Oklahoma legislative committee questions legality of Advanced Placement courses in public schools

[alp227]

Source: Tulsa World

OKLAHOMA CITY — Some opponents of Common Core apparently have now turned their guns on Advanced Placement courses.

The legality of teaching Advanced Placement courses in Oklahoma public schools was raised Monday during a House Common Education Committee hearing on a bill aimed at the AP U.S. history guidelines.

That measure, House Bill 1380, by Rep. Dan Fisher, R-Yukon, would direct the state Board of Education to review those guidelines and bar the use of state funds for AP U.S. history courses.

During discussion and debate, however, it was suggested that AP courses are similar to Common Core, in that they could be construed as an attempt to impose a national curriculum on American schools.

Read more: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/oklahoma-legislative-committee-questions-legality-of-advanced-placement-courses-in/article_2b257556-b62c-5a92-862e-8e9821a29bbc.html

---

As an alumnus of AP courses in high school, let me tell Rep. Fisher: You are full of manure. Here's his contact info. Professional morons like Fisher are why the world laughs at the US.

[Dont call me Shirley]

1. AP courses are similar to rotten to the core!? Let's see, AP courses give HS kids college level

classes. Rotten To The Core was created and implemented to fail public school system. Are they similar? I say no. What say you?

[JDPriestly]

2. The student chooses whether to take AP courses.

By what logic could they impose a national curriculum on American schools.

Here is what I see in this: Private companies want to sell the AP courses on the internet so that kids have to pay even more to get the college credits and advantages in college and college entrance that they get when they take FREE AP courses.

This is another way to make education more expensive and indenture American kids while enriching the already rich.

Horrors!

[Nevernose]

11. Free AP courses and expensive AP tests

At least if you're an intelligent, ambitious kid with the temerity to be born to the wrong parents or live in the wrong neighborhood, because then the tests are really fucking expensive.

[JDPriestly]

21. My children took the tests a long, long time ago. I don't remember paying for the tests but

we probably did. On the other hand, we had no money so I think I would have remembered that.

Maybe the high prices are something new.

[olddad56]

17. I had to pay for the AP courses that my kid took, but compared to the cost of the same courses...

in college, they were dirt cheap. My son took one AP test, Calculus BC, and that was worth 6 college credits and allowed him to skip 2 semesters of Calculus that were required for his major. And he has done just fine in the subsequent 3 math courses he as taken. AP courses are awesome.

[JDPriestly]

22. See my post 21. I don't rremember paying for my children's A courses or exams. But we may have.

[albino65]

3. I see the Oklahoma legislature's point in this

The new mantra of the Republican party has changed from keeping them bare foot and pregnant to just keep everyone stupid. After all, they can't afford to allow intelligence to infiltrate the electorate. That is their job security.

[another_liberal]

4. High school courses where "Jesus done it" ain't ah good enough answer?

We sure don't need nothin' like that there!



(yeah, sarcasm)

[mountain grammy]

5. This is a state that's been a leader in early childhood education..

shame it hasn't made the legislators smarter.

[jmowreader]

9. Well, that's the problem

Republican legislators are not born nor do they attend school. They ooze out of the ground fully formed.

[mountain grammy]

10. sure seems like it.

[Android3.14]

6. Cue the DU folks who also misunderstand Common Core

Here we go again. Carry water for the GOP and call it liberal.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Who are you accusing of carrying water for the GOP?

We have no idea of your opinion about Common Core, so we have no idea which DUers you are attacking. Since the Republicans are split about Common Core, you need to make your accusation clear and explicit.

[Android3.14]

15. You seem to have a misunderstanding of necessity

I have little need to do anything at your direction, but thank you for your concern. It is unnecessary, because my impression is that you know exactly the folks to whom I am referring.

Republicans, by the way, are hardly split on the issue. The only GOP I know of supporting CC is the governor down Florida way.

"The majority of Republican parents -- 58% -- now hold a negative view of Common Core, up from 42% in April, and leaving just 19% viewing it positively. Additionally, significantly more Republicans now have a very negative view of Common Core than a somewhat negative view, 35% vs. 23%."

"Meanwhile, Democratic parents remain in favor of Common Core by about 2-to-1, with 48% viewing it positively and 23% negatively, similar to their views in April. However, unlike Republican opposition, which is relatively strong, Democrats' support is tepid, with most supporters saying they have a somewhat rather than a very positive view of it, 37% vs. 11%."

While Democratic support is only moderately positive, the effort to keep us stupid is largely a Republican initiative.

But here is a little data to back up my assertion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. No, they look pretty evenly split on it

A poll just a few days ago - perhaps their views changed since you last looked:

In the case of Common Core, likely voters were asked whether a candidate’s support for the standards was totally acceptable, mostly acceptable, mostly unacceptable or totally unacceptable. In each of the three states, acceptance of Common Core was higher than hostility among the potential Republican electorate (defined as registered Republicans as well as independents who prefer voting in Republican primaries).

In both New Hampshire and South Carolina, the margin was close, with 47 percent seeing Common Core as acceptable and 46 percent seeing it as mostly or completely unacceptable. In Iowa, the margin was wider, with 56 percent saying Common Core as acceptable and just 36 percent saying it wasn’t.
...
The numbers offer a consolation for Jeb Bush, who announced in December that he was actively exploring a presidential run and was immediately attacked by critics who say his support for Common Core will doom him. Sen. Rand Paul, one of Bush’s many potential rivals, predicted it would be “very very difficult” for Bush to overcome his support for the standards. Conservative writer George Will emphasized that the Core could be Bush’s downfall.
...
Another beneficiary of the poll could be Ohio Gov. John Kasich, who is considering a dark horse presidential bid and has slammed Republican hostility to Common Core as an over-blown “hysteria.”

http://dailycaller.com/2015/02/16/is-common-core-too-toxic-for-republican-primaries-maybe-not/

So, you can see why just claiming there is one 'GOP' position on this doesn't work. Who is 'the GOP' - Jindal and Paul, or Kasich and Bush? Of possible candidates, more seem to be lining up against it, but the 'GOP establishment' ones are more likely to be OK with it.

But you have now clarified what you thought was the GOP position, so we do know what you don't want DUers to say. Thank you.

[Android3.14]

24. Three states, not national

Still, it's a good sign that there are at least some people in the Republican camp that want our populace to have a solid education. The unfortunate part is the minority of so-called progressives who respond with hysteria, misinformation and align themselves with the likes of Glen Beck at the first substantive push for a national curriculum.

[Bandit]

7. impose a national curriculum on American schools.

What pray tell is wrong with that? I think there most definitely should be a "National" Standard and anyone that advocates differently is into destroying education, not bettering it..

[sdfernando]

8. Yes! There are benefits to a somewhat common curriculum.

I grew up in a military family and all of my grade school education was in DoD schools. They had a common curriculum so when a family was reassigned and moved (and we moved a lot!) The kids (me) weren't totally lost when they started up in the new school. Sometimes this happened mid-semester, sometimes over the summer. It was a good solid education including all the fundamentals plus physical education & arts & music. I'm no genius but I (and my siblings) turned out pretty well and we all went to college.

This can really help for kids that move around or need to change schools for whatever reason.

[PosterChild]

14. Absolutly...

...the kids in Mississippi should be getting the same education as the kids in new Hampshire, Vermont , Massachusetts , and new Jersey .

[progree]

12. It emphasizes "what is bad about America" and leaves out "American exceptionalism" so no wonder

Last edited Tue Feb 17, 2015, 09:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Fisher, who has been active in a church-and-state organization called the Black Robe Regiment ( http://www.blackrobereg.org/ ), said the AP U.S. history course framework emphasizes “what is bad about America.” ... Both said the framework omits the concept of “American exceptionalism.”

Sorry, haven't had a chance to look at the Black Robe Reg link yet, though no doubt it is cringeworthy -- gotta get dinner started.

[xocet]

19. Whoops. I was working on a reply for a while and inadvertently effect'ly quoted your reply's title.

You might want to check out, State Rep (OK-R) Dan Fisher's own website's description of himself - cringe-worthy is a apt term:

http://www.bringingbacktheblackrobedregiment.com/dan-fisher.html

Here is a graphic for your troubles - it may or may not be amusing depending on taste:

effect'ly = effectively

[progree]

20. Not a problem at all. Thanks for all the great background in #16 nm

[xocet]

16. The Problem: AP's framework does not properly acknowledge (US) American Exceptionalism...

Oklahoma legislative committee questions legality of Advanced Placement courses in public schools
By RANDY KREHBIEL
World Staff Writer

...


Fisher, who has been active in a church-and-state organization called the Black Robe Regiment, said the AP U.S. history course framework emphasizes “what is bad about America.”

Larry Krieger, a teacher who spoke to the committee via conference call, implied that the AP framework was created by some of the same people responsible for Common Core.

Both said the framework omits the concept of “American exceptionalism.”

The framework has come under fire in several states, including Texas and South Carolina.

...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/oklahoma-legislative-committee-questions-legality-of-advanced-placement-courses-in/article_2b257556-b62c-5a92-862e-8e9821a29bbc.html

Some more about State Rep. Fisher:

Representative Fisher, Dan
District 60 - Republican

...

http://www.okhouse.gov/District.aspx?District=60

Bringing Back the Black Robed Regiment


Dan Fisher

-Senior Pastor, Trinity Baptist Church, Yukon, OK
-One of the first original Pulpit Freedom Pastors
-National leader in the Bringing Back the Black Robed Regiment
-Oklahoma State Representative, District 60

Family and educational background:

Dan Fisher grew up in Van Buren, Arkansas and is a graduate of Van Buren High School, Westark community College and Arkansas Tech University. He and the former Pam Loftin have been married for 31 years and have two children, Jacob, 25 years and wife Brittany, and Rebekah, 20 years and husband Tony Wise. Jacob is presently a student at the Oklahoma State University Medical School in Tulsa and Rebekah is a pre-med student at Southwestern Oklahoma University, in Weatherford, OK. Dan and Pam raise a few horses on their 20 acres just west of Yukon, OK where they live in a log house they built themselves.

...

http://www.bringingbacktheblackrobedregiment.com/dan-fisher.html

The "Black Robe Regiment" seems to be traceable to Beck and Barton though that is probably not the complete story:

What we know about Beck's Black Robe Regiment
Blog ››› August 30, 2010 5:29 PM EDT ››› FAE JENCKS

This weekend, Glenn Beck announced the re-creation of a revolutionary force called the Black Robe Regiment. At his Restoring Honor rally on Saturday, Beck claimed that "our churches have fallen asleep" and that the "thousands of clergy" in the Regiment who subscribe to his particular views on the role of religion in American life, will "start the heart of this nation again and put it where it belongs: our heart with God."

On his radio show this morning, Beck delved into a little more detail about how the group was formed and who, exactly, some of these members of the Regiment are.

Apparently, the idea began with Beck's favorite historian, David Barton. When Beck told Barton he wanted to "get religious leaders together," Barton suggested forming a Black Robe Regiment -- named after what Barton had said was a group of preachers who supported the American Revolution from their pulpits. Beck decided that was "exactly" what he was looking for because it was a movement supposedly like his that was "not about politics."

Beck then described the first meeting he held with "the largest evangelical leaders in the country" some of whom had been involved in the Christian Coalition. Beck explained that at first the leaders he was recruiting were "very skeptical," as David Barton told him, "because of [Beck's] faith." When Beck spoke to these "skeptical" leaders, he apparently told them that "we're about to lose our country, and we need to teach the correct principles of liberty and freedom, and it has nothing to do with politics." He also warned that: "we're all going to lose our religious freedom if we don't" stand together.

...

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/08/30/what-we-know-about-becks-black-robe-regiment/170046

Beck interviewing Barton:

'Glenn Beck': The Black Robe Brigade
Published April 29, 2010

...

BECK: We're back with David Barton, by the way, to learn more about the forgotten history stories. Check out David's DVD set, "The American Heritage Series," available at WallBuilders.com.

All right. We're talking about the Black Regiment, which is now known as the Black Robe Brigade.

BARTON: Right.

BECK: They were responsible for the revolution according to the British. And I mean, everything I read —

BARTON: And John Adams and all the other Founders as well.

...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2010/04/29/glenn-beck-black-robe-brigade/

It seems that Fisher wants to be John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg who anecdotally stripped off his clergyman's robe to reveal an officer's uniform after preaching a farewell sermon to his frontier congregations at Woodstock, VA and thus commenced to recruit 300 for a Virginia regiment in a single day back in 1776. Here is more on that:

Muhlenberg a recruiter for the Revolutionary War?
September 2007

PBS History Detectives host Elyse Luray (left) talks with Mary Redline, library archives/project manager at the Lutheran Seminary at Philadelphia, about a cloak that’s part of the school’s historical collection.

In a History Detectives segment in July, Luray delved into rare period accounts from Lutheran pastor Peter Muhlenberg’s family, friends and contemporaries to learn whether the cloak was really the one Muhlenberg tore from his shoulders during a fiery sermon in January 1776, revealing a uniform. It’s said that he rallied some 300 parishioners to the patriotic cause with that act. While it was determined the robe was authentic, the dramatic disrobing was deemed a myth.

Peter Muhlenberg’s father was Henry Melchior Muhlenberg, considered a founder of U.S. Lutheranism and of many congregations that still exist today.

http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=6654

History Detectives
Season 5, Episode 5
July 23, 2007 (from http://epguides.com/HistoryDetectives/)

...

Investigations: Muhlenberg Robe

...

The Transcript:

Elyse: But what about the story of the disrobing? Gregg says the first mention of Muhlenberg stripping to reveal a rebel uniform comes in 1849, in a biography written by Muhlenberg's great nephew.

Gregg: "Deliberately putting off the gown, which had thus far covered his martial figure, he stood before them a girded warrior." That's what, at least, makes it into print in 1849.

Elyse: But this was nearly 75 years after the event. And Gregg has been unable to find contemporary accounts of Peter Muhlenberg's flamboyant farewell sermon. And just to make sure that I’m perfectly clear, there is absolutely nothing in any written text at this point, that you've been able to find, that talks about the robe before this book?

Greg (sic: Gregg): There are no letters, there are no books. There are no journal entries. There are no memoirs from his sons, for example, that we might expect. Nothing.

...

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/muhlenberg-robe/

For the sake of completeness, here is the webpage of the history professor who was interviewed:

A. Gregg Roeber
Professor of Early Modern History and Religious Studies
Co-Director of Max Kade German-American Research Institute

...

http://history.psu.edu/directory/agr2

Of course, the Representative who wants to do away with Oklahoma's AP US History would rather follow a "historian" like David Barton:

Of course, one wonders what is out there on the topic of the sermon at Woodstock. Here is an interesting article discussing the unlikely veracity of the legendary disrobing/recruiting:

PBS Show Gets it Right with the Story of Peter Muhlenberg's Robe
Chris Rodda
Sat Aug 04, 2007
at 08:15:59 PM EST

As some of you probably already know, I haven't been able to do much writing about history lately because I've been splitting my time between my usual work and doing research for the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF). Bruce Wilson, also on MRFF's research team, has already posted the latest MRFF news here and here, so I'm going to get back to some history with a story I've been looking into for the last few weeks.

With the beating PBS has been taking lately over its unfortunate decision to air the pseudo-documentary, "Wall of Separation," I wanted to write something about one of my favorite PBS programs, one that never fails to live up to the standards that we expect from PBS. In stark contrast to the perpetuation of the religious right's American history myths with its recent airing of"Wall of Separation," a recent episode of PBS's History Detectives included a segment disproving one of the most popular of these myths -- a myth that not only adorns the cover of one of David Barton's books and appears on a mousepad sold by WallBuilders, but is depicted in stone in the U.S. Capitol Building.

The myth is the story of Peter Muhlenberg, the Lutheran minister who, since the mid 1800s, is said to have stood before his congregation in January 1776, and, after delivering a stirring, patriotic farewell sermon, removed his clerical robe to reveal the uniform of a Revolutionary Army officer, enlisting three hundred soldiers for his "German Regiment" on the spot.

...

So, what are the chances that both Kercheval and Smith would have forgotten an event as memorable as Muhlenberg's dramatic sermon and disrobing? ...that Colonel Smith, a nearby army officer in this sparsely populated area, wouldn't have remembered that three hundred soldiers were recruited in a single day? ...that Samuel Kercheval would have omitted such a striking local story of patriotism in a book full of far less significant anecdotes?

...


http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/8/4/201559/9741

[Demeter]

29. These people have been fracked

They've had holes drilled deep in their brains and radioactive salts pumped in, causing brain quakes and contamination of their mental reservoirs. And all for naught..the wells were non-productive!

[bobclark86]

18. Anyone find it a fun coincidence...

that a bunch of jackasses pissed over students being shown the opposite of "American exceptionalism" live in a state that was set aside by the government as an Indian reservation, then those natives -- who were already relocated from the Plains or places like Georgia in violation of other treaties -- are rounded up AGAIN and sent to tiny, poor reservations and/or massacred?

Sorry, I've been sick with some weird-ass bug so far this week and I've been watching Ken Burns' "The West."

[niyad]

28. actually disheartening.

[brooklynite]

25. UPDATE: Oklahoma Bill Would Make Students Study Ten Commandments, 3 Speeches By Reagan

"The bill, authored by Oklahoma Rep. Dan Fisher, designates a total of 58 documents that “shall form the base level of academic content for all United States History courses offered in the schools in the state.” Many of the texts are uncontroversial and undoubtedly covered by the Advanced Placement U.S. History course, such as the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and Gettysburg address. But the bill also has an ideological and religious bent. In addition to 3 speeches by Reagan, the curriculum as includes a speech by George W. Bush but nothing from any Democratic president since Lyndon Johnson."

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/02/18/3624062/oklahoma-bill-banning-ap-us-history-make-students-study-ten-commandments-3-speeches-reagan/

[alp227]

26. If I were a Democrat serving in the state legislature...

I'd introduce an amendment also adding these to the curriculum:
- God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens
- FDR's "Four Freedoms"
- LBJ's "Great Society"

[niyad]

27. and here I thought he was just pissed because he couldn't get into the ap courses.

[blkmusclmachine]

30. It's OK. It's to be expected.