Democratic lawmaker: Women's clothing an 'invitation to harassment'

[octoberlib]

A female Democratic House member shocked fellow lawmakers Wednesday when she said that the revealing clothing that some members and staffers wear is an “invitation” to sexual harassment.

Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) made the comments during a private Democratic Caucus meeting Wednesday to discuss sexual harassment issues, according to two Democratic sources in the room.

“I saw a member yesterday with her cleavage so deep it was down to the floor,” Kaptur said, according to the sources present. “And what I’ve seen … it's really an invitation.” The comments left many others in the room stunned, the sources said.

Kaptur said women on Capitol Hill should have to abide by a stricter dress code, like those adopted by the military or corporations.“Maybe I’ll get booed for saying this, but many companies and the military [have] a dress code,” she said. “I have been appalled at some of the dress of ... members and staff. Men have to wear ties and suits.”


https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/13/marcy-kaptur-womens-clothing-sexual-harassment-294974

[gratuitous]

1. Imma sit back and see what happens

Rep. Kaptur has been in office since 1983 and is a reliable member of the House Democratic Caucus. This extraordinarily stupid statement attributed to her calls out for some sort of approbation, methinks. Will the drumhead ceremony continue or will it stop short here? I'm on tenterhooks.

[octoberlib]

4. She must be in her 60's or 70's then? Somebody needs to sit her down

and have the " how a woman dresses has nothing to do with sexual assault" talk. Yes, let's all walk around in military uniforms, Problem solved.

[Irish_Dem]

7. Tell her that women in uniform are raped. Clothing is no protection

from predators.

[octoberlib]

15. THIS.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

54. It's unbelievable this has to be said... but, glad you did.

[bdamomma]

90. nt

exactly

[NewJeffCT]

19. she's 71

I'm sure it's generational

[delisen]

39. At 71 she lived through the 60s--which saw the

arrival of the topless bartenders and lots of skin showing. Heck even the NY philharmonic had a topless musician for awhile.

I think Kaptur is looking for more decorum in the halls of power.

[Irish_Dem]

59. I think people should be professional at work, but clothing is not an excuse

for sexual assault.

And yes she should remember what girls wore in the 60's and 70's.
Our short skirts showed our butts when we moved.
And undergarments were optional.

[brush]

32. Right. As if the military has no sexual assault/harassment problems (not).

[Voltaire2]

2. oh for fucks sake. Can somebody send her a clue stick?

[shenmue]

6. Yes

[bullwinkle428]

3. NOT helping, Rep. Kaptur.

[Demit]

5. I'm glad she said it. When the dress code was relaxed so women who wanted to wear sleeveless

dresses could was one thing, but dressing to show cleavage at the office is another. What's the point of showing your cleavage during the day anyway?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. What's the point of showing your neck at the office?

Your hair?

[Demit]

18. Don't be disingenuous. You know that breasts are a sexual feature that hair or necks aren't.

Whenever you wear a plunging neckline, it's a statement. It's saying "Look here."

In the evening that's fine. During the day, at a non-work event, fine. But cocktail dresses are not daytime professional work attire.

[LanternWaste]

21. No. It's an inference you make rather than an statement someone else makes.

"it's a statement."

No. It's an inference you make rather than an statement someone else makes. You're enabling (if not a part of) the same, tired narrative males have been shrilly rationalizing for 10,000 years.

[Demit]

25. Deep cut necklines are meant to be sexy. That's the point of them.

There's sexy clothing & there's clothing that's not sexy. If you are a woman shopping for a sexy party dress you don't ask the saleswoman to show you business suits. C'mon, you know the difference.

[ismnotwasm]

30. That doesnt make it an invitation for harassment

[get the red out]

58. THIS!

This is the whole point. The person doing the harassment is not controlled by what someone wears. They are a rotten person who wants to take advantage of others, they don't suddenly turn into that because someone's neckline was low.

[Tarc]

22. I have a feeling that a 71yr-old's definition of a "plunging neckline"

isn't quite the same as most sane people's. She's acting like Congressional staffers dress like a 2005-era J-Lo;

[Demit]

27. Why don't you show me a sane person's idea of a plunging neckline suitable for the office.

No, really, I would like to know what you mean. Do you have a photo of one you could show?

[octoberlib]

38. actually googled "plunging neckline suitable for office" and got this

Hard to know what Kaptur's referring to, though and it doesn't matter because it doesn't have anything to do with causing men to sexually assault you. If they're sexual predators , they will assault you if you're wearing a nun's habit.

[Demit]

64. She said "harassment," not assault. Harassment in the workplace encompasses

a range of behavior, some of it relatively mild but still considered harassment., such as making women feel uncomfortable.

I just did what you did, and googled the phrase. Of 9 articles on just the first google page, 9 of them cautioned about wearing plunging necklines at the office.

The dress you pictured may or may not be considered an office dress by whoever is advertising it for sale (I couldn't access it b/c it's on pinterest) but I would guess that any one of those 9 articles would warn against it as not projecting a professional image. Btw, the model's cleavage is pretty obviously airbrush out to make it look less, well, revealing.

[bettyellen]

76. The model doesn't have a lot of cleavage, neither do I so I guess we can wear that but..

More well endowed women can't? I recall that's how it tends to work.

[Demit]

78. I imagine she's pretty small breasted, she's a model after all.

But the photo is def. airbrushed anyway. I'm also betting the dress is pinned in back to make it so form-fitting, or it might be airbrushed as well. You know the tricks they do to make clothes look better.

That dress would be a disaster for any woman to wear in an office setting, as you move about doing things during the day. If you're flat-chested it would gape, if you're full-figured you'd be falling out of it. About all you can do is stand ramrod straight in it and not budge for eight hours, lol.

[bettyellen]

81. Actually wrap dresses can be very flattering and appropriate for work.

Sorry, but I do that for a living! wrap dresses? People mostly wear them to work. Nothing wrong with it either.

[treestar]

96. Wardrobe malfunction asking to happen

unless there is some kind of glue on the inside of the dress?

[Polly Hennessey]

55. I agree with you Demit.

How we look or dress does have something to do with how we are perceived. Breasts are sexual. Cleavage looks great at night but not in the workplace.

[JimBeard]

82. Thank you Dimit and Polly for your common sense post. I would jump in but I have had too many alerts

Yall have good post. I will ad that no matter what any one thinks, its up to the boss what he thinks is distracting.

[zipplewrath]

10. She's mixing up two different things

Inappropriate clothing isn't an "invitation to harassment. Doesn't mean it can't be inappropriate, but those are two different things.

[Demit]

20. You don't consider a man staring at your chest sexual harassment?

It doesn't make you uncomfortable? I mean, there's a well known joke about it. Women have to constantly say "Hey, I'm up here."

That was even one of the accusations made about Al Franken. He supposedly "looked at a woman's boobs too long."

[mythology]

28. A woman could put a flashing neon sign on her breasts

And it still wouldn't make me incapable of looking away and nor harassing her. That whole personal responsibility thing and individual agency means I can't blame another person for my actions.

Granted I care less about breasts than pretty much every other straight guy, but it's really not that hard to not stare no matter what a woman is wearing.

[Demit]

44. Lol, you're acknowledging that most straight guys are infatuated with breasts.

Which isn't exactly news. That's why women wear clothing that shows them off. Showing your cleavage is not a neutral action. It's not accidental.

[Madam Mossfern]

29. Demit, I agree with you

Not that a plunging neckline is an invitation, but that it's inappropriate. If anyone, male or female wants to be taken seriously then they should dress in a non sexualized manner. I just don't know what the standard is for the appropriate depth of a neckline is.

I also wish there were dress codes in high schools - especially during the warm months.

[OregonBlue]

49. As do I. It's not that I think it's an invitation. I believe if a woman dresses in a very sexualized

manner she is opening herself up to not being taken seriously. It's like the difference between a young guy always in jeans and a tshirt and a guy in a wool suit and tie. We all make snap judgements and it doesn't help her image. I realize things are changing and that's for the good but for young women who want to be taken seriously, look like you take yourself seriously. Not as a sexual object.

[crazycatlady]

85. There are dress codes in high schools now

And they disporportionaly penalize the girls. Because it is a girl's responsibility to dress so she doesn't distract the boys (because boys will be boys).

It's high time to teach boys to respect girls so they don't grow up to be sexual predators.

[Madam Mossfern]

86. Honestly

What I saw when I drove by the high school in our town was shameful. I think they've instituted dress codes now here, but I do remember girls in very short shorts and halter tops. Yes, shameful. That is no way to dress for school. The boys were slovenly dressed.

I believe that when you dress a certain way, you act a certain way, especially in the workplace and school. I'm not talking about overt sexual behavior, but the subtle messages it puts out. Let's put it this way - would you put a bottle of bourbon and a glass in front of a recovering alcoholic? Yes, I know the analogy is a bit extreme.

No I'm not a miss prissy goody two shoes - I was a figure painter and taught life drawing. I have no issue with women dressing seductively, but certainly not in the office or classroom.

[crazycatlady]

94. Is this seductive?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/a-high-school-student-is-fighting-back-after-she-was?utm_term=.xvb4p25gR#.pl7K79LrR

https://www.buzzfeed.com/stephaniemcneal/a-17-year-old-was-forced-to-get-on-her-knees-in-school-over?utm_term=.dmOMx6O0r#.qxWDykGjZ

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kristinchirico/i-tried-to-follow-8-different-high-school-dress-codes-and-itutm_term=.goJ1Q953v#.stdp3noXr

https://www.buzzfeed.com/norawhelan/times-dress-codes-were-absurd-in-2016?utm_term=.xq0ed1Glb#.bjE6Y8ZXx

[Ken Burch]

45. OK...but that's on the man for being a creep, not on the woman for how she's dressed.

That happens to women in heavy wool sweaters. Probably happens with burkas.

[zipplewrath]

56. That doesn't make it an invitation

That is the point. It's not an "invitation to harassment" just because it is inappropriate.

We can discuss the finer points of "too long" and whether the clothes being worn allows (or not) a variation in such discussions. But either way, it is not an invitation.

[Iggo]

13. Seeing women's cleavage does not make me want to treat women poorly. (n/t)

[leftstreet]

23. +1

I can't believe the assumptions made on these threads

[ismnotwasm]

34. Thank you

On the reverse side, I knew a young professional male (a doctor in his residency) who was so shy he seemed like he was ALWAYS staring at your boobs. I never thought he was doing it on purpose. As he gained confidence he was able to raise his eyes.

[Ken Burch]

47. Same.

n/t.

[LexVegas]

24. What was F. Scott Fitzgerald like?

[Ken Burch]

43. You actually posted that?

I'd self-delete right now if I was you...keep this going, you'll just make this worse for yourself.

[Demit]

50. Yes, I actually did.

I have no intention of deleting it. It's a good point to make. In fact, I'm enjoying the responses that seem to claim there's no such thing as deliberately wearing clothes to be sexy.

[Ken Burch]

52. There's a difference between "being sexy", and "agreeing to be creeped on".

A HUGE difference.

[Madam Mossfern]

66. Why would one want to

"be sexy" in the workplace then?

[Ken Burch]

75. It may be a subjective thing

In some cases, it may simply be that a woman looks "sexy" without consciously meaning to.

It could also be something as simple as having a date right after work and not having time to change.

In whatever case, nothing a woman could possibly wear excuses sexual harassment.

[Madam Mossfern]

84. There's a thing called

a cardigan.

[Ken Burch]

95. And there's a thing called "Men NOT being creeps".

I'm a guy. SOME of us get it. Not enough at the moment, but some.

[procon]

57. Women come pre-assembled with breasts, so cleavage is pretty much a built in feature. nt

[lunatica]

67. You have the right not to show bare arms or cleavage or knees or anything

Many men have the manners not to grope, ogle, or make crude comments. Maybe the ones who do should be taught not to no matter what a woman wears.

Why act as if women are the ones who get the lectures and have to change while men are just expected to be men?

[Voltaire2]

80. Burka.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. So who called her out?

[octoberlib]

11. "two Democratic sources in the room"

That's all I got.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

16. All they did was tattle. I'm curious if anyone talked to her at the time.

[Solly Mack]

12. Uh

Damn

[NastyRiffraff]

14. "Maybe I'll get booed"

I HOPE she got booed. Deep cleavage in the office may be inappropriate, but it is NOT an excuse or invitation for sexual harrassment. It's horrible that a Democratic representative who is a woman to boot even thinks that, let alone says it.

I hope her constituents let her have it.

[Orrex]

17. For the record, I have never shown my cleavage at the office.

[Bettie]

26. Bullshit

So, what, Ms. Kaptur, do we now need to wear burkas in order to keep the menfolk from feeling "invited"?

[Madam Mossfern]

31. Do you want men to be distracted?

I think she misspoke and could have chosen her words better.

[Orrex]

36. If the men are distracted, then that's the men's problem

[Madam Mossfern]

37. It's biology.

Sorry.

[Orrex]

42. It's also professionalism

It is absurd to require woman to act professionally solely to prevent men from acting unprofessionally.

If the men can't control themselves (i.e., can't act professionally despite the nebulous disclaimer "biology" ), then perhaps those unhinged men don't belong in a professional environment.

[Madam Mossfern]

48. Women who want to be respected as professional

should act and dress professionally, just as men are expected. In my 'old fashioned' opinion, plunging necklines are not
professional attire for women.

I ask you, what is the purpose for a woman to wear very low necklines, tight clothes etc. in the workplace?

[northoftheborder]

51. Agree

[Orrex]

62. Generally speaking, I don't make it my business to tell women how to dress.

That's not to say that all attire is equally professional, but garments are acceptable in a wide range of styles, and it is difficult to set one catch-all standard.

How much of a woman's unprofessional neck would you allow to be exposed? If men see the notch of her collarbone, will they lose all sense of decorum?

[Madam Mossfern]

65. I think we're talking about cleavage here -

so depending on the "lift" of her bra? Just like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

Do you approve of a woman using her sexuality to advance her career?

[Orrex]

74. Clarification, please

Do you approve of a woman using her sexuality to advance her career?

How, exactly? It is a more or less certain fact that charismatic, attractive individuals who are good with people have an advantage in the climb to success. This is unfortunate for mere normals like me, but it is nevertheless a fact.

Charisma, attractiveness and people skills are elements of sexuality male and female. Should these be barred from professional interaction?

[Madam Mossfern]

87. I don't think that one can compare

charisma with a plunging neckline.

[Orrex]

91. Both are elements of sexuality, one of which you reject

I have a coworker who has an incredibly well-developed upper body. Sometimes he wears shirts that allow us to see his forearms, and most of his shirts let us see his shape. Sometimes--gasp!--he even fails to button all the way to his collar, and we can glimpse his Olympian pecs! He is also quite well-regarded in the office. How much of that, I wonder, is due to his visible and attention-grabbing physique? How can we know?

You and I are quibbling about where to draw the lines, of course. I maintain that I have no business telling a woman how to dress, however.

I further maintain that if I, as a man, fail to conduct myself professionally because of a coworker's attire, then that is my failure, not my coworker's.

[bdamomma]

92. I agree too

I am from the old school too. Tasteful and professional clothing should be worn esp. in the workplace.

[crazycatlady]

73. Boys will be boys?

Schools have the same problem. They spend too much time telling girls that their fashion is distracting the boys instead of teaching the boys not to looks.

[Madam Mossfern]

88. That's a bit unfair

It's like saying to someone "Don't think of an elephant."

Also, if a woman/girl is dressing in a seductive way, I would assume she's doing it in order to get those looks.
Otherwise and comfortable sweatshirt and jeans would be more appropriate - no?

[crazycatlady]

93. Define seductive

I've been catcalled in the streets when wearing a shirt 3 sizes too big and baggy sweatpants. Hardly seductive.

How about teach boys to respect girls and women?

[delisen]

33. Should the male dress code be relaxed?

The suit and tie is the power dress for men. Maybe congress should relax it.

Of course, relaxed dress code for men in Silicon Valley has not changed behavior much, has it?

[Ken Burch]

35. Still think we were better off with her than with Dennis?

[Snotcicles]

63. She is one of the best we have. IMO nt

[TexasBushwhacker]

40. I don't understand why women expose a lot of cleavage during the day

but I don't consider it an "invitation" either. I'm just not into showing a lot of flesh to the general public. I never have been.

[ProudLib72]

41. Wider variance of "professional" women's clothing

equals a wider variance of opinion on what is "professional" in women's clothing. Do the men get to wear what they think is "professional"? Maybe we should go back to t-shirts under sports jackets with rolled up sleeves a la 80s Don Johnson.

I don't agree with the sexual harassment thing. That's not right.

I do agree with standardizing "professional" women's attire based on there being a wide range of opinion on exactly what constitutes "professional".

[NewJeffCT]

53. I've worked in several large corporations

there are generally rules for attire for both men and women: no shorts, t-shirts, sneakers, jeans, etc are pretty common for both sexes, and no ripped jeans if you have casual Fridays or similar. Tank tops are usually not allowed, either. And, not sure about strapless tops. I'm also not sure if there have been directions about the amount of cleavage a woman can show or not, but I would think that might fall under a more general "and other" attire that might not be considered professional. To be honest, I worked for a very large corporation throughout the 90s that had significantly more female than male employees and I don't remember much cleavage at all - maybe peer pressure among the women? And, I'm sure back when I was in the 20s to early 30s, I likely would have noticed.

Of course, when I first started in the workplace circa 1990, it was suits and ties for men, and either dresses or women's suits (pantsuits or blazer/blouse/skirt) for women. That eventually became more relaxed over time - contribute $10 to the United Way and you can wear jeans the next 10 Fridays - first to casual Fridays and then business casual.

[zipplewrath]

61. We have a wide variation

New hires straight out of college often have more limited closets and we get strange outfits for a few months. The younger set still tends to push limits a tad, often because of significantly different attitudes about what is appropriate for work. Strangely, shoes are an issue because of a move towards flip flops and open toed shoes. Unfortunately, not appropriate for shop areas.

[Drahthaardogs]

70. We had a young new hire walking around barefoot

Safety put an end to that, but not without her little millennial brain thinking she should go to EEO for a discrimination complaint.

She was almost fired before she backed down. Just insanity.

[ProudLib72]

79. Can you imagine if men showed "cleavage"?

Picture a man showing up to work looking like Fabio on the cover of a romance novel. He wouldn't last long at the company.

That we are discussing this makes me think it's a bad idea to show any cleavage. If you have to question whether or not it's appropriate, it probably isn't.

[zipplewrath]

83. It isn't clear

I tend to fall into that category, but apparently many women do not agree. At least by what I "see" at work.

[AJT]

46. It's a work place and everyone should dress appropriately.

Please be honest, if a woman shows a lot of cleavage even other women end up looking.....it is made to be the focal point and a woman shouldn't be suprised when other people look. If a man wears skin tight pants, people are going to look at his crotch area. Cleavage and skin tight pants are for your own time, not work. No one should be harassed, no one should make comments or propositions, but there will be glances and looks. Dress for work!

I worked for corporate America for 40 years....and I have been harassed and propositioned, but I always dressed professionally.

[MontanaMama]

60. On a lighter note,

your signature line made me snort the soup I am eating for lunch!

[MichMan]

68. Kaptur has a credibility issue with me already

I already have issues with Marcy Kaptur. She voted in favor of the Multi Employer Pension Reform Act passed in December of 2016 that allowed troubled pension plans to cut benefits to retirees.

When this affected her constituents in the Teamster Central States Pension plan, she acted outraged that such a thing could be allowed. She developed amnesia about ever supporting it and is trying to overturn the very law she voted for in the first place.

[gibraltar72]

69. Could be wrong

but in the deep recesses of what I use for a mind lurks the information she was once a nun.

[crazycatlady]

71. I suggest she looks up the Duggar family

Their oldest son (former conservative lobbyist) molested his VERY modestly dressed sisters (ie Little House on the Prairie fashion).

[cynatnite]

72. As a woman vet, I can tell you without a doubt...BDU's never stopped sexual harassment! n/t

[erinlough]

77. This discussion is the crux of the problem.

I will preface by saying I’m 65, almost Kaptur’s age. It is silly to me that however someone looks should make them responsible for sexual assault. I see many handsome well dressed men, with great teeth and hair and although all of those things are appealing to me I don’t ever think about approaching them and grabbing their Dick or harassing them by whistling or making inappropriate comments. I reason that because I am able to control my impulses, men should likewise be able to control theirs.

[bdamomma]

89. Even if women worn

something else they still would be harassed.

unless you want women to wear burqas

[struggle4progress]

97. Perhaps the solution to this clothing problem is for more women to go naked