Would everyone take a deep breather and Chill the F**K OUT!

[sheshe2]

You wish to primary every sitting Democratic Senator and Two Independents, which includes Sanders because they called for Franken to stand down? Are you nuts? I do not want my Senators Warren and Markey primaried.

I do not like that he was ousted...yet at this time he is still there and things can change. Calling to primary them all is creating division and playing into the Putin/GOP handbook.

Please. Would you all give this a rest? Way to much hair on fire at a time when our lives and livelihood is a stake. Also, if I might add women's lives are at stake here, our safety and well being both in the workplace and at home as well, you are taking that issue away from us and that is not helping. Please do not do this. We are not a piece of meat to be thrown to the wolves, nor are we a herd as someone said here that is led. WE are strong.

Vote Democratic and hell ya, vote for women.

[Mme. Defarge]

1. Non,

I will not. This s CANNOT stand. But that’s just moi.

[rock]

178. My reaction as well

You can make suggestions to me about how to vote, but you can't tell me how to vote!

[disndat]

188. Franken Must Stay;Gillibrand Must Go

Gillibrand clearly violated the due process law or rule in her eagerness to oust Franken. She led the 33 others in her haste to grab
leader of the pack position from the crowd of women looking at POTUS 2020.

[DownriverDem]

226. Please Correct Your Focus

Otherwise you must be a repub.

[onit2day]

219. First I heard of this.Explanations would be enough

Where are you getting this stuff about wanting to primary senators? I have not seen it anywhere but here.

[McCamy Taylor]

10. Gillibrand did not do it by herself. Why is she now a target for all the rage?

I am getting very tired of being told that this or that Democrat is the problem. Trump is the problem.

[JimBeard]

76. Well, if Trump is the problem, get rid of him. There is very little logic in the other point of view

[LBM20]

167. She led the lynchmob. But yes, they are all to blame. This was a SHITTY decision. SHAME ON THEM!

[kstewart33]

221. What lynch mob?

There was a pattern of behavior by Franken. It certainly did not even begin to compare with Weinstein, Trump, and other major predators but there was a pattern. Did the pattern mean it was habitual? We'll likely never know.

Gillibrand had done a great deal of good for women since her time in the Senate. She has led the charge to reduce the terrible anti-woman prejudice in the military concerning cases of sexual assault and harassment.

No way would I support primarying her or any other effective Democrat.

[BlueWI]

243. So you were there and observed the behavior?

At dead center of this fiasco is acting on allegations as if they are fact. Are you going to continue doing this?

[kstewart33]

247. Roy Moore's accusers made allegations and they have been treated as if they are fact.

We're all treating those allegations as if they are fact.

By calling Franken's situation a fiasco, you are condemning his accusers while believing Moore's accusers.

What's the difference?

[BlueWI]

250. There are many differences - some are obvious, others less so, I suppose.

Al Franken is a sitting senator, and there is a process for investigating ethics violations in that institution, and there are punishments, including censure, and probably even a process of removal from office.

That investigative process had begun. I am of a similar mind to, most likely, around 100% of the people supporting Franken on DU who would be in agreement with investigating the claims. Even Al Franken originally welcomed this in a statement of contrition that, to my knowledge, Moore has not done. Would you agree?

The fiasco comes when a group of 38 Democratic senators decides to invent their own process and pressure Franken to resign, with little public deliberation, despite the fact that he is duly and legally elected from another state - a blue state, in fact, that is trending purple in part because of the general inability of the national Democratic party to extend its base beyond its traditional strongholds. This comes in just over a year when the party got its clocks cleaned by one Donald Trump, with the help of Russian hackers, but also with a failure to run a competitive race in about 2/3 of the land mass of this country.

I really couldn't care less about how fair the media is to Roy Moore, because I'm partisan, because character matters (and I don't see that Roy Moore has the support of women that he actually worked with, quite the opposite for Al Franken), because I'm a black man and I despise the persistence of segregationist mindsets, and because I think the false equivalencies between Moore (a reactionary Republican candidate) and Franken (a liberal Democratic senator) are rife in the way these issues are discussed, even on DU. If Moore were a senator, faced these accusations, and advocated in public for an investigation, as Franken has done, that would seem reasonable to me, at least if I were in favor of Roy Moore. I am absolutely not in favor of Roy Moore, and he has his own core of people to defend him or support him.

I'm sure you're aware of the news accounts of each accuser and possible points about their credibility or the severity of what is claimed. Personally, I do not write (even on the internet) or speak with certainty about accusations against public figures - I actually do try to avoid this, since I do know a number of legislators in my area from both sides of the aisle. I think everyone should try to avoid this.

[Irish_Dem]

3. Spot on SheShe, thank you for posting!

Totally agree on the too much hair on fire....
And everything else you said....

[rzemanfl]

4. Franken was not "asked to stand down" he was told to resign.

I will not continue because my blood pressure is rising.

[sheshe2]

9. Same thing really.

Yet do what you have to do. My vote is for women and it always will be. Frankly. I do not believe that Franken would approve of the hair on fire or the dismissive comments about women...I believe he has and has always stand with women.

I am sure he would never approve of those that say they will leave the party and become Indies...nor do I think he would support primaries on sitting Dems.

[rzemanfl]

11. Well, that certainly isn't divisive. n/t

[sheshe2]

13. How so? nt

[rzemanfl]

14. Never mind. n/t

[sheshe2]

17. hmmm. nt

[mcar]

91. What sheshe2 just said certainly isn't divisive

Glad you agree.

[sheshe2]

106. You...

[mcar]

111. ...

[PatrickforO]

101. No one I've seen is making dismissive comments about women.

I just don't think Franken got due process. In addition, I counsel against imposing a 'zero tolerance' stance on this because if you do, you'll end up getting rid of pretty much every man over age 55, because anyone working during the Mad Men culture of the 70s and 80s was part of that culture.

Remember that 'zero tolerance' policies throw out all discretion and all common sense. Think first grade girl being permanently expelled from school because she inadvertently brought her mom's lunch bag instead of her own and mom's had a plastic knife in it. Dozens of stories like this.

The mob mentality is really bad. It caused the deaths of dozens of people back in Salem in the 1600s and the blacklisting of hundreds of people during the McCarthyism red scare era.

I sincerely feel the mob action against Franken on the part of these Senators was despicable.

Not to step on any toes, but I stand for common decency, basic morality and due process.

You know the Dems I most respect now? I most respect the 58 House members who voted FOR debate on articles of impeachment. You know why? They stand for something. Trump's treasonous, illegal and unbalanced behavior cannot seriously be equated with a couple of quasi-creepy things Franken did way back when.

Half the base is male. It ain't me splitting the party.

[mcar]

107. There are, roughly, 99* OPs here just today denigrating one female

D senator for her call for Franken to resign. Not one word about the many male senators who made similar calls. When that is pointed out, we were told that "she started it."

I've read here today that said senator is very conservative, a "corporatist," and a fan of big tobacco. All her hard work on behalf of women in the military is ignored and discounted.

And yes, that would be dismissive.

*hyperbolic #.

[PatrickforO]

118. Oh. Well, I have not said those things, though I have been critical of

both Gillibrand and Harris. But I also made a post criticizing Bernie. I've contacted the offices of most of these Senators, both male and female. I suppose in my mind, the need for due process is most critical.

That said, I am a student of politics, and it looks to me like Gillibrand, who wants to run for president in 2020, thought she could deftly take out a Senator she perceived as a possible competitor.

As I say, I feel the railroading of Franken is despicable, and ALL these senators can make it all better, for me at least, by withdrawing their demands that Franken resign, inviting him back into the senate in good standing, pending the results of the investigation.

Because he, like you or me, deserves due process, not some bullshit 'zero tolerance' toss-out-all-discretion-and-common-sense railroading. That's all.

If the due process shows that Franken is guilty of harassment beyond a 'perception' because his hand inadvertently touched the flesh of a woman's hip after her shirt crept up during a photo op. That doesn't hold water. At all. But if Franken is guilty of egregious harassment, then yes, he should resign. I merely take offense that he was railroaded out before he received due process.

And, yes, I will be supporting people in upcoming primaries who were not party to this despicable act that to me is odious and flies in the face of common decency. Now, if they do back off and allow due process to take place, then I'm cool.

[mcar]

171. When did she say she wanted to run for president?

I haven't seen that.

[Cheviteau]

222. That's Funny

There has never been a senator in any decade or any century who hasn't thought of himself/herself as better material for the office of President than the one who happens to be sitting. Also...there's never been one who hasn't thought about seeking the office.

[NastyRiffraff]

177. She wants to run for president?

I haven't seen or heard her say so, but finally I see what all this rage about Gillibrand is about. Her call for Franken to resign is a convenient excuse. The gods forbid that a women run for president...again!!!!! The horror!!

Of course none of the so-called progressives (SCPs) will say that out loud. Thankfully, Gillibrand provided them with a good excuse.

(For the record, I think she was wrong to call for Al's resignation, but so have plenty of others, including the demigod Sanders.)

Yes, it's about sexism. Maybe in some cases it's unconscious sexism, but that's still what it is.

[PatrickforO]

182. here's a nice link for both of you.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politics/kirsten-gillibrand-2020-sexual-assault/index.html

Sorry you think it's about sexism.

To my dying day, I will maintain that it is about someone getting railroaded without due process. Anyway, all I was doing was making an observation. Kamala Harris is also seen as a prospect. I have no objection to a woman president and in fact voted for Clinton in 2016. She'd have made a fine president.

But, I'm a man, so...

[NastyRiffraff]

194. Yes, you're a man, so...

you don't get it. This happens again and again and again, and you guys don't ever get it. You think you do; you think because you voted for a woman once when the alternative was unthinkable you're a feminist. You're clearly, very clearly, not.

BTW, regarding that link of yours: I looked in vain to see where she said she was running for president. I saw a lot of speculation that she would, but nothing from her. So, I don't see the point.

[mcar]

199. This is a CNN analysis

Not a statement by the senator.

[sheshe2]

129. Yes there are.

When one

is denigrated the rest become questionable. Women are always questioned. Men, not so much. Many men signed on as well. Sanders is one. Where is the outrage? Where?

The blowback about Franken is no worse and very sad than the Blowback on Gillibrand. Both are being hung out to dry.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

130. I've been critical of Bernie, even though he didn't "lead the charge"...

but, of course, for the one demanding the Pussy-Grabber-in-Chief reassign also. Still would of liked to have seen Bernie grant Franken the due process he deserved... very disappointed in him for that.

[lark]

198. One by her own actions and one through lies.

That is the difference. The total disrespect for truth that was shown by the Dems, lead by Senator Gillibrand. Sen. Franken has been totally honorable, the others despicable in the lack of caring for facts nd truth.

[sheshe2]

260. Why does everyone ONLY blame Democrats?

Sanders and King , both Independents and according to you...are guilty as charged by your standards. Yet no word about them and lynch mobs. Not the Independents, not the men...one woman is held accountable above the rest.

One by her own actions and one through lies.

That is the difference. The total disrespect for truth that was shown by the Dems, lead by Senator Gillibrand. Sen. Franken has been totally honorable, the others despicable in the lack of caring for facts nd truth.

and one that I know of....Sanders is a possible 2020 contender. Why is it that he is held to a different standard? By your own words I highlighted above..."Democrats" show "disrespect for the truth" and "despicable in the lack of caring for facts nd truth." Yet where is your mention of the Independents?

[lark]

261. No, I didn't list everyone and Sanders is part of this awful action.

I will not vote for him again if he runs. All of the Democrats who called for Franken to resign showed nothing but disrespect for truth and have lost a lot of respect from me. I didn't mention Independents because the democrats took the lead, but yes King and Sanders were very much part of this railroading.

[Matt_R]

147. Thank you for reporting them all...

I haven't seen one all day. Just goes to show the Juries working.

[Dorian Gray]

164. Exactly this

the hate piling on her is part of the societal problem. Hating Gillibrand while not mentioning the many men who are also on board with this is UGLY. And typical of a society that elected Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton.

[MrModerate]

189. By 'denigrating' you mean 'disagreeing with.'

And reputation can be lost in a moment with one stupid, craven act, as in this case.

Because being stupid and craven has cost Dems the world.

Gillibrand has disqualified herself from future consideration for higher office, or indeed the one she now holds.

[mcar]

201. Calling a Democrat a corporatist,

Tool of big tobacco, a "Gecko," and very conservative is denigrating.

Lots of us disagree with ALL the D senators who called for Franken to resign. But only one has been subject to such denigration. One has to wonder why.

[dansolo]

206. But calling Al Fraken a sexual assaulter is perfectly fine, apparently

I'm getting sick of this double standard. The only thing that Al was guilty of was taking an ill-advised picture, which he acknowledged an apologized for. He has denied every other accusation, but I don't see you defending him from being called something that is much worse than being called a corporatist.

[mcar]

213. I was responding to the previous poster's post

about disagreement vs denigration vis a vis Senator Gillibrand.

He has denied every other accusation, but I don't see you defending him from being called something that is much worse than being called a corporatist.

I have never seen a post from you in my near 16 years on this board. I don't report to you.

[PatrickforO]

227. Honestly, I have not seen ONE post on here calling Gillibrand a 'gecko'

Not one. Nor have I seen any posts on here calling any Democrat a 'tool of big tobacco.' We all know that if an industry has big representation in any given state, such as bioscience in MA, or aerospace in CO or CA, then that state's US Senator is going to be generally supportive of that industry. That's the way it is, because many of the voters will be employed in that industry. That's just politics, and it is why the practice of earmarking grew as a way to recapture federal tax dollars and bring them back to states.

But you knew this...sorry.

I mean, I've been pretty worked up about it, and my issue remains that I don't think Franken got a fair shake. However, it does look like the party machine has moved, and there will now be forceful rhetoric against both Trump and Moore. This forceful rhetoric will be yet another 'straw on the camel's back' in terms of pressuring propaganda outlets like Fox and Breitbart to 'report' on it.

I guess we'll see how it all shakes out.

But I still feel bad for Franken and am goddamn mad about his being made a 'sacrificial lamb' without due process. And, yes, those who did this will pay for the action in the primaries...maybe. From my end of things, though, they will only 'pay' in the primary if they are faced with an opponent who better represents my beliefs.

I saw another poster, one of the heavies on here, say that if you criticize the Dems for crucifying Franken without due process, then you can't be against Moore until he, too, gets due process. This, however, is not apples and apples. Franken is a sitting Senator, and there is a process to hold sitting Senators accountable for ethics and other violations. Whereas Moore is merely running for office, and for him, we must count on the 'fourth estate' to reveal the maggots under his rock. If he's elected, then he will be subject to the due process of the Senate, which Franken did not get.

So, there. I've cooled off, but I'm not going to forget, and my forgiveness will be selective, based NOT on gender, but on the ultimate outcome. Because as Machiavelli so famously said, 'the end always justifies the means.'

God help us if we come to believe that...

[mcar]

231. Right here in this very thread

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9962068

[PatrickforO]

232. Oh. Well, I'd have never said something like that.

Important to keep these discussions civil, and name calling isn't the way.

[mcar]

233. I agree

Which is why I responded the way I did.

[sheshe2]

251. Correct.

Women are held to a different standard than the men that called for Franken to step down. Nary a mention of them...and the taunt that she started it. Sounds like when my mom tried to break up fights when we were kids...well she started it. My mom never believed that for a moment.

[mcar]

252. And now I see on this board

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2017, 10:55 PM - Edit history (1)

that any woman making an accusation (see Lizza, Ryan) is assumed to be lying. We're back where we started, she.

[sheshe2]

255. Looks that way, mcar.

I guess we are at square one on the drawing board again. Breaks my heart.

[FarPoint]

161. I too echo your sentiment...

Did so immediately...No due process occurred...this is a Democracy... Franken suffered under character assination.

[KPN]

191. You can't speak for Franken regardless

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2017, 04:04 PM - Edit history (1)

of what you believe he might think or do.

[peggysue2]

203. Think you've nailed it

I was absolutely against how the whole Franken situation was handled and did not want to see the man resign. I also did not like the pile-on of his Dem colleagues, led by Gillibrand.

That being said, the outrage factor morphed into something beyond belief. Leave the Democratic Party? Not vote for Democratic candidates over this? Start a Lynch party for Senator Gillibrand?

Really?

The question should be who or what would all that negative energy benefit? Certainly not the Dems in 2018. Franken IMHO was a mistake. But compounding that error will not correct a misguided decision nor will constant posting about how evil Gillibrand and her Senate colleagues are win us any votes. Winning in 2018 is crucial, not only for the well-being of women but the country at large.

I think we need to be very careful in how outrage can be manipulated through social media. Someone reads something on FB and twitter, passes the tidbit along, the anger and frustration grows, multiplies and is then amplified, too often by those who do not have our best interests at heart.

I think the discussions are important but the over-the-top emotions, the burn the house down attitudes are ultimately destructive. Btw, I think our senators and congress critters are just as susceptible to this sort of message/emotionally driven manipulation. None of us are immune to this stuff. We really do need to be careful and always ask the question:

Who benefits?

[sheshe2]

234. Very good post, peggysue.

Who benefits?

Yup, exactly.

[BlueWI]

249. I appreciate your effort here to be measured in thinking about this issue.

I'm trying to get to that point, but I'm not there yet. I do think it's also possible to understate the magnitude of the breach in process and minimize how a lot of core Democratic voters feel about it - and not just the right wing. Dem voters, volunteers and staffers who admired and supported Al Franken, who do not get to be represented by him anymore due to this chain of events - there's emotion involved. With other factions within the Democratic base, this action against Franken taps into perceptions, fairly or unfairly, that the party leadership is disconnected from its base, cares about the base on election day, but soft-pedals the party's platform after that. Some of what you're seeing is pure frustration about what I think is a major error in judgment by a group of senators that we have all supported, donated to, been inspired by.

This is a not completely parallel example, but it's like the Dem votes in favor of the Iraq War Resolution - we'd all like to take the high road and be measured when we criticize other Dems, but sometimes the issue is bigger than the next election. The 38 Democratic Senators who pressured one of their colleagues to resign should have considered the unintended consequences more carefully, and in my opinion - before we go on to the practical matters of the next election, these senators need to hear from those who disagreed with the call-outs of Franken, so hopefully the rush to judgment and lack of attention to process will never be repeated.

I've expressed my opinions directly to my home state senator, Tammy Baldwin, and I'll be mailing my Bernie Sanders T-shirt back to his office with a note expressing my opinion as well. I would like to see all of the senators involved be very purposeful about explaining their decision, and at least some of them have started going at Trump with similar sentiments. But the decision that was made to publicly call out Franken on flimsy evidence has had a predictable response of unfocused outrage, some of it over the top, but in these times, what did they expect? Good public leaders should have anticipated that and accounted for it before going forward with a campaign against Franken.

[NYgal]

246. So your vote is for women, and always will be?? So Sarah Palin over Obama??

Other GOP women over progressive men??
Odd.

[sheshe2]

253. I said vote Democratic. I said vote for women...

I never said solely vote for women. I never said to vote GOP...please point out where I said that. Odd is that you say I did. Perhaps reread the OP.

NYgal
246. So your vote is for women, and always will be?? So Sarah Palin over Obama??

Other GOP women over progressive men??
Odd.

PS...I am a huge Obama supporter, always have been.

[grantcart]

5. I will chill after Tuesday, lol.

[sheshe2]

58. Yup

Me too. May the pedophile lose.

[Aristus]

6. ...

[sheshe2]

112. Hey.

Aristus.

[flamingdem]

7. Dear sheshe

I have to disagree. If we and all the other minions do not TOTALLY freakout it's business as usual. I'm not convinced that the leadership realizes what they've done. They ripped our hearts out. I'm not exaggerating. It was always Franken's turn at questioning that perked up my ears. He's so smart and humble too. He's the one Democratic Senator that for me, inspires love. Like Obama did.

So imagine how it feels that this was done in reaction to a rigged ratfuck lead by Roger Stone. That the leadership was so sloppy or ambitious for their own agenda that they let this travesty occur.

It's not forgivable. We may have to pretend that it is at some point but it will fester.

As with any relationship, if we don't process this OPENLY AND HONESTLY it will undermine.

The leadership has got to respond because there are so many of us on all parts of the spectrum.

I fear they will not.

And if so I feel our party is powerless. Our leaders powerless to do the right thing. We're victims of future ratfucking as well since this one worked out so well for the repugs, their Russian pals, and all those billionaires pulling the strings.

[Eko]

16. If you like Franken that much

then respect his decision to resign.

[flamingdem]

19. He was forced out

He could not stay there with his colleagues pushing him out.

If they come around, maybe. But I think he won't trust them now.

[Eko]

24. You mean he was

pressured to make a decision. Sure, I get that. Either he couldn't take the pressure and made his decision because of that or he had other reasons. I dont know, you dont know, but I wouldnt care how much pressure I had coming from my peers because they are not the ones that I am there for. So, I think it was because of other reasons because I believe he is strong enough to withstand their pressure. Could be he didnt want his family to go through this,,, maybe he thought this would give the Democrats a stronger position with women, but once again I dont know. I respect his decision.

[flamingdem]

27. Maybe he didn't want to make his family or himself go through the unfairness of being railroaded

You're implying that there was something nefarious there and he was ducking out.

That was not in his speech. He was pissed. Schumer called him all day to make him resign.

He can't work in the Senate without the support of the other senators, obviously.

[Eko]

35. I am not implying

anything nefarious at all. Why cant he work in the senate without the support of the other senators? Are they going to stop him from voting? Of course not. Isn't that the main reason he was put there?

[flamingdem]

38. This should be obvious to you. He's a team player and the team rejected him

making it not possible to continue to do his job.

He is not a masochist. Plus Schumer badgered him intensely to resign. Make sense of that..

[Eko]

47. What is obvious is that it does not take a team

to vote on something, sure he would have been blocked out of committees and things like that, not a good thing but his essential job of representing the people that sent him there still could have been done.

[sheshe2]

49. Link please to where he was badgered by Schumer?

TIA

[flamingdem]

51. Here it is - a quick search but there better sources if you look around

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/363682-schumer-called-met-with-franken-and-told-him-to-resign-report

[JimBeard]

70. He was baggered by Schumer and That evil woman that I shall never forget.

[bhikkhu]

149. 20 democratic senators lined up to ask him to resign

Including the minority leader. But what you will never forget is "that evil woman". Think about that - is it possible there is something wrong there?

This reminds me of things I've seen before.

[dansolo]

163. It wasnt 20 Senators initially

She was the ringleader. You are trying to lessen Gillibrand's role by misrepresenting what actually happened. She start the ball rolling and came out with the initial demand fir him to resign. The others followed.

[Dorian Gray]

166. It's that very attitude

the dehumanizing of women that led our country to elect Donald Fucking Trump.

I can't get over the disparity. Schumer and "that evil woman."

UGH!

[PatrickforO]

179. That isn't dehumanizing women. It is stating a fact. Gillibrand led the charge.

We must all be mindful that every single group of human beings, whether male, female, different racial and ethnic groups, LGBTQ, etc. all operate on a continuum of decency.

Most people are basically good, including Gillibrand. I don't think she's evil, but I do think she made a mistake - a political miscalculation that will hurt her in the future. I have called her office about it twice, and written several letters.

I also made a post here criticizing Bernie for piling on. In fact, I've called or written most of the people who called on Franken to resign.

Why? Because I simply don't believe he got a fair shake. If you've ever been accused of something you did not do, had the axe fall unfairly on you, and then had to start over and build yourself up, you would understand why I'm so vocal about this.

I'm not dehumanizing or attacking women. I'm simply protesting that one of the stronger voices in our party has been silenced basically because of a right-wing smear job.

'Zero tolerance' anything isn't a particularly good idea either. Having raised two children during the 80s, 90s and 00s, I heard many stories and even saw a couple of instances where a zero tolerance policy in effect threw out all discretion and common sense. In this situation, declaring 'zero tolerance' opens up ANY male in ANY political office to disgrace if the right wing simply throws a bit of mud, and then our people pile on with demands to resign.

I know you don't intend this consequence, and we should definitely have 'zero tolerance' for any violent and abusive acts toward women, but crucifying someone based on a right wing smear? C'mon. We need to use some judgment here.

[Dorian Gray]

220. Talking about her making a mistake

in leading the charge is very different than labeling her "That Evil Woman" when a reference to a male senator who agrees with her and who is the minority leader by name.

I agree that the intense push for Franken to go may be misguided. I think they should have gone to the ethics committee and investigated this thing before making any decisions.

But I do resent the uneven hatred that Gillibrand is getting for this whole thing. I don't think that's fair. It may very well be calculated politics. That's probably true of many positions politicians make. Regardless of their sex. I'm sure the senators all talked with one another before she led the charge. She wouldn't have done it if there wasn't support. So blaming her or hating her more than others irks me.

[Dorian Gray]

165. So, according to you...

he was "baggered" by Schumer and "that evil woman that I shall never forget."

Schumer has a name. THAT woman is referred by something other than her name.

Got it.

[JimBeard]

99. The republicans ears have perked up in Minnisota,

from a Minnesota newspaper. An eye opener

http://www.twincities.com/2017/12/10/with-franken-out-minnesota-politics-just-became-the-focus-of-the-nation/

With Franken out, Minnesota politics just became the focus of the nation

We’re gonna be lavished with attention. And maybe lathered with negative campaigning.

Thursday’s announcement by Sen. Al Franken that he’ll resign from office following allegations of sexual misconduct has made us the focus of the national political-industrial complex in advance of the November 2018 elections.

“It’s everything that the political junkie dreams about and everyday people detest,” said Larry Jacobs, director of the Center for the Study of Politics and Governance at the University of Minnesota’s Humphrey School of Public Affairs.

Here’s why it’s such big thing.

Minnesota is purple — a blend of red Republicans and blue Democrats. The state Legislature is controlled by Republicans. The biggest statewide elected offices — governor, attorney general, and both U.S. Senate seats — are controlled by Democrats.

And they’re all on the ballot in November.

Long article, you need to read it.

[flamingdem]

102. A tremendous boon for repugs in Minn

They have been thinking and plotting all weekend I bet

[geardaddy]

200. Exactly.

Slimy Norm Coleman has come out of the woodwork. I bet he'll run.

[delisen]

162. Schumer is the Democratic Minority Leader. Surely

you do not think this was organized without him.

Additionally he is reported to be working with governor Dayton on a replacement,

The former gov of Minnesota has just backed Franken and due process, and basically told Schumer to butt out of Minnesota elections

Schumer has been minority leader for just under a year, seems to be creating divisions, while not taking responsibility for his work

Let's not forget Schumer's "he likes me" open mic moment regarding Trump-or his taking credit for pressuring Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel-another controversial move which most commentators missed.

I would like Schumer to be more up front about his positions. He may be a political genius-I don't know-but I would like more transparency.

[flamingdem]

210. Good post, let's keep our eyes on Schumer, he's made some poor decisions

and we need transparency. I don't think he cares about accountability regarding Franken. Why was he so eager to chase him out? Schumer/Gillibrand 2020?

[Egnever]

225. I don't think he is a political genius.

I think he is meek and wish washy and willing to attempt to avoid controversy at every turn.

I was nervous when he was given the leadership position in the first place and so far he has not made me feel any better about it. This has put a huge stain on his leadership for me.

Hopefully he hears us and does something to rectify this situation.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

93. He'd be kicked off any important committee assignment

[Eko]

97. Very possible,

I stated that.

[Agschmid]

30. Yup.

[Drahthaardogs]

79. "We won't work with you anymore, so we suggest you resign"

Is not pressure. Closer to extortion I would say.

Nice try though

[Eko]

94. Was he sent to the Senate

to work with Democrats or to vote for his constituents?

[Drahthaardogs]

104. So all Senators do is vote?

That's your argument?

[Eko]

109. Nope

But that is the most important thing they do. Is there something else more important they do? You could say crafting legislation, but not all senators help craft all legislation, and being a Democratic Senator they dont do any now. So, what do they do right now that is more important?

[lapucelle]

258. The most important thing that Franken did was to ask a question

during a hearing that led to the Session's recusal and the appointment of Robert Mueller.

[Thor_MN]

119. The answer to that is yes.

But thanks for your efforts to sow division.

[Eko]

125. He was sent to work

with all Democrats, can you actually show this or is this just your opinion? Because I can tell you with 99% certainty that everyone who voted for him wanted him to represent his state. How is that sowing division? Do you think that everyone who voted for him wanted him to work with the "blue dog" democrats?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

132. I would have respected Franken's decision to resign IF his Senate colleagues were supportive

of the option of letting the ethics committee hearing play out and Franken had elected to bow out anyway.

[dchill]

73. NOT. HIS. DECISION.

[Eko]

96. Sure,

His decision to resign was not his decision. That makes perfect sense.

[dchill]

116. If you are told to resign by a majority of Senate Democrats...

then say you will resign, that was CLEARLY NOT your decision.

[Eko]

123. What an absurd claim.

So Fanken did not make that decision, they made if for him and he had to say those words. I dont think you understand what the word resigns means, here you go.
to give up deliberately; especially : to renounce (something, such as a right or position) by a formal act
to give up one's office or position

Notice the word "give up". That is not the word you would use when forced by others, maybe surrender,,,,,,

[dchill]

131. I "resign" from this "absurd" discussion.

"You can't fire me! I quit!"

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/363682-schumer-called-met-with-franken-and-told-him-to-resign-report

[Eko]

133. Ohhh,

obviously the pressure from Du people made you resign from this discussion and it wasn't your choice. I'm sorry I forced you to resign from this discussion.

[dchill]

134. "Du people..."

How many are you? Or is that like a Royal "We?"

[Eko]

137. I didnt want to assume it was just me,

forcing you to resign from this conversation, that seems a bit much,,, if it was just me making you resign, lol, that is even worse.

[dchill]

139. I'm sure there are good people on both sides.

[Eko]

143. I think it is good sense to tell you what side I am on.

I am on the Democratic side. The party as a whole and even singular as in the case of Franken. But beyond that, way, way, way beyond that I am on logic and facts side. We only know part of what is going on with Franken. There was a lot of pressure for him to resign, we can speculate on why but that is all we can do. There is also the fact the he resigned, sure with pressure but in the end the decision was his to make. We can speculate on why but that is all we can do. I tend not to speculate, its not much better than guessing. So here is what I know. Based on the track record of the Democratic party they have the best interests of America as their goal, based on the track record of Franken he has the best interests of America as his goal. I know these from facts that are easy to find and are widely verified. From that evidence and withstanding any conflicting evidence yet to show up I have to respect the decisions made by both parties.

[dchill]

148. There is no legitimate reason for them to know anything...

that WE do not. I seriously believe that it's all political ambition. In reality, I bet they're actually, in most cases, operating with LESS information than we have. It's kind of an isolated bubble on the Hill, after all.

Due process. Either way.

[Eko]

152. So you know more about this than Franken does?

Than the Democratic leadership does?
Outstanding buddy.

[dchill]

153. I have no idea what bubble you just popped out of.

[Eko]

154. So you are claiming to know more about this

Than Franken or the Democratic leadership does? Really. lol.

[dchill]

155. Again, bubble.

[Eko]

156. Well, you say so little

without saying anything, so unless you are willing to elaborate all you are doing is acting juvenile.

[dchill]

157. Just trying to be concise.

We all seem to make our own bubbles.

[Eko]

158. Wow. Like with resign

you are using concise in the wrong way. You have accused me, Franken and the Democratic leadership of being in a bubble without a single sentence explaining that. You are on the verge of an alert.

[dchill]

159. Go for it.

I don't even know what you're talking about. Where is the legitimate reason for forcing Franken's resignation? Where? Are we not old enough to know? Is it too hard for us to wrap our heads around?

Or are we just surrender monkeys?

[Eko]

160. You are the one pushing legitimate reason.

All I am saying is that Franken and the Democratic leadership know more about this than you or I. That I trust their decision over your knee jerk reaction and that for you to say "bubble" is interesting as it seems to be the world you live in. Apparently some very basic things are way too hard for you to wrap your head around, yes.

[pazzyanne]

215. As a Minnesota voter I find

that the discussion you have been holding lacks any true knowledge of what has happened. As a Minnesota voter, I resent having my vote taken away from me without due process occurring. Am I angry? You bet I am!

[Eko]

228. Yup,

None of us have any true knowledge of what has happened. I think Franken should have demanded a ethics investigation. Its a huge loss for you and us. But, he made the decision to resign and Ill respect that.

[NYgal]

248. He was shamed out by a bunch of people, led by Gillibrand, with their eyes on 2020

Meanwhile, none of them had called for Trump's resignation. Gillibrand refused to answer the question last week. Finally, today, she demands Trump resign. Day late, dollar short.

Gillibrand has one belief: in Gillibrand. She loved guns before she hated them. She hated Immigrants before she loved them. Please. I hope we in NY do primary her.

Oh, and I canNOT wait to see what Gillibrand and all her supporters say when accusations come out against a red state Dem senator. Wonder how pure her test will be then?

[sheshe2]

25. flamingdem.

I have to disagree. If we and all the other minions do not TOTALLY freakout it's business as usual.

Agree, yet business as usual will be the continued attack on women. We have been subject to this forever. I am not blaming Franken, that was wrong without the ethics committee. Yet we have been subject to attack in home, street, supermarket, everyplace we walk and workplace forever.

I'm not convinced that the leadership realizes what they've done. They ripped our hearts out. I'm not exaggerating. It was always Franken's turn at questioning that perked up my ears. He's so smart and humble too. He's the one Democratic Senator that for me, inspires love. Like Obama did.

Yes, they ripped our hearts out yet calling for all to be primaried is a disaster waiting to happen.

And if so I feel our party is powerless. Our leaders powerless to do the right thing. We're victims of future ratfucking as well since this one worked out so well for the repugs, their Russian pals, and all those billionaires pulling the strings.

So. We just we just primary them all and roll over and die? That does not work for me.

[flamingdem]

32. If anyone called for all of them to be primaried it was a few people the huge majority of us want

justice for Franken and for ourselves.

That would have been an ethics investigation, in the hurry they blew that to pieces and haven't given solid reasons why.

As far as being women, it's ridiculous to dump this on a man who is supported by the women who worked with him for 20 years and has been a champion for women.

I could care less if he squeezed someones waist, or attempted a kiss, plus if examined the charges are mostly spurious


This is not in any way shape or form helpful to the conversation about women's rights.

[orleans]

52. agree with all your posts here

thank you.

[flamingdem]

53. thanks

for the support

[calimary]

80. I do, too. Besides, anything that has Roger Stone involved in any way is NOT on the up 'n' up.

Al Franken was railroaded.

[orleans]

141. exactly n/t

[brooklynite]

39. Perhaps then, the problem is freaking out her.....

....where it’s going to have no impact.

[rainy]

48. Im with you. It was a visceral punch in

stomach. Painful to watch the whole trip go down

[cwydro]

142. Good post.

[Pachamama]

146. +1000

Completely agree....

[bagelsforbreakfast]

8. Either they stand for justice or they stand for nothing but their own skins 😣

[sheshe2]

26. How about justice for women?

Does that count? Do we?

Yet you did not answer, do you wish all off them primaried?

[bagelsforbreakfast]

28. Read my response again.👞

[sheshe2]

72. And?

If you meant women you could just have said it. Not sure why you had to snark. It was not necessary.

[JimBeard]

85. One has to watch what they say her but they canot walk into a ballot booth with me.

Answering to sheshe2

[Mme. Defarge]

29. Damn straight!

[JoeOtterbein]

12. Yes, we need to protect America. Now is not the time for sweating unless you are working to elect...

...Dems and Women!

[LexVegas]

15. Its just temporary tantrums. nt

[flamingdem]

21. Not really, Gillibrand is toast after this

and quite possibly Harris as well.

The #metoo movement is wrapped up in this party mistake and the fantasy of gaining the presidency by appealing to third wave feminists is pretty much shown to be a poor idea

Tantrums are short lived, this won't be

[sheshe2]

33. Ouch.

The #metoo movement is wrapped up in this party mistake and the fantasy of gaining the presidency by appealing to third wave feminists is pretty much shown to be a poor idea

Tantrums are short lived, this won't be

I like you, yet this hurts. Women=Tantrums. You equate women to tantrums? WTF? Our Fantasy of gaining the Presidency? FYI...not a fantasy. Hillary won. Your post is hurtful.

[flamingdem]

42. The above person used that term

My point is that we're not having some short term fit as implied.

The fantasy is that millenials and GOP women will jump on board with demos promoting zero tolerance. I don't
believe in that and think this shows it won't work as a strategy. I consider that the positive
result, the silver lining is that the trial balloon, as mentioned in another thread, may have popped.

This has nothing to do with Hillary, I agree she won!

[kcr]

180. You might want to look again. It's someone siding with you using the term "tantrums"

Yeah, so apparently some women are throwing tantrums. But it's those of us defending Franken. Nice, huh?

[stevenleser]

45. Why did you specifically call out the third wave here? That seems somewhat arbitrary...

... the second and third waves do have some differences but their approach to harassment and inappropriate touching is identical as is the approach of any feminist.

[herding cats]

78. First off, #metoo is not about third wave feminist.

Secondly, I’m not sure what a third wave feminist is to you, exactly, but I’m pretty sure It’s a mistake to equate the two. #metoo is about victims of sexual harassment. I agree it’s being marginalized by some jerks out there, but that’s not a “third wave feminist thing” it’s a RW thing.

Thirdly, I too, like Franken and I’m pretty damn sure we’re gonna be hearing from him telling us to chill the fuck out. Before you get upset with me for saying this, wait and see what Franken says about how we’re acting, ok? I’m not trying to fight, I’m just banking on Franken seeing the potential disaster we’re about to hit head on and trying to save us from ourselves. He’s smart and he’s the last person to want to see all this be a boon for the Trump humpers out there.

Women have been and do live this reality every damn day. That’s what makes this a potentially perfect storm for the GOP to divide us on. I don’t want that to happen if I can avoid it. You cannot give a blanket dismissal to all the heartfelt women who’ve said what they’ve experienced just because you’re angry over Franken. Neither can I.

Please, think about that.

[flamingdem]

83. We know he's a gentleman. THAT IS WHY he shouldn't have been forced out

You made my point. Plus, he's loyal

[herding cats]

92. I made your point? Seriously, thats your takeaway?

You may want to reread me and maybe take a bit more time on all my words this time?

I like you. I know you’re upset, and I can totally empathize with where you’re coming from, but dismissing others out of hand isn’t helpful to any of us.

[flamingdem]

100. Okay I reread, you're making the point

that Al is highly aware of his unfortunate role in a very real movement sweeping the country. And how trumpsters could use it - but I think it was clear from his speech he was angry and he never would have resigned if not forced out.

Did you see I posted the article about Schumer badgering him to resign. It wasn't his choice which makes me worried about our leadership and the decisions they make. It doesn't make sense to me, it's an overreaction. The gop got what they wanted and we may lose a seat

[herding cats]

121. Thank you.

I didn’t now or ever want to see Franken step down without his hearings. I don’t know what Franken’s thinking was exactly, though. I know I want to apply my thinking to him but just because I like him doesn’t mean we’re thinking on the same line. I’ve learned that lesson the hard way in the past.

Personally, I think it was a mistake, and I think we agree with each other on that?

However, I also think it’s a mistake to blame this on women who support and/or relate to the the #metoo movement. Actually, it’s a mistake in general to blame this on women. That’s the trap the GOP wants us to step in here. Yes, we need to hold our leadership to task, but they’re just as up against a wall as the rest of us here.

So, what’s the solution? Honestly, what’s your advice?

[flamingdem]

128. Thank you too

That's a very good point about not blaming this on the women in #metoo. That is a danger here. And a trap.

I think the initial problem is the way this decision came down. A group headed by Gillibrand that included Harris and other female senators decided to cut him loose if another incident occurred. That is not okay because it didn't allow time to examine the accusations, most of which were minor or suspect. I think they're powerful women, sick of the abuse, then Schumer badgered him to resign. He didn't want to resign, and he knew it was wrong and unfair. Menendez was able to stay for example.

I think everything should be discussed as a party that is open with its members. I'm disturbed to hear Bernie already blew off questions about this. They're going to lock arms and shut us up.

I can't abide by that. They made an error of false equivalency, they have egg on their collective faces and won't own up. I just can't help but lose my respect for them.

Eventually we'll get over it but a wrong has happened on many levels. I'm especially uneasy about the kind of thinking revealed by Gillibrand, she's just not cut out for leadership in my opinion.

[sheshe2]

136. We are all up against a wall.

Actually, it’s a mistake in general to blame this on women. That’s the trap the GOP wants us to step in here. Yes, we need to hold our leadership to task, but they’re just as up against a wall as the rest of us here.

You nailed it. At times we are physically...

[JHan]

150. Liberals sounding like Conservatives on this site

with the dismissive "third wave feminists" thrown in ..and given that the dem base is made up of women.

"The #metoo movement is wrapped up in this party mistake and the fantasy of gaining the presidency by appealing to third wave feminists is pretty much shown to be a poor idea

The MeToo movement is bigger than Al Franken and bigger than Kirsten Gillibrand.

[disndat]

207. Agree

Gillibrand stepped on a live wire (Clinton fans and A.F worshippers) and self immolated.

[Hoyt]

18. +1 bazillion!

[Bettie]

20. I don't think they need to be primaried

but I will not vote for any of them in a presidential primary.

If one is the eventual 2020 nominee, I'll hold my nose and vote for them.

[MustLoveBeagles]

50. This

A lot of Dem's are very angry about this and I don't blame them. I'M angry. I feel betrayed by the DNC leadership and the Senator's who called for his resignation. I think they've made a terrible mistake. Nevertheless I WILL vote for the Democratic Nominee in 2020 no matter who it is.

[calimary]

98. Welcome to DU, MustLoveBeagles!

Plopped down into one of our conundrums, 'eh?

I'm with you on one thing - I will reluctantly vote for one of those Dems if that's what I have to choose from for my party's nominee. But during the primaries, I'm going to remember who ganged up on Al Franken and ran him out of town without due process. And without ANY effort to look into who was behind the accusations against him. And I'm sorry - "he grabbed my waist..." uh - and that was IT? THAT isn't even close to any sort of "sexual misconduct"! Especially when you compare it to "grab 'em by the pussy" or the 30-something pervert who had to be barred from the local mall for trolling little girls.

Wonder if Gillibrand has ever heard the one about "innocent til proven guilty"?

[MustLoveBeagles]

126. Thank you for the warm welcome calimary

[Angry Dragon]

22. GOOD ADVICE

[rainin]

23. Is it a democratic value to silence people we don't agree with?

I think not.

[McCamy Taylor]

36. Is Divide and Conquer the GOP's favorite political tool?

You betcha.

[orleans]

55. then why the hell were our senators so stupid to fall for it????

and eat one of our own????

[flamingdem]

60. They've had the weekend to think it through

and if they don't address the outpouring of support and outrage they are making another error in my opinion

[orleans]

67. oh, i suspect they'll all want to "move on"

just like bernie "moved on" during meet the press today.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029959651

[sheshe2]

40. Please explain where I silenced anyone.

I said Chill.

I will wait here for your response.

[rainin]

138. It seems straightforward to me.

You said to chill the fuck out, which I interpret to mean you'd like those of us who are angry about what our senators did to Franken to be quiet.

Who says "chill the fuck out" and acts confused by the meaning?

[sheshe2]

144. Sorry, it means chill out period.

ie calm down.

I asked that the members of our party take a breath.

I read and seldom post here anymore. Thread after thread after thread is Democrats suck. Seriously, it is Democratic Underground and all I see is bashing Democrats.

I do not like what happened. However I have read posts here, calling for all Dems to be primaried if they called for Franken to step down. This is so wrong and it is how we will lose.

[Demit]

145. Do you seriously believe that there are party bigwigs on DU that can field candidates?

It seems to me that any calling for senators to be primaried here has merely been a way of expressing an opinion. I don't see how it can have any weight in the real world activity of running statewide candidates.

If you were to show us a post exhorting people to sign petitions to get a particular candidate on the ballot, or show us a post wherein someone is putting forth names of possible challengers, then I could understand your panic. But that's not happening.

This is a discussion forum. Until someone here makes a real-world move to activate the real-world process of running a challenger to primary a sitting senator, why don't YOU take a breath, and relax, and let people express their reactions to what just happened in a way that seems fitting to them?

[Denzil_DC]

238. Posting an OP whose title includes the phrase "Chill the F**K OUT!" (your caps)

is a very strange and counterproductive way of asking (I'm being generous here) people to calm down.

This is so wrong and it is how we will lose.

Welcome to the current reality.

There are a majority of DU members posting here who are genuinely angry about what's happened. They're frequently told they're "pouting", it's a "tantrum", "move on" and in the keystrokes one currently persistent poster about all this that I've had to put on ignore because otherwise I'll probably end up with another hide myself, .

With friends like these, those who were instrumental in the injustice against Franken do not need enemies.

[Glorfindel]

31. No, I won't, but thank you for your concern.

[LenaBaby61]

56. No, I won't, but thank you for your concern.

+1,000

[still_one]

34. I dont want them primaried, I just dont want them running for President

[bagelsforbreakfast]

37. Who appointed you God?👖

[sheshe2]

44. Woah...

I made that point where? Where did I say I was GOD...If I tried for a diety I would have said Goddess...I do not believe in God.

[nini]

208. I did

[McCamy Taylor]

41. I try to stay chill, but I am so sick of all this Divide and Conquer.

Divide and Conquer is the GOP's favorite tool and the Internet is such a easy place to stage a Divide and Conquer operation. It is like Pat Buchanan's Dirty Tricks memo from 1972 on steroids.

[secondwind]

43. +1,000. We need to stop already.

[flamingdem]

46. We need better recognition of the outrage and better communication from leadership

Because it was not clear and not justifiable.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

54. This BRings to mind they quote about Napolean

Being a lover of peace after he invaded your country!👜

[AlexSFCA]

57. its unfortunate that we are also taking a bait

and damage and divide our party even more. I don’t want any if those to be primaried but I also feel a lot less enthusiasm and optimimism now. I’ll keep an open mind until after tuesday. If moore wins, are dem senators willing to fight for ethics investigation, engage those accusers, try (for once), dominate the news cycle?
How is it that the late night talk shows are more accurate than any news networks?

If moore loses, then there is hope in the world and we can all celebrate a little. Wouldn’t it be fun if moore loses and then franken retracts his resignation? trolling trump with his own weapon. Such bold move would supercharge and ignite the dem base going into 2018 and would gain respect from indepentents and even many rethugs. No negotiation with domestic terrotists, no playing nice.

Bottomline, democrats need to show strengh, bold statements, the era of political correctness is long gone, no more holding back.

[flamingdem]

63. In my dreams that would happen

sigh

[NYC Liberal]

59. I agree. But I'm also not happy with Gillibrand for refusing to also call for Trump's resignation

when she was asked point-blank about it.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

65. Big tobacco - she's a 'Geccko"💄

[Jakes Progress]

61. Last sentence okay. Rest is bullshit.

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2017, 12:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Suppose breittrat did a number on Warren and Franken joined other senators in making her resign. You would be okay with that? Suppose the lie was that Warren was taking money from the kochs. Then they went after Markey and Gellibrand. How about if the republican lie machine got three girls to swear that Bernie was molesting them. That okay with you? By your reckoning, that would mean that all those liberals should resign. How is that strong?

Put out your own hair and don't tell other people what to care about. No one said not to vote for a Democrat. We are not strong when the republicans play us like a drum and win because we play to the polls and not to the ideals of the party.

[KPN]

193. THIS

[spicysista]

62. Right on!

This infighting must stop! We are all on the same side here. Let's direct our righteous anger towards the real enemies. Those who would wish to roll back our voting rights, control our bodies, snatch away health care, tear down our public schools, separate families, empower the police state......these are our true enemies. I try to stay positive, but the successful dividing of our party is starting to worry me.
Senator Franken chose to step down because he is an honorable man who wishes to move the conversation forward. We should all join him in this task. Not by taking down our own senators (it was more than the senator from New York), but by using this moment to shine a light on the indiscretions of the other party. Over and over and over again. Experience teaches us the power of setting the narrative. We can not do that if we're eating our own. Don't let Sen. Fraken's sacrifice be for nothing. Follow his lead, if you truly support him. Respect his decision.

[dflprincess]

64. No I won't

it's my senator who is being forced out by a bunch of cowards who fell for a Republican hit job. Now that this one has been successful, who do you think they'll go after next?

[suegeo]

175. Hey we've met before

at DU outings downtown, Fongs, that first one at CHI CHIs that's now a Menards.

Anyway, can you image the exhausting, ugly shit show Minnesota's gonna be with this and the other seats in play?

I thought we could finally exhale when Jason Lewis moved to whatever southern hell hole, and he came back.

After all the shite that went down during the Bush Junta AND NOW THIS?
I feel violated and furious. Amy Koch, Michael Brodkorb, the Burrito Barron, Bachman

[geardaddy]

202. +1 n/t

[Owl]

66. No way! We aren't sweeping this unjustice under the rug!

Wake up!

[peequod]

68. You know who is also not a piece of meat to be thrown to the wolves?

I agree that women's safety in the workplace and everywhere should be paramount in our consideration, but Sen. Gillibrand needs to apologize to Al Franken, the party, and to Bill and Hillary Clinton for rushing to judgment with her leadership in this purity crusade of hers. Will she do it? Pfft! That's why she needs to go, she doesn't realize she's crossed the line, just like Al Franken, right? Time to pack it up and get herself a lobbying job, no doubt. Where was she re Sen. Menendez' ethical issues? Or does she selectively focus on sexual harassment issues when it comes to fellow Dems?

[mudstump]

69. This isn't a time to resign....

it's time to stand and fight back. The stakes have never been higher. When our reps don't fight for us...why should we fight for them.

[flamingdem]

87. And reality is we may lose Franken's seat, a critical seat, to a repug

How could they have allowed this to happen?

[Demsrule86]

71. Of course not. I do not believe sitting Senators or House members should face a primary

in this "GOP has it all environment" But, those who spoke out against Franken on the flimsiest of evidence and allowed the right wing to railroad him should not run for president. I will not vote for any of them in a primary. In a general, I vote for the Democrat no matter what.

[bench scientist]

74. Question

I agree women have been denied due process for far too long. Sexual assault should be taken seriously.
However, exactly how does denying someone else due process achieve the goal of having women listened to?
What about the dozens of women who worked with Franken for him both in the Senate and SNL who signed their names in a letter of support for him?
What about their voices? Are they not credible? Why should we not also consider what they say?
4 of Franken’s accusers are anonymous.
2 have ties to right wing liars and known rat fuckers.
The remaining 2 offer very flimsy accounts .
The due process for a Senator is an Ethics Committee hearing. Depending on the findings a Senator may be absolved, censured or expelled.
Why could that not have happened?

[Dalton Mac]

75. In Agreement

To be honest, I don't have a firm opinion on the Franken thing. I lean toward "he shouldn't have been pressured to step down," but my wife--who is also a Democrat--is very clear that he had to go. But primarying every Dem who wanted him gone is just plain suicidal.

[sheshe2]

95. Thank you Dalton, and welcome to DU.

Thanks for answering the question so many did not answer.

But primarying every Dem who wanted him gone is just plain suicidal.

[Dalton Mac]

103. Thangyu

Thanguverimuch. (Admit it: for a moment, you though Elvis was in the same room as you, right?)

[sheshe2]

105. Ha!

[Kirk Lover]

77. Pelosi got blowback for defending and hedging on Conyers...they weren't going to make

that mistake again. It is my understanding that these female Senators have been talking about these allegations among themselves and they personally did not like them. They agreed that if one more allegation came out they were pulling their plug of support. They are kinda between a rock and hard place here.

[flamingdem]

81. That's a poor way to make decisions. The latest one was he said / she said and what??

He wanted a kiss? Before he was a senator. In 2006. He should be forced out for that just because this group decided "one more time". The gop is winning here.

[Kirk Lover]

84. He shouldn't of resigned then...not sure why he did. n/t

[flamingdem]

89. See above the article about how Schumer forced him out

or google it.

[disndat]

209. come to Think about it

Schumer and Trump are personally good friends. Schumer is also a good friend of Wall St. Maybe Franken was getting too
effective in his probe with Sessions. A case of a Perfect Storm that took down Franken.

[JI7]

120. Pelosi did the right thing with Conyers. she waited to hear more including from the women who

actually worked for conyers.

with Franken it's obviously a right wing hit job.

[mcar]

82. Kick for sanity

I can't believe what is posted here sometimes.

[herding cats]

86. This is classic divide and conquer on us again.

And we’re lining up like mindless lemmings to dive off the cliff.

[flamingdem]

90. That is not a correct read of the very correct reaction against forcing Franken out

The leadership had better address this because it's about quality of leadership, not divide and conquer

[brer cat]

88. A rational post!

What a concept. Think it will catch on?

[sheshe2]

124. Hey you.

Catch on...probably not.

DU is #$%^&*&^T%R$ER%^%$%^&*&^T%RT%^Y#$%^&*(I*&^%$#@#$%^&*I(OP{

Sigh.

[BlueCaliDem]

108. I'm hurt and upset about what happened but NO WAY will I try and weaken the Democratic Party

just because of my emotional state! The Democratic Party is all we have between total destruction of our democracy and totalitarianism under tRUmp's illegitimate presidency.

[sheshe2]

115. I am with you Blue.....................

I am hurt and upset as well, yet will never leave my party. We will all die if we do, and sadly may die before we have the next chance to vote. I never sit out a vote, Never.

I love ya Good to see you again.....

[BlueCaliDem]

173. Birds of a feather...

I love ya, too, she! It's good to see you, as well.

[Kirk Lover]

135. Preach

[Jakes Progress]

205. Who is calling to weaken the party.

You didn't think it weakened the party to oust a leading liberal intellectual. How would ousting fuzzy liberals who chase polls instead of republicans do any worse.

If the Democratic Party that eats its own just to try (emphasize try) to get a little press and points is all we have between total destruction and trump, then we need a better Democratic party.

A party that will admit its stupid move and fix the issue would be one that wouldn't have to change.

[Binkie The Clown]

110. No I will not chill out. Chilling out is why we keep getting steam-rollered. nt

[Scruffy1]

113. What the hell is wrong with being primaried?

That is the whole basis of our Democracy. It makes good candidates better and weeds out the weak. I learned a long time ago that no matter how good you are at doing what you do there is always someone as good or better. A good candidate would welcome challengers just like any good athlete welcomes competition.

[Bibluca]

117. Absolutely

If all these senators of either sex who forced Franken out, are so sure they're in the right, they shouldn't be a bit bothered by a competitive primary.

Neither should their staffers, who are here on DU apologizing.

[mcar]

172. Their staffers?

Who here on DU is a Dem staffer? I'd love to know.

[Demsrule86]

186. It is not a good idea when the GOP has absolute power...money needs to be spent and time of course,

to go after Republican seats...incumbents have an advantage. I don't want any Dems who were on board to get rid of Franken primaried...I just won't vote for them in a primary...will vote for a different Democrat. Of course in a general, I vote Democratic regardless of who the nominee is...a yellow dog is better than a Republican.

[Lotusflower70]

114. Nope

My Senator got used as a pawn for political purposes and my state is being fucked with. It's not time to take a breather and chill. Our voices as voters were ignored by someone going for a power grab. I am pissed as hell.

[Ken Burch]

122. Well put.

It's time to move past this and focus on the work we have to do in '18 and '20.

[nini]

140. As pissed as I was I reminded myself I do not agree with anyone all the time

I love Obama but did not agree with everything he did. Same for every other politician I like.

This one burned a bit because Franken was a victim here, but when push comes to shove there is no way I won't support those Senators. We're in a war right now for the survival of this country and we have to stick together and fight like hell.

[get the red out]

151. Agree

I have been avoiding most of these threads just hoping people are expressing anger and frustration that the party will get through and past. No one in office is going to only do things I agree with, but I don't support throwing the baby out with the bath water, as the saying goes.

[LBM20]

168. But I guess Al Franken and due process WERE "pieces of the meat to be thrown to the wolves" right?

And, you don't just "vote for women." We vote for CANDIDATES, male or female, who have the right platform, the right messaging, and who can win. Enough of identity politics!

[LBM20]

169. We will see if SHE and THEY hold a great big press conference demanding that Trump resign.

[lapucelle]

259. Does today's CNN interview with Christne Amanpour count?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/12/11/sen_gillibrand_donald_trump_should_resign_over_sexual_harassment_claims.html

[VOX]

170. Yeah, Im not happy, but Ill still be voting for/supporting Democratic candidates anywhere possible.

This is an intra-clan scrap, and I’ve got my opinions, etc., but when it comes down to supporting monetarily and volunteering and marching and voting, it’ll be for Democrats.

Like anyone, I like some Democrats better than others. A few even rub me the wrong way. But I would vote for any of them on any ballot over a third-party candidate or a (gag) Republican.

[suegeo]

174. I am not gonna chill out

And I'm not nuts.

It's my senator they are throwing out based on a thin gruel of evidence and republican rat fucking.

The vote riggers and the republicans (they're one in the same, what am I saying?) will steal the seat, and the whole state is going to be roiled. I am already exhausted by Coup 2016 and Nazis marching with torches in the streets.

I already marched, I already volunteered I already donated money. All of that was stolen from me by mobsters in bed with Putin.

My hair is on fire because I've been paying attention to what's going on and it's really fucking scary.

[ck4829]

176. "Chill out"... "Our lives and livelihood is at stake". I'm sorry, this is the problem I keep seeing

I am told this is the fight for our lives, and I believe it... The words of others and what I see personally. My nephew, the closest I have to progeny, who suffers from a rare disease and has to take expensive medicine every day, my whole family worries about what is going to happen if CHIP programs are cut or of course when he gets older. What if he needs a transplant?

I am tired of being told to chill out. I am tired of other people acting like this is a storm we can just hunker down and ride out until next year, I don't have that option if CHIP is cut. I actually know Muslim Americans and refugees, I've never told them that in a year, it will all be OK because it's ludicrous, when I see ACT for America with Trump on speed dial just saying "We're not there yet" when someone says to kill all the Muslims.

This isn't some storm to ride out, this is a war, and I'm not seeing anything beyond "Fill out appropriate paperwork and maybe in a year we can change this... maybe."

[jalan48]

181. Is that what we told Hillary supporters after the election last year?

People will not chill out over perceived injustices, and they shouldn't.

[treestar]

183. I'm start to Chill the F**K out

GOTV for that seat in 2018 - so we don't have a Hillary and presume it is safe (I've seen that sentiment here)

[MrModerate]

184. I dunno. Being brainless, cowardly, and driven by the herd is kind of a litmus test for me. n/t

[MrModerate]

185. I'll support any qualified Dem of whatever gender . . .

Who opposes bad Democrats in primaries. Otherwise, why bother having values?

[LakeArenal]

187. I Stand With AL.

I resent that in that support, I supposedly am: against women, throwing a tantrum, should be careful what I say here, and dividing the Party.. That's what's crazy.

Those things the infamous "list" has succeeded in. We were solidly with Al until these more than suspicious claims.

For me, a Schumer/ Gillibrand ticket was looking pretty good to them.. Except... Al is (not was) way more popular, so a concerted effort to eliminate the completion.. I think many are naïve to think G. has no political ambition. That all she stands for is women? She is supposed to be for the people. She now appears two faced with the Clinton statement and then Franken. She's done all this to herself. Franken supporters are letting her know.

Best laid plans...

She, I have great respect for you.. But swearing at me and telling me to chill the "f" out and our livelihood is at stake is not helping.
Franken's livelihood is as important as anyones.

There are just too many Franken supporters here and everywhere. The was a very bad plan by the "list", whether G. is the nexus of that plan or not. For many of us, there has to be a resolution that we like. No one has given us any reason to stop our support of Al Franken.

[bronxiteforever]

190. I believe we are on the brink of a dictatorship.

I strongly disagree what our team did to Senator Franken. However I do believe Trump will fire Mueller soon and if there was ever a time to be united-it is now. I truly believe there won’t be anything left of the institutions that Al fought for if we don’t have a game plan for this.

The Russian bots and moneyed trolls are lined up to keep Franken in the news nonstop. Because there are dark deeds to do while we engage in a circular firing squad. The Russian and bot influence is great, it is difficult to have party discussions because trusting the origin of these discussions is also a problem. Is an argument inside the Democratic Party trending because of a Russian algorithm or because of the issue? This question already shows the deep nefarious tentacles of the bad guys.

The dark is rising and it is at our doorstep. So yeah I am going to be unhappy but I agree with the post.

[110liberal]

192. sheshe2

Where is the outrage over Tweenten grabbing a guitar player's ass and wrapping her leg around Robin Williams crotch. This a victim!! As for politicians what the public is doing is judging the politicians ability to make sound judgments. All 32 have felled this test. As I have said before this high ground standard will get you nothing in the elections. I believe Jones will win in Alabama but the only reason Moore is competitive is a lot of Alabama women are supporting him. As for the Russian, taking out Al Franken is a good win for them.

[lark]

195. Disagree strongly.

I am a rape attempt survivor and know I was just lucky that the guy was so drunk I was able to escape. I was also a certified rape counselor in San Jose decades ago and totally disagree with your statements. Believing all women, when there are people like Kim Davis around is stupid and suicidal for our party and these congress-critters just gave the rw a free pass to kill all Democrats. It is a hair on fire moment. Tweeden is a plant, planned this with Sean Hannity and Roger Stone and is Twitter buddies with Don Jr. for years. The picture isn't what she says and this is verified by at least 2 other people that were there when it was taken, yet you want to give her the power to kill off Franken? One of the other complaints is Franken squeezed someone's waist - give me a fucking major break! Where is the truth? That is what is important. I don't care if she was a model, irrelevant, but lying about assault isn't. Women need to be heard - 100%, but discernment is needed to find the truth. Franken was railroaded without a hearing and that is just ''
wrong!

edited to fix typo

[flamingdem]

211. Good to hear from someone who's been there and knows how to differentiate

The waist squeezing thing should be an SNL joke not something that determines votes in the Senate

[MoonRiver]

196. Sheshe2 I have complete respect for you.

But in the primaries we always have choices. One factor that will effect my choice is who called for Franken's ouster, before he was allowed due process. I will of course vote for the Democratic nominee in the general. That said, I will make my own informed decisions in the primary.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

197. Please don't give Putin what he wants

Primarying sitting Senators is Putin's divisive plan. He's encouraging Bannon also on other side.

He doesn't care who wins. Republican Congress, Democratic Congress; he doesn't care.

He just wants divisiveness.

[Politicub]

204. Im with you

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:10 PM - Edit history (1)

The handwringing over Franken is getting ridiculous.

[Gothmog]

212. K&R

[NoMoreRepugs]

214. If it was orchestrated by Roger Stone

or someone like him... mission accomplished. The angst, animosity and bickering in just this thread is to me pretty indicative of why we lose elections - Rethugs, no matter how reprehensible the candidate get in line behind her/him... Dems? Parsing and hand wringing and apathy.... not exactly the group that's going to win many street fights... and that to me is what elections have become.

I apologize for the ramblings of an old man.

[Taraman]

216. I understand the sentiment but

I liked Al Franken, and I think he was treated very unfairly. It offends my sense of justice and feel that his (forced) resignation sets a bad precedent. It makes me angry! Being told that my feelings are unjustified or I should just chill out makes me more angry.

BTW, I'm a retired, lifelong Democrat who lives without any representation in a red state. If we throw away our ethics, what are we?

[NoMoreRepugs]

217. I agree with u Taraman...

I think throwing Franken under the cement truck was a travesty and shame on his fellow legislators. We can't give up our ethics, but can't we figure out a way for all of us to pull on the same damn rope. Just not used to being this frustrated, especially when the opposition is so wrong about EVERYTHING.

[Taraman]

223. I've pulled on the rope

my whole life. I worked a number of campaigns, mostly losing ones. I'm not threatening to primary anyone, but then, I can't where I live.

However, I do know that my attitude toward some of our leaders will shift. They may be interviewed on TV and I'm not interested in what they have to say. Leadership is a 2-way street, after all.

Actions matter.

[MadDAsHell]

218. Everyone should be primaried every election.

As much as some of us treat them like it, these people aren’t royalty.

[DownriverDem]

224. Naive young Dems

It looks like they didn't learn anything from the Nov 2016 election. It's politics you naive young Dems. Your future is almost destroyed and you think hurting the Dem Senators and 2 independents is going to help you how?

Maybe these folks are really repubs. They sure as hell do not understand politics.

[Kirk Lover]

240. Good Post.

[stonecutter357]

229. you take a deep breather and Chill the F**K OUT!

[ananda]

230. No, I'm not nuts! Just up front and honest!

I contacted both Gillibrand and Sanders and told them
they were wrong and why, and that they should go after
the REAL predators like 45 and Moore supporters!

If they get enough responses, that will matter!

[flamingdem]

237. Here's her phone number for those who wish to express an opinion

According to the other post they actually answer the phone and listen!

https://www.gillibrand.senate.gov/contact/office-locations

[BamaRefugee]

236. My reccomendation ofr the song at the end of Gillibrand's 2020 campaign rallies!

[link:

&list=RDhzTeLePbB08|

[fleabiscuit]

239. Spot on sheshe. ++++++++

But wow. The pot of anonymity brews some really strange shit.

[Honeycombe8]

241. Who said to oust ALL the Dem Senators?

Not voting for those who have shown they don't have a spine, or who make terrible judgments on a whim, or put their own political interests above the country...is exactly what people SHOULD do.

There are good Dems out there. We need some LEADERS. Not folks who go along to get along. Notthose who are afraid or jealous of other, more popular Senators.

I'll vote in my state. For the Presidential race, I'll see who's running, but the Democratic candidate should not be any of those who ate Franken for expediency in getting him away...not out of vengeance, but because they have shown they are not leaders and have bad judgment.

[sheshe2]

242. Is that true of the two Independents as well?

You only spoke about the Democrats.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

244. I've been very conflicted about this issue since well before Franken was accused.

But I agree with you that it's wrong to abandon the women of Congress who called for Franken's resignation, even for those who disagree with them on this matter.

Please check out my OP on the this and let me know what you think: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029965535

[sheshe2]

256. I just read your thread and commented.

Thank you, DSK, you did that well. You were fair and balanced in your OP and your responses well thought out. It is good when cooler heads prevail.

[NYgal]

245. Gillibrand is an opportunist of the first degree!! She is my senator and I want her primaried

So I do apologize for disagreeing, but to demand Franken resign without due process after refusing to call for Trump to resign last week - she is SUCH an opportunist!!!
Oh, and day late and a dollar short, calling for Trump to resign - finally - TODAY

And maybe she and the others who railroaded Franken out of time should have thought about creating division by pushing one of our most powerful voices out with no fair hearing.
This is ALL about 2020 for Gillibrand.

[Tarheel_Dem]

254. Right on She! Good Democrats are giving cover to those who always have nothing but complaints....

about the party and its infrastructure. They were gone for a while, but they came back in force to finish what they started. "WE are strong". And no single legislator is worth playing into the "Putin/GOP handbook".

I'm old enough to remember the same level of outrage around here when the first allegations were leveled against Anthony Weiner. Turns out even though he was a valuable "progressive voice", he was also a perv. Good men do stupid things all the time. I'm hoping that if Roy Moore wins, Al will change his mind, and the Ethics Committee can go to work on both of their cases.

I, for one, am proud of our Democratic women for taking a stand on this issue, and suffering the slings and arrows of a pissed off base. I think they will be rewarded by their constituents for putting principles over party (in this case).

[sheshe2]

257. Hey Tarheel.

Weiner was a bad apple...as is Moore. Goddess, those pervs need to be gone and stay gone. I hope he loses tomorrow.

We are as Hillary said, stronger together and we need to see this through...as one. I am a proud Democrat as well and always will be.