Let's get something straight, nobody favors abortion

[louis c]

I am so sick and tired of listening to this right wing talking point that Hillary, or Kirstin, or Bernie, or Biden, or our new Senator Elect Doug Jones favors abortions. I have never met anyone who "favors abortions".

What I believe in, and what I assume almost everyone who calls themselves Democrats believe in is CHOICE. A woman should choose when, if and with whom to start a family. It's her choice. Unless she's a member of my family and asks for my advice, it's none of my fucking business

And when that woman chooses to give birth, then I am there, as a member of society, to support helping her, her family and her child. I don't mind paying taxes to ensure a healthy life for her and her family. Good jobs, affordable housing, healthcare and any assistance needed.

I don't favor abortion. I favor choice. Let's start making sure we correct the assholes who mischaracterize our position and the position of officials we support.

[qwlauren35]

1. I favor abortion.

I think it should be the number one and only choice for anyone under 17, and definitely 14 or under. I think those who have been raped or subjected to incest should be encouraged to get those fetuses out of their bodies so that they can go on with their lives. Have children when you want to, not when you have to.

[louis c]

4. I don't think you favor abourtion

I think that under certain circumstances, you would advise someone to have the procedure.

The woman still should choose.

But, if that's the way you feel, mandatory abortion under certain circumstances, I stand corrected. I have now heard from someone who does believe in mandatory abortions.

[qwlauren35]

11. Yes, if you're under 13.

I think abortion should be mandatory for anyone under 13. I don't think a 12 year old has any business "choosing" to raise the child, or for that matter, going through with the pregnancy and PLANNING to hand the baby over for adoption, not knowing if the baby will be healthy and that anyone will want it.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

[dembotoz]

15. +1

[louis c]

16. That usually is remanded to a judge to act in her best interests.

Last edited Wed Dec 13, 2017, 04:45 PM - Edit history (1)

But, I understand your concern in the limited circumstances you describe. But there are doctors and psychologists that can assist in that decision.

[The_jackalope]

56. Who said "mandatory"? You assumed it. nt

[louis c]

78. that's how's it's framed from the other side

that's why pro-choice wins votes and pro-abortion loses them.

when you say pro-choice, there's no question what you mean.

I think now you'll get it. I didn't start this discussion to address the abortion, but how we frame the issue.

[tazkcmo]

32. I believe in abortion also

Late-term abortions. Very very late term abortions. Whatever the equivalent in trimesters is to 25 years.















Just joshin. What ever the woman decides.

[Matt_R]

92. Maybe the other A word...

Adoption?

[RandomAccess]

42. Thank you. Me too.

I am 100% in favor of abortion.

It's a strategic blunder to make abortion a terrible, horrible thing. It's not. It's a medical procedure, one that women and their doctors utilize responsibly and reasonably, when necessary.

And of COURSE it's "used as birth control," because technically, that's what it is: a method to control fertility. Women use earlier methods whenever possible, but sometimes they simply fail. NO WOMAN goes ahead with unprotected sex, thinking to herself, "Oh well, I can always have an abortion if I get pregnant."

In fact, NO WOMAN opts for abortion casually, and it's pure misogyny for anyone to suggest they do, ever.

[qwlauren35]

44. Actually...

I was raised to think of abortion in those terms - if I get pregnant, I can always get an abortion.

When I got pregnant, it was harder, but that was the outcome.

Did I have unprotected sex knowing that I could get an abortion? Well? I guess so, the second time. Because I definitely had unprotected sex, I definitely, with no question or consideration of any other option, had an abortion... and went on with my life.

To suggest that no woman has an abortion casually is contrary to what I have seen. It's a lot harder to do nowadays, and there's a lot of pressure to consider other options. But when I was in my 20's and in college, it was what you did if you got pregnant.

[TexasBushwhacker]

53. My ex-sister in law was very casual about having abortions

She was a total failure at using birth control. She had 3 children with 3 different baby daddies and had 13 abortions before she was 30. Thankfully, she had to have a hysterectomy around then.

[The_jackalope]

58. My first wife was much the same.

Screwed anyone that would stand still, lying down not necessary - even when we were married (with my approval, even.) She didn't get pregnant throughout our marriage, though she only used b/c for half of it, but got pinged twice after we separated. No breast-beating, just off to the clinic. She was a wild woman. God I miss her. And the 1970s.

[TexasBushwhacker]

60. I don't think breast beating is necessary

While I would prefer my ex SIL had been responsible about birth control, the only thing worse than 13 abortions would have been having 13 kids she wasn't equipped financially or emotionally to support. She was a mess, but then my brother (her ex-husband) was a mess too.

[The_jackalope]

57. So do I. but I view it as an ecological act.

Every abortion does more to save the other species on this planet than a lifetime of recycling and driving electric cars.

[David__77]

88. Yikes.

...

[Corvo Bianco]

126. Hell yeah!

Years ago I realized the best thing to do for the planet is to kill yourself, and the 2nd best thing is not to have kids.

[Orrex]

2. Abortion is a wedge issue used by pandering chumps to pander to chumps

They equate all abortion--including the morning after pill--with late term abortion carried out at 39 3/4 weeks. Which basically doesn't happen ever, but try telling those dumbasses.


I have no opinion on abortion except to say that it's the woman's decision and I should keep my goddamn nose out of it.

If she consults me, then I have the right to offer her my opinion, but she is under no obligation to act on it.

[Agschmid]

10. Yup.

[infidel621]

18. This! +1

[Mariana]

26. The morning after pill isn't an abortion

in any sense of the word. It works by preventing ovulation, so sperm never meets egg.

[Orrex]

33. I absolutely and unequivocally agree with you 100%

But the troglodytes who vote Republican have decided that it's the same as stabbing a toddler on the playground.

[Mariana]

37. Because they've been lied to.

They've been told it works after conception. Further, they've been encouraged to confuse and conflate Plan B (and daily BC pills, too) with RU486, so you have RWers calling ordinary ordinary BC pills "abortion pills" and freaking out if insurance pays for it.

[Orrex]

50. All true (nt)

[Sophia4]

3. Abortion is also important to the woman for whom pregnancy is a real threat.

That includes women who have a very high risk of dying when giving birth or during pregnancy.

Abortion is also important to families when an embryo in vitro is in serious difficulty and extremely unlikely to survive a birth.

And if you can call it abortion, the process is important to women when a baby is no longer viable or actually dead within the womb. I had a friend who lost her baby and could not face having the process needed to remove the dead embryo from her. The embryo was finally voided by her in the hospital where she was trying to delay the process of removing it.

Miscarriages, losing a baby, can be a devastating experience. A very, very dangerous pregnancy can be harrowing. Women have to be able to choose.

At the same time, no woman should be forced to choose abortion because she can't afford to take care of a baby.

It should be the decision of a woman and her doctors.

But people are so ignorant about the real choices some women face. And women don't talk about these choices very much because they are so painful.

[dembotoz]

20. a life changing experience...have your wifes ob introduces you to her brand new oncologist

advanced aggressive leukemia

she was sinking like a fucking rock....one way or another wife needed to be unpregnant so they could start chemo

testing show fetus was advanced enough so quick c section i became a father earlier than planned....
and chemo began

had the fetus been less developed i have absolutely no doubt the late term abortion would have been done.
and i would have been fine with it.

[Sophia4]

90. None of the antiabortion fanatics think or perhaps even know about the

risks of pregnancy in certain cases.

Fanatics, that is what they are.

[dembotoz]

100. I have been told by them pregnant women are protected by god

Been told I an a liar

Been told I was misinformed

My memory of her cancer is quite clear..

[Mariana]

39. Any pregnancy can become a real threat.

There's no way to know early on, most of the time, which pregnancies or births are going to result in devastating complications.

[uppityperson]

5. I favor abortions.

I also favor root canals.

[Orrex]

9. Not at the same time, I hope

That would be a very busy day.

[RandomAccess]

43. And REALLY unpleasant !

[LexVegas]

6. What if it saves your life? I would favor that.

[louis c]

12. That would be your choice

What part of choice is hard to understand?

an expectant mother may want to put her life at risk to ensure the birth of a child. Another may not. All for good reasons. all each individual's choice.

Why do we complicate this?

A woman is pregnant. She decides to have the baby. Her choice. A woman is pregnant. Decides to terminate a pregnancy. Her choice.

[OriginalGeek]

47. well, with all due respect, and I am honestly not trying to pick a fight

I think you are the one who complicated it when you claimed for everyone that nobody favors abortion. There are many reasons for people to favor abortion and it's good that everyone who might need to has the choice. I favor making that choice as painless and affordable and available as possible.

[louis c]

80. do you think abortion should be mandatory?

that's the vision of the term pro-abortion is in people's minds.

If I'm pro-milk, I want everyone to drink it. If I'm pro-chicken, and want everyone to eat it. If I'm pro-made in America, I want everyone to buy everything made in this country. If I'm pro-anything, it means that's what I want people to do.

If I'm pro-choice, it means I don't want to influence you one way or another. It's your choice. Do you know how much easier that is as a political issue than to explain that your pro-abortion in an effort to convince a person to vote for a specific candidate?

This whole thread has explained to me why the Democrats have such a difficult time winning swing states. We have our people out there advocating for abortions instead of choice. The Republicans try to find a wedge issue to get voters to vote against their own best interest, and we hand them the weapon to beat us. Amazing.

[OriginalGeek]

85. Being pro-milk doesn't mean mandatory milk

Why should being pro-abortion mean mandatory abortion?

And as much as i love milk, it's not really that good for you.


I don't believe there should be any stigma attached to abortion. By saying nobody is pro-abortion it implies there should be.

[louis c]

97. why do we Democrats always tout reduced abortions in our Dems' President term?

Why is it that we enjoy pointing out that fewer abortions were performed during the Obama administration due to more education and access to birth control.

Advocating for milk does mean you want people to drink more milk, why would advocating for abortion not be received as wanting more?

I think we're all on the same page, but there are moderate Republicans that can swing a state like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania or Florida in our favor if we just don't offend them. There are a segment of voters that are very receptive to "choice" on the issue, but are offended by "pro-abortion" rhetoric.

Why do you think the other side uses that phrase? They've already tested it in focus groups. Republicans hate when we use "choice" in framing this issue, because we win some voters over with that framing. Here, we want to argue the point to the detriment of the candidates we're trying to elect.

[OriginalGeek]

133. First there's a difference

Between how we pander to republicans and how I really feel. The only thing I'm commenting on is your initial premise that nobody is pro abortion . Plenty of people are and for many good reasons.

However you want to get moderate republicans on-board with choice is probably ok by me.

[jayschool2013]

7. Sane solution

We all know the most reasonable and effective way to reduce all abortions is relatively simple:
1. Provide for science-based, ongoing, comprehensive and mandatory sex education for all students in K-12 public and private schools, including home schools.
2. Provide easily obtained and free contraception for all Americans.
3. Keep abortion legal and safe for all Americans.
4. Stop trying to legislate morality based on one religion's view of sexuality (unconstitutional, of course).

But that's not going to happen in most states.

[hunter]

63. Your first and second point are very important.

My mom and dad had a mess of kids and it was celebrated by their community, mostly for religious reasons. My wife's family was the same. These were very Catholic traditions. My mom had aspired to be a nun until she crossed paths with a leering hard-drinking, chain-smoking priest she could not respect. Then she met my dad, and the two of them decided they'd practice serial procreation.

At some point my parents, and my wife's parents, realized that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have more children than they could comfortably support, nor was it a good idea for the planet earth's natural environment. But practically speaking, it was stop before you have more kids than fit in a station wagon. Embrace birth control.

I was never hungry as a kid, but there were occasionally long periods of rice and beans and fish my dad caught, vegies and fruit from the garden, government surplus dairy products, and second-hand or hand-me-down clothing. When I was fifteen my mom and dad bought me an authentic pair of Levi 501 jeans new and it was the best present ever. Sadly I grew out of them quickly and my younger brother got to wear them the longest before he handed them down.

By the time I cared about sex, thanks to my parents, I knew most every practical thing I needed to know about sex, including birth control, safe sex, and the ability to recognize abusive relationships. Me and my siblings did not reproduce until we could do so in a responsible fashion, and our overall average is less than two kids apiece. The overall fertility of my wife's siblings is similar.

[GreenEyedLefty]

8. Abortion is health care. I favor it.

It's already safe and legal. Let's keep it that way.

I like to say that if you don't like abortion, don't have one.

[louis c]

13. You favor choice. Certainly...

... if a woman wants to have a child, you wouldn't force her to have an abortion.

Of course abortion has to be accessible, affordable and legal in order to have a free and fair choice. But it's choice we advocate for, not abortion.

[GreenEyedLefty]

21. I'm an advocate for safe, legal abortion.

You said nobody favors abortion. I am correcting you, because I do.

[MrsCoffee]

22. Actually it's both.

Without abortion being provided in many areas, making a choice may not even be possible. The closing of abortion clinics hits poor women the hardest. Travelling to another state for a medical procedure is not an option for them.

[Mariana]

31. Why don't you just stop telling people they don't mean what they say?

What you're doing in this thread is incredibly rude and condescending.

[louis c]

35. How about you stick to your opinions, and I'll stick to mine

It's just that to say you favor abortion plays right into the right wing's hands.

I've seen bumper stickers that say "I'm pro-life" and others that say "I support a woman's right to choose', but I've never seen one that says "I support abortions". Why do you think that is?

You win debates by framing the issue correctly is the answer to the above question, by the way.

[RandomAccess]

45. The way you win the framing issue

is to NOT accede to the right's framing that abortion is a horrible thing under all circumstances and shameful even under the best circumstances.

We need to drag abortion out of the gutter and make it respectable -- you can't do that when bowing to the rightwing's framing.

[louis c]

81. that's why it's framed as choice, not abortion.

[RandomAccess]

86. Quit agreeing with the right that abortion is bad !

That's MY point.

Yes, "Choice" sidesteps the issue nicely, as a rule, but gets us only halfway there because it also subtly supports the right's claim that abortion is bad and shameful, and always to be regretted.

[louis c]

95. I'm sorry. I have a different opinion

Rather than confront a possible voter in an effort to force my opinion on them, and lose the vote. I'd rather give the opinion of the candidate and win the vote.

Every candidate I've ever canvassed for wants this issue framed as choice, not abortion.

We have a funny habit here in Massachusetts. We enjoy electing Democrats. In the rare case of a Republican squeaking through, he or she is always pro-choice.

[Voltaire2]

106. You are welcome to your "different opinion" but your op imposed it on all of us.

[RandomAccess]

134. No reason you can't do both

If you're out actively trying to win votes, sure, Choice is the right way to go.

But I think -- not sure in your case, but I think that if you reread your very first sentence in your OP carefully and thoughtfully, weighing the various ramifications, I think you'd come to see the underlying premise of your Choice framing is AGREEING with the right that abortion is a very bad thing. What's WRONG with "favoring abortions"? It can only be a BAD thing to "favor abortions" if abortions are in and of themselves WRONG, BAD, SHAMEFUL / whatever negative you want to apply.

See what I mean?

No reason you can't continue to use the Choice framing.

But I believe it's bad strategy to retreat to Choice instead of full-throatedly (in select venues, if you will) uplifting abortion as a woman's Constitutionally guaranteed right, and mere medical procedure that's nothing to be ashamed of in any way but celebrated for the empowering event that it is -- giving and validating the individual woman's sovereignty over her own body, her own fertility, her own life.

[louis c]

82. you think "choice" is the Right Wing's description?

No wonder why we're losing swing states.

[Mariana]

54. Stick to your opinions. then.

Don't attempt to correct other people when they tell you their opinions. You don't get to speak for them. Believe it or not, women don't need to be told by you how they really feel about abortion.

[louis c]

84. you missed the whole point of this discussion

I don't care if you have children, abortions, birth control or anything. This is about framing a debate at the door of a stranger in an effort to get him or her to vote for our candidate. I do that leg work. I organize people to do that leg work. The people I support, winning elections, is why we have laws in Massachusetts that favor a women's right to choose. When someone I'm training to canvass for a candidate and they ask me, "what do I say if a voter asks about our candidate's position on abortion?" My answer is "She or He is pro-choice. We believe in a woman's right to choose and have control over her own body".

or how our candidates should answer that question. Please send me a statement from any candidate for any office that describes themselves as pro-abortion instead of pro choice. Just one. And I don't mean abortion rights, because that's not how the OP is framed. Pro-Abortion is the link I want.

Perhaps I'll change that training and take your advice. At the door, maybe I'll have our people, when asked about that issue, tell the voter it's none of their business how our candidate feels. or better yet, explain why we're pro-abortion. "Oh, Mam, on that issue our Candidate Jane Smith is in favor of abortion."

That sounds like a winner.

[Mariana]

87. What you may say to potential voters in the interest of dipomacy

does not excuse your rude and condescending behavior toward people on this thread. When you're canvassing, you're speaking for your candidates, with their permission, and you should say what they want to you say. But you don't get to speak for the people here, so stop doing it.

[louis c]

94. Yes, teacher. Please don't lecture me

[MrsCoffee]

108. Why treat people here worse than you would a stranger whose door you knock on?

You are being incredibly rude and hostile to people after asking a very sensitive question that you really don’t seem to understand.

Did you want answers or did you just want to let us know that you are having a hard time with one of the issues on the Democratic platform?

I don’t know why you really started this thread, but your disdain and hostility toward those who tried to enlighten you is very disappointing to say the least.

[Mariana]

127. Let's be honest here, Mrs. Coffee.

He's being incredibly rude and hostile to women on this thread, who dare to talk back to him. I think just about all of us have seen this kind of thing before. It's long been a popular way for some men to try to intimidate or shame a woman into shutting up, if they don't like what she has to say.

[MrsCoffee]

132. So true.

[demmiblue]

74. +1

Incredible, isn't it?

[Justice]

14. Having gone to high school with numerous young women who became unexpectedly pregnant --

I am here to say none of the options for an unexpectedly pregnant woman are favored.

I've witnessed women making the range of options, marry and have the child, don't marry and have the child, have an abortion or give up the child for adoption and later marry the would-be father, or don't marry the father and give the child up for adoption or have an abortion. Over the years, I've come to see that no option is favored, there are consequences no matter the choice.

I've also seen on the TV show long lost family at least two couples who were young and not ready to marry - gave the child up for adoption and then went on to marry and have more children. The parents were gutted with worry and guilt and then found their first child.

When you are 15-16-17 years old, no option is favored - you live with the choices you make your whole life. That is why I've advocated birth control - as so much easier to never have to make the choice.

[louis c]

17. Of course, unwanted pregnency should be prevented through contrecption

I am just talking about choice here and how our Right Wing opponents frame it.

Choice is the key to our argument to keep abortion safe, affordable and legal.

[haele]

122. Here's the situation. From what I hear, most anti-choice proponents are also anti-birth control.

On the pulpit, right after Roe v.Wade, Griswold comes up as the next evil to be overthrown.
To expound upon what you indicated above - when I was growing up, all women (not just 15 to 17 year olds) are supposed to just live with the consequences of having sex.
If you were married, it was expected you'd have kids when Hubby wanted them. If you weren't married, you had to "take responsibility" for your decisions or behavior. It was very rarely the man's fault you got pregnant when you didn't want to have children.
I'd really like to see someone do a major survey of anti-choice proponents about sexual autonomy and/or birth control along with their opinions of choice, but I already suspect I know what the findings would be.
In the many years of experiencing the age of "sexual revolution", I've found that when you scratch the surface of "anti-choice", you realize that most proponents feel that the only reason a baby is born a girl is to be able to bear other babies once she becomes fertile. Whatever other desirable characteristics she may have been born with (intelligence, talents, abilities, strengths, humor, etc..) are ultimately secondary to her being a womb for the children of whatever guy she settles with. It's tradition, the way it's supposed to be.

A girl baby is supposed to be Daddy's little Girl to be given away to a deserving fellow and provide Daddy and Mommy with grandkids when it's appropriate. Because if she's "headstrong" or "made a mistake", then she's a disappointment; maybe she'll find someone who isn't so picky who will still take care of her so Daddy and Mommy don't have to worry about her in their old age.

Haele

[left-of-center2012]

19. I do not favor abortion

I am pro-choice

[Ken Burch]

23. And there is no such thing as "an abortionist".

There are simply physicians trained to perform a legal medical procedure.

[peggysue2]

24. It's always been Choice

The Republicans are fixated on abortion but always forget to mention the word 'choice.' Sarah Palin in an unguarded moment admitted to considering an abortion but chose to carry her last pregnancy to term.

Her Choice.

For the party that insists the Government stay out of their lives and private affairs, they have no trouble invading a woman's space and decision-making, even that involving her own body.

Choice. So easy to dismiss and/or turn it into something else.

[mopinko]

25. i favor abortion.

i have 5 kids. not all were planned. i did not make the choice to have an abortion. but it made a world of difference to know that i had the tools of independence. of freedom.
i was not a slave mother. i was a mother in control of her own body, and her own family.

i am eternally grateful to the women who went before me to make that option available to me. it should be available to all women.
a procedure that frees women from the slavery of forced incubation, with it's very real attendant risks to their very life, should be celebrated as science and medicine in the quest for real autonomy of women.

to me, choice is not the word. autonomy is the word.

[barbtries]

27. i'm pro abortion rights.

what i get keyed up over is their portrayal of themselves as "pro-life" - like hell they are. i've taken to commenting on it on twitter whenever a progressive tweets it. that to me is letting them control the nomenclature with all of its implications and i'm over it. same with "alt right" - no. White Supremacist, racist, Nazi - let's call it what it is.

they made liberal a dirty word. i am a patriotic (not nationalistic!) American liberal and that does not make me stupid, dangerous, or bad in any way shape or form.

[GeorgeGist]

28. Since you're a man ...

I suspect your opinion is irrelevant.

[louis c]

36. Only politically

since I get to vote and the people I vote for are pro-choice. I like the issue framed in a way that I can convince people to vote in a way that helps all of us.

Remember, about half the voters are men.

[Irish_Dem]

29. I think how I feel about abortion is between me and my physician.

And nobody else's business.

[louis c]

69. Until I have to confront the issue while I canvass voters

You see, this discussion is not about abortion, but about how we react when asked by a voter who's on the fence about our candidate. I didn't post this as some sort of philosophical discussion. I'm pro-choice, my candidates are pro-choice, but not every voter is, male or female.

Those voters have varying opinions. You tell a church goer that your pro-abortion or our candidate is pro-abortion, and we lose that vote. That's how our opponents want to frame the debate.

I see thread after thread here, during elections, about knocking on doors to reach voters. This is an issue with some voters. My candidate is pro-choice, not pro-abortion. that's how I convince voters.

When confronted at the door with a stranger in a discussion of my candidate's issues, when I am confronted on the subject, I'll try your suggestion and tell that voter it's none of his or her business, and see how that goes over.

I'll let you know.

[Irish_Dem]

70. I would not say it is none of their business, but a personal decision between

doctor and patient.

But that said, I would not want your job.

[DiverDave]

98. +1,000

My exact thoughts.
none of my business. Or anyone else's.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. I do. It's an excellent solution for not being pregnant anymore.

[Blue_true]

34. I don't favor abortion. But I do think every woman should be free to make her own decision.

And should minimally expect 100% physical and emotional safety once she makes her choice.

[louis c]

40. That's a false choice

Who would you rather send to college, your daughter or your son?

Safe, legal abortion has to be part of universal health.

[RandomAccess]

46. Please don't use the term "abortion on demand"

I've never seen it used by anyone on the Left -- just the anti-abortion right. Makes it sound like the choice to have an abortion is made frivolously.

[David__77]

89. A group supported abortion on demand and without apology.

It was a group called Refuse & Resist. I think it’s a good slogan - better than “safe, legal and rare” certainly.

[cynatnite]

49. What do you mean by "abortion on demand"?

Are you suggesting that women choose abortion as easily as tossing out an old pair of shoes?

You should know it's a RW term used to warp a woman's right to choose.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

51. I wouldn't.

[irisblue]

83. Seriously this is a false choice & as analogy, it doesn't work.

[cynatnite]

48. The problem is making abortion either for or against...

It's not and it shouldn't be allowed to be framed that way.

I know plenty of Dems who are very pro-life, but do not believe it's the government's place to be involved in it. I know some republicans, my mother for one, who are pro-life but comes from the days when women didn't have choices. She watched her mother struggle because she didn't have access to birth control and the right to choose, who always said that she wouldn't have had all five children had she the choice. My grandmother loved her children, but she struggled so much, too. My grandmother was a stalwart repub, too.

If you talk to a lot of folks, no matter their political party, you'll find the shades of grays because most everyone has them. Unfortunately, the anti-choice crowd screams vile obscenities at anyone who even wavers from being 100% pro-life.

[Eliot Rosewater]

52. As a man I dont know how I could have an opinion other than people have a right

to their own bodies.

Should I not be in favor of open heart surgery?

I could make many examples, abortion is a medical procedure that a woman may or may not have and it is entirely up to her, period.

[The_jackalope]

59. Bingo. Thank you. nt

[louis c]

67. that's the defination of choice

option is operate or die. not operate or give birth.

[BigDemVoter]

55. I sure do-- It's a REAL goddamned shame that Mary Anne MacLeod Trump,

Pussy Grabber's mother, didn't have an abortion when she was pregnant with Pussy Grabber.

[DFW]

61. By the same token, I never believe anyone who calls themself "pro-life."

I MIGHT make an exception if I met someone who was a strict vegan, and who was an active campaigner against the death penalty and an advocate of life in prison for parents who deny medical care to their children due to religious beliefs.

But I have never met such a person.

[Heddi]

62. I favor abortion

you don't speak for me

I'm fucking tired of men telling me, a woman, a nurse, a fucking feminist, what I really mean to say, what I really support, what I really think, etc etc.

"No one is PRO ABORTION."
"No one favors abortion"
oh?

I'm pro abortion
I favor abortion

Maybe you're the one who need's to "get something straight," and start listening to women instead of telling us what we really mean when we say what we feel.

[louis c]

66. Maybe you're right.

Maybe we should frame this debate, and believe me there is one, in a way that can lose us votes in the middle. Rather than choice, we'll just tell voters it's none of their business, when it's a an important issue to them. Why frame the issue in a convincing, pro-choice, nurturing, woman's right issue and try to confront the voter that we're the "pro-Abortion" party.

My problem isn't this issue. I personally couldn't give a good fuck, one way or another. But, I try to win elections and our candidates are pro-choice and I try to frame the argument as such.

But, perhaps you're right. Maybe we should do it your way. Maybe we should be the party of abortions instead of choice. Winning elections is secondary. Remember how good it felt on Nov. 8, 2016. Let's see if we can't keep duplicating that.

[dumbcat]

71. Whatever

Frame the debate to your heart's content.

You made a statement of fact. You were incorrect. Just admit it.

[louis c]

77. To be pro-abortion appears to mean that you believe everyone should have an abortion

to be pro-choice means everyone should have a choice.

I like being the party of choice, and winning elections.

Even though only half the population is confronted by this choice, everyone votes. We need a clear and concise message to voters framed in a way that increases our chances of winning and implementing our beliefs.

[GreenEyedLefty]

101. The best way to win elections, is to focus on issues that really matter to people.

Like jobs, health care, education, infrastructure, a tax code that is fair. You know, things that matter to sentient beings who are already here.

If I were running for office, those are the things I would make damn sure crowd out the non-issues. Because in the end, as long as abortion is safe and legal, I don't care if a woman has one or 100. I don't care if she is laughing and giddy while she is having an abortion or if she is sad... because it's none of my business, *except* for making sure they are safe, legal and available.

The so-called moral issues are red meat thrown out by assholes who are running for office for the wrong reasons, who care about winning at all costs at the expense of principle and decency - and as you can see in the GOP, that is exactly who is sitting in entirely too many seats on Congress.

[louis c]

116. I do that. But, occacionally, Choice or Aborrtion is the issue I am greeted with at a voter's door

I'm a union guy. I always talk jobs, wages, benefits, job security. I'm well versed on those subjects. But, occasionally the voter wants to know what my candidate's position on abortion is. I don't think that &quot S)he's all for it" is a good answer, or "none of your business" works at getting that voter to vote for the candidate I'm working for.

&quot Place name here) is for a woman's right to choose. (My candidate) believes that a woman is in control of her own body and should make those decisions and that the government has no place in telling her what to do."

That seems to work. Here are a few of the candidates I've knocked on doors for in Massachusetts. Elizabeth Warren, Martha Coakley and Katherine Clark. In New Hampshire, Hillary and Barack.

I think I'll stick to my way.

[Voltaire2]

107. I'm also very much in favor of kidney transplants.

But I don't think we should all go out get a new kidney.

[dumbcat]

109. You appear to take things wrongly

Let's cut to the chase. Your OP title was presented as a statement of fact. You were called on it and proven wrong. So you try to shift it to your desire to frame narratives and opinions. Deflection, in my opinion.

Just face it, your OP title is wrong. I support abortions. I don't believe everyone should have an abortion (which is a stupid premise in itself, men can't have abortions.) But the more abortions, the better. I believe there are way too many people on this planet, and the fewer that are added is better. Especially ones that aren't wanted or can't be supported.

Just give it up. If you want to frame a narrative more to your liking, have at it. But don't make stupid statements in OP titles and then get surprised when called on it. Try to get that straight.

[louis c]

117. It was really a reference to all candidates

It didn't mean every human being on the planet.

If you reread the first line of the body, it lists candidates names.

I'm sorry if you thought it meant 7.6 billion people. It only refers to every Democratic candidate I've ever known, and specifically references our most well known.

[dumbcat]

119. Words have meanings ....

Nobody.

Maybe you should chose your words more wisely?

And stop telling people what they think?

[louis c]

120. I don't care how you think

but I do care how you carry the message that could gain or lose us votes.

After all, whoever is elected gets to vote and implement every issue important to me, not just one.

So, I hope you would take your own advice and choose your words more carefully,

[dumbcat]

123. I am done

with your arrogance.

Bye.

[louis c]

124. Bye

[MrsCoffee]

131. Being pro-LGBT doesn't mean you believe everyone should be gay.

And being pro-abortion doesn't mean that you believe everyone should have an abortion.

Quit with the right wing framing already. Your posts in this thread are beyond the pale.

[Heddi]

112. I know I'm right. You clearly read nothing I wrote

See, I'm a woman. I know exactly what I think. I don't need you, a man, to mansplain what I'm thinking, or what I really mean to say, or what I really must be thinking.

Even when I go out of my way to say it nice and clear, using simple words and phrases, and say clearly "I am pro-abortion." you STILL don't fucking get it, and have to TELL ME WHAT I REALLY MEAN.

I mean, I guess I'm just too fucking dumb to think for myself, being a woman and all. Please, mister smart man, I need you to save me from myself :faints on couch from the mere idea of having an independent thought:

[dlk]

64. Why Can't Women Make Their Own Healthcare Decisions Without the Control of Men or Politicians?

Why do politicians and men need to control women's bodies? They need to move out of the Dark Ages. Is a woman's right to privacy and making her own decisions about her own body without male interference really so threatening?

[uponit7771]

65. *** AMERICA'S INFANT MORTALITY RATE !!! *** None of them REALLY care about the "unborn" seeing they

... don't even know what the hell America's infant mortality rate is !!

[mentalsolstice]

68. I know this has been an unpopular view here, I believe in safe, legal and rare.

Safe and legal applies to every woman who wants or needs one, no matter the reason, why or when. Or where, as it should be a standard procedure provided in Drs. offices and hospitals.

By rare, I want women and girls, men and boys to have safe and easily accessible means to birth control and education.

[hamsterjill]

72. I favor privacy.

Abortion is a private matter just as any other medical procedure is a private matter. It should never be a political point. It’s a woman’s body and she has every right to control her body.

[m-lekktor]

73. "liberals" who use right wing framing when discussing abortion are NOT helpful.

I know MANY people who have favored an abortion, you should probably speak for yourself. Not everybody accepts the premise that abortions are BAD. geesh

[Hekate]

75. I favor the complete continuum of women's medical health care, including abortion

After a lifetime of being pro-choice but hemming and hawing, I finally found the right phrase, and it is true. Abortion is part of the complete spectrum of women's health care, period.

[Xolodno]

76. I favor pregnancy prevention.

That is, early sex education. Easy and free access to contraception. No harassment, shaming, etc. of a victim of a sex crime...and if you do, held financially liable.

Abortion should be reserved when contraception fails, instances of rape, incest, life of the mother threatened, etc.

I'm also in favor of promotion and incentivizing adoption.

[elfin]

79. The opposite of choice is anti-choice or "forced birth"

Anti-choice means forced birth by any girl or woman no matter the age, physical or emotional health status, no matter the reason for insemination.

Even if said female is a 10 year old who is killed by the pregnancy or delivery. So is that "God's Will?'

[Jspur]

91. This issue has been pushed by

The republicans for what seems like the last 100 hundred year. I'm in my 30's and personally don't care about reaching these stupid people that believe the Dems are baby killers. I came to the conclusion in my 20s that these people are not worth wasting time with. They will continue to believing in the crap they believe in due to right wing media pushing it on them and also because they are straight up hateful people. I could bet that their is a 90 percent chance these people who are obsessed with abortion are also racist. From my personal experience that tends to be the case.

[Matt_R]

93. +1

I would like to add, I 100% support Abortion as a medical procedure and should be available to those that seek it. As well as affordable/low cost family planning. That includes but is not limited to, birth control, morning after pill, Plan B, Adoption, Counseling, and any other help that may be necessary.

[DiverDave]

96. Are you a guy?

Then you have NO SAY.
This is a woman's choice. PERIOD.
Yeah, you have your opinion, but it ain't up to you. Or me.

[pwb]

99. i accept other peoples will, but do not always approve.

Do your own thing.

[shanny]

102. I favor abortion

and I think it is a mistake to accept right wing framing on the subject. It's up to the woman, and what suits her needs, emotionally, financially, medically or whatever.

[LexVegas]

103. This OP is the definition of "mansplaining".

[J_William_Ryan]

104. It is perfectly

appropriate and consistent to oppose abortion while defending a woman's right to privacy.

[Voltaire2]

105. Oh bullshit. I favor abortion.

It is a simple and safe medical procedure.

[Act_of_Reparation]

110. Speak for yourself. I favor it.

[Qutzupalotl]

111. We can say most of them favor mass shootings

and therefore can’t be “pro-life.”

[eppur_se_muova]

113. Abortion should be a last resort. But there has to BE a last resort. nt

[lapislzi]

114. I favor abortion.

Sometimes it is the best outcome of a pregnancy. Why are we afraid to say that? There are many bad outcomes that can result from pregnancy. Too many to list here.

I don't favor judging people for their choices, or for their decisions in consultation with family, clergy, and medical professionals. People's health decisions are none of my business.

[Orsino]

115. Oh, yeah? Then why is our newest senator named Abortion Jones?

I favor best options for women, and sometimes that means abortion.

[Vinca]

118. I think every woman should be competent to decide what is best for herself.

The GOP makes it sound as if "the girls" like to get together on a Saturday afternoon for a little shopping and abortions. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's a serious, often painful decision. Another thing the GOP never mentions is the number of abortions their wives and daughters have. No one will convince me if a Republican woman carrying a deformed child that can't exist outside the womb is confronted with a life or death issue for herself she won't abort the fetus.

[kcr]

121. I'm in favor of abortion the same way I'm in favor of appendectomies.

The right wing is going to spin and spinning is what they do best.

[louis c]

125. So don't play into it

I'm sure you are only for appendectomies when they are necessary to the health of the patient.

I hope you don't favor the operation when it's not needed.

[kcr]

136. What the hell?

I don't think your response was called for.

[louis c]

139. Don't blame me

you used the analogy.

[kcr]

140. You're the one playing into their game.

By agreeing with them that I and others who think like me are "pro abortion" because we defend that right. I don't care even one little bit what they think of my opinion. If anyone needs to stop playing their game, it's you. I think the only reason you care is because you agree with them and just don't want to admit it because it's DU. You're the only one playing games, here.

[louis c]

141. Ya, sure. Whatever

Moderate Republicans in swing states WILL vote for a Pro-Choice Democrat.

They will not vote for a Pro-Abortion candidate.

In politics, it's all about framing the debate on an issue.

That's the point. I get it, our candidates get it, and some here at DU don't.

That's OK. It's just that I'm from Massachusetts and I work in the Democratic party here, and we're a little spoiled. I have this very funny habit of enjoying winning elections that I work on.

[Lordquinton]

128. Why do we always have to meet them on their terms?

That's the losing strategy. Make them defend themselves instead of ceding ground every time it comes up.

Not that it matters, but I am pro-abortion.

[kcr]

137. I would rec this if I could

Worrying so much about what the other side thinks causes so many problems. Among other reasons, I believe it leads us to frame things badly.

Personally, I think framing abortion solely as a choice is fraught with issues. Not every choice is right or correct. Framing it in the context of rights is far more direct and effective. It's how other rights like free speech are discussed. You never hear anyone framing them that way because the choice is implied.

[Texasgal]

129. I'm absolutely FAVOR abortion!

Just like most people FAVOR Heart surgeries! I FAVOR a safe medical procedure that is between me and my doctor. I should not have to phrase MY medical procedures in any specific way.

[louis c]

135. Do you favor heart surgery if a person doesn't need one or want one?

Some people who are diagnosed with a terminal disease choose not to have radical surgery or treatment. They'd rather live out their last 6 or 12 months without that added discomfort. But the surgery or treatment is offered them.

That's a better analogy. That's choice.

[tammywammy]

138. I'm pro-abortion

I want every woman that wants one to be able to get one.