Two police officers are shot in Ferguson

[alp227]

Source: st. louis post-dispatch

FERGUSON • Two police officers were hit by gunfire early Thursday outside the Ferguson police department.

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-police-officers-are-shot-in-ferguson/article_eda6589f-d0fc-5420-8489-787a218a6d83.html

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very short article at this point

[TDale313]

2. I just saw this.

This is bad news. Really. I hope things can stay peaceful, and I hope the cops are ok. This has the potential to ignite an already volatile situation.

[jtuck004]

8. "...stay peaceful"< "stay"? They haven't been peaceful for a long time, if you are black. n/t

[TDale313]

15. You're right, of course

poor choice of words, probably, but still hoping things aren't about to take a turn for the worse. My support is totally with the protesters and the citizens of Ferguson. My concern was that this could escalate things on both sides and cause more people to get hurt.

[jtuck004]

25. I'm not so sure it isn't necessary. Everyone is all up in arms about peace now that white folks

are at risk. But the people who created this, the officers and the taxpayers who have been paying them, are still there. 2 or 3 token firings for a decade of that kind of treatment? A stinking little lawsuit that takes forever? Please.

People concerned that things might get bad need to stop and realize things have been bad for some time. This isn't worse, just different.

The real problem is that it is very likely that little will change. I know people hope, but I have been listening to their bullshit since the 60's, and in many ways it is more dangerous to be black, or even just non-white, today than it was then. Back then these things were hidden because people were shamed by their behavior. Today they are out in the open while people spend their lives justifying, making reasons as to why people have to be treated as less than human, and the government comes along with policies or allowing behaivor which makes non-white lives (and thus all of ours) even harder and more deadly.

Despite the gestures, virtually all of the thousands of people who made this possible are still going to be there, they are still going to be racists or in denial, and they have taught their children to be the same - the same way they learned. I know, I was in class with their parents and a few of them. Not that school, but the same people were doing the same things all across the country.

So, at best, black folk will reach a state where they might not be shot as much, or beat up as much, or have to pay too undeserved tickets. But the things that build wealth will still be, largely, denied to them, their kids will still be treated like second class citizens at school, and they will still walk down the street knowing that the people on the other side of the curtains will never, ever, see them as whole human beings. And they still might get shot.

This is a little like celebrating because people are hoping that things are going to get marginally better on the plantation.

I think there are years of killings ahead.

[RobinA]

33. Necessary?

Tell that to the family of the cop who just got shot dead in Philadelphia.

[TDale313]

57. violence isn't the answer

Did you see the arsenal this police force has? You can make the case that the cops had it coming if you want, but it won't be just the cops who get hurt. This gives them an excuse to come in even more aggressively against the protesters and community. That's part of my point. You can't outgun them. Setting the moral issues aside, violent protest imo is counterproductive.

[jtuck004]

79. You can't outgun them. That is correct. But you can outthink, out maneurver, win.

Violence is a tactic, and sometimes the one that gets things moving in the right direction. Non-violence is another. Many tactics have their place.

Ask the Danes at the Free Schools, the people who own Mondragan, the Indians who were freed from colonialism by the German's attacks on the English. They faced down murderous tyrants and armies, not just the local Barneys and the taxpayers who support them.

&quot Bloomberg) -- St. Louis County police and the Missouri State Highway Patrol are taking over security for protests in Ferguson after two officers were shot in the city today."

All the had were excusees for not doing this over a year ago when it was clear to all the white folk what was going on, when it was just the black folks being imprisoned unfairly, used as a source of revenue, killed? THAT would have been the moral thing to do.

Fact remains, it didn't happen until this violence occurred. Am I arguing for violence? No. But I am not one to discard tools until what I am building is finished, either.

And even if it is not a tactic, anyone who thinks this isn't a natural outgrowth of oppression is naive. It is going to happen, and we have to deal with it. I see it as a natural outgrowth, engineered by the oppression of the past few hundred years.

Regardless, I am not condescending enough to think I know better than the people who have to live under this oppression how they should act. The white folks there have been doing that for way too long, and I prefer not to stand with them. Your mileage may vary.

[jwirr]

60. I do not think that this would be the answer that Dr. King would have suggested. In the 60s he

saw violence as a defeat. When the marchers back then lost site of the non-violent message of their marches that is when they lost their power. They lost the high ground - the moral ground. That is how this is going to effect the young marchers who have been so careful to follow Dr. Kings methods up until now.

[jtuck004]

77. It's not called moral high ground under the thumb of the oppressor. It's called a plantation. n/t

[jwirr]

82. I was not thinking about what the oppressor thinks. I do not really care what the opperssor

is thinking or what they consider high ground.

What I was trying to say is that the very act of refusing to use violence IS the high ground. It is an act of courage and patience. The high ground that matters is what the protester is thinking and what the PTB see it to be.

MLK's enemies thought he was the worst thing ever but President LBJ and other races including some whites understood that it was a courageous act that addressed a wrong. It was the courage to speak out to power. The fact that the marchers did not drop to the lows of their oppressors was very significant. That is what gave them power in the end. The oppressors lost the first battle.

Unfortunately we are now fighting the second battle.

[jtuck004]

85. "I do not really care what the opperssor View profile is thinking"< That's a strategic mistake.

Perhaps one of the reasons we are still fighting the battle.

You can have whatever view you want, but in my view the high ground is winning your freedom. And the tactics are whatever they need to be.

Despite all the self-serving back-patting over who was courageous, the oppressors have lost little, and it is very likely to get worse.

[jwirr]

86. But becoming like the oppressors in not going to get anything but contempt from the people who

can do something about this situation. If I start to worry about what the oppressor thinks then I am focusing on their needs not those of the oppressed.

[jtuck004]

88. Pretty funny. You care precisely what the oppressor thinks. That is what you are protesting against.

Just keeping the plantation going to pretend one is non-violent is just enabling another form of oppression.

You should also note: the countries that defeated the Nazi's didn't become them, the oppressed who created Mondragon under the dictator didn't become dictators, the Indians didn't become Colonialists after the Germans blew up the English to free them.

You don't HAVE to become like your oppressor, though Alinsky would tell us that is the natural course of events. On the other hand, the U.S. does seem to be become like the terrorists it fights against, so you do have a point, in that it is something to guard against.

When fighting an enemy that will kill you it is often true that you may have to defend yourself with deadly force. But there are always those who come up with a reason to not engage, and let someone else take the pain for their freedom.

They are the reason we are still fighting

[jwirr]

89. I think you totally missed my point. If you want non-violence to work it cannot work if it turns

violent. The power that non-violent protest has is in that it is on higher ground than the oppressor. In example: the protesters in Selma 50 years ago were not blamed because they were NOT in the wrong - their oppressors clearly were. And the protesters were not working to stay on the plantation. In fact they were protesting for just the opposite.

I watched the events in Selma 50 years ago on tv in my safe living room. I was horrified at what I saw. I don't think I would have had the same reaction had it been a two sided gun fight.

[jtuck004]

90. You bring up missing the point. Those people would have been dead if people with more guns had not

stepped in. That's what they were counting on, pleading or, creating strategies to induce.

Their end goal, obviously, was to get access to the same freedom that their oppressors had, to be respected and appreciated, not simply tolerated. But, and this is where King and others differ from you according to their writings, they cared deeply about what their opponents were thinking. And they knew that thinking would not change. Thus, those people had to be compelled with greater force than they could bring to bear.

I know their thinking didn't change, because years later, in 1971, those same parents came to the high schools in Oklahoma City and taught their kids to overturn their buses, scream at black folk. Hate them. The kids got in, but only because greater force was brought to bear.

Today those same people clearly enjoy even greater freedom, even reveling in their racism and murder. That's not progress. A lot of those changes have been rolled back or ignored or schemed around, and that's not progress either. Making the fight between black and white instead of between the rich and everyone else wasn't going to insure progress either, and may well be more why we are still fighting the same fucking fights we were fighting decades ago.

The need for force is still with us, despite pretending otherwise. And maybe it's time to acknowledge the failures, lest everyone keep fooling themselves and never really addressing the problem.

You see it differently, and that's fine. We need people to argue against it.

[jwirr]

91. When I say I could care less what the oppressors think I mean that they are not going to be allowed

to influence how I think. I will not give in to their demands. And who is pretending the the need to force the issue and the answer is not still with us. I just think the young people in Ferguson MO have the right way of addressing it. And shooting a cop is not part of their answer.

[jtuck004]

92. Hard to argue with success. It brought in new departments to police the demonstrators, the idea

being that they will no longer be targets for locals to mistreat.

But feel free to see it otherwise.

[arcane1]

3. It's starting to fill in

FERGUSON • Two police officers were hit by gunfire early Thursday outside the Ferguson police department.

The shots were fired as police were confronting protesters who had gathered outside the police station.

Ferguson Lt. Col. Al Eickhoff said he didn't think either of the officers were from his department. He also didn't know the extent of their injuries. Eickhoff was not at the scene at the time of the shooting but he said he was headed there.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-police-officers-are-shot-in-ferguson/article_eda6589f-d0fc-5420-8489-787a218a6d83.html

[malokvale77]

19. "Ferguson Lt. Col. Al Eickhoff said he didn't think either of the officers were from his department.

Well, what the hell were they there for?

Just to stir the pot.

[KeepItReal]

4. "one of the officers is a St. Louis County officer and the other a Webster Groves officer"

The shots appeared to come from the direction of a block of homes on Tiffin Avenue that intersects West Florissant Avenue. Witnesses reported two to four shots.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-police-officers-are-shot-in-ferguson/article_eda6589f-d0fc-5420-8489-787a218a6d83.html

Apparently the shots did not originate from the group of protesters.

[pettypace]

5. Prayers for the officers and their families

Very much hope the seriousness of their injuries are negligible.

Otherwise the s will have officially hit the fan in Central Missouri.

[Yallow]

6. 2 Revenue Collectors

Hit by gunfire.

To serve and collect.

I have no idea why anyone would want to shoot at cops.....

Since billionaires don't pay taxes, cops and judges gotta take the money
from the folks that can't defend themselves. The powerless.

Methinks times are a changing.

Now they gonna hire a black police chief to be in charge of a town
that is 66% black?

Sure buddy.

[NaturalHigh]

24. Compassion isn't your strong point.

[justhanginon]

30. Disgusting post! n/t

[ColesCountyDem]

32. Launching your tenure here with a crude and callous post.

Good job!

[leftynyc]

36. I can't believe this repulsive post

survived a jury. Just further evidence the jury system needs so much work.

[Romeo.lima333]

37. not everyone thinks like you do

in ferguson if you told a l.e.o. your name was rich and they found out your name on your birth certificate was richard that could get you a ticket. they funded their deptartment on tickets and court costs

[leftynyc]

38. Yours is the only

answering post that supports the poster. If you think DU is about supporting cop killers, I'm definitely in the wrong place.

[Romeo.lima333]

39. i diont support cop killers

i dont see where that poster supported cop killers either

[leftynyc]

47. Really?

Calling them revenue collectors?

[Romeo.lima333]

48. did you familiarize yourself with the actions of the police- the were used by the city as such

calling them revenue collectors is in no way an endorsement of killing them

[leftynyc]

49. Have you familiarized yourself

with this story enough to realize these were not Ferguson cops?

[Romeo.lima333]

50. nope i ws refering to ferguson cops- even still i dont endorse cop killing and neither did the postr

[leftynyc]

54. Keep defending the indefensible

It looks good on you.

[Skittles]

81. they stereotype all cops as the same

yup

[Yallow]

40. Blowback

E.O.M.

[leftynyc]

43. These were not Ferguson cops

and even if they were, do you think that's an excuse that should be used?

[Ilsa]

41. I saw an interview where a woman was ticketed for

Having a crack in her windshield. She couldn't pay the fine and eventually did jail time for a freaking cracked windshield.

[Romeo.lima333]

42. this is the point to which the poster was refering

isnt she the one who ended up owing 500+ DOLLARS for a little ticket- i believe i saw that as well

[Ilsa]

76. And it affects voting.

People, primarily African Americans, have been targeted for nit-picky violations that most of us could do and never be cited for. So they owe fines which they cannot pay, and then don't vote for fear of being picked up and taken to jail or court. It's a big-time screwing-over by the authorities.

[LarryNM]

7. Just as Things were Looking Better for Ferguson - hmmm ??? eom

[Nobel_Twaddle_III]

9. I hope they find the actual shooter, and of course hope the officers will recover.

But the first thing that comes to my mind is "false flag".
No mater who did the shooting, this will be a big mess.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. My first thought was "KKK".

[shaayecanaan]

26. my first thought was giant lizards

or maybe robots or the British royal family.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

69. I wouldn't rule out the Royals so quickly. They're white you know.

[shaayecanaan]

80. So are the lizards

if they paint themselves white first. I wouldn't put it past the scaly little bastards.

In the spirit of lets-pull-idle-speculation-out-of-our-arse, I vote for lizards.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

83. Oh,...so we'll agree it's chameleons.

[phil89]

53. Based on what exactly?

Bizarre comment

[Spitfire of ATJ]

68. Based on the fact that they want open war.

[TDale313]

18. Certainly possible.

[tblue37]

84. My first thought was to remember a picture of a guy with his rifle aimed at LEOs trying

to do their job at the Bundy ranch. Snipers snipe.

[LarryNM]

10. FWIW CNNI Interview with Chris King - St.Louis American

for about 10 minutes beginning about 2:20am EDT, made mention of involvement of "riot chasers" from "national organizations", he would not name in order to not give them publicity.

[yuiyoshida]

11. The comments are overly racist

that "reverse racism" meme is raising its ugly head again.. and of course they mention Al Sharpton, Eric Holder and the President. Geeze.. Smh.

[LeftOfWest]

14. No such thing as reverse racism. EVER.

EVER.

EVER.

NEVER has there been such a crap shit thing as reverse racism.


There has only been a crap shit thing called RACISM.


Yes to your post.

[yuiyoshida]

16. Yes, I know...

But even on twitter now, the Racists are popping out of the wood work, its horrible. Sickening infact.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ferguson?src=tren

[Cha]

12. Damn it.. I hope they're okay.. mahalo alp

[yuiyoshida]

13. video

[MrMickeysMom]

27. Thanks...

What a way to end yesterday…

This is far from over.

[davidpdx]

45. How about the smart ass remark at the 33 second mark

I can't believe someone would say that after witnessing a shooting.

[romanic]

20. Im beginning to think Ferguson...

is a lost cause. :/ I don't know if the officers were shot by protesters, the KKK or some irate crazy person but this town may never see true peace.

[Rhiannon12866]

21. MSNBC is covering this live

One was shot in the shoulder, the other in the face, but he was conscious, which is a good thing. One officer is 41, 14 years on the force, and the other is 32, with five years of service. They were taken to Barnes Jewish Hospital in St. Louis which is a Level One trauma center and the largest hospital in Missouri.

[Cooley Hurd]

29. Good info - thanks!!!!

[Rhiannon12866]

74. Just turned on the TV and MSNBC still has live coverage

Thomas Roberts just said that both police officers have been released from the hospital! And no arrests have been made yet.

[BumRushDaShow]

22. Interesting SL Post-Dispatch Observation

From the OP link -

The protesters seemed to be two camps. The first were there to make a point that they weren't satisfied with the resignations of City Manager John Shaw and Police Chief Thomas Jackson. They were chanting in unison.

The other one was volatile, angry, hurling profanities at the police, media and other protesters. Some skirmishes broke out among the factions.

Basically one group who, based on some assessment from news reports and commentators yesterday, wants the mayor to resign, and then the other group is the one that is apparently anti-police and seems prone to non-peaceful protest (mixed in with anarchists).

I am glad the reporter distinguished the groups and didn't lump them altogether in order to marginalize the peaceful protestors.

[romanic]

23. I wonder if there is a clip of the two camps.

If the group hurling profanity had their faces covered or were wearing all black then it sounds like Black Bloc taking advantage of the situation. Or maybe rioters from outside of town wanting more free stuff.
I'd also be suspicious if the other group had more white faces mixed in.

[underpants]

55. Excellent first hand account from a protestor here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6353549

[BumRushDaShow]

78. Thank you for that!

Read through the whole play-by-play. Wow.

[santroy79]

28. I hope the cops catch the person who shot the officers

and they pay for what they did with maximum punishment

[Demit]

34. You're right.

That is an ugly suspicion.

The "you people" are your compatriots on Democratic Underground! Do you really believe that there are people here (not the trolls) who would be 'the most vocal about Brown getting what was coming to him'? Is it necessary in your anger to be that contemptuous of DUers?

[romanic]

35. I wouldn't even waste my breath

Seems like this incident is bringing out the cop-haters in full force and anyone who empathizes with the shot officers are seen as mini Darren Wilsons in their eyes. It's not worth even asking them why they think that way.

[Demit]

46. Well, I don't think it's cop-hating, per se.

The poster wasn't hating on cops so much as (what he perceives as) white people being hypocrites.

It's a shame. I would venture to say that the white people here on DU are all people of goodwill. (Well, except for that newbie yesterday who joined specifically to defend the frat house mom & accuse us all of being too judgmental.) I would even guess that the black people here think that too, even as they express bitterness and extreme frustration at the racism they see clearly but that white people are unconscious of. This poster went too far, however. His (her?) accusations don't describe progressives on this board.

[Panich52]

44. Al Jazeera airing presser now.

Police chief pointing out that assailant was not part of gathering crowd.

[whereisjustice]

52. I find it hard to believe that there are no prosecutions resulting from DoJ review, if this gets

whitewashed over like Wall Street crime, people will seek their own means of justice.

Ferguson police ruined thousands of lives in that town. Many now have criminal records based on trumped up charges making them ineligible for employment for the rest of their lives. Those in power engaged in deliberate actions to shatter lives and maintain a population in poverty.

I refuse to believe that the systemic and institutionalized abuse by a large group of conspirators is indemnified by the rule of law.

[F4lconF16]

58. +1000 nt

[underpants]

56. First hand account by protestor here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6353549

[jwirr]

59. Whoever, did the shooting is not helping the situation. This will only make it worse.

[frylock]

61. nobody could've predicted this happening

[leveymg]

62. Shots not from the crowd. Sniper(s). "The home is about four blocks west of the police department."

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-search-for-those-who-shot-officers-in-ferguson-ambush/article_eda6589f-d0fc-5420-8489-787a218a6d83.html

Where have we seen that before? Dara'a? Derna? Kiev? Right out of the spoiler's playbook.

[B2G]

63. There were also reports on Twitter last night

Of 3 people in a white car leaving the scene at a high rate of speed. A woman with long braids was said to be the driver.

Eye witnesses say they saw muzzle flashes a couple hundred yards from the cops.

So what relevance is the distance of the house being searched? Are you trying to propose they were shot from a house 4 blocks away by a sniper?

[leveymg]

64. That's apparently what the cops thought when they searched the attic.

No reports that the shots were from the crowd or closeby - so, sniper(s) is by definition the logical assumption.

[B2G]

67. No, a neighbor told them they thought someone was hiding there

did you read the link you posted?

[leveymg]

71. 125 N Dade Ave @ Tiffin Ave - 2500 ft from Ferg Police Dept.

Not clear from Google Maps whether this house is line of site.

[leveymg]

72. Google street view - probably not line of sight from house to PD

Site is behind the crown of a hill from Ferg police Dept. Not a likely shooters site. Down Tiffan Ave on the other side of the hill, @ #23 in direction of PD, @200 yard looks more likely, if we assume there was a sniper position. That's just a supposition, of course.

[Yallow]

65. "Protesting"

Changes very little.

There are thousands of Fergusons out there.

As the rich get richer the powerless get squeezed harder.

I can't see anything but violence on the horizon.

Sorry for telling it like it is.

I have an idea. Return all the money taken from people illegally with
interest and payment for damage caused.

Like that justice stuff is gonna happen.

[LanternWaste]

66. Rather creative editorial and speculation.

Rather creative editorial and speculation.

Just "telling it like it is" too.

[hamsterjill]

70. My best to the officers and to their families.

There are major, unfair, racial issues in Ferguson. We can all agree to that, I believe. Something drastic and definitive needs to be done to change things. And it needs to be done NOW.

But the answer is not more violence, and certainly not violence toward police officers.

Just as I refuse to lump all protestors into one category and call them all "good" or "bad", I will also refuse to lump each and every single police officer working in Ferguson as either "good" or "bad". Because I see protestors and police officers as individuals - some good and certainly some bad.

I hope these officers will recover, and reports indicate that they will. I also hope that the situation in Ferguson continues to draw the attention that it deserves so that change will be enacted and ALL citizens of Ferguson will be treated fairly and civilly. The report released by the Justice Department, as horrible as it is, is the first tiny step in getting real change for that city. I don't want to see more violence derail that change.

[Enrique]

73. protesters deny the shooter was with them

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/12/us-usa-missouri-shooting-protest-idUSKBN0M80CJ20150312

Protesters at the scene said on social media, however, that the shots did not come from where they were standing.

"The shooter was not with the protesters. The shooter was atop the hill," activist DeRay McKesson said on Twitter.

"I was here. I saw the officer fall. The shot came from at least 500 feet away from the officers," he said.

[leveymg]

75. Look on Google Street view - 500 ft up hill would be @ 23 Tiffan Ave. in direction of house over the

other side of that hill searched by police - 125 N Dade Ave @ Tiffan Ave. See above.