Richard III: Leicester welcomes king's remains

[Faygo Kid]

Source: BBC

King Richard III's remains have returned to Leicester ahead of his reburial.

His funeral cortege entered the city at the historic Bow Bridge after touring landmarks in the county.

Cannons were fired in a salute to the king at Bosworth, where he died in 1485.

The coffin is set to reach Leicester Cathedral at 17:35 GMT, where he will finally be reinterred during a ceremony on Thursday.

Richard's skeleton was found in 2012, in an old friary beneath a car park. . .

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-31990721

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I know, at 1485 this is not news, but the discovery and today's burial certainly is. And I know my fellow DUers (not monarchists, to be sure) are certainly interested in history and archaeology. An extraordinary discovery.

[struggle4progress]

1. Richard III song

[appalachiablue]

10. Amusing & clever. Love Roses, not War. Still wonder about the princes though-

[treestar]

13. lol

covers all claims of Ricardians!

[Blue_Tires]

2. Faygo Kid, thou wert not wont to be so dull

Shall I be plain? I wish the bastards dead,
And I would have it suddenly performed

[Faygo Kid]

5. "A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!"

[Polly Hennessey]

3. Richard III

I have always been fascinated by Richard III and his reign. After reading Josephine Tey's, "The Daughter of Time", I was hooked. I don't believe Richard was the villainous murderer as portrayed by some. I really believe Sir Thomas More accused him wrongly. I feel good that Richard is being honored, finally.

[anne neville]

6. Ten thousand people turned out

and lined the streets of Leicester. They threw white roses. He is now lying in state in the Cathedral. My friends who are there say it has been beautiful.

[okasha]

7. Tey's Inspector Grant

concludes the Richard may have had polio as a child. He was wrong about the specific condition, but correct that Richard did have s chronic and at times painful spinal abnormality.

[anne neville]

41. No, most osteopaths have said he had no pain.

His armor would have helped him as well - offering support. Check out Dominic Smee's doc on this.

[Siwsan]

11. He was ruthlessly ambitious, as was Henry Tudor

As were most people who fought and plotted to obtain and keep the crown.

I don't doubt many of the stories about Richard III, but I put them into historical perspective. I am glad he will finally be put in an appropriate resting place. I just wish it had been in York.

[appalachiablue]

4. Interesting esp. that Michael Ibsen, a carpenter descendant of the King attended the event.

[First Speaker]

19. Huh--Richard III has an ancestor named "Ibsen"...?

...does that mean the next time I see a performance of "Richard III", it ends with the King slamming a door on the way out...?

[appalachiablue]

22. The play is one act and the exit is 2-dor, set in a doll house created by the master builder. Lol.

The man is a carpenter from Canada, a descendant, not ancestor through his mother who was DNA tested. Their lineage links to R.'s sister Anne of York, and as the article states he is 'a descendant of R. III's family'.

[TorchTheWitch]

25. He also has the distinctive chin

of Richard III as seen in many paintings of him. Pretty cool.

[appalachiablue]

26. So it seems. It is neato to see a relative today. Once when I worked at a historic property

in the DC metro area, a tall red haired young man came in and introduced himself. Said he was a great, great nephew of TJ and asked if there were any events at the property that he could assist with because he worked as an historic interpreter of TJ. He was so polite, I was a bit bowled over and fairly new on the job so I didn't know the answer but told him I'd leave word with our director. Also I knew that TJ only had daughters, no male heirs or other notable relatives and was a bit suspicious sorry to say. His name is Rob Coles, from Albemarle Co., VA and a curator formerly with Monticello said when I later mentioned it, oh yes he's from the family, the Coles.

http://www.c-ville.com/being_thomas_jefferson_reenactors_impersonate_the_past_speak_to_the_present/#.VRBUt8LD9jo

[okasha]

28. The first thing that struck me

when I saw the facial reconstruction was how much Richard did in fact resemble other members of his family. In historical fiction and some bios he's always been the odd one out-the dark child in a blond family, the short one in a tall family, etc. Check the reconstruction against the portrait of his sister Margaret, though; the resemblance is unmistakable. You can see it in Edward's portrait, too, even though he'd apparently begun to go to seed by the time it was painted.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. Descendant of his sister, not of Richard III

They tested mitochondrial DNA, which is passed down intact through the female line, to show the similarity with Richard (and thus his mother and sister). They've also analysed the Y chromosome - which shows that somewhere, either between Edward III and Richard III, or Edward III and the 18th century 5th Duke of Beaufort, there was at least one infidelity, and the supposed father was not the real one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30281333

There are no known direct descendants of Richard III - the son from his marriage died before him, and his illegitimate children are not known to have had any children: http://www.richardiii.net/2_2_0_riii_family.php

[appalachiablue]

23. I know, as the article says 'the descendant of the family of Richard III'. Got it, I studied at

Christ's College, Cambridge founded in 1505 by Lady Margaret Beaufort (1443-1509), key figure in The War of the Roses, mother of King Henry VII, grandmother of Henry VIII of England and matriarch of the House of Tudor. See# 17. post-

[Historic NY]

29. He made the coffin.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/21/europe/richard-iii-leicester-coffin/

[appalachiablue]

31. Saw that, very nice.

[libdem4life]

8. As an Anthropology Minor, this is huge. I hadn't seen it. Car Park...guess he got "driven over"

in more ways than one.

[Siwsan]

12. John Knox, leader of the Scottish Reformation, is also buried beneath a car park

It's spot 23 in the car park next to St Giles Cathedral, Edinburgh.

[libdem4life]

14. They should dig him up and give him a decent burial, if they are sure he's there.

[Siwsan]

16. Well, there is a plaque to mark the spot

There has to be an interesting story behind why they paved over his grave. He was a pretty fire and brimstone kind of preacher, so maybe they were afraid to disturb his final resting spot, for fear of spectral retribution??

[T_i_B]

39. Famous for his book "The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Blast_of_the_Trumpet_Against_the_Monstruous_Regiment_of_Women

[Siwsan]

40. Yes, he was definitely NOT a fan of Mary, Queen of Scots

Or, Good Queen Bess, either.

[libdem4life]

46. Those Scots...never satisfied. LOL. He was a bit picky, as I recall. Still, he made it into the

history books, and not all achieved that honor.

[eppur_se_muova]

48. Interesting ! Explains this title ...

Most readers are unaware of the connection, I'm sure.

[TorchTheWitch]

27. I'm sorry you missed it - fascinating stuff

What a thrill that they found the remains, and then the examination of the skeleton, the discovery of wounds as described in reports of his slaying and then the DNA testing for confirmation. I was following along at the time, and it really was very exciting all the way along.

[Zipgun]

9. It's still a shame they could not agree on a better sarcophagus. The thing looks a like a shoe box.

The could have done so much better.

[Siwsan]

17. Since his DNA identifying descendant made it, I think it's a lovely tribute

And I suspect it will be placed in a suitable memorial.

[Zipgun]

34. Leicester Cathedral nt.

[charlyvi]

18. It's built of English oak.....

brought in from Cornwall. I think it's lovely.

[okasha]

21. That is the coffin.

The stone sarcophagus is in the Cathedral. It's not elaborate, but quite beautiful in its simplicity and clean lines.

[Zipgun]

33. If it didn't have the cross cut into it (just two lines bisecting) it would look like a big bench or

coffee table. Just too plain. Villain or Hero, probably quite a bit of both, he was a medieval warrior king, I just don't think it reflects that. Shouldn't look like something you would sit on while looking at the rest of the Cathedral.

[Matilda]

36. I'm in agreement with that.

Stunning tomb if he died last week, but not quite right for a medieval king.

I prefer the design made for the Richard III Society:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]


Clean lines, but richer design, and far more appropriate for a king.

[Zipgun]

45. I like this one, much better.

Just enough ornamentation to really invoke a medieval feel, but still have a clean modern look.

[Sky Masterson]

15. Maybe it will help their futbol team escape relegation.

Which is impossible.

[T_i_B]

38. Oh York City can definetly escape relegation!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/york-city

[Marrah_G]

24. I think it's amazing

Thank you for posting this. I just finished reading all the Phillippa Gregory novels based on the period. Fascinating.

[DonCoquixote]

30. a teelling thing about this

is that one of the reserachers was hoping to prove that Richard II was not deformed; she thought it was a device of shakespeare. Turns out this fellow's spine was seriously curved.

[Hekate]

32. I remember the photo of his skeletal remains where they were found...

It looked like the most horrible case of scoliosis -- whatever the actual disease was, it was an unmistakable deformity.

The anthropologists detailed how battered his remains were as well: he was killed 6 ways from Sunday -- his enemies wanted him good and dead.

[Ironing Man]

35. the battle injuries...

i'd be wary of taking the number/severity of his injuries as evidence of personal dislike - we know from Tudor records that he came astonishingly close to killing Henry Tudor, he smashed into Henrys' immediate party and cut his standard bearer (Sir John Cheney, a 6ft 2, 16 stone monster of a man) near clean in half.

if Richard had got another 10ft or so, Henry Tudor would be an obscure answer in a pub quiz - he was a formidable soldier, and the number/severity of his injuries says far more about the panic he caused in HT's ranks and the force required to subdue him than it does about personal feelings.

the only 'personal' injury we know he suffered was a post-mortem stab wound to his backside - almost certainly administered once he had been stripped and slung over a horse.

the event yesterday wasn't to my personal taste, but i'm glad he has a marked resting place. interestingly, his tomb will not be very different to that accorded him by Henry VII in the 1490's...

[Matilda]

37. According to the experts,

it wasn't extremely severe.

If it had been, he could never have wielded a sword in battle, and he was an expert soldier.

If you read the account of Bosworth, it's clear a severely handicapped man couldn't have achieved what he did.

[anne neville]

43. The King died in a melee.

The melee was the hand to hand combat that occurred once they dismounted. Typical medieval battle tactic. Yes, exceedingly brutish but not atypical. Check out the skeletons from the battle of Towton! Makes Bosworth look like a disco party. Luckily, his face was not touched.

[anne neville]

42. Richard the Third was not deformed.

He had scoliosis which did not show through his garments. Only his family, certain servants would have known this. Then it became more widely known after he was stripped and flung across a horse. Check out the Dominic Smee documentary which shows a young man with the same curvature. He looks perfectly normal.

[tavernier]

44. It is a big deal to history buffs.

I haven't formally studied this subject as thoroughly as others, but I have read a number of historical novels that take both sides on the character of Richard, and the question of his guilt or innocence concerning the death of the princes.

I am happy to see this king receive a proper burial and memorial, but at the same time I feel a shadow that saddens the event. Too bad that truth can't be dug up from the past as easily as skeletal remains.

[Ironing Man]

47. legacy...

its a pity that Richard III is somehow defined by the question of the princes - there are half a dozen English monarchs regarded as 'great' who have episodes in their histories that equal the Princes 'issue', but we just accept that sometimes the grease of stability is the blood of innocents, or that 'great' kings can have less attractive episodes that don't blot their overall copybook.

to be part of the mix is fine, but should two deaths overshadow legal and constitutional reform, the final retaking of Berwick-upon-tweed and the settlement of the English-Scottish border, and 14 years of good, stable reconciliatry government of the north?

no one bats an eyelid at the 20,000 dead of Towton, or the death of Henry VI at Edward IV's hands...

[tavernier]

49. War is war,

but older adult males, fathers, uncles, normally are the protectors of the family unit. It seems to go against nature and all the laws of decency that they become the predators instead of the defenders.

It does matter.

[anne neville]

50. The problem is there is no evidence of death.

No bodies, nothing. Just a rumor out of France started by its king and his cronies, Henry Tudor and his mother.

As a bit of interest, it is a Tyrell family story that the boys were received at Gipping Hall, the Tyrell estate, after Richard took the Crown. The family still believes that the boys were evacuated from there to Flanders where they disappeared into history. May be myth but a lovely myth.

[tavernier]

52. In 1674

workmen at the Tower dug up a wooden box containing two small human skeletons. The bones were found in the ground near the White Tower, which is close to one reported site of their burial. The bones were widely accepted at the time as those of the princes, but this has not been proven. King Charles II had the bones buried within Westminster Abbey.
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Not sure if this is definitive, but I think it's a pretty strong clue. I wonder if they will do DNA some day.

[anne neville]

53. Thomas More said the bodies were removed from the Tower after the initial burial.

Of course, More was a fantasist in all of this.

The two bodies found were in a trunk filled with animal bones. All we know is that they are two young people of unknown sex. The older appears to have a jaw disease - something not mentioned in any history of Edward V. The bodies were found at Roman-era level. The tower was built upon ancient forts.

It would be nice to examine the bones but the Queen refuses. Perhaps Charles will allow it one day.

[Colorado Vince]

51. i'm no anglophile

But wasn't Richard III a murderous bastard?

[DavidDvorkin]

54. According to the history written by his enemies, yes

He seems to have been more complex than that, and he lived in a complex and murderous era.