Federal report: Vegan diet best for planet

[onehandle]

Last edited Mon Apr 6, 2015, 01:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: The Hill

A federal panel that helps set federal dietary guidelines is recommending Americans eat less meat because it’s better for the environment, sparking outrage from industry groups representing the nation’s purveyors of beef, pork and poultry.

The Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee, a federally appointed panel of nutritionists created in 1983, decided for the first time this year to factor in environmental sustainability in its recommendations. They include a finding that a diet lower in animal-based foods is not only healthier, but has less of an environmental impact.

The meat industry is lashing back, contending the panel has neither the authority nor the expertise to make such a judgment.

“When you talk about the lens of the dietary guidelines it’s just not appropriate for the advisory committee to enter that conversation when they were asked to look at nutrition and health science,” said Kristina Butts, executive director of legislative affairs for the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association.

Read more: http://thehill.com/regulation/237767-vegan-diet-best-for-planet-federal-report-says

---

No shit, Sherlock.

And the Earth Destroying Cow Killing Profiteer's Association disagrees. Shocker.

Fuck you, Beef.



On edit: I'm not 'proselytizing.' I am not a vegan, although my diet is probably about 90% vegan. I do eat eggs and a little dairy. And I gladly eat fish, mainly when I eat out (mmm... sushi). A couple of times a year I find myself in a situation when the provided food does not offer a proteinful vegetarian or fish option (usually in a work situation). I shrug and I have a little chicken or turkey, maybe even a little beef. But never pork under any circumstance. Pigs are smarter than my dog and I love my dog.

I don't eat lamb or deer or duck. They taste nasty to me.

[F4lconF16]

1. ...

Edit to add that we really, really, really need to start reducing meat consumption on this planet, and to be honest, I don't really care how we do it. My right to a clean future and my kid's future trumps your right to have bacon.

[cstanleytech]

6. "My right to a clean future and my kid's future trumps your right to have bacon." Nope

Whats trumping my right to eat bacon is the price and the same goes for the price of everything really including fresh veggies, I mean jeez it seems the price of food just keeps climbing but I know for a fact its not being passed to the people working in the stores because my brother works in the grocery industry and I know what he gets paid.

[F4lconF16]

8. True enough.

And if we were to start phasing out meat, there would have to be low cost alternatives provided. Of course, if we subsidised fresh local vegetables as we did meat production, that might not be a problem. I'm certainly not in favor of just banning meat without providing alternatives to those who need them. It just pisses me off that we continue to produce massive amounts of meat with no thought or actions about the consequences.

http://science.time.com/2013/12/16/the-triple-whopper-environmental-impact-of-global-meat-production/

Just one more thing among many ways we are destroying ourselves. And young people like me are the ones that are going to be hit hardest by all of the environmental destruction of the last 200 years. And yet not a peep from our current two ruling parties.

[handmade34]

28. do not acquiesce

communally, our right to a clean environment should supersede allowing for the unregulated production of factory livestock...

facts are facts and factory farms are destroying the environment and we should do something about it...

[PeteSelman]

2. I'm sure it is.

Beef and bacon taste great though. There's virtually zero chance that people are going full vegan anytime soon.

[villager]

3. not until disease and collapse forces them to....

As the environment continues to fray, and the subsidies follow, the "cheap meat" era will end... one way or another.

[DustyJoe]

15. Not always

If you own a big lot, can grow grass/alfalfa/oats/corn

You can raise a calf, chickens, sheep pretty reasonably and eat the corn and the livestock.

calves, chickens and sheep are all the vegans I need.

[villager]

20. Note I said the era of "cheap meat" will end

That doesn't mean everyone will become unswervingly vegan. Some folks will still hunt it, fish for it, raise it, etc.

But the over-representation of meat the American diet will come to its inevitable skidding halt.

[NickB79]

93. Given how far into overshoot we are, the era of "long pork" may well follow

If the environmental collapse and soil degradation are severe enough.



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=long+pork

[villager]

94. Oh I expect we'll be on "The Road" -- Cormac McCarthy style -- soon enough.

Alas.

[craigmatic]

4. well I'm half way there.

[SoapBox]

5. By gawd...if we have our way, you WILL eat pink slime!

These "industry groups" want to tell you what to do...

[mucifer]

7. Doing the happy vegan dance!

(I'm not a good dancer)

[yeoman6987]

9. Had me a steak at Outback tonight

I always find it funny when stories like these come out after I did the very thing they don't want me to do. I have to give credit to vegans....such discipline. I don't have the discipline or desire to be a vegetarian or vegan. Even in college when everyone was experimenting with being a vegetarian or vegan, I never did and most didn't last long at all because it is a hard thing to do. Good on those that can do it.

[alarimer]

116. I don't have the desire to go vegetarian either.

Life would not be worth living if I couldn't eat what I actually like, instead of choking down some vegetables I really can't stand.

I think the real issue with our food system is the vast distances everything has to travel. Local is best, whatever you eat. No need to eat asparagus from Argentina or wherever.

[chernabog]

117. Nice point of view

Take several hundred lives so you can live a more comfortable one, got it.

[jmowreader]

10. Did whoever wrote the headline read the story?

The article said, "eat less meat." It didn't say "stop eating it," and there is a quote from a spokesperson who said, "this is not a vegan approach."

[Throd]

11. Fuck that. I just recently nailed the recipe for Korean short ribs.

[Aerows]

88. Please share!

Cooking & Baking can always use some good recipes!

[DustyJoe]

12. can't afford vegan

Grilled a Top Sirloin (medium rare, dripping good) at $5.25 a lb.

And had a tossed spring mix/ 50-50 spinach salad that came bagged, pre washed at 3.99 for about 5 ounces.

Like salad, Love steak

[Thespian2]

19. Well, Let's see

I don't have enough land to feed a cow...I bought part of one from a friend who grows cows...organic grain-fed cows (last quarter cost $2.95 per pound). I don't have the space for chickens...a friend of mine grew a dozen for me. I grew their primary feed, zucchini...each chicken weighed in at about 12 pounds, dressed. The cost was minimal. I can grow and preserve organic vegetables. Cost is minimal. We live healthy...we eat healthy meet. I have a well...and this time of the year, what the well needs...snow.

[mopinko]

83. 12 lbs dressed?

what kind of chickens were they?

[longship]

13. Eat more bacon.

Vegans should stop proselytizing.

Eat more ice cream!
Fried eggs are wonderful!

See. I can do it, too.

On second thought. Maybe we all ought to eat the food we like and leave others alone.

Yup! I think that's a pretty good idea.

I had an all veggie salad for lunch today. And a rare hamburger for dinner. With lots of fixings, including bacon and extra sharp cheddar cheese! Yum!

What did you have?

No worries. If you are from Vega, I won't criticize you for it. Just leave my preferred diet out of your conversation. I will do the same with yours. Get it? I hope so.

[ZombieHorde]

32. Maybe we all oughta dump whatever we want in the rivers and leave others alone.

[handmade34]

34. proselytizing

is about a belief system... the facts are in longship and talking about the harm that factory farming is doing is not proselytizing... factory farming and the abundance of meat consumption is harming the planet... you need not be defensive... just accept the science of it

no one is telling meat eaters to just quit eating meat... all major environmental groups and health organizations are suggesting we lessen our consumption of meat

[longship]

38. I find myself eating less meat as I age.

Approaching 70 soon. But I eat less all around these days. Smaller meals, and yes less meat.

But vegans eschew dairy and eggs. That just is not healthy, IMHO. Eggs are a wonderful protein source. Dairy also. Also delicious. No ice cream? That's not civilized!

Vegans are welcome to eat what they want. Just don't tell me what I can or cannot eat.

I prefer to eat food more than any other substance. My diet includes all the food groups. But yes, at my age my meals tend to be smaller and with less meat. But I eat meat daily. It is a good protein source. As are eggs and dairy.

The belief system is that some foods are somehow bad for you when for millions of years all our ancestors have been omnivores.

My advice. Eat a diverse diet. Everything in moderation. That's how one stays healthy. There is no secret formula other than that. That's my belief.

My best to you.

[kentauros]

50. I recently discovered a new "ice cream": Coconut Bliss, and it is!

Coconut Bliss

Costs a little more than "regular" ice cream, yet as I don't buy such treats but about once a month (if that), it's worth the higher price. I haven't had "real" ice cream in years, and I truly don't miss it. Too many wonderful alternatives out there. And coconut milk has the best "mouth feel" when compared to dairy milk.

[bhikkhu]

14. Perhaps, but cow pasturage isn't so evil as a monoculture herbicide soaked corn farm

I live in an arid poor-soil area that is mostly unsuited to farming, but has many ranches. There's an abundance of wildlife. When I've travelled through corn-country, the mile upon mile of industrial agriculture doesn't exactly inspire the idea that farming saves the planet. I'm not sure there's a good argument on either side.

For the sake of kindness I'd choose to be a vegan, but I'm not quite there.

[handmade34]

35. consider please

that the majority of that "mile upon mile of industrial agriculture" is grain, growing primarily to feed livestock


"About 349 million acres in the U.S. are planted for crops. This is the equivalent of about four states the size of Montana. Four crops -- feeder corn (80 million acres), soybeans (75 million acres), alfalfa hay (61 million acres) and wheat (62 million acres) -- make up 80 percent of total crop acreage. All but wheat are primarily used to feed livestock.

The amount of land used to produce all vegetables in the U.S. is less than 3 million acres"


there is still good pasture for a limited amount of livestock but not at the rate we consume meat

[bhikkhu]

36. Very good point

The climate and soil in my area support potatoes, hay and livestock. It doesn't work out too badly here, for what we have.

In other areas I can see the point - plenty of pasturage isn't good enough to support livestock, and then the good soil and water goes to growing food for livestock. I'll take back my argument and rethink it.

[handmade34]

37. ....

[mountain grammy]

16. We're meat eaters in this family, but eating a lot less,

beef, about once every two weeks, chicken, once a week, pork, almost never. We're buying more natural, locally raised meat products because factory farms are disgusting and inhumane. The meat is expensive, so we're eating less. Better for us and the planet. This isn't a judgement, it's reality.

[gwheezie]

17. you really can teach an old dog new tricks

My dad is 88. He's been vegan about 20 years after his 2nd heart attack and a bout with cancer. He's not an old hippy. He's a little old man from Italy. My daughter has been vegan for about 5 years. My sister has been vegetarian for about 10 years since age 50 wish. I've been vegetarian for 2 years. I used to have livestock and poultry. Now I have pets. I went vegan about 6 months ago at age 65. Myneices and nephews have been vegetarian or vegan for years. We have a variety of reasons why. Having lived in a mostly ag county I know several neighbors who are vegetarian or vegan. We can grow our own here. I don't miss eating animals. The younger vegan relatives made the choice based on environmental considerations. I did it because of a gradual inability to eat animals I got to know. My daughter did it because of her diabetes.

[villager]

21. +1 Thanks for sharing your own evolution on the matter

Eventually, economics and environmental fraying will force big dietary changes on 'Murca, even if many are convinced their supply of faceless cheap steak dinners will never end...

[tridim]

51. Which diabetes symptoms did cutting out meat address?

Wouldn't reducing carbs (the actual cause of type 2 diabetes) be a better idea than cutting protein and fat?

It doesn't make any sense.

[gwheezie]

75. her endo suggested it

She still balanced her carbs and proteins. She was able to come off all her meds and her hgba1c is under 5.8. She also goes to the gym faithfully.
Her diet is balanced.

[shanti]

85. just one thing

eating meat has nothing to do with diabetes. meat isn't a carb.

[gwheezie]

106. I think she was referring to protein

Plenty if plant based protein sources.

[ffr]

18. For non-vegans wanting to change their diets

do you have some Web links for good places to start?

The more I learn about corporate farm practices, growth hormones & animal antibiotics, the more it turns my stomach away from eating anything meat related. I barely touch fish for much the same reason, to the dismay of my family, who love to eat fish. For them it's a luxury.

Personally, I'd like to change my dietary habits.

[donf]

24. "Forks Over Knives"

is a fascinating documentary, and also has a website and an app with wonderful, free recipes. There is also the companion book (also titled Forks Over Knives) and a Forks Over Knives cookbook. (The "knives" referred to in the title are scalpels.) All of the recipes I have tried are delicious, simple, and reasonably easy to cook. I had been a vegetarian for almost 25 years until I watched Forks Over Knives in October of last year. It was so compelling that I immediately switched to a whole-foods vegan lifestyle. Since then I have lost 20 lbs, and after only 2 months, my cholesterol, which was usually in the low 200s, had dropped to 163. My doctor was ecstatic! I have really enjoyed the change, and discovering new foods and new ways of cooking, and I am never looking back!

BTW – this post is in response to a direct question. I am not some annoying "holier than thou" vegan who goes around criticizing other peoples dietary choices. But, if asked, I will share my experiences.

Best of luck!

[gwheezie]

30. I lost weight too

My lab numbers are better also. I made several life style changes in the past 6 months
I don't care what other people eat but like you if anyone wants to learn more I'm happy to share

[handmade34]

26. thank you for caring

it is always tiresome when someone posts about the deleterious effects (upon the environment) of factory farming and meat consumption and people continue to defend their meat consumption...

[bananas]

45. The actress who plays Amy on The Big Bang Theory is a vegan neuroscientist

and she wrote a cookbook for you:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101675640

[Bluenorthwest]

71. She also eats Kosher, which is much easier if you are Vegan.....

One set of dishes, done.

[NickB79]

105. She's also been an anti-vaxxer asshole

http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2015/02/11/has-mayim-bialik-changed-her-stance-on-vaccines/

[bananas]

46. Al Gore: "There are 10 vegan restaurants in Nashville now."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024093553

The New Optimism of Al Gore
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/science/the-new-optimism-of-al-gore.html?ref=science&_r=0

The New Optimism of Al Gore
By JOHN SCHWARTZ
MARCH 16, 2015

<snip>

At age 66, he is also trimmer than he was during his bearish, bearded period after the 2000 election, thanks in part to a vegan diet he has maintained for two years. In this city? Home of heavenly meat-and-three platters?

He smiles and says proudly, “There are 10 vegan restaurants in Nashville now.”

<snip>

[bananas]

47. You can start with Meatless Monday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatless_Monday

Meatless Monday is a non-profit initiative of The Monday Campaigns Inc. in association with the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Center for a Livable Future. Meatless Monday was founded in 2003 by marketing professional Sid Lerner. The program follows the nutrition guidelines developed by the USDA.[1] Meatless Monday is part of the Healthy Monday initiative.[2] Healthy Monday encourages Americans to make healthier decisions at the start of every week. Other Healthy Monday campaigns include: The Kids Cook Monday, Monday 2000, Quit and Stay Quit Monday, Move it Monday, The Monday Mile, and others.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101688169

America Could Be Vegan by 2050
http://www.ecorazzi.com/2014/03/13/america-could-be-vegan-by-2050/

America Could Be Vegan by 2050
by Lindsey Little March 13, 2014

The founder and director of Catskill Animal Sanctuary, Kathy Stevens, thinks America could be vegan by 2050.

Here’s the evidence:

1. Meat consumption is on the decline, while interest in vegan food is on the rise.

Americans consumed 12.2 percent less meat in 2012 than in 2007. More and more Americans are becoming “flexitarian,” adopting a vegetarian diet more than half of the time. In 2012, a poll found that 16 percent of Americans described themselves as flexitarian. That number is predicted to rise as the Meatless Monday movement has grown to 50 percent national awareness. In addition, Google Trends reported a 3-fold increase in vegan internet searches from 2005 to 2014. This data highlights the fact that vegans aren’t just in cities like L.A., New York and Portland anymore. Plant-based diets are spreading to small towns across the country, as knowledge and resources become more readily available.

2. Supermarkets are adding new vegan products.

<snip>

3. Restaurants are becoming more responsive to vegans.

<snip>

4. The rich and powerful are throwing their money behind vegan start-ups.

<snip>

[anne neville]

125. America is sounding like a bad dream

if this is the future.

[KittyWampus]

49. Jump in with great recipes at PostPunkKitchen. Isa Chandler writes great cookbooks

Recipes that work, taste great and don't require a lot of expensive exotic ingredients. Maybe a few extra ingredient to get started but nothing hard to find. And she is funny as all heck.

I'd recommend her newest cookbook. Maybe check out inter-library loan.

She also has a website for lots of free recipes.

http://www.theppk.com/

To get started immediately:

Meaty Beany Chili w/ Corn Muffins


http://www.theppk.com/2013/10/meat-beany-chili-corn-muffins-video/

[EEO]

22. Vegans will be so much more annoying now.

[ZombieHorde]

33. Non environmentalists have always found environmentalists to be annoying.

Don't litter, don't dump in the river, don't dirty the air, blah, blah, blah.

[EEO]

91. Indeed.

[PatrickforO]

23. Capitalism sucks, doesn't it?

A vegan diet is in fact MUCH better for the planet.

[2naSalit]

25. The only time I eat meat at all

is when I am eating with others and that's what they are serving, then I only take a politely but very small portion and focus on all the others stuff. If I'm still hungry when I get home, I'll have a veggie or some bread or make a juice and have that. If they take me out to eat, I get the veggie menu and choose from that. i don't eat ocean fish but I will eat trout or salmon from my region once in a while but that's maybe ten times a year.

Once you lay off the meat for a few weeks, you stop craving it and other foods start tasting much better. It doesn't take much to actually learn about how to eat a better diet especially if you are trying to reduce animal flesh which can be substituted with dairy and other products that don't require slaughter.

Here's a little incentive and food for thought - this was made several years ago but it's still true only worse given the droughts and all...

[lordsummerisle]

27. Anyone interested in the impact of the livestock industry

Should read Comfortably Unaware by Richard Oppenlander.

[C Moon]

29. :)

[onecent]

31. I can't take this

"ahem"-----Federal----- report too seriously.
Certainly don't take any others they put out there seritusly. I will never give up meat, but I have cut back due to quality AND cost and the lack of safety conrols on all of our food...especially the crap we get from other countries.

Not in my lifetime, probably, but meat will be a rarity and a delicacy within a matters of years I suppose.

[handmade34]

39. all environmental and health groups

say the same thing... the only groups protesting this are the beef and other livestock industries

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meat-and-environment/

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/549

http://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-a-livable-future/projects/meatless_monday/resources/meat_consumption.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/19/eating-a-lot-of-meat-is-hurting-the-environment-and-you-should-stop-top-u-s-nutritional-panel-says/

http://www.fao.org/ag/magazine/0612sp1.htm

............................................

[Gman]

40. I didn't find the word "vegan" anywhere

in the article. Probably because that's not what it said.

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. Odd - the article uses the word 3 times, once in a direct quote from the paper

In its review of scientific studies, the committee highlighted research concluding that a vegan diet had the most potential health benefits.

"The organically grown vegan diet also had the lowest estimated impact on resources and ecosystem quality, and the average Italian diet had the greatest projected impact,” according to the report. “Beef was the single food with the greatest projected impact on the environment; other foods estimated to have high impact included cheese, milk, and seafood."
...
“If people took the time to understand, this is not a meat-free diet and this is not vegan approach, they’d realize this is a healthy dietary pattern with three models that offers consumers a lot of choice,” she said.

That 'lowest estimate impact' quote comes from this appendix - with 57 mentions of 'vegan': http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015-scientific-report/14-appendix-E2/e2-37.asp
and from this section: http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015-scientific-report/10-chapter-5/d5-3.asp
You search function is broken?

[Warpy]

41. Vegan diets take a great time committment

and that's going to go over like a lead balloon in industrialized countries where both spouses work for a living.

Eventually restaurants and frozen foods will step into the breach, but for now the pickings are pretty slim.

Most of the younger people I know are already doing meatless meal days during the week as a way to save on the food bill.

I doubt if the beef industry is going to go away. There's a lot of land out west that isn't arable but will support cattle. People are just going to be eating a lot less of it as time goes on, using it in casseroles and stir fries instead of confronting a 14 oz. slab o cow as an end of the week steak treat every week.

[eShirl]

44. Doesn't have to take a great time commitment.

There are plenty of vegan convenience foods. Canned, cooked beans in particular are a great time saver. It's just as easy to make meatless pizza or lasagna -- you can even buy them frozen!

disclaimer: I am a meat-eating omnivore

[Adrahil]

42. Meh... I eat beef about once a week.

I don't eat a lot of it, but I like it when I do. Not gonna go Vegan. Oh, and I like leather too. Gonna keep using that.

[LiberalElite]

43. Sore losers.

Of course if the conclusion had been pro-meat, they'd say the committee has all the "authority and expertise" in the universe.

[closeupready]

48. Vegan makes me anemic, and I don't want to give up meat.

Or dairy or pork. I'm careful about food sources, though.

[backscatter712]

52. Too much Douglas Adams...

For a second there, I read "Vogon diet best for planet".

Usually, when the Vogons have anything to do with Earth, it ends badly.

[F4lconF16]

59. ...

That wouldn't be good, would it?

Props for Douglas Adams!

[closeupready]

55. Animals are animals, not people.

[closeupready]

58. In civil society, humans have greater rights than animals who are part of humanity's food chain,

correct. And for that matter, we are eventually part of animal's food chain, too.

Human's may not need to exploit animals to survive and thrive, but "need" is not necessary for a human pursuit to be worthwhile.

[closeupready]

61. Animals can not be citizens of society; thus, no, people have no obligation to bestow them with

the same rights as people. Animals may or may not be part of the food chain, but in many (most?) human societies, they have been part of it, and are today.

I agree that torturing animals should be prohibited, but I part ways with you on the rest of your claims.

[closeupready]

63. "It's not a hard concept to grasp." Neither is the concept of torture -

what it is and what it isn't. Tending livestock is not torture. It can be, but it can also be what it is without being torturous.

[closeupready]

65. It need not be.

http://www.sustainabletable.org/248/sustainable-livestock-husbandry

[closeupready]

68. Well you haven't persuaded me. But I wish you well in your efforts.

Peace.

[In_The_Wind]

56. Human meat ???

[arcane1]

67. We're "pro-rape"? Where on Earth are you getting your food from?

What about seafood? Are the fish and shrimp getting raped too?

[arcane1]

73. Can you be bothered to explain that absurdity?

[Throd]

69. Hyperbole and insults do not make a convincing argument for your position.

[Throd]

78. Absolutist twaddle and accusations of "pro-rape and torture"

And I have tried all the substitutes that taste "almost exactly like meat" and they don't. They just...simply...don't

[Throd]

82. You should fire your Marketing Department.

[0nirevets]

54. I myself am transitioning to vegan, but it's slow going

I tried to go veggie before, but it never took. Basically I think it just takes a refocus, or a paradigm shift in food purchases, food planning, and becoming accustomed to finding sources of veggie protein. There are plenty of reasons to go veggie/vegan, and saving the planet is just one of them. Personal health is the best. As we age there are many reasons why eating veggies, or things that grow out of the earth versus things that walk on it, is much more healthy. Veggies are less carcinogenic, produce less bio-accumulation, have a better impact on the digestive tract than meats, and so on, plus being a vegan is life affirming, makes you feel good. But turning the tables on 50+ years of eating meat is no small challenge.

[raven mad]

74. But.............. but............ what about a grilled

moose?

[onecent]

101. I won't be quitting grilling ribe eyes..

Enjoy your vegan stuff all you one my friends....
You need protein to build health bones....but the government can change
that with just one secret ballot I suppose.....Let them.
Always a beef lover!

[Adrahil]

107. Moose meat is ... ahem.... strong....

NOT recommended.

[raven mad]

109. It is NOT! It's just a big overgrown deer -

and ya treat the meat the same way!

[Adrahil]

110. Gotta say that wasn't my experience.....

I eat quite a bit of venison.... My brother in law hunts and deer meat is his primary meat source. Prepared well, it's good. But the moose I had was much, much gamier. Maybe just prepared badly, the but the guy who prepared it seemed to know what he was doing.

[aikoaiko]

77. Eating more meat is how I've been controlling my diabetes.

[mitch96]

80. I went vegan years ago

French fries, corn chips and beer…
Yup, all vegan……...sorta..

Once a month I pig out on fish (fish out?) so I'm not TOTALLY vegan.. Some call it "flexitarian"way of eating. Gives me something to look forward to. 65 years old and on no meds. Sugar is between 75 and 95, bp normal and I feel great… Accept when I over dose on french fries… the hangover is really bad…

m

Never trust a fat vegan...

[The2ndWheel]

81. The resource concentration mechanism we call civilization probably isn't good for the planet either

We're not giving that up.

[Gregorian]

84. Except that the real issue is population, not food.

So why aren't we talking about the heart of the problem instead of dancing all around it? Why not talk about population stabilization through reproductive rights, among other things. Not meat, and compact light bulbs, and all of the zillions of other things that are just bandaids for symptoms?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be talking about these issues, but to talk about them in the absence of discussion of the true problem is foolishness.

[The2ndWheel]

86. Because it's an even more complex issue than food?

Every institution we've built is based on more people doing more things. More taxpayers, more customers. We're not good at splitting a smaller pie. Too many tough choices.

Plus whether we're talking about consumption or population, we don't know what is or is not sustainable. We know what isn't sustainable after. Although even that can be dependent on your particular perspective. During is another matter. We're all still here, so what we're currently doing, and what we did to get here, has been/is sustainable. Otherwise we wouldn't be where we're at.

We got 4 options:

1) More people doing more
2) Fewer people doing more
3) More people doing less
4) Fewer people doing less

1 is basically what we're doing in the big picture. 2 is sort of the developed world at this point. 3 is the developing world to some degree. 4 isn't a society, so it's not really an option, but it can exist.

I don't see how we can escape that. Especially with 1-3 being more people and/or more consumption, each feeding off the other. More food available, more people possible. More people, well we can't just let everyone starve. Everything comes at a cost. Which is why I would tend to say there are no solutions, just more problems.

[Gregorian]

100. What we're doing is only "sustainable" via petroleum use.

It clearly isn't sustainable or we wouldn't be having this conversation, let alone global warming, depleted fisheries, deforestation, acidification of oceans, global dimming, diminishing fresh water supplies. Should I continue?

We have skewed equilibrium from it's natural place to one that is totally unsustainable without the use of massive amounts of energy, to the tune of millions of barrels of oil per day just for the US.

We're way past the sustainable population. At least double, to be very liberal.

[The2ndWheel]

102. Yes, but all that really matters is what it's currently working

Short term always wins out. That's just how life works. You can make a long term plan to eat a huge expensive dinner out at a nice restaurant at the end of the month, but if you don't eat between the start and end of the month, you might not make it to the end of the month.

The problem, as always, is death, and all that we do in order to stop it/push it off. That's why the short term takes precedent. You can die, whenever. In any number of ways.

[Aerows]

97. Bingo!

Soy products can stress the environment even worse than meat eating animals because when they biodegrade they release N₂O. Nitrous Oxide is 300 times worse for the environment than C₂O, and 15 times worse than the main beef (if you will pardon the pun) with cows, sheep, goats and other ruminates, which is CH₄.

[Aerows]

87. I have lamb marinating in the refrigerator

to grill this evening.

Deer in the crock pot rocks.

I haven't eaten enough to duck to have a strong feeling one way or the other.

[KamaAina]

89. I guess my popcorn is vegan if I don't put any butter on it

[Aerows]

98. I lived with a vegan.

I would have lasted exactly 20 days on what she ate. I have issues with underweight as it is, but the lack of viable protein, no dairy (NO DAIRY?!) and the general eww factor of laboratory grown "meat alikes" "cheese alikes" and "egg alikes" was disgusting.

Hens are going to lay eggs. Treat them well, they love you and don't mind you taking their eggs when they will never see a rooster in their lifetime.

Vegans don't seem to understand that. The amount of soy you must process, ferment and labor over to get even a bit of tofu (and the space you need) also seems to escape them.

[Adrahil]

108. I knew a vegan who believed....

... all domestic animals are in the equivalent of slavery. He advocated allowing domestic species to go feral. And owning pets? Sweet Jeebus, that was the worst atrocity of all!

[RebelOne]

90. I became vegetarian about 18 years ago.

I can't do vegan because I love dairy products, especially ice cream and cheese.

[Codeine]

92. There are some remarkable substitutes now.

My (omnivore) kids and wife actually prefer my vegan cheese products over the real stuff, and the only "milk" we drink is almond.

[Aerows]

99. Grow and make your own tofu.

Grow and make your own almond milk.

Hey, nutbags are easy to use to milk the almond, but grow them.

[RebelOne]

104. I hate almonds. n/t

[RebelOne]

103. I have tried the vegan cheese substitutes,

but they just don't satisfy me like the real thing. I do drink soy milk, but not almond because I hate almonds. I buy chocolate or vanilla soy milk.

[Aerows]

114. I'm a huge fan of Peanut Butter

I usually get the Smuckers natural, the kind that clots at the bottom and the oil floats to the top. I just like it that way. You can throw peanut butter into just about any dish that contains pasta or rice with vegetables, and have a healthy meal.

That said, I've endured the vegan lifestyle, and I would drop dead if I adhered to it. I love my Red beans and rice, but without cheese, I have no idea how to exist.

[Aerows]

95. Over population is the problem. Even a vegan diet stresses the environment

"Soy products too are not without fault when it comes to CO2 emissions. After harvest, the soybean stalks left behind often biodegrade and produce nitrous oxide – a gas that is 300 times worse for the climate than CO2. What’s more, vast swathes of forest land are often razed to make way for soybean plantations, devastating important ecosystems. Experts from the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama say in Brazil’s Amazon basin alone, around half a million hectares of rainforest land are lost to soy production every year. That translates to the release of around 100 million tons of CO2 annually into the atmosphere. So whether it’s a steak or a veggie burger, relying on local or regional products is almost always the most climate-friendly option."

http://www.dw.de/big-challenges-in-dairy-industrys-quest-to-curb-climate-change/a-15719945

[chernabog]

111. One important point missing

80% of the soy grown on Earth is used to feed livestock

http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/

So no, a vegan diet does not stress the environment at all.

[Aerows]

113. I presented an article

that refutes that.

[chernabog]

115. I know what you posted

Did you read my response? Your article says nothing about 80% of the soy being grown on Earth being used to feed livestock. And virtually all of the soy grown in Brazil is used for livestock feed. Factory Farming is destroying the rainforest in Brazil, that's just a simple fact.

[Aerows]

118. Over population

is destroying Brazil, the rain forest and is leeching every single nutrient out of the soil.

I think we agree on some level, but we disagree on another one. Declining to eat meat is a stop gap of the real problem - there are too many people on the planet. We need to have a change of attitude. It is not necessary to have 6 or 7 children. Our planet cannot sustain that birthrate.

[chernabog]

120. Consumption of animal products is the problem.

"If all food crops were fed directly to humans instead of animals, around 70% more food would be added to the world’s supply, which would be enough to feed 4 billion additional people"

http://gentleworld.org/could-veganism-end-world-hunger/

[Aerows]

121. And how well fed

would those additional 4 billion people be, and how would you house them?

Water shortages are among the most desperate problems that many countries have. Sanitized water is shown to add at least 20 years to the lifespan of a human being.

It isn't just food that is the problem, it is water, housing, sanitation and food.

[chernabog]

122. You're gonna go with the water argument?

It takes about 1600 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of beef.

Here's your dirty water
http://www.farmsanctuary.org/learn/factory-farming/factory-farming-and-the-environment/

[zappaman]

124. Welcome back....

Again!

[undeterred]

96. And its better for your digestion, too

in case you don't care about the environment.

[Zorra]

119. FYI, Planet prefers non-GMO corn fed Vegans. nt

[GliderGuider]

123. Report: Humanitarian diet best for the planet

"If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?"

There are five times as many people on the planet as there are cows. We are the second-largest land animal species by biomass, second only to cattle.

Humans are causing the damage. The responsible action is to set the cattle free and start eating more humans. Human meat has all the nutrients required for good health, though some countries produce specimens that are a little fattier than is optimum for consumption by other humans.

7.3 billion people consume 11 billion tonnes of vegetable crops and 300 million tonnes of animals per year (per FAO). This requires us to appropriate 30% of the world's total land area (the most fertile and productive 30%) for crops and pastures. Our appropriation makes that land unavailable to most wildlife as habitat.

Here are the consequences of human overgrowth:



This is my look at the human population in deep time, with my estimates for sustainable numbers ("sustainable" = species able to survive forever, barring an outside event):



Our species looks to be ready for a numbers correction, any year now.

[Tommy2Tone]

126. Whatever! I ain't giving up my bacon

I am Tommy2Tone not Tofu2Tone.

[chernabog]

127. Whatever is most convenient for you!

Your comment reeks of wingnut

[Adrahil]

128. Why? Because bacon is delicious?

What's wingnutty about loving bacon?

[chernabog]

129. I can think of 2 things

Not caring about the environment and not caring about animals.

[alphafemale]

130. Another vegans are morally superior thread.

Another DU random joy.

[Tommy2Tone]

131. Yep..called me a wingnut because I like bacon

then again most vegans are assholes.

[alphafemale]

132. Food Taliban drive me nuts.

Show them this.

[onehandle]

134. This is an LBN story about facts, not opinion.

And clearly you didn't read my comment.

I'm no vegan.

[Enrique]

133. obama is coming for our meat!