to murder or maim others while maintaining their own safety.

Hateful, filthy cowards.

On edit:

Whoever did it knew a lot of fundamentalist Christian churches have mid-week services every Wednesday. They would have just been getting out, of course, and the dipstick was waiting for them.

[NRaleighLiberal]

12. .

[truebluegreen]

16. fwiw, I don't usually link "Episcopal" with "fundamentalist"

but then I don't live in SC.

[brer cat]

23. AMEs are not fundamentalist.

They were originally Methodist, also not fundamentalist.

[Jamastiene]

70. The ones here where I live are.

There is one called AME Zion Baptist church. They are as fundamentalist and right wing as they come. Not all are fundamentalist, but some are.

[brer cat]

77. It is confusing.

AME Zion is not the same as the AME. I don't have any personal knowledge of AME Zion Baptist. Certainly many Baptist churches are fundamentalist, but I am not sure of the connection with AME Zion.

[Jamastiene]

105. I live in a fairly small town.

It's the Bible Belt. So, you have to keep that in mind. We have First Baptists, Second Baptists, Southern Baptists, Free Will Baptists, AME Zion Baptists, AME Zion without the Baptist mentioned, regular Baptists, some Methodists, very few Presbyterians, one Catholic Church in the town next to us, but none here in town, and lots of churches that I can't even figure out what they are, and of course, there is a LDS church here too. This town had 100+ churches back in the 90s. Less than 10k people live in my town. I'm just north of the South Carolina/North Carolina state line. Now, there are about double that number of churches plus others here, for less than 10k people, total population. Yes, it gets very confusing.

[brush]

149. AME Zion Baptist church is not the same as AME

That sounds like some amalgam cobbled together by the minister that started that particular church.

The AME denomination is run by bishops of different regions of the country who "appoint" ministers to churches in their region. There is structured liturgy to the services that are standard through out the country in all actual AME churches — quite different from Baptist churches.

There are no independent ministers who start up their own churches and and call themselves AME Zion Baptist.

And btw for your information, AME Zion is a separate denomination — an off shoot of AME

Neither is AME Zion Baptist.

[Jamastiene]

152. I just explained that not all are the same.

And you said the same thing. I can guarantee the ones where I live are conservative though. Not sure what your problem is with someone explaining that not all of them are liberal or conservative. It goes church by church down here.

[brush]

154. Sorry if I misunderstood

My point is that AME churches throughout the country have a standard liturgy and are not fundamentalist, nor Baptist.

[Jamastiene]

155. Things in my hometown get twisted in ways that are unimaginable to most

people who have never experienced this place. Those who have experienced this place see it for how twisted it really is.

We were saying the same thing, basically, but were talking past each other.

I just wish people would quit targeting people who are quietly minding their own business, and murdering them simply because of their skin color. That is truly awful.

And they are flying the confederate flag at full staff at the state house in SC today. The state flag is at half staff, but until you see the stark difference in their positions and size, that confederate flag is "in your face" because it is so front and center. That is beyond insensitive. I'm sickened to be even from the Carolina next to SC, but Shelby, NC police did arrest the guy. If he had gotten any further west, he would have been in that area of NC that has so many hate groups, the area that actively protected Eric Rudolph. A preacher in that area actually offered him "asylum" in the church and they wrote a folk song about him. It was sickening.

Of course, there are good people in SC and even in western NC too, but the ones in SC who saw to it to fly the confederate flag today, front and center like it is placed, and the ones in western NC who would have helped the guy escape if he had made his way to them...they sicken me.

He had pro apartheid patches on in that one picture. I read another article that said he told racist jokes in school, but the attitude by the student who mentioned it seemed to be like it was no big deal. Racist jokes should be a big deal. It's too ingrained in the culture in pockets here and there. Other areas can be like a 180 from the backwards ones who think like that.

Those lives lost. All they were doing was minding their own business, unarmed, not intent on harming anyone and he sat there for an hour with them before he started shooting. He had an hour to think about it. An hour to see how horrible his plan was. He still did it. That's some serious hatred there. All those innocent lives, murdered by someone who had a solid hour where he could have changed his mind and walked back out the door. I can't get that out of my head, the hour he spent there with them didn't change his mind about doing something so heinous. That is truly some serious hatred.

[jwirr]

28. AME churches may be fundamentalists which often only means "literalists" but they are not often

rw in the political sense. Whatever happened there is terrible and I am sad for all the families.

[herding cats]

33. Methodist Episcopal aren't fundamentalist. You're correct.

Neither is the A.M.E. Church, although it is historically more than just a traditional Methodist Episcopal church.

Lifted from Wikipedia for convenience of explaining who they are:

The AME Church grew out of the Free African Society (FAS), which Richard Allen, Absalom Jones, and other free blacks established in Philadelphia in 1787. They left St. George's Methodist Episcopal Church because of discrimination. Although Allen and Jones were both accepted as preachers, they were limited to black congregations. In addition, the blacks were made to sit in a separate gallery built in the church when their portion of the congregation increased. These former members of St. George's made plans to transform their mutual aid society into an African congregation. Although the group was originally non-denominational, eventually members wanted to affiliate with existing denominations.

Allen led a small group who resolved to remain Methodist. They formed the Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church in 1793. In general, they adopted the doctrines and form of government of the Methodist Episcopal Church. In 1794 Bethel AME was dedicated with Allen as pastor. To establish Bethel's independence, Allen successfully sued in the Pennsylvania courts in 1807 and 1815 for the right of his congregation to exist as an institution independent of white Methodist congregations. Because black Methodists in other middle Atlantic communities also encountered racism and desired religious autonomy, Allen called them to meet in Philadelphia in 1816 to form a new Wesleyan denomination, the "African Methodist Episcopal Church" (AME Church).

The African Methodist Episcopal Church has a unique history as it is the first major religious denomination in the western world that developed because of sociological rather than theological differences. It was the first African-American denomination organized and incorporated in the United States. The church was born in protest against racial discrimination and slavery. This was in keeping with the Methodist Church's philosophy, whose founder John Wesley had once called the slave-trade "that execrable sum of all villainies." In the 19th century, the AME Church of Ohio collaborated with the Methodist Episcopal Church, a predominantly white denomination, in sponsoring the second independent historically black college (HBCU), Wilberforce University in Ohio. Among Wilberforce University's early founders was Salmon P. Chase, then-governor of Ohio and the future Secretary of Treasury under President Abraham Lincoln.

Other members of the FAS wanted to affiliate with the Episcopal Church and followed Absalom Jones in doing that. In 1792, they founded the African Episcopal Church of St. Thomas, the first Episcopal church in the United States with a founding black congregation. In 1804, Jones was ordained as the first black priest in the Episcopal Church.

While the AME is doctrinally Methodist, clergy, scholars, and lay persons have written works that demonstrate the distinctive racial theology and praxis that have come to define this Wesleyan body. In an address to the 1893 World's Parliament of Religions, Bishop Benjamin W. Arnett reminded the audience of blacks' influence in the formation of Christianity. Bishop Benjamin T. Tanner wrote in 1895 in The Color of Solomon – What? that biblical scholars wrongly portrayed the son of David as a white man. In the post-civil rights era, theologians James Cone,[10] Cecil W. Cone, and Jacqueline Grant, who came from the AME tradition, critiqued Euro-centric Christianity and African-American churches for their shortcomings in resolving the plight of those oppressed by racism, sexism, and economic disadvantage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=African_Methodist_Episcopal_Church

My heart hurts tonight.

[duhneece]

147. They are Methodist. Episcopal refers to their church authority system, with Bishops

I've been a member of our Alamogordo AME church for 8 yrs, although they know I'm a heathen, in the sense that I don't believe in believing, I don't believe in the 'being saved' by Jaysus, but I do believe in healing and healthcare, which so many miracles were about and I believe 'God is Love and whoever has Love has God' and I believe in Matthew 25....
they let me sing in their choir so I get to sing for about one hour a week, between practice & the one hour service (they never have long services)-
Membership allowed relationships that couldn't have been otherwise.

[juajen]

40. As far as I know, all protestant churches have services

on Wednesday evenings. it was called Prayer Meeting, and I always went. We had choir practice afterwards. Isn't that still the same

[brush]

48. Where did you get that AME is fundamentalist?

It's a Methodist church that was founded in 1787 by black worshipers who were forced to sit in the balcony of the white Methodist church. They left and formed their own denomination.

It is no way fundamentalist.

[Judi Lynn]

113. If a church has prayer meetings on Wednesday night it most likely is fundamentalist Prostestant.

Sorry if it offends you.

Had no idea anyone would be getting pissed off about it.

Prayer meetings on Wednesday, fundamentalist. Period.

Revivals, fundamentalist.

Having been raised in a fundamentalist church, and having gone to church two times Sunday morning, with Sunday School, and the church service, then Sunday night youth service, and another service, and going to Wednesday night prayer service, I should know.

I recall having had a lively conversation with a little girl at my grade school who was black, who also went to Sunday night services, and Wednesday services, as we tried to figure out who spent more time in church. It looks as if we may have tied.

On edit:

Oh, for chrissakes. I just remembered why I would have said AME's are fundamentalist, at least in my experience. My parents had a good friend when they were living, who was from Kingston, Jamaica, as well as his wife. They were both black. My father asked him to preach sometimes in our church, because he was such an amazing speaker.

At some point, the man was invited to move to Brooklyn, New York, to be the minister of the American Methodist Church, and he, by God, was a fundamentalist, just like us.

[BumRushDaShow]

118. I am Episcopalian

the U.S. progeny of the epitome of the Anglo-Saxon-originated culture - the Church of England (Anglican), and a contributor to what became the "AME" church originated here in Philadelphia through the Richard Allen (Methodist) - Absalom Jones (Episcopal) connection. And the practices are about as far away from Baptist-style "Fundamentalist" as one can get, being near-Catholic in terms of liturgy. And we have Wednesday "Bible Studies". If anything, within the non-fundie churches, the discussion tends to be more historical in nature, with an attempt to offer reflections on the modern manifestations of the section being looked at.

The history of the founding of the AME church - http://pastispresent.org/2011/good-sources/richard-allen-absalom-jones-and-the-early-black-church/

[brush]

148. I grew un in the AME church

It is not fundamentalist. Most black churches have events during the week, prayer service being on of them.

Your idea of fundamentalism does not apply to the AME church.

[BumRushDaShow]

110. As herdingcats mentioned

The African Methodist Episcopal Church was founded here in Philadelphia where they eventually established Mother Bethel AME near 6th & Lombard, literally a couple blocks south of Independence Hall, the beacon of Freedom™, where the same types of racists who did this slaughter, refused to allow the chattel they had dragged over here from the continent of Africa, to worship with them.



http://www.motherbethel.org/allen/version2/index.html

[onehandle]

11. Gun culture-y. nt

[Botany]

13. This will be the last mass shooting until we have another one

In Columbus, OH we had 4 people shot in one house about 3 miles from
where I am sitting right now 4 days ago.

[Cha]

104. Oh dear, Botany.. it's all so incredibly, unbearably, tragically sad..

And, incredibly frustrating because there's nothing we can do about it.

[Botany]

119. I have hunted and owned guns for years and I am sick of the gun culture and America's insane ....

.... insane gun laws. How many young children were slaughtered before Christmas
in 2012 in Sandy Hook, CT and still nothing was done. Right now I bet that the NRA
is holding meeting on how to manage this latest blood bath.

[heaven05]

131. I am sick of the

goddamn racists with guns. Fuck the NRA.

[47of74]

14. Goddamnit.

Another fucking shooting. More families devastated.

[calimary]

75. No kidding.

WHEN THE HELL DOES IT END?????

Dear God - how many more???

[heaven05]

133. until racism is eradicated

in this country, which will NEVER happen by the way, many, many more, and I have no doubt, with growing frequency with the number of zimmerman, bundy, wilson clones in this country. And they'll have fox news and most MSM fanning the flames of their 'discontent'.......

[herding cats]

15. Oh, no!

I hope they find the shooter alive and he has to stand trial for his charges. I want him to answer for his crimes!

[juajen]

18. OMG, that's so sad.

I wonder how many little ones will now be afraid to go to church

[teach1st]

19. Streaming local coverage

Since CNN, Fox, and MSNBC aren't covering this on television right now, here's a link to local coverage:

http://www.counton2.com/category/259339/news-2-livestream

[NRaleighLiberal]

20. thanks.

[lovemydog]

73. Thank you very much.

[heaven05]

134. I am so glad

for the internet. They, the MSM, won't be able to ignore or downplay the import of this.

[NRaleighLiberal]

24. 11:30 live stream indicates still searching for shooter.

[SoCalMusicLover]

25. It's Better To Pray To Guns Than God

More proof there is no God and religion is a waste.

Pray to the 2nd Amendment God, not the one supposedly in the sky.

[wheniwasincongress]

26. They seem to still be looking for the shooter

but they have a suspect who matches the identity in custody, his photo is being floated around social media. Poor guy, if he has nothing to do with this.

[jwirr]

34. On Lawrence O a reporter on the scene said that the first person they handcuffed turned out to be

a camera man.

[wheniwasincongress]

37. thanks. The guy in the photos

does indeed have a large camera around his chest

[Agnosticsherbet]

27. "The suspect is a white male about 21-years-old and is wearing a grey sweatshirt or hoodie,

blue jeans and Timberland boots, officials said."

[brer cat]

29. Terrible.

I am glad that the suspect is in custody. That will offer some relief, although he accomplished horrific damage before hand.

[NRaleighLiberal]

30. not necessarily - live stream indicates they are still searching. confused situation (not surprising

[riversedge]

31. cable only has re-runs. Have been flipping for awhile..

seems odd.

[NRaleighLiberal]

32. live reporting at this link - local news

http://www.counton2.com/category/259339/news-2-livestream

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. Live Stream from the local CBS station...

http://www.live5news.com/category/219058/live-stream?clienttype=generic

[riversedge]

39. thank you

[NRaleighLiberal]

36. breaking - bomb threat near the church - 10 minutes ago.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. Bomb threat called in.

[wheniwasincongress]

41. "21 year old male"

That's an awfully specific age - does this mean it's likely someone knows him and his age, or is this law enforcement's way of saying "late teens/early twenties" ?

[Renew Deal]

42. 11:53PM EDT Suspect still on the loose. Arrested man not the shooter.

According to the WCSC stream.

Someone arrested, but he is not the shooter.

[wheniwasincongress]

43. Press briefing expected shortly

[DonCoquixote]

45. damn damn damn

and Heaven help fox if they exploit the color of whoever it is. I wonder what Nikki Haley will try to say.

[NRaleighLiberal]

46. reported on Twitter "ABC just reported that the Reverend Pinckney & his sister were two of the

victims"

[Jamastiene]

47. Awful.

I'm sick of this sick gun obsessed culture in America that is killing innocent people for no good reason. That is why those of us who don't trust the gun obsessed types don't trust gun obsessive types. They are liable to go off at any minute and just shoot everyone around them to death

[SwankyXomb]

63. The usual

gun worshipers will be along shortly as soon as they get their NRA talking points, although they'll just be the same ones they've been parroting for years.

[heaven05]

136. What about racist gun obssessed amerikkkans

I don't trust them either. They go off and just start shooting anyone who's a POC around them.

[KeepItReal]

49. Link to Local News Livestream here:

http://livestream.com/WCSC/live?t=1434600954

The just interviewed a Caucasian reporter who was detained by Police

[hollowdweller]

71. Man some really racist comments running beside the livestream!

[Oilwellian]

50. Oh no

[Man from Pickens]

52. F***

this is pretty much the last thing I wanted to see happen in my state

pretty strange the report of him wearing a sweatshirt, it's way too damn hot for that - anyone wearing that would stand out big time

[RandySF]

53. Pastor Emiritus was at a Hillary event earlier today.

The church is politically active. I wonder whether it was a hit.

[riversedge]

54. JUST IN: SC Gov. @nikkihaley on #charlestonchurchshooting

DaShawn Brown ?@DaShawnLive5 4m4 minutes ago

JUST IN: SC Gov. @nikkihaley on #charlestonchurchshooting #chsnews

[NRaleighLiberal]

55. so the party of non-stop hate radio doesn't understand what motivates this sort of thing?

[riversedge]

62. a fish does not know it is swimming in water....

or something like that. Anyway--she is in the bubble of nothingness.

[onehandle]

68. Availability of guns motivates them to act.

Cue the NRA to hold their next national convention there.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

78. Why doesn't Nimrod look at the flag they fly at the state house

Dumb fucking.......

[heaven05]

141. they do fly the confederate flag proudly

yes they do.....so her note is meaningless as long as they keep fanning the flames every time a new confederate 'soldier' of the GOP and teabaggers and their apologists see that flag flapping in the wind.

[heaven05]

138. keep praying

[riversedge]

56. Bush cancels events in SC and just posted this tweet ...

NPR News follows
Chris Shepherd ?@ChrisShepherd 2m2 minutes ago

Chris Shepherd retweeted Jeb Bush

Bush cancels events in SC and just posted this tweet #CharlestonChurchShooting #Charlestonshooting

Chris Shepherd added,
Jeb Bush @JebBush
Our thoughts and prayers are with the individuals and families affected by the tragic events in Charleston.
0 retweets 0 favorites

[Renew Deal]

57. A civilian on the street said a 90 year old woman and 5 year old child are dead

Of course all unconfirmed.

[SheilaT]

58. Guns! Guns! Guns!

Yes, this is what we get if we live in a country where guns are celebrated and readily available. Anyone at all, pro or anti gun has no business pretending to be shocked when this happens. Or when a toddler pulls a gun from his mother's purse and shoots her. Or when a dad shoots his daughter because he thinks she's a home invader. Or if some idiot simply decides to shoot one person, or a bunch of people.

It's sad, it's tragic, and it's inevitable.

[NRaleighLiberal]

59. and it's endless - and it is hard to see the situation getting any better.

[SheilaT]

61. Yep. It will never get better until the guns are taken away.

[romanic]

66. Not so easy

You can take every single gun away, it won't stop those people (criminals, maniacs, terrorists, etc) from getting a new piece. Gun laws have to be tougher and guns have to be harder/more expensive to get and own.

[heaven05]

143. you're right

racist criminals, racist maniacs, racist soldiers of the new confederacy, racist terrorists will always have access to guns. Gun laws mean squat.

[bluestateguy]

103. You make a good point

But right now, I don't really trust the police with more powers to decide who is and isn't allowed to own a gun.

[riversedge]

60. #Charleston Mayor Riley calls... "unspeakable and heartbreaking tragedy." Awaiting presser

The Post and Courier ?@postandcourier 7m7 minutes ago

#Charleston Mayor Riley calls #CharlestonShooting "unspeakable and heartbreaking tragedy." Awaiting presser. http://bit.ly/1dLokRa #chsnews

[Hulk]

64. This has to be "Obama's fault".....?

Start the timer. I'm guessing by tomorrow this time, fox-nonsense will pin this one on that black man in the White House, and his wife and two daughters.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

69. FOX "News" will claim this guy is a liberal.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

81. "Registered Democrat"

I'm sure Faux isn't even concerned

[Warpy]

65. I know I've been past that church and have read the sign out front

(it was posted on Twitter). I don't remember going inside, it was during a walking tour of Charleston that included the old slave market, a place that creeps me out to this day, back in the late 50s when I was a kid.

I hope the guy is caught fast. I hope they don't portray him as a lone nut, he's not, he's most likely been nurtured in the bosom of every racist organization in SC and at least one of the churches.

I hope they finally tie this shit together with the NRA, an organization that will remain strangely silent instead of exhorting black folks to buy guns to protect themselves (bad advice, by the way).

I also hope the death toll is being exaggerated, that there were minimal injuries. Since this racist bastard was obviously hunting human beings, that hope is very faint.

[project_bluebook]

82. People I know with fox news lobotomies

are the most racist, vile people I have ever known. This monster probably is a hardcore fox news punk.

[passiveporcupine]

88. Unfortunately, nine are confirmed dead.

One person died at the hospital. Eight were killed in the church.

[Warpy]

89. Yes, I've kept up

I said it was a very faint hope.

[KeepItReal]

67. 9 confirmed dead

A 21 year old, sandy blond haired White male suspect is at large.

Per the live police press conference:

http://livestream.com/WCSC/live?t=1434600954

[lovemydog]

72. Thank you for the live stream.

[Chicago1980]

74. State Senator Clementa Pickney is confirmed dead.

The pastor of the church is confirmed dead.

They are calling this a hate crime.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

80. This just graduated from a news event to a historic event.

[NRaleighLiberal]

76. here are my notes from the police/mayor news conference. labeled a hate crime.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026855469

[Hissyspit]

79. ABC News: Shooting Believed to be a Hate Crime, Police Chief Says

[lovemydog]

83. So right now they have a description of the suspect

but they don't have a photo or name of the suspect.

Is that correct?

[NRaleighLiberal]

84. if they know more, they are not saying, according to the press conference info

[lovemydog]

85. Thank you.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

86. I have the local news on and zip so far.

[lovemydog]

87. Thanks.

[LovingA2andMI]

90. This will not end well....

This church is HISTORICAL to the Underground Railroad, an AME Church and the Pastor who was a State Senator Carmela Pinkney along with 8 other innocent souls were killed, in a church.

This will not end well.

RIP to the Dead, Praying for a Safe Recovery for the Victims. Otherwise, speechless....



One more point -- Four Little Girls -Sunday, September 15, 1963 - 16th Street Church - Birmingham, Alabama/Nine Innocent Souls - Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - Emanuel AME Church - Charleston, South Carolina

[lovemydog]

91. Thank you. Yes, I also read that this church

was the site of a slave revolt.

I will join in marches here in New Mexico.

I am just so sick and tired.

All I feel I can do is march and pray.

[LovingA2andMI]

92. Thank You!!!

This is like a stab to the heart. One I personally thought will never be seen in my lifetime -- as the historical context of this was quite enough to learn, read, digest.

Can't say too much more besides -- RIP to the Victims, Safe Recovery for the Victims and Sympathy to the Families and Others in the Charleston, South Carolina community.

Historical Context: Four Little Girls -Sunday, September 15, 1963 - 16th Street Church - Birmingham, Alabama/Nine Innocent Souls - Wednesday, June 16, 2015 - Emanuel AME Church - Charleston, South Carolina.

[Marrah_G]

99. When will the insanity end?

I will never understand why people feel the need to hate and to hurt.

[Rhiannon12866]

93. Nine Dead in Shooting Rampage Inside South Carolina Church; Gunman at Large (includes news video)

A white man walked into a historic African-American church in Charleston, South Carolina, and opened fire during a Bible study class, killing nine people Wednesday evening.

The suspect was still at large early Thursday morning. And the shooting at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, the oldest AME church in the South, is being investigated as a hate crime.

<snip>

Police said the suspect in the shooting is a clean-shaven white man in his 20s, with a slender build. He was wearing a gray sweatshirt, blue jeans and boots.

“He obviously is extremely dangerous,” Chief Mullen said. “We will put all our resources, we will put all of our energy in finding this individual.”

http://ktla.com/2015/06/17/gunman-opens-fire-inside-church-in-charleston-south-carolina/

[lovemydog]

94. I hope they catch the gunman soon.

And if he's hiding with anyone else that they catch all of them.

[Rhiannon12866]

95. Sounds like they have a good description, can't imagine he could get far

Everyone will be on the lookout for this monster, not just law enforcement.

[Behind the Aegis]

96. It could be awhile.

The College of Charleston is right there, so there are a number of college students who match that description, not to mention The Citadel is there too.

[Rhiannon12866]

97. Ah! Thanks!

I just hope it doesn't take as long as it's been in my neck of the woods. It's actually up north a ways, but it leads the news every day and people are freaking out that they haven't captured those two escapees yet. People are walking around armed to the teeth, not a great situation.

[CTyankee]

135. my granddaughter is a student at the C of C. Thank god she's home now in MA...

[Behind the Aegis]

151. I was thinking about you.

My best friend's son is there too.

[CTyankee]

167. I learned today that Roof had originally planned to go shoot up the C of C's campus

but thought the security of the campus was too tight for him to pull it off. That got me scared all over again. But then I remember when I visited the campus there last September that the security was REALLY tight...we were joking that we had to produce a passport (joke) to get into my granddaughter's dorm.

Now I'm glad the security was so tight, but I still worry about her...

[Marrah_G]

98. OMG this is terrible!!!!!!

[lovemydog]

100. Donate directly to the church here:

http://www.emanuelamechurch.org

[Rhiannon12866]

106. That's a terrific idea! Thanks for posting this...

These folks are going to need a lot of help and monetary donations are just a part of it.

[SunSeeker]

102. Horrific.

[Glimmer of Hope]

107. Why? What horrible news to wake up to.

[still_one]

108. This is definitely a racist hate crime, and the feds better be involved

domestic terrorism against the black community

[JustAnotherGen]

109. Chief of Police - its a Hate Crime

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/17/white-gunman-sought-in-shooting-at-historic-charleston-african-ame-church/

[still_one]

111. Reading some of those comments associated with the link you provided indicates a lot racist asses

are out there

[JustAnotherGen]

112. I didn't read the comments

Those people are of little value to me. Now throw them in the trash pile, wash your eyes - and be sure in your knowledge that yes! There an awful lot of racist assholes in America!

[still_one]

146. you are wise

[pugetres]

114. I cannot go to bed until

I can at least say what is on my mind.

It was a hate crime. I'm glad that officials are saying that it was a hate crime.

But, I am disgusted at the fact that they will not say that it was a racially motivated hate crime. They push the focus onto the location of the horrendous crime rather than the victims themselves.

[JustAnotherGen]

123. MSNBC - about 6:00 a.m.

Was talking about it being the anniversary of a factory fire. A good number of fire fighters lost their lives in that.


But - it had NOTHING to do with the hate crime - racially motivated - that happened yesterday evening.

I'm not making it up. I'd bet ctyankee saw it as I know she is a morning joe watcher.

[Marrah_G]

115. Link to first pictures of the suspect.

http://www.live5news.com/story/29348747/police-release-photo-of-suspect-in-fatal-charleston-church-shooting

[Bosonic]

116. Police release images of assailant & car

Last edited Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:18 AM - Edit history (1)

[Amishman]

132. those pictures send chills down my spine

I am seeing a strong resemblance to Adam Lanza, right down to the haircut

[d_b]

142. looks like fresh mud on his boots

[alboe]

117. Tragic. Hoping they catch this guy very very soon.

[LiberalElite]

120. I was an adolescent in the '60s and recall

the church bombing in Birmingham. It seems the more things change the more they do stay the same. Unbelievable.

[Bosonic]

121. Gunman specifically asked for Clementa Pinckney before shooting

.@WBTVKristenM played intvw in #AlertCenter w/Pinckney's cousin. Says gunman specifically asked 4 Pinckney b4 shooting. #CharlestonShooting

https://twitter.com/ChristineOnTV/status/611485712853041152

Chief Mullen: Says #CharlestonShooting gunman stayed inside prayer meeting approx 1 hour before shooting.

https://twitter.com/ChristineOnTV/status/611492134957416449

[Inkfreak]

122. Just terrible, awful news. So sad. (nt)

[Novara]

124. Oh, but this can't be domestic terrorism because he's white, not brown

[NaturalHigh]

127. Prayers to the victims of this terrible crime.

I've never understood the terrorist mindset that leads someone to kill people in their place of worship.

[heaven05]

128. To wake up to some despicable, racist

event such as this is very depressing but even more, anger provoking in the highest degree. The white supremacist, instead of their morning coffee must be popping the cork on their champagne bottles, no doubt. Cliven Bundy, Darren Wilson, zimmerman et al; must be on their knees giving thanks to their god this morning to have this racist in their camp....I really am finding this event extremely difficult to maintain composure or civility about.

I have to do details, but they really are not necessary given the racial climate brought in this country about by the Koch's, fox news and most MSM, GOPers and the Teabaggers and their apologist fellow travelers

[nruthie]

130. Only in America.

As long as anyone can own a gun this stuff will happen.

[CTyankee]

139. and state gun laws can be overcome with enough determination on the part of people

bent on doing this kind of thing.

[d_b]

140. Nutjob

probably an "obama tried to nuke Charleston" dipshit.

[lovemydog]

150. Suspect in custody.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33190735

[mvd]

164. This is so depressing

Such hate still exists in this world. We still have a long way to go. Thoughts and prayers go out to family and friends of the victims.

I am not for the death penalty in any cases and hope that such horrific murderers like Tsarnaev and Roof are young enough to be rehabilitated - though they will have to see the light in jail. No way they should ever get out.