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[left-of-center2012]

This message was self-deleted by its author (left-of-center2012) on Mon Dec 11, 2017, 09:59 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Stuart G]

1. Very interesting article. Brings up questions..k and r.

[Demsrule86]

65. No it doesn't for me. I have no issue with responsible gun owners having a gun in the home...but

I object to concealed carry and think loopholes need to be closed...and those who sell guns illegally need to go to jail...we register cars and should do the same with guns.

[Thomas Hurt]

2. A legitimate exercise of your 2nd Amendment rights unlike.....

the two fools in Houston, who were in a car accident and pulled their guns and started shooting at each other on the street with others around.

[Luciferous]

21. We had an incident like that in Memphis a couple of weeks ago, but then

shootings are like a daily occurrence here.

[hunter]

3. Yeah, this is how I imagine the typical gun humper.

Disgusting.

[sarisataka]

6. In your mind

A typical gun jumper is an octogenarian?

What do you find digusting-old people or that the home owner lived?

[hunter]

8. There's a reason fools like this end up living alone.

[Calculating]

20. Looks like the fools were the thugs who broke in.

[hunter]

29. So we're celebrating paranoid old guys who live alone and sleep with loaded guns?

That's sad on so many levels.

If that's ever me, fuck it, I'm already dead.

The irony is that this guy's guns were likely the only things that "thugs" would consider valuable.

[ileus]

33. LOL....paranoid....

Just because he's old it doesn't mean his life isn't worth protecting....right?

[hunter]

36. Do you sleep with a loaded gun?

If so I'd suggest you find a living situation or a state of mind where that's unnecessary.

At this guy's age my grandpa, extremely competent with guns, who had outlived my grandma, wasn't sleeping alone in his retirement-assisted-living community, and my parents were questioning his choices of girlfriends as if he was a teenager. In that community the women vastly outnumbered the men.

I'd rather be like that than shoot another human being.

Sell the damned house, get rid of all the stuff, and party.

This story is sad.

[The_jackalope]

37. Now that you've explained it, I agree with you.

I think I'd much prefer your grandfather to this guy. Love trumps fear any day in my books.

(Ex GliderGuider)

[GulfCoast66]

40. Hah! Just because he is paranoid does not mean they were not after him!

And he was correct. Law abiding old veteran sleeping in his house and he hears a couple of thugs breaking into his home. Grabs his legal gun and walks thru his own home. To be attacked by intruders. And like he did in Korea he fought like hell and killed one of SOBs and drove off the other one. In his own home

And a Democrat here on Democratic Underground attacks him. Because he is old and owns guns.

And we wonder why we lose elections.

[hunter]

44. This is a sad story.

The U.S.A. is a sad place.

[Alea]

57. SMH, you would rather have the old man dead and the criminals alive?

Don't answer, it won't make since anyway.

Edit: Changed lol to smh because lol is not appropriate. Nothing laughable about it.

[cwydro]

56. Thank you. nt

[Tipperary]

68. Funny that you know absolutely nothing about this man but somehow you have all this info.

“His guns were likely the only things the thugs would consider valuable.” “There is a reason people like that live alone.”
Lots of assumptions there on your part. How do you know what valuables he has? You do not. You know nothing and are simply making things up to fit your narrative.

[workinclasszero]

78. Looks like he had good reason to be "paranoid" as you put it

The criminal he shot deserved what he got.

[Demsrule86]

67. Do you ever consider how fearful the shooter is? If had to live like that, I would move...sad way

to live.

[pintobean]

30. Yeah, he's a survivor.

[hunter]

32. Yeah, so am I.

I'd still rather sleep with mammals than a loaded gun.

[pintobean]

34. You an 84 year old combat vet?

[hunter]

38. No, I'm a survivor who never has, and never will shoot anyone, so help me God.

I know the mayhem I'm capable of and I'm a pacifist by necessity not by any natural inclination. I'm competent with firearms. It's my experience that once the guns come out everything is fubar.

There's no chance in hell I'll ever be this guy.

If by some misfortune I land in my own house alienated from friends and family there will still be big animal shelter rescue dogs sleeping on my bed and crazy roommates sleeping in the extra bedrooms, and complete strangers sleeping on the living room sofa, a few maybe who deserve to be shot, but not today.

[Ferrets are Cool]

51. +1

[Demsrule86]

66. There are horrible people out there who shouldn't own a gun and it has to stop...those who

think guns are important should cooperate with common sense gun registration and background checks...or something horrific will happen and you will lose big. Consider the most recent shooting in Las Vegas. Had the killer continued, thousands would be dead.

[sarisataka]

74. Yes I agree that there are some

people who should not guns. I support and promote background checks and legislation banning guns from DV offenders among other measures.

Still- what is "disgusting" about an elderly person defending himself from two attackers in his own home?

[Calculating]

19. Disgusting for an 80 year old to defend himself from home invaders???

Wtf man?

[Luciferous]

23. I hope they meant to be sarcastic.

[GulfCoast66]

41. No sarcasm at all. Every word meant as typed.

And they wonder why we lose elections

[Sailor65x1]

59. Naturally,

This homeowner should have simply been sacrificed on the alter of delicate sensibilities?

[MineralMan]

4. Moral: People who break into occupied houses take their chances.

It's a risky thing to do, it seems to me.

[Joe941]

5. He should be charged with murder.

[sarisataka]

7. Why?

Do you oppose self defense?

[IronLionZion]

9. In cases like this, the robber who lived is charged with his friend's murder

the homeowner was defending himself

[ProudLib72]

12. Charge with murder?

First degree? Second degree? I would believe manslaughter in the absence of intent, but murder?

[IronLionZion]

13. probably manslaughter

but the robber is charged, not the homeowner defending himself.

It happened recently when 2 guys high on drugs were breaking into a trailer and a woman protecting her child shot them both killing one. The one that lived got charged.

[ProudLib72]

16. When my house was burglarized

I said I was going to buy a gun. The cops told me I'd better be careful because, if someone just broke in and I shot them, I could be charged. I would need to be defending myself against imminent danger. I don't know if he was just trying to talk me out of buying a gun or if he was telling the truth.

It seems like there could be a whole slew of reasons to charge the criminal. For instance, it might appear more grievous an offense to break in on a woman protecting her child or an 80 year old man. If the burglars had weapons, that might be something that influences the decision. The law most likely differs state to state, too. I just don't know if there is an absolute on bringing charges against the surviving burglar. It would be nice if they caught the man and did sentence him to manslaughter.

[Lurks Often]

17. That would depend on your state law

and I would not have taken the police officer's statement as a fact without during my own research.

[GulfCoast66]

18. In many states

The very act of forcible entry into a occupied home is legally considered a mortal threat to the homeowner.

The burglar played a stupid game and lost. If his accomplice is found he should be charged with accessory to murder.

Old man did nothing wrong.

[IronLionZion]

22. Check with a lawyer in your state

it's easier to kill people in red states that have laws like castle doctrine and stand your ground.

The woman protecting her young child was in Oklahoma and they charged the burglar with his friend's death.

[ProudLib72]

27. And that's what is strange about what the cop told me

I live in CO, which has a stand your ground law. I think interpretation of that law might even vary county to county. I was living in what is supposed to be one of the most liberal cities in the state at the time. Had I been living in, say, CO Springs, the cop might have encouraged me to buy a gun.

[NutmegYankee]

50. Even Blue states have Castle doctrine. It dates back centuries to English Common Law.

For instance, Connecticut is one of the most anti-gun states, but has Castile doctrine for both home and business.

Normally the law is duty to retreat when faced with violent force, but nearly every state recognizes that that duty is no longer required in the home, as your home is the final refuge. If someone breaks in and is a threat, you can’t run any further and deadly force is authorized to protect yourself.

[pintobean]

24. 2nd degree in Mo. - Just happened here a few days ago.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/would-be-robber-charged-after-pizza-delivery-driver-shoots-accomplice/article_c51dc887-7b30-5447-ae29-a51890179eca.html

[Lee-Lee]

62. Felony Murder is the term

And it can come in degrees depending on the state.

Let’s say you and your friend decide to rob a bank. During the course of the robbery your friend shoots a bank guard and the guard dies, another guard shoots your friend and he dies.

Under Felony Murder statutes you can be charge for both deaths. And in fact if you have a getaway driver waiting in a car so can he.

[TheFrenchRazor]

45. you're kidding, right? nt

[infidel621]

60. WTF?

People broke into his house and he defended himself. You think he should be charged with murder? Should he have waited to see if his life was in any danger? Perhaps them shooting first? They were obviously up to no good and it's completely reasonable to assume it could become more than a simple burglary. They certainly weren't there to bake him cookies.

[USALiberal]

10. How about we post a story about every handgun murder also! n.t

[FarCenter]

11. Korean combat vet - he's likely killed on our behalf before.

[renate]

14. I'm very very very very very very anti-gun

But I have to admit that this is one of the minority of cases in which a gun actually was used to defend oneself against what would probably been injury or death. I can't blame the guy for shooting an intruder.

[Corgigal]

15. Seniors know they can be targets.

The neighbors are aware of you, and some of them may not be nice people.

While it scary that he slept with a gun, he probably isn't as quick as he use to be. So he felt, for him to sleep and be safe, to have a loaded gun close at hand. I can't fault the guy, it may have saved his life.

[Kaleva]

25. Like in the vast majority of cases of self defense, a 30 round magazine wasn't needed.

[stonecutter357]

26. Cool Story, Bro .

[ecstatic]

28. I couldn't live like that, and I wouldn't feel safe dealing with someone who did

A loaded gun under the pillow is just an accident waiting to happen. I assume he has no grandkids or family that visits?

ETA: I'm not against a gun for home defense. But a gun under the pillow isn't safe and would create a lot of anxiety, at least for me. A constant reminder that you might have to kill someone?

[left-of-center2012]

35. "I assume he has no grandkids"

Well, it said he has no children, so,
yeah,
you can assume he has no grandchildren.

[lame54]

31. One for the bucket list

[Beaverhausen]

39. Was the intruder armed?

Just wondering.

[Kaleva]

42. Why would it matter?

[GulfCoast66]

43. Well he weighed 300 pounds and went for an 86 year old man

In the old mans home. Guy got what he deserved. Hope his accompise is caught and put away for a long time.

[Beaverhausen]

46. I didn't know being fat was a capital crime

I also didn't know robbery was a capital crime.

So it sounds like neither of the robbers was armed.

[LisaL]

47. Doesn't matter if they were armed with a gun or not.

A man has a right to defend himself in his own home. Furthermore, there are other things someone could hurt or kill an elderly man with other than a gun.

[GulfCoast66]

52. Not all 300 pounders are fat.

Or at least not to the point that they can not fuck you up.

Breaking into an occupied home in this country is courting death.

And that is not a partisan issue. I find someone in my home at night they will get shot. And most Americans and members of the Democratic Party will agree.

Agreeing with reasonable restrictions on guns does not mean being against ownership of guns. Or using them to defend yourself and your family.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

53. Disparity of force

The law takes more into account then just whether a person is armed or not, or with what type of weapon they may have. A person's physical strength and size plays into it, as well as age and gender. Other things like if the attacker is known to have training, or if the one being attacked has a physical disability also factors in.

[Alea]

55. How would the homeowner know they were not armed?

How would he know they would not kill him. That "but they were not armed" argument don't fly for home intrusion. Old guy had every right to ventilate those criminals.

Robbery, and especially home invasion, may not be a capital crime, but it can sure get you a death sentence. Criminals know this and they accept the risk. We should respect their decision.

[infidel621]

61. Should he wait to find out?

Perhaps see if they shoot first? They are illegally in your house with malicious intent. Does he really need to wait and see exactly how malicious that intent is before he defends himself?

[mythology]

48. This instance doesn't change the math that owning a gun makes it far more likely

that you will die from it. 1 self-defense killing for every 78 suicides. Although his odds probably are a little better since he lives alone.

[LisaL]

49. He is also a veteran so knows how to use guns.

[Calculating]

54. Won't suicidal people just kill themselves some other way though?

IE pills, slit wrists, hanging, jumping off a building, jumping in front of a train, etc? Suicide is tragic, but really can't be blamed on guns.

[Lee-Lee]

63. They will. But it makes a great excuse to come after guns

The suicide rate in Japan, where guns are very restricted, shows that limiting access to they doesn’t change rates.

But trotting our suicide numbers makes for a great way to try and ban guns. If people actually cared about suicide they would advocate for better access to mental health care.

You can tell that the posters claims were not actually aimed at providing any actual meaningful data too by the way they manipulated data- comparing suicide deaths only to deaths that happen in self defense- when most cases of a gun used for self defense don’t end up with the attacker dead. But when they use that unrealistic metric of only counting self defense actions when the attacker is killed they can make actual self defense seem much rarer than it actually is. When you see that claim you can always tell you are dealing with someone dishonest on the subject.

[Kaleva]

72. How do you know that it doesn't change rates?

For an apt comparison, one would have to look at the suicide rate in Japan today and compare it to what the suicide rate was when the general population had relatively easy access to guns which was never the case. It's just speculation to say that limiting access doesn't change rates in Japan. One could also speculate that rates would increase if there was little to no limits on access.

[Kaleva]

70. The suicide rate for male gun owners is much higher then for male non-gun owners

"Our findings also add to the evidence that higher gun ownership is associated with higher overall suicide rates among male persons."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4984734/

[Lee-Lee]

64. Your user name is appropriate to your post

“1 self-defense killing for every 78 suicides” sounds like a really alarming statistic.

And it would be if it wasn’t a dishonest bullshit manipulation of the statistics to get to that alarming statistic.

Comparing only self-defense cases where the attacker gets killed is a totally dishonest way to frame the debate, because most defensive uses of guns don’t involve the attacker being killed. Most don’t even involve the firearm actually being fired because the presentation of the firearm in most cases is enough to change the dynamics of the situthay required self defense to be used.

But by framing the argument to only count instances of self defense where the attacker not only is shot but actually dies from their injuries you get to ignore the vast, vast majority of cases where guns are used defensively and pretend they don’t exist when citing your bogus statistics. Especially since most gunshot wounds are survived these days.

Mythology, indeed.

[Sailor65x1]

58. Play stupid games,

Win stupid prizes...

Good for this guy. Took out at least some of the trash and undoubtedly saved someone else, who might not have fared so well, from a future attack.

[Orrex]

69. That article doesn't tell us that the intruder was a family member

In fairness to the Post-Gazette, that detail wasn't immediately revealed at the time of the incident.

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/12/intruder_killed_by_84-year-old.html

The intruder was apparently a pretty shady character, and I don't fault Lutz for acting in self-defense.


Still, it's always said when a family member gets shot, however justifiably.

[LisaL]

71. I wonder if intruder knew his

uncle in law slept with a gun under his pillow. Not a smart idea to break into his house.

[Kaleva]

73. Where I live, we have people breaking into old relative's homes for pills.

[LanternWaste]

75. The aberrant feel-good gun story we're sold as a bill of goods every five or six months.

The aberrant feel-good gun story we're sold as a bill of goods every five or six months.

Yay! Guns! Happiness is... Bang, bang, shoot, shoot.

[left-of-center2012]

76. Much better than "Old man killed by burglars"

'nuff said

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. What if the gun accidentally discharges while he is sleeping ?

[ADX]

79. Good shoot...