Some advice for gun-control advocates: watch the atheists and the GLBTQ community.

[backscatter712]

Last edited Sat Jul 21, 2012, 09:19 PM - Edit history (1)

I'll admit I haven't paid very much attention to the gun control debates here that flared up after the Aurora shootings. I used to be more of a gun person than I am today. I sold my guns, mostly because I needed the money, but also as a personal renunciation of violence. But guns just don't interest me much anymore. Once in a while, I'll shoot clay pigeons with my brother in law, but that's about all I do.

But I did have a brain fart, so take it for what you will. The first step in a political campaign is taking an honest appraisal of the environment, and my appraisal is this, as amateur as it may be.

Gun control is very unpopular.

And that's where you (I mean gun control advocates) have something in common with atheists and the GLBTQ community. They're also unpopular, but at the same time, they've made significant progress.

I'm an atheist, and thus a member of a group so unpopular that we joke about eating babies, as that's about the only thing less popular, especially in the Bible Belt.

I saw one thread here titled "Give up on banning guns! It'll never happen in the U.S." But did the atheists, or gay people, or black people give up? They've been behind the political eight-ball, but they fought and make progress.

So recognize the challenge. How do you take a position that is deeply unpopular (OK, not everywhere, but in a lot of the country), and gain some ground?

Part of it is persistence. Keep going, recognizing that you're in for a slog. The right-wing and the NRA have planted a series of memes framing gun issues as a civil rights issue, using the Second Amendment to make the assertion that people have a basic civil right to own and possess deadly weapons. You're going to need to put forward an alternative frame. Politics always has morality lurking in its core, and for you, framing your morality is easy. Killing is wrong, these deadly weapons are being used to kill children and innocent people every day, and some common-sense rules need to be implemented to decrease the potential for shootings.

Another part is desensitization. Gun control advocates have been very effectively demonized as usurpers of liberty (complete with black- helicopter conspiracy theories) , and that sucks the oxygen out of the debate before you can even get your first word out of your mouth. You will need to desensitize the public to the idea that you have your ideas, that you will talk about them openly, and they can't shut you up.

How do you do this? Be an asshole!

I'll come clean and say that as an atheist DUer, I've deliberately been a real asshole. Madalyn Murray O'Hair and Christopher Hitchens have also been known to be very abrasive. Religious people have planted the norm in our culture that we don't criticize religion, that we don't ask questions and we dare not express doubt or contradict. I break that norm with gusto. I openly ridicule every religion from Christianity to Mormonism to Judaism to Islam. If I was in Saudi Arabia, they'd chop my head off!

I do this to challenge those norms and to weaken them. I fully expect people to get upset with me, and expect backlash. So much the better - it draws attention, gets more people thinking, and plants seeds. Sure, I get flamed, get posts hidden, get the riot act from administration and juries. I'm a big boy, and I can take it. And over a longer period of time, I see the resistance diminish.

So I say be an asshole, and desensitize your audience to the idea of repealing the Second Amendment, or interpreting it in a way that opens the door to firearms licensing & firepower restrictions. They'll scream about you taking their rights away and call you tyrants. Just smile and put on your best trollface. Before you can get them to agree, first get them used to the idea that you have the right to say it out loud.

That's my brainfart. I hope it's not too far off base.

[JeepJK556]

1. I'm a gun owner.

And a supporter of gay rights.

And an athiest.

And a master asshole!

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. And a PPR'd troll who lasted less than 24 hours

You must be a goddamn genius.

[frazzled]

2. Step One: Come out of the closet

Once they realize how numerous we are—and that we are not afraid to come out in public (yes, flamboyantly if necessary)—our position is strengthened. That power translates into economic and political power.

[bluestateguy]

3. I know some gay people who are strong gun rights supporters

To them, it is a matter of personal protection and self-defense from violent redneck assholes who would attack them.

One gay man I know who lives in a red county in a red state tells me that he frankly does not trust the redneck, good ole' boy sheriff's department where he lives to protect him from anti-gay violence, so yes, he owns a gun and carries a gun to protect himself.

[Merlot]

25. So what? Gun control does not mean taking away his gun

It means he's licensed to carry it, he had a 2 week waiting period before legally purchasing it. He's not a felon or on parole. It's a gun, not an assault weapon, not a machine gun or rocket launcher.

[bluestateguy]

27. So somebody threatens my life and I have to wait a 2 week waiting period to proetct myself?

And who is going to define what constitutes an "assault weapon"? The ignoramuses at the Brady Bunch campaign?

[Merlot]

29. I'm pretty confident that you already have a gun, so the 2 week waiting period is moot

Some people, even if their lives are threatened, won't go out and buy a gun. Those that want a gun won't be waiting, they will already have it.

The two week waiting period weeds out those that are mentally unstable, and those who want to commit a crime of passion. People who plan ahead and have a gun for protection aren't affected by a 2 week waiting period.

The assault weapon ban that expired already defines what the assault weapons are.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. I teach firearms classes on the weekend targeted towards women and GLBTQ people

They are the most frequent targets of violence and often the least able to defend themselves.

[Merlot]

30. And no one is denying them the right to have their guns. This is a straw man argument.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. Some here certainly are

Calls for banning handguns and even all civilian weapons have been posted since the news of this even spread.

[Bluenorthwest]

5. One is an atheist or a gun control advocate by choice. People are born gay. Big difference.

Not really all that keen on straight folks pushing the 'being gay is like a choice I made' crap. Probably not your intention, but why invoke gay rights at all, after you wave that flag you use nothing but your own atheist experiences to explain what you mean. Not a shred of your advice is based on 'what gay people did'. Of course, atheists have 100% civil rights, so as a group they are denied nothing at all for being atheists and that makes one huge difference between a person's sexual orientation and their beliefs on religion or guns.

[MattBaggins]

13. I was born an atheist as were you

Seven states ban atheists from holding office.

[Curmudgeoness]

15. That is not at all what I thought the OP was saying.

The point that I got from this post is that there are things that appear to be unpopular---such as atheism and gay rights and gun control. The OP is saying that to get movement toward gun control means that people who agree with that should make noise and be heard and make people listen---just as the gay or atheist groups are doing. To get traction, people have to realize that there is a lot of others who are with them on gun control....or gay rights or freedom to not believe in religion.

[Merlot]

26. How do you know someone isn't born an atheist?

Belief systems are not choice. While beliefs can change when exposed to new ideas, the beliefs are a core part of a person. They are not a decision. I could not "decide" to become a muslim, jew, buddhist, christian, or any other religion. I would have to feel compelled to it, and feel deeply that it was a truth that reflected my innermost beliefs.

[Warpy]

6. Absolutely

and it's gun control, not gun banning. The latter won't work, there are just too many of them out there. Prohibition never works, there's always a black market.

What would have been helpful would have been if TSA earned their lavish grants by tracking purchases of things like riot gear and huge amounts of ammo by individuals. A visit by a couple of TSA or ATF agents to inquire just what the hell this jerk was going to do with this gear might have been enough to scare him off or scale his murderous plans down a bit. Or alert them to the fact that he was completely off the rails and needed the stuff confiscated while he was on a three day psych hold.

Part of the problem with gun control is that the gunloons are as willing to lie about everything as the antiabortion nuts are. The more they scream lies, the more they drown out everybody else. Part of desensitizing the public has to be in pointing out who is lying and what the lies are.

But yes, we have to speak up.

[Mojorabbit]

8. I get really tired of anyone who is pro second amendment being called a gun lover or loon etc

Around 40% of Dems own firearms. This language is pretty insulting.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11727368

[Skittles]

10. do you not understand

the difference between a gun owner and a gun nut?

[Mojorabbit]

11. Yes I do

but from the posts on this board it seems many do not.

[Skittles]

12. if anyone doesn't understand

I would say it is the NRA

[Mojorabbit]

23. I don't follow the NRA

and don't care what they have to say. I am talking about this board and about our party.

[Warpy]

14. See? That's a lie right there.

Face it, some gun owners are around the bend about their firearms and these are the people who lie about gun control being the same as gun prohibition.

These are the ones we have to speak up around.

[Mojorabbit]

22. Sure there are and they are mostly teabagger types I would guess

But on this board if it follows the national average, forty percent own firearms and I don/t think most are lunatics. I think the insults are over the top but that is just me.

and on edit
Here is an example from another thread
"All those law abiding, responsible gun owners out there scare the hell out of me. Law abiding and responsible until one day they aren't. You gun nuts are just that -nuts."

[Zoeisright]

16. I get really tired of anyone who doesn't understand the actual intent of the second amendment.

It wasn't a citizenry armed to the teeth with handguns and assault rifles. As I've said many times before, you can have as many muskets as you want. It fucking stops there.

[derby378]

19. Says who? You?

Lewis and Clark. Check it out.

[Tejas]

28. Advocating intimidation of an innocent citizen by .gov?

"A visit by a couple of TSA or ATF agents to inquire just what the hell this jerk was going to do with this gear"




If that person tells your beloved TSA and ATF to kiss a wild bear's ass, what next, GITMO?

[GarroHorus]

7. Eight years of Bush turned me from a gun control advocate to a staunch support of gun ownership.

I'll never go back.

[derby378]

20. ...

[soccer1]

9. Well said! Not at all "off base."

Sometimes "abrasiveness" is rude and crude and sometimes it's just stating what you believe to be true, again and again and again.
If that's being an a...hole, then so be it.
But, I also thinks it's important, when considering hot issues, to really "listen" to the opposing point of view.Listening and paying attention is informative and based on that information an intelligent and rational strategy to bring about change can be developed.
A chess game. It takes time to develop the strategies that have the best chance of moving an issue in a more positive direction.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Excellent rejoinder to some of the stupidity about "Giving Up" that's been all the rage today

Among a triumphalist set.

Yes, it takes time. Yes, gun control advocates are up against an entrenched power and lobby. Yes, they've lost the argument nationally, and need to regroup. But as you point out, many political causes have to start and start again from a vulnerable position.

The status quo is silliness. The triumphalist rhetoric of the individualist-militia advocates is not a solution, and never even pretends to be. Those two things are unsustainable. Indeed, they likely know it, which is why they try to convince everybody that nothing can be done, and period. Their position is not socially sustainable, and is really not even more than a generation old. They're like the Wall Streeters who imaginatively project their own desperate form of social organization back throughout history - this 30 or 40 year old thing has lasted forever! It's foolishness, and it has no future.

So start and start again.

[lanlady]

21. your brainfarts are way better than most people's developed ideas!

I think I'm in love with you, backscatter7112

[2ndAmForComputers]

24. This made my day.

Thank you SO MUCH for coalescing and putting in writing something that had only a vague form in my mind.

Signed,
Fellow Proud Asshole

I'll come clean and say that as an atheist DUer, I've deliberately been a real asshole. Madalyn Murray O'Hair and Christopher Hitchens have also been known to be very abrasive. Religious people have planted the norm in our culture that we don't criticize religion, that we don't ask questions and we dare not express doubt or contradict. I break that norm with gusto. I openly ridicule every religion from Christianity to Mormonism to Judaism to Islam. If I was in Saudi Arabia, they'd chop my head off!

I do this to challenge those norms and to weaken them. I fully expect people to get upset with me, and expect backlash. So much the better - it draws attention, gets more people thinking, and plants seeds. Sure, I get flamed, get posts hidden, get the riot act from administration and juries. I'm a big boy, and I can take it. And over a longer period of time, I see the resistance diminish.