Sen. Rand Paul: "Stop Obama's ammo ban"

[groundloop]

Source: CBS News

As President Obama's administration mulls a proposal to ban armor-piercing "green tip" bullets, Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul is urging his supporters to help thwart the move, calling it a "backdoor route to imposing President Obama's gun control."

"Recently, Obama's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF) announced they will ban .223 M855 ammunition," Paul wrote in a letter posted to the website of his political action committee, RANDPAC. "The BATF has a March 17th deadline to hear public comments on this outrageous assault on the Second Amendment. And I'm counting on your immediate action to help RANDPAC flood the agency with a message from America's pro-gun majority."

The bullets in question were exempted from BATF's restrictions on armor-piercing bullets in 1986 under a determination that they were "primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes." Because the bullet can be used in a number of newer handguns, though, BATF announced last month that it would move to withdraw the exemption........

The administration has backed the move, saying such armor-piercing bullets in handguns could endanger police. "This seems to be an area where everyone should agree: that if there are armor-piercing bullets available that can fit into easily concealed weapons, that it puts our law enforcement at considerably more risk," White House press secretary Josh Earnest said last week. "So I'd put this in the category of common-sense steps that the government can take to protect the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding Americans while also making sure that our law enforcement officers who are walking the beat every day can do their jobs just a little bit more safely."

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/senator-rand-paul-stop-obamas-armor-piercing-green-tip-ammo-ban/

---

Senator Aqua-Buddha is looking for attention again. EVERYBODY who target shoots or hunts NEEDS armor-piercing ammunition, don't they?

[Travis_0004]

1. All rifle ammo will penetrate a handgun rated vest

M855 is underpowered compared to a lot of other 5.56 ammo, so this is a dumb law that solves nothing, so I agree with Rand Paul on this issue.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

8. Makes sense.

NOT!

[Cryptoad]

10. An Idiot for every Gun. A Gun for ever Idiot.....

is not enough for the GOP -NRA idiots..... we gotta have ammo that can kill five or six houses over when gun thugs get out show their asses ! geeeez You gun thugs are you own biggest threat. You dont have to be a rocket surgeon to realize that this path yall are on will one day create such a backlash that owning defense or sporting guns will become a thing of the past...... the 9th amend provides the bases for such change and its coming ,,,,,,,, sooner or later.... its coming. Thanks you gun thugs!

[Travis_0004]

19. .223 is a very small round.

It can not be used for hunting deer in most states because it it considered too small, so im not sure what you are rambling on about.

[Cryptoad]

23. Who the fuck said anything about hunting with a small caliber bullet?

geeez..... you just make it up as you type? and you acuse me of rambling,,,,,,

[NaturalHigh]

21. Cool story bro.

None of it is true, but it's entertaining nonetheless.

[Cryptoad]

24. True?

[hack89]

25. Just you wait - the motto of gun control for 20 years and counting. Nt

[LanternWaste]

40. No doubt, LaPierre will allow your demographic its own motto...

No doubt, LaPierre will allow your demographic its own motto...

[hack89]

47. President Obama has my back

Because I am the kind of demographic he likes - a life long Democrat active in local politics.

He will pay lip service to gun control while doing nothing stupid. That's why I am comfortable living in a blue state with strict gun laws - he is not going to take my guns away or severely limit my hobby. And President Clinton will be more of the same.

[jmowreader]

28. What ye and Rand may not know...there are now 5.56mm pistols

I have NO idea why the BATF hasn't just declared these things short-barrel rifles and made them subject to NFA regulation, but nope, they're sold as pistols.

If a round (1) can be fired in a pistol and (2) uses a bullet with a hardened core - like the steel core in the SS109, then it is an armor piercing round.

[Travis_0004]

31. Im well aware of AR15 pistols

The atf can not declare them sbr, since they are not intended to be fired from the shoulder.

Since you brough up definations here is what the atf considers AP

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

i. M855 is majority lead.
ii. The jacket is nowhere close to 25% of the weight.

[DetlefK]

2. The correct abbreviation is not BATF. It's OBATF.

Obama's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

There, Senator, corrected that for you.

[Vinca]

3. The second amendment says nothing about ammo, Rand.

[hack89]

26. But the case law does.Nt

[Blue Owl]

4. Rug Doctor also Slug Doctor

n/t

[Cryptoad]

5. snopes

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammoban.asp

[groundloop]

7. Thanks for finding that - a few facts never hurt anyone.

Though they make Rand's arguments a bit harder to swallow.

[blackspade]

6. Paul is a bald faced liar.

There is no constitutional protection for ammo. Just arms.

[derby378]

13. There is no Constitutional protection for ink - just the printing press

See how that works? You're welcome.

[blackspade]

17. Ridiculous rejoinder.

But nice try.

[NickB79]

32. Ironically, there IS protection for the ink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Star_Tribune_Co._v._Commissioner

Minneapolis Star Tribune Company v. Commissioner, 460 U.S. 575 (1983), was an opinion of the Supreme Court of the United States overturning a use tax on paper and ink in excess of $100,000 consumed in any calendar year. The Minneapolis Star Tribune initially paid the tax and sued for a refund.

Which implies there would be protection for ammo as well as the firearms that fire them.

[hack89]

27. Have you bothered to look at the case law?

it might be worth your time before making such bold statements.

[blackspade]

34. Not being a lawyer, then no, I haven't

Do you have a case that you're thinking about?

[happyslug]

9. The Law bans Armor piecing PISTOL ammunition....

As long as they were no "Pistols" firing 5.56mm ammunition armor piecing 5.56mm could be made and purchased for the law banning armor piercing bullets ONLY APPLIED TO PISTOLS

Over the last 20 or so years various arms manufacturers have come up with AR-15 actions without a shoulder stock but with a barrel less then 16 inches in length. If a weapon has SHOULDER STOCK and a barrel less then 16 inches (if the barrel is rifle, 18 inches if smoothbore) it is a Short Barrel Rifle (or a sawed off Shotgun if the barrel is smooth bore) and as a Short Barrel Rifle came under the same regulation as Machine Guns except for th 1986 ban on

One way around this ruling as to short barrel rifles is to make a rifle action with a less then 16 inch barrel but do NOT put a stock on the rifle. It became a "Pistol" if its barrel is less then 16 inches and does NOT have a shoulder stock.

This is a Pistol under Federal Law:



http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2013/11/20/ar-15-pistols-clearing-up-some-misconceptions/

Here is a photo of a Legal "Pistol" and an illegal "Short barrel rifle" marked SBR in the photo:



http://emptormaven.com/2014/04/ar-15-pistol-pdw/

The ban on Armor piecing bullets apply to any ammunition able to be fired from a "PISTOL". Thompson-Center came out with single shot "pistols" in the 1970s in various rifle calibers, and either Congress changed the law or the BATF ruled that a pistol also means a firearm capable of firing two or more rounds without reloading (thus getting around the problem of the Thompson Center "Pistols", I do NOT remember which happened but the Thompson Center was a problem in the early 1980s but then died out in the 1990s).

Thus the dispute is due to the poor definition of "Pistols" and "Short Barrel Rifles" that have been on the books since the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1938. Firearm makers have looked for ways around those restrictions every since. The Federal Government would be better off defining pistols as anything with a barrel less then 16 inches whether the firearm has a stock or not.

[derby378]

14. Why not just outlaw or NFA all AR-type pistols?

Rifles use rifle ammo. Handguns use handgun ammo. If you move against AR-type pistols, you can keep that green-tip ammo on the civilian market, no harm, no foul.

[sir pball]

36. I'd actually support that quite happily.

Sorry if you're a fan of them, but these silly toys are SBRs in all but legal definition (FFS, with the buffer tube, it's the same damn size as an SBR), which I do happen to think should be NFA-regulated. Then again, I think the registry should be reopened too...maybe we have a workable carrot and stick (for both sides) situation here?

[bobclark86]

15. They wanted AR pistols, now 5.56 is pistol ammo...

Good job, guys! They sure thought that one out well enough.

[derby378]

16. If I ever buy an AR rifle, remind me to get one chambered in 6.8 SPC

Only an idiot would try to build a handgun for that round.

[VScott]

46. More on the legal issues surrounding the TC Contender

General legalities

The receiver on a Contender, whether G1 or G2, is the portion of the combined grip/buttstock assembly containing the trigger mechanism, and this is legally considered the serial-numbered gun. Hence, barrels with iron sights, barrels with telescopic sights, and even the hinge pin, are all simply gun parts, with no serial numbers, making the choice of changing cartridges from a multitude of rimfire, centerfire rifle and pistol cartridges, and even shotgun shells, very simple.

It is possible to fit a shoulder stock on a pistol frame in place of a pistol grip, and, when combined with a 16" or longer barrel (see "Thompson Center Arms and the Supreme Court" below), a Contender may be legally converted from a pistol to a rifle or reversed. Although it is technically possible to fit a pistol grip on an original Contender rifle frame, and use a pistol barrel to convert it from being a rifle to a pistol, this is not legal, being an illegal creation of a pistol from a rifle. In order to be able to go back and forth, the receiver must have been originally sold as a pistol, per ATF rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Center_Arms#General_legalities

Thompson/Center Arms and the Supreme Court

In the case of United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. (1992), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the company's favor by deciding that the rifle conversion kit that Thompson sold for their pistols did not constitute a short-barreled rifle under the National Firearms Act of 1934.[12]

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms contended that the mere possession of a pistol having a barrel less than sixteen inches (406 mm) long, a shoulder stock, and a rifle-length (more than sixteen inches) barrel constituted constructive intent to "make" an illegal short-barreled rifle (SBR) (by combining the pistol's frame, the pistol-length barrel, and the shoulder stock) even if the shoulder stock was intended to be used only with the rifle-length barrel.

The Supreme Court disagreed and its decision clarified the meaning of the term "make" in the National Firearms Act by stating that the mere possession of components that theoretically could be assembled in an illegal configuration was not in itself a violation as long as the components could also be assembled into a legal configuration.[13]

One argument raised was the example of ammonium-nitrate fertilizer and Diesel oil, which can very often be found together in a farmer's possession (fertilizer for the crops, fuel for the tractor.) Both are lawful, and while they can easily be assembled into the high explosive known as ANFO, possession of both has never been held to imply (without other evidence) that a farmer was "making" explosives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Center_Arms#Thompson.2FCenter_Arms_and_the_Supreme_Court

[Lancero]

11. This is a video I came across a few years back on Gun Control

To date, it's still my favorite one.

[hollowdweller]

12. This issue is the bread and butter of the GOP

Stoking fear of democrats enacting gun control is what turned my state from Blue to red.

As long as the GOP can use this issue a LOT of rural white voters that would be in our column will be in the G0p's instead.

[NaturalHigh]

20. Maybe our party should stop taking the losing side of the gun control issue.

The poorly-named "assault weapon" ban was a big part of the 1994 mid-term debacle.

[Jefferson23]

18. Yea, let's do everything in our power to keep the status quo of our gun culture alive.

It's been working out so well for us.



At Least 194 Children Have Been Shot to Death Since Newtown
The NRA says arming more adults will protect kids—but most are killed at home, our investigation shows, often with unsecured guns.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/12/children-killed-guns-newtown-anniversary

NRA solidifies their control through lobby money, when Americans demand en masse, public
funded elections, these reprehensible people will begin to see their control dry up.

Fuck them all in the mean time.

[freshwest]

30. They'll say Newtown was a false flag and no one got killed. It never ends. n/t

[Jefferson23]

33. Oh they're a cheery bunch in my state..off they go this week to

defend their rights. As you say, it never ends.

Ack warning if you decide to click on their link:

http://www.ccdl.us/

[jpak]

22. BAN GUN NUT COP KILLER AMMO

yup

[sir pball]

35. So, all 5.56 ammo? Better to ban gunnut cop killer "handguns" IMHO.

Sure, at 600m against a steel helmet, SS109 will by design beat plain-lead ball, but at close range against 9mm-rated soft body armor, literally any commercially available 5.56/.223 ammo is going to go clean through both sides of the vest. Much better, and I seriously mean this and would support it, to lump any short-barreled repeating rifle-caliber firearm under the NFA regardless of stock style.

So, by all means, please do support a proposed regulation (that won't happen btw, check the ATF's definition of AP) that will have literally zero positive effect but worlds, galaxies, of backlash. And you wonder why it's one step forward, ten steps back with you guys..

[blueridge3210]

29. ATF has already walked this back.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Publications/notice_of_publishing_error.pdf

"On Feb. 13, 2015, ATF released for public comment a proposed framework to guide its determination on what ammunition is "primarily intended for sporting purposes" for purposes of granting exemptions to the Gun Control Act’s prohibition on armor piecing ammunition. The posted framework is only a proposal, posted for the purpose of receiving public comment, and no final determinations have been made.
Media reports have noted that the 2014 ATF Regulation Guide published online does not contain a listing of the exemptions for armor piercing ammunition, and conclude that the absence of this listing indicates these exemptions have been rescinded. This is not the case.
Please be advised that ATF has not rescinded any armor piercing ammunition exemption, and the fact they are not listed in the 2014 online edition of the regulations was an error which has no legal impact on the validity of the exemptions. The existing exemptions for armor piercing ammunition, which apply to 5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855 projectiles (identified by a green coating on the projectile tip), and the U.S .30-06 M2AP projectile (identified by a black coating on the projectile tip), remain in effect.
The listing of Armor Piercing Ammunition exemptions can be found in the 2005 ATF Regulation Guide on page 166, which is posted here.
The 2014 Regulation Guide will be corrected in PDF format to include the listing of armor piercing ammunition exemptions and posted shortly. The e-book/iBook version of the Regulation Guide will be corrected in the near future. ATF apologizes for any confusion caused by this publishing error. "

[sir pball]

37. Regardless, once the lawyers look at it, it won't be enacted - or if it is, it'll fall in court.

The detailed legal definition of AP that the ATF is proposing applies to SS109 is (emphasis added)

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium

Here's a handily-labeled cross-section of an SS109 bullet:


Now, I'm no lawyer, but that "projectile" certainly doesn't look like it has a "projectile core" that's "entirely" made of "tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium". While I don't necessarily think the ATF will be self-consistent and not enact the proposed restriction, if they are so spectacularly incompetent as to do it the first judge who sees that picture and reads that law is going to instantly toss the regulation with every kind of judicial prejudice possible.

[blueridge3210]

38. Oh, I fully agree.

That may be why they walked it back so quickly, in order to avoid losing in court and the subsequent legal implications. I'd like to believe the "publishing error" story, but the Feds don't have a lot of credibility in this area. A walk back preserves the right to try again; losing in court could result in a finding that has much broader implications than just the M855 rounds at issue.

[NickB79]

43. Ack, no wonder that stuff shoots for shit in my rifles

Horrible consistency in it's construction.

Just another reason to stick to regular old FMJ's.

[yurbud]

39. what does the average joe need armor piercing bullets for?

[former9thward]

41. All rifle rounds will pierce the type of vest a cop wears.

Their vests are not the type our military wears which have titanium plates.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

44. I'll believe it when I see it on Mythbusters ...

Given the slower speed of rifle propellant, a rifle bullet shot from a pistol probably isn't going 2800 feet per second, or whatever it's rated at.

So I'm not sure what it would pierce.

But with a vest, a ballistic-gel dummy, and a camera, science could happen.

[NickB79]

49. Gunpowder makers publish reviewed load data

This is one of the biggest gunpowder companies around.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2014/09/a-look-at-ar-pistol-ballistics/

We took one of Rock River Arms piston-driven pistols out for a test of three popular bullet weights to see how much velocity was lost to its 8-inch barrel. The LAR – PPS is very accurate and fun to shoot once you get past the muzzle blast and sharp report. Without Stoner’s gas system, no buffer tube is required so the overall length is a short 17.5 inches. It weighs in at five pounds.

All of the tested loads used Ramshot TAC for a propellant along with Winchester cases and primers. Each of the load choices were made from our 5.0 Guide maximum loads for the .223 Remington and operated at or below the SAAMI maximum of 55,000 psi.

The first tested load used a 40 grain Sierra Blitzking using 27.6 grains of TAC. In our 24-inch pressure barrel, this load produced 3715 fps recorded nine feet from the muzzle. It was the most diminished round tested compared to the full-length barrel.

Average velocity from the Blitzking averaged 2532 fps and 570ft/lbs. of muzzle energy. The velocity loss in this case was 74 fps per-inch of barrel lost to the tested 24-inch barrel. The percentages tell the story more plainly. The pistol velocity decreased 32% over the rifle with a 53% loss of energy.

The Sierra Spitzer Boattail performed better from the pistol. This 55 grain bullet pushed by 25.5 grains of TAC averaged 3281 fps from the 24-inch test barrel with 1315 ft/lbs of energy. The pistol averaged 2327 fps and 662 ft/lbs, a decrease of 29% in velocity and 50% in energy.

Horrible ballistics, frankly, but still pushing over 2000 fps from a VERY short barrel, which is more than fast enough to penetrate Kevlar.

[NickB79]

42. Grandpa's 100-yr old .30-30 deer rifle with regular lead ammo will penetrate a Kevlar vest

By virtue of their velocity, ALL rifle rounds made in the past 100 years are technically "armor-piercing".

Replace the steel penetrator in the ammo in question with regular old lead, and it will still blast through a vest.

[VScott]

45. ATF Backs off M855 ban

And the 2nd amendment wins keep marching on!

Notice to those Commenting on the Armor Piercing Ammunition Exemption Framework

Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.

Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html

[NaturalHigh]

48. +1