To all the young people who voted 3rd party or sat out the GE...

[louis c]

Last edited Sun Dec 3, 2017, 11:20 AM - Edit history (2)

...here are your consequences. You see, I worked my ass off for Hillary and ran into dozens of young voters who said "what's the difference?" They stayed home, blanked the election, wrote in Sanders or voted for the creep, Jill Stein.

This tax plan is bad, but I'm 65 years old. I have no student loans, I have my Social Security and union retirement plan, as well as a hefty 401k.

But I would surely sacrifice any marginal personal gain for America's future. Things were fine with me as they were. In fact, I would pay more taxes for universal health care and free college tuition (I don't need it for myself and I have no children). We now have a tax plan that taxes scholarship's as income and prevents student loan interest to be deducted.

The people who are getting fucked didn't see the difference in 2016.

They'll see the difference now. I don't mind fighting the assholes who are trying to fuck you, but I am getting sick and tired of trying to battle for other people who work against their own best interest.

At some point, people like me are off the stage, and you're on your own. You better figure out.

[Willie Pep]

1. I hate the "blame Baby Boomer" stuff you see whenever the Republicans do something bad.

Or saying that everything will be fine when the "olds" are all dead. Yeah Trump's supporters were disproportionately older but he had younger supporters too and more importantly plenty of younger people fell for the "both sides are the same" nonsense and sat out the election or voted for Stein or Johnson.

The most distressing thing that I see with younger Americans is this anti-politics culture where every politician that doesn't agree with you 100 percent is a corrupt "shill." I've been called a shill because I defended the Democrats as imperfect but way better than the only possible alternative in our two-party system.

[Muneravenmn]

42. I also Hate Blaming a Generation

This mess belongs to all generations. Plenty of Millennials are racist, sexist, trolling creeps.

However, as a cusp Boomer-Gen X person, I do feel we own some of this mess. We bought into all the lies about American exceptionalism and Capitalism as a great system. We embraced Wall Street and didn’t try to stop the corporate take-over of the country. And we kind of created Donald Trump. Our uncritical embrace of entertainment led to reality TV and made the guy a celebrity.

Honestly, if Boomers would have turned off their TVs and stopped buying stuff for a minute, America might be a lot different. Just saying.

[sadiegirl]

52. You can't even get them to stop buying stuff for one Christmas season. They're punched!

And they refuse to accept responsibility or accountability but this last election is entirely on the backs of the millennials who refused to even study the history or learn about the parties over the past 30 years. They just wanted to hear whatever was being said against HRC and the seasoned Dems.

[susanna]

108. Could you please explain the term "punched" in your subject line?

I am not sure what it means in this context, to be honest. I'd appreciate some guidance. Thanks!

[Susan Calvin]

77. I blame anyone

Who voted for other than Hillary or sat it out in the GE.

(On edit - or who said an unjustified word against her or the party after the primary. And some justified ones.)

I don't like her nor the current Dem leadership.

But we live in a binary system. Reality must be faced, or else....

[chwaliszewski]

107. The ones who sat out...

may have voted for Trump or someone else. It is each registered voter's prerogative to do what they wish. Instead of blaming others for the current debacle, let's spend our time trying to figure out how to attract their interest and their votes. That's more important than finger pointing or the blame game.

[PDittie]

115. +1

[Susan Calvin]

128. Oh, I agree about going forward.

I seldom dwell on the past, politically, other than to try to figure out what to do differently in the future.

The thought expressed above just came into my head in response to the conversation, not as something I'm obsessed with.

[snowy owl]

152. +1

[louis c]

154. This is not about blame, this is about intellgence

If anyone of any age voted Trump, sat out, wrote in, blanked or stayed home in the General Election of 2016 and can't admit that that was a mistake, I don't want to be in an alliance with them.

I don't need to convince anyone of anything. If anyone is that stupid, I don't trust them. When they can admit that mistake, we'll be together in the fight ahead.

[vkkv]

156. A quarrelsome man has no good neighbours -Benjamin Franklin

[louis c]

158. I don't want morons for neighbors

I know what a party's political primary means. Work your heart out for your candidate, take a day of two off to either celebrate a victory or reflect on a loss, then come together for the common good, because we know what we stand for is far better for all of us, than the alliterative.

I refuse to be part of a party that your candidate wins, you can count on my time, effort and money, but when my candidate wins, you tell me to go fuck myself.

We better get with the program of what politics really is. There's no participation trophies in this business.

if we continue to try to placate and coddle those who can't even see that not voting Clinton on November 8, 2016 has led to the greatest political disaster in 45 years, I believe that those individuals are a lost cause, politically speaking.

By the way, I get along very well with all my neighbors. You see, I'm from Massachusetts, and a vast majority of us know how to vote, that's why we're a reliably Blue State with strong progressive leadership in Washington and our legislature.

My Senators are Ed Markey and Elizabeth Warren. My Congresswoman is Katherine Clark, who is part of entirely Blue, 9 member congressional delegation. I live in a state that voted 51% to 49% for Hillary in the primary, and 60% to 33% for her in the election. When people in other states, who use a different technique than I'm accustomed to, can surpass those results in all the categories that I have described, I'll be willing to listen.

[chwaliszewski]

162. You're either for us or against us. Got it.

I'm thinking that Trump voters believe the same thing about us. That's why there's two different sides. Which one is the right one? The one YOU believe is right. Basically, you're saying that you're done with anyone who doesn't think like you. I think we should try to figure out how to bring more people under our tent and not be dismissive of them.

[louis c]

163. Anyone who today, doesn't get it on their own, never will

I think the polls showing huge negative numbers for Trump as well as the Virginia, Oklahoma, and other recent elections, show me that people are getting it on their own.

But, if I have to try to convince anybody, at this point, that they made a mistake by voting Trump, or not voting in the last election, it's a waste of time.

How would you convince Max Naumann if he still held to his beliefs today, after knowing what he knows now, for his support in 1933?

Sometime, people are just a lost cause, politically.

Link;
In 1934 the group made the following statement:

<snip>"We have always held the well-being of the German people and the fatherland, to which we feel inextricably linked, above our own well-being. Thus we greeted the results of January, 1933, even though it has brought hardship for us personally."

A possible reason why some German Jews supported Hitler may have been that they thought that his antisemitism only was for the purpose of "stirring up the masses".

The seemingly ironic fact that a Jewish association advocated loyalty to the Nazi programme gave rise to a contemporary joke about Naumann and his followers ending their meeting by giving the Nazi salute and shouting "Down With Us!".<snip>

[Mariana]

89. The majority of Baby Boomer aged voters voted for Trump.

That's just a fact. Most of them would do it again, enthusiastically, if given the chance.

Young people have been getting royally fucked over by this country since long before the 2016 election. It really isn't unreasonable for many of them to conclude that neither party gives a shit about them.

[Kahuna7]

106. They can't change things if they don't vote. They allowed

the gop to gain the statehouses that makes it nearly impossible to undue the damage they are doing. Then they blame the Dems for not standing up for them. Gimme a break.

[Mariana]

134. They allowed?

Really? The GOP had this stranglehold in most of the statehouses well before the young voters of today were old enough to vote. Dubya and his wrecking crew Congress were elected 17 years ago. Should they vote in higher numbers? Sure. But it is utterly unfair to lay the blame for the state of the country on the young people. Older people put Republicans in charge of the statehouses. Older people voted for Trump and put him in office. Go denigrate them for awhile, why don't you?

[Kahuna7]

147. Spare me the drama. Young Democrats are notorious for sitting out..

off year elections. FACT.

[MFM008]

2. Like Susan Sarandon says

No difference between parties. ..
HRC is so much worse.....
We would be at war......
Down with establishment democrats.....
We need maggot in office to make things better
For Democrats next time..........
I hate HRC.........
I won't vote for THAT woman.........
She's " corrupt"......
I won't vote for any woman.........
Fuck all of you.
Twice.

[Pepsidog]

25. Sarandon ruined the show Ray Donavan for me. Wish she would go away

Last edited Sat Dec 2, 2017, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

[DavidDvorkin]

41. Fortunately, she wasn't in too many scenes

The people behind the show made a big noise about her being in it, but then they didn't use her very much. I wonder if they realized that they had made a mistake and misjudged the reaction of their audience.

[Pepsidog]

83. I didnt know that there was discussion over her appearance in the show.

Call me quick to judge, but Fallon, Sarandon and Steve Harvey, I can’t forgive or forget their normalization of the Trumpanzee.

[DavidDvorkin]

90. I've never liked her as an actress

I thought her just adequate and no more than that.

[louis c]

49. I think you mean Ray Donovan

I hate Susan Sarandon. But if you could stand Jon Voight as Ray's father, Susan should have been a breeze.

I don't go out of my way to watch a film or story by politically reprehensible actors, but I don't stop watching a series because one or two of them are assholes.

[Pepsidog]

82. Yes Ray Donavan. Spell check pain in the ....

[crazycatlady]

65. I doubt young people listened to Susan Sarandon when it comes to voting

Now if Taylor Swift was (publicly) political that would be a different story.

[vi5]

3. I'm curious if I'm ever going to see a thread/post on here...

..chastising and calling out the 30% of hispanic voters who actively voted for racist Trump who scapegoated them all campaign and made no secret of how deportation happy he was going to be. Perhaps someone can make a post specifically asking that 30% if they are happy with their decision and sarcastically thank them for what has happened?

Or the 30% of Jewish voters who actively voted for anti-semite Trump who surrounded himself with and aligned himself with literal nazis.

Or the 40% of women who actively voted for misogynist, pussy grabbing, sexist, adulterer Trump.

But no, clearly let's focus on the scary 1% of people who voted for Stein (and that's not even getting into the fact that Gary Johnson's 3X that amount of voters probably came from Republicans not voting for Trump).

[ismnotwasm]

6. You mean Republicans?

Last edited Sat Dec 2, 2017, 01:06 PM - Edit history (1)

We say fuck you to THEM every day.

[vi5]

26. But my point is....

..That those third party/Stein voters are not Democrats and will never vote for the Democratic candidate either. So why spend so much time on here bitching about them?

Those groups I mentioned, Republican or not are going to be far more directly impacted by these wretched Trump policies. So why do people on here avoid saying "Are you happy now?!?!?! Was this what you wanted?!?!?!" to those very large, very much directly impacted groups when those same posters have no problem making those same posts for people who probably are very happy now and that this is exactly what they wanted, because their lives being mostly white and not poor are less directly impacted.

[ismnotwasm]

27. Because they are supposed to be the good guys

In fact, they think they ARE the good guys. And because they haven’t changed. They have no plans for “unity”. They will continue to be spoilers, and need their teeth pulled. Which actually is happening, although they don’t realize it, nor do they realize why.

Truth to tell however, I agree to the point that The people I find more interesting and far more reachable are the non-voters. Those are the ones worth courting, the blandly apolitical who don’t “get” politics, and aren’t politically interested, but hate bigotry, and have some small understanding of what the method used to push the tax bill through means for America, if not what’s in it. That is like, half of America.

[xmas74]

140. We've had non-voters show up

At county Democrats meetings this year. Several actually paid club dues and a few gladly worked voter registration booths.

Some are starting to get it. One apologized for not voting while paying his membership. No one asked him to.

[louis c]

165. Those are the people I want to reach

People who get it on their own and want to make amends for their mistake.

if I have to show them, today, I figure they are a lost cause.

[xmas74]

168. They are out there.

The common denominator with every one that has attended a meeting this year? They all have daughters. That's been the link for those who didn't vote but suddenly became political. Every one, both mothers and fathers, have mentioned feeling afraid for the future for their children, especially their daughters.

[aikoaiko]

142. Not just Republicans, but indies who lean right, indies who lean left but voted for Trump in 2016

[HughBeaumont]

8. +1,000.

Or, just generally, the 62 million idiots who thought this whiskey-throttle plane crash was a great idea in the first place.

[brush]

12. I'll never understand the 30% of the Hispanice vote for trump...very puzzling to me, as for the...

30% Jewish vote I wasn't aware of that high a percentage for trump. WTF?

What upsets me even more is that a majority of white women voted for trump the p_ssy grabber. G-a-a-a-a-a-h!

Maybe this tax bill passage and the #me_too movement will remind them of what moralless cheats, crooks and misogynists the repugs they voted for.

All of them need a stiff jolt the get their head our of their asses.

[whathehell]

29. or the 13% of Black men who voted for Trump?

Yes, the "majority" of white women voted for Trump, but NOT, the majority of college educated White Women- They voted Hillary.

The majority of White college educated Men, however voted for Trump..

Misogyny: : Does it outweigh party loyalty and/ or self interest? I don't know.

[brush]

37. You probably need to dissect that. If 13% of black men voted for trump, that means 87%...

voted for Hillary, which is still a way higher percentage than any other demographic segment except black women.

And have you no knowledge that black men were the prime target of repug vote suppression?

Without all of the suppressed votes that 87% (still very high) would've been higher.

Come on, are we now putting down a segment that votes at 87% for Democrats?

[whathehell]

38. No, actually, it doesn't.

quite a few -- like other Americans -- just stayed home and didn't bother to vote at all.

[brush]

39. We're talking about people who voted, right?

[whathehell]

50. Well, yes, that's true..

There's no question that most minority voters did vote for Hillary. and while I'm glad that at least most college educated white women voted for her, I'm as surprised and disappointed as anyone that the overall majority went for Trump.

[brush]

87. Yeah, that was a disappointment. I have to think there's a lot of voter remorse in that...

demographic segment.

[whathehell]

92. Thr election was EXTREMELY odd...Many things just don't

seem to add up, and given what's coming out about Russian interference, I'm not at all sure if the ballot boxes themselves weren't hacked.
You may have read the latest "expose" from Mueller's investigation -- an email from Trump's campaign-- in which a staffer talks about Russia's anticipated unhappiness with Trump after "they threw the election to him". They actually use those words. Given all this, I think think that the jury is still out on what really happened.

[brush]

95. I didn't see that report but I sure hope Muellar gets to the bottom of the whole thing.

[whathehell]

99. Yes, absolutely

Btw, the report is on Latest Breaking news here, if you want to read it, and it begins:

"Newly released email could be the smoking gun".

[brush]

100. Thank you. I'll look for it.

[whathehell]

113. No problem. n/t.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

131. Well, now African American voters know the answer to Trump's question

I imagine it's not the one they were hoping for.

Notice there's not one black face in the crowd behind him.

[brush]

139. We never fell for trump's BS.

[JI7]

56. Majority of minorities dont defend those that voted trump. The way white people defend the majority

Of whites that voted trump

[whathehell]

57. I'm not sure what your first sentence is trying to say..

Could you say it a little more clearly?

[JI7]

59. Why the need to defend white trump supporters ? Black people don't defend Cornel West

[whathehell]

60. Where do I "defend white Trump supporters"?

[JI7]

61. Lol

[whathehell]

63. Lol...You can't show it..

'cause I haven't done it -- Your lame little "lol" response doesn't cut it.

[JI7]

64. Your constant complaints and needing to mention college educated white women

And other excuses are proof.

Non educated black women voted for Clinton. In fact more non college black women voted for Clinton than college educated white women.

[whathehell]

68. Lol...Um, no

not unless they've changed the definition of proof",. Once again, you're simply making false ststements. Now you're adding false accusations about me, and, like the statements, you can't back them up..

First of all where are my "constant complaints"?

After clearing that up, you might try explaining what's wrong with pointing out a.fact.

Btw, even if you could do these things, it still wouldn't prove I "support" white Trump voters, which I don't.

[JI7]

70. Fact is majority of non college ed black women voted Clinton

As did all minorities

[whathehell]

71. I know that...I have never never denied it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Those are Republicans, and to hell with them.

The problem the OP is addressing is the people who don't vote because they think elections don't matter or that both parties are the same, as well as the dumbasses who vote for crackpot third-party candidates like Stein.

[vi5]

24. And those others are independents...

..the point is that neither is going to vote for the Dem. No matter what. So either spread the blame around equally or just shut the fuck up about it because 1) None of those people would vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what, and 2) they were all to some degree voting against their self interest. I would argue as I did in another response, that those 3 groups I listed were more directly and tangibly impacted by Trump's policies than the Stein/third party voters who are much more likely to be white and middle class.

So if we are going to spend our precious time on here doling out "Are you happy now?!?!?!" threads and "I told you so!!!" threads, let's at least be intellectually honest about it.

[Iggo]

18. So it's the Women and the Mexicans and the Jews.

You hit a triple!

[vi5]

23. No, my point is....

...that it seems that the theory behind these daily threads whining about Susan Sarandon, and Stein voters, etc. are based on people voting against their own self interests. Or is there another reason that I'm missing?

So if the order of the day is to spend every day on here blaming the 2016 election on people voting against their self interest, why do we just limit it to Stein voters? By the same theory that those other groups I'm listing are just "Republicans who would never vote for a Democrat anyway" why is it assumed that those Stein voters or independents would ever vote for a Democrat anyway? Especially when those other groups are likely much more directly impacted by Trump's reprehensible actions than the most likely white, middle class Stein voters?

The point is less that we should start bitching about those other groups who didn't vote for the Dem in 2016 in large numbers than it is to just stop bitching about this minute group of people who didn't vote for the Dem in 2016 in small miniscule numbers? Or if you're going to do that, then spread the blame around a little more and more specifically the numbers that likely had a much more tangible impact on the election.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

28. There's PLENTY of blame to go around... ok great, but maybe it's time we moved the fuck on!

Last edited Sat Dec 2, 2017, 02:16 PM - Edit history (1)

The 2018 elections will be upon us before we know it. Time to unite and mobilize!!

[MikeydaDog]

33. I would love to move along also. But, it seems this group is ramping up to do the same in 2020.

[vsrazdem]

85. I agree.

Playing the blame game is doing nothing but dividing us and helping the opposition. It is not helpful at all.

[vi5]

125. And that is my point!

It's not only that certain factions of people on DU do not want to move on, it's that they insist on dwelling in this minute corner of the electorate that is much less significant than almost any other group out there. It's pointless.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

132. Point well taken... meanwhile, the most onerous tax bill in history is

about to be signed by the Pussy-Grabber-in-Chief... time to mobilize!!! Enough of the navel-gazing!!!

[JI7]

54. Because Susan Sarandon gets public attention to spew her crap even now

Why shouldn't people attack her just as we attack lou dobbs, hannity , and others whose goal is to help republicans win.

[JI7]

58. No. It's based on calling out the liars who wanted to help trump win

And the majority of minorities that did not support trump don't make excuses for those that did.

[Iggo]

143. I'm just sick of people defending a majority of the majority...

...by attacking a minority of the minority.

If that's not what you're doing, then fine. But that's what it smelled like.

[vi5]

157. Not sure what that means....

...but I'm saying ultimately that we need to stop the 2016 bullshit and refighting. If someone has a productive, well-reasoned way that they think can get to some or any of of these people we're not getting to, or that we couldn't convince in 2016 then great. That serves a purpose. But the daily stream of ridiculous "I hope Susan Sarandon is happy!!!" or "Bernie Bros are responsible for TRUMP!!!!!" posts and threads serve zero purpose other than stoking the fires that burned us in 2016.

My point was that if people are doing that, then spread the blame around to every group that screwed the pooch in 2016, including those I mentioned. But that ultimately we should not be wasting time doing any of it, we should be spending our time moving forward and convincing every person that we are in a shit state that needs to be fixed.

[progressoid]

43. +1

[JI7]

53. Black people DO go after Cornel West Nina Turner. And huge difference is the majority of those group

That DID vote democratic don't defend those who didn't.

[IronLionZion]

62. One of the biggest lies Trump's camp told minorities was only undocumented immigrants would get it

Nobody cares about my documents. Racists don't want to acknowledge that minorities can be born in America (see Trump's idiocy around Obama's birth certificate). They barely acknowledge that white people can be born in Europe (Melania, Gorka, etc). They have disgustingly associated the GOP with the party of freedom and prosperity and the American way. They tell us that if we vote Republican, we will be viewed as true Americans and be spared the racism and discrimination those unAmerican "other people" will endure.

They also spread the tired lie that liberals/Dems are the real racists who want to keep minorities poor to get votes while the GOP will enable all of us to be prosperous and successfully reward our hard work.

And then they also appeal to the ones who are open to the macho ideas of patriarchy and tradition and whatever else benefits a few. There are many socially conservative minorities, and economic conservative minorities who care about different issues besides immigration and racial discrimination.

A latino coworker of mine jumped on the Trump train in a swing state not because he likes the guy or his policies but because he is completely different from every other politician and represented radical change and sticking it to the establishment.

Many married conservative women could care less about equal opportunities/pay or birth control/choice or protection from sexual harassment or other issues that young single liberal women would care about.

Also, some minorities and women are bad people. There, I said it and meant it. Take no one's votes for granted.

[chwaliszewski]

109. OMG! Some common sense.

Thank you.

[PDittie]

116. +1

[Arazi]

122. A for effort. I'm glad some here are still trying. Thank you

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. I'm in your situation. I'll manage.

I might not even be around when the worst of it sets in. I just hope that the people who didn't think elections matter, or that both parties are the same, or that they're making some kind of statement or assuaging their conscience by voting for a crackpot like Jill Stein, get a clue someday...

[still_one]

5. Well said louis. The idiocy of the falsehood, "there is no difference between Democrats and

republicans", is going to come back and bite those who didn't vote, or voted third party.

and after this gets through the House, it won't be over:

"High-ranking Republicans are hinting that after their tax overhaul, the party intends to look at cutting spending on welfare, entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, and other parts of the social safety net."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/01/gop-eyes-post-tax-cut-changes-to-welfare-medicare-and-social-security/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.f16dd1454c1a

There are still things that can be done to lessen the impact on the most vulnerable in our society from this bill. The House still needs to take up the Senate version and reconcile it, so it would well be in those folks interest to contact their representative to express their displeasure with this bill.

This makes 2018 even more critical. It is the last chance they have to prevent the full impact of the bill from taking effect, which will be in 2019 as I understand it, where the corporate tax is cut from 35% to 20%.

This is an ongoing war that the republicans have been waging against the middle class and poor. Will those who didn't vote in 2016, wake up and do something before it is too late?

[lpbk2713]

7. I agree with what you say.

The GOP has been trying to dismantle the govt ever since FDRs New Deal.
Lately they seem to have been gaining ground.

[calimary]

45. THIS. This has been their objective for DECADES. This is what they mean by "free stuff."

That "free stuff" they disdain is HELP for others who need it. The poor. The homeless. The sick. The elderly. Children. Public schools. Environmental protection (how 'bout those children in and around Flilnt MI and the shitty tap water they have to drink).

Paul Ryan, as I've read, has been yearning to gut the New Deal. Do away with it. That's been his life's dream and his life's work, and why I understand he mandates that every one of his staffers read Ayn Rand. And, shockingly, he's purportedly a Catholic. So why does his heart's desire lie in 180-degree opposition to Jesus's teachings? You know, that stuff about "whatever you do to the least of these?" (Matthew 25; 35-45)

That's the whole deep dark idea behind this tax fraud plan. And yes, drive up the deficit WAY big so then you can come back and whine and yowl and crank up the ol' propaganda machine about these awful desperate deficits and we HAVE TO-HAVE TO-HAVE TO cut spending.

And where do you suppose they'll start cutting?

Hint: it WON'T involve taking anything from Corporate America or the already-have's and have-more's. It WON'T involve taking any of these extra lavish new - AND UNEARNED - comforts away from the already comfortable.

I'm a Catholic, too. All my life. The way I was taught, I can't get Matthew 25: 35-45 out of my mind. And I just have a visceral, built-in aversion to the whole idea of comforting the already-comfortable. Just can't get there. WTF do the already-comfortable need with still MORE comfort? And PARTICULARLY when so many others among us have little or no comfort at all? I just can't get there. Just can't make that fit. Can't get my arms, or my mind, or my heart around that.

[mdbl]

78. Lately?

They have been gaining ground for 35 years. Like a frog in water that comes to a slow boil.

[ancianita]

9. Every damn day I say this to centrists who want the left to appease toward some right wing "normal."

Last edited Sun Dec 3, 2017, 06:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Fuck that. All this "we're on our own" stuff they think will get them through, will end up having the same richie class hyper-organized predators coming after them.

[marybourg]

16. Wow, that's one powerful poster!

Maybe because I almost remember him; when he died he was the only President my mother had ever known. He and Eleanor were very much a part of her and my grandmother's everyday, working-class lives.

[ancianita]

22. It's why no Dems can put down the FDR wing as divisive, because it's really the old base -- not

Last edited Sun Dec 3, 2017, 06:56 AM - Edit history (1)

a "class war" base, not a "commie/marxist base," "alien" base or "extremist" base --

the old base of the Democratic Party is the base of practical help, big projects and visions, and politics as a calling, not a for-profit opportunity.

[warmfeet]

88. Thank you for saying this.

I'll be damned if I am going to sit idly by, being accused of being too far left for the Democratic Party. I am in the far left (which was once mainstream in the Democratic Party). I am of the Democratic Party. I voted for Hillary. End of story!

[TheRealistRealist]

10. I'm more angry at the 53% of white women that voted for Trump

Their logic: "He makes me feel safe." Well do you still feel safe with this monster?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

40. Seriously, what the fuck were they thinking?! Hard to believe!!

[ffr]

11. Makes me sick to my stomach having tuRd in the WH, f*cking us all at every turn.

When he's a criminal and his band of merry thieves (McConnell & Ryan & Co.) get to set the tone for making our lives miserable. I'm right there with you louis c. I'm getting f*cked too, but the people who cannot tell the difference between the two parties need some hard lessons in how to figure this stuff out.

Mueller cannot bring the KGOP crime family to justice fast enough.

[PatSeg]

14. Sadly, it wasn't just young people

There were older people too, who bought the anti-Hillary crap. They wrote in "Bernie" or voted for Stein. There is plenty of blame to go around. Younger voters tend to be short on experience and knowledge, but the older voters should have known better.

[louis c]

46. I agreee, but we older foks aren't getting fucked as much

This tax bill really, really fucks 20 to 35 year olds. Their scholarships are taxed, interest on their student loans are taxed.

Then, there will be cuts to Medicare and Social Security. But you can bet your bottom dollar that those cuts won't effect older Americans. It will be phased in, just as the age increase was 20 years ago. We'll be OK, but younger Americans will have a higher age to qualify and reduced benefits. However, they'll pay more during their pre-retirement life to pay benefit levels they won't get.

In addition, the national debt will continue to increase, not for services, but to cut taxes on the top 10% of wage earners, a group very few youngsters who are not already privileged, will achieve.

Bernie spoke to those issues and younger voters responded. They didn't get their man, so far too many (not all) took their ball and went home. They didn't vote for the candidate that would at least not have worsened their burden and live to fight another day. No, what too many did, was bite their noses off to spite their faces.

Well, welcome to the real world. How's it look?

[PatSeg]

81. With the direction we appear to be headed,

I can picture these younger people some day living in a Brave New World type dystopia. I remember being young and my knowledge and experience was very limited. Though I was basically idealistic, I really didn't understand how government works. Its not something you learn overnight and there are so many distractions at that age.

Sadly some lessons will be learned the hard way.

[louis c]

86. but I listened to people who knew more than I did

I was tutored by a former Mayor of my city who lost everything during the McCarthy era, red scare of the early 1950's. My Dad was an administrative assistant to the first Black US Senator in history (excluding reconstruction era), Ed Brooke.

I was writing speeches and emceeing political events at 22 years old. I read books on politics and history. I spoke to elected and appointed officials. I wrote for my college newspaper. I learned at a very early age that math was more important in politics than philosophy. In other words, if you're on the losing side, you're fucked, so don't be on the losing side.

I have won union elections and lost a close city wide election by 92 votes. You don't have to win every time, but you have to establish a voting base. On election night, only numbers count. If you can cause the other side to have fewer votes, that's as important as maxing out your own. I have seen someone throw in a third candidate just to split the vote in an election. I have seen negative campaigning to suppress the vote in elections (I was a victim once). Politics ain't beanbag. I have been on the winning side far more often than on the losing side, but that's the nature of this business. Political enemies one day can be allies the next, especially at the local level and especially within the same political party or labor union.

Splitting the vote of your opponent is a tried and true political tactic, and it only works on the naive'. I'm afraid our coalition has too many folks, of all ages, in that category.

[PatSeg]

93. I listened to people who knew

more than I did as well, but I didn't get terribly involved with politics like you did. The late sixties and early seventies were fascinating times, but after that I'm afraid I lost interest. I had children to raise and limited resources, so I was in survival mode.

It sounds like politics has been a big part of your life from a very early age. I became a political junkie after GW Bush "took" office. My outrage coupled with my need to be a witness to history has contributed to my political junkieness!

[Sienna86]

15. Stop the hate

These young people are not the problem. Let’s get a candidate that all good people can stand behind.

[louis c]

17. That's always the Democrat, whoever that nominee is

What if the Democratic nominee isn't on board with everything I like, should I vote against him or her?

don't you get it, the person with the most delegates wins the primary, and EVERY Democrat should vote for that nominee, or we get fucked.

This Tax Bill fucks the youngest members of society worse than any other group. Not older white woman, or Latinos, or Jews, or Italians, or any other demographic you can mention. Young people get fucked in this. My point is, maybe now they'll get the difference between the parties.

[LisaL]

44. Nobody is perfect.

If they are waiting for a perfect candidate, that's not going to happen.

[Mariana]

48. Really. They always seem for forget which age groups

had a majority vote for Trump - and who would gladly, enthusiastically do it again if given the chance. It wasn't the young people.

[Lil Missy]

110. We did have a candidate like that. It was Hillary Clinton. .

She won the primary. By a landslide. She actually did win the election. What it’s time for is the minority of the primaries that need to get behind
the candidate chosen by the majorityTo be the Party’s candidate.

[Iggo]

19. Divide and Conquer.

[Locrian]

76. divide and conquer indeed

You know I am so freaking sick of this. Boomers were the problem, millennials were the problem, Bernie was the problem, and ON and ON and ON.

We're whining and doing exactly what they want with all this infighting. Were dysfunctional and weak because we don't get the level of the game that is being played. The sophistication, the marketing, the deviousness of psychological warfare targeting not just the trump turnip morons but US.

We have a limited amount of energy and we're WASTING it with this stuff. The wealthy / elite are WINNING and they are spending massive amounts of energy to continue to win. Think tanks, messaging, psyops, disrupters, russians, etc. Figure out WHY the boomer, millenial, trump idiot, etc voted - and COUNTER IT!

We all have got to get our collective shit together and be smart about this. That means developing messaging, marketing, strategy ACROSS THE BOARD. That includes targeting the trump people and NOT WRITING THEM OFF. I want to scream when I hear people say they wont do anything - that unless xyz then people are "dead" to them. YOU'RE PLAYING INTO THEIR HANDS. For gods sake - people, count to 10 and engage your intellect and figure out a way to win, not just feel good about how damn superior xyz group is.

[ancianita]

111. Amen. First, unity in the WIN. Unity is not uniformity. We can sort the differences once we win.

[louis c]

159. you still don't get it

this is not blame. anyone, of any age group that voted for Trump, stayed home, voted third party, wrote in or blanked the Presidential General Election in 2016 and can't admit that that was a mistake, I don't want to talk to them.

If, after a year after Trump, the people I described would do the same thing today, I say fuck them, they're too stupid to help.

I'm in Massachusetts. We figured this shit out long ago. Every Democratic presidential candidate can count on us every General election. they don't even need to show up, and we'll still donate money, travel to purple states and phone bank into close contests. You can actually take us for granted.

[Arazi]

123. Yup eom

[Sunlei]

20. good to point out the student loan difference-so many are BURDENED with that lifelong debt.

Even President Obama paid off his last student loans while he was serving as president!

People are really screwed who have student loans and aren't wealthy enough to pay off that principle. Co-signers can lose their home if student doesn't pay, students can't buy a home/car if they aren't paying regularly.

Peonage, a whole class of educated people are indebted for life and can't even deduct interest they WILL pay for years to "lenders". Their parents, if CO-Signer- can't even sell their homes in regular way if their homes title is locked in with student loans.

[Justice]

21. Ditto. I will manage.

[heaven05]

30. +++

so true and my exact sentiments about 66+million of 'deplorables'.

[Blue_true]

31. I am similar to you.

Detached from my heavily government based local economy. So if it blows up, I don't suffer. Have no kids, student loans, no need to support schools in anyway.

But I DO support local government and government jobs, schools and libraries because I don't live in a damned bubble and I realize that and vote accordingly.

Bernie or Busters and No Difference Millenias are damned clueless fools.

[DrDan]

32. and this is just the start . . . debt and budget deficits will soar . . . entitlements will be the

targets

Corporations and the wealthy will get their cuts. The impact will be felt for years.

[mdbl]

80. Repugs treat the federal government like a credit card they never intend to pay back

which worries me because my savings are in bond funds. if the feds can't cover it, I lose.

[zentrum]

34. Well, the young people I

.....know blame older people as a group, the adult generation, for leaving the world is such bad shape.

The troubles started way before Trump and though he will rush us to the end of Democracy and the planet, the causes are way bigger than him. The young I know are pretty much mad at everyone except young activists of all kinds/causes.

[oasis]

35. They own what comes, along with the MAGgots. They're in partnership.

x 60 + Jill Stein dupes and non voting butt hurt idiots.

[LittleGirl]

36. My 32 yr old niece that didn't vote is now paying attention

She is pissed off that that asshole is representing us and making a mockery of the US to the world. She's really angry that she didn't vote. She knows now and I am grateful for her coming to her senses.

And I'm 58, so my only hope is that Medicare and SS are still around in 7 years when I need it most. Right now, I can't find a job, can't even get an interview because as much as I've tried to find work, I haven't been working for 10 yrs (many moves in the meantime too). I'm furious about last nights vote. I'm furious that the GOP is destroying our country from within.

He's not my President but actually this Congress if fucking us just as bad as that embarrassment in the WH.

[moriah]

47. From Mister Rogers Neighborhood's "Conflict" episode series.

"Rules are very, very important. Not just for games but for all things. Even big things like countries. Countries have to have rules to protect people, too. And someday you'll be helping to make the rules for your country. I trust that you'll make the best kind you know how."

Fred Rogers, 11/10/83

He was such an optimist....

[betsuni]

51. K&R

[Ferrets are Cool]

55. Very well said. And sadly, all too true.

[benld74]

66. Those whp didnt see the difference are more than the young one

Plenty of others failed to vote as well.
I am 61 with a sophomore in high school and another just coming out of college

I feel for them

I'm angry
I tried my best as well, but to no avail

I hope to God something or someone awakens this country
Current news is NOT doing it
Tax vote is NOT doing it

What will

[louis c]

74. but it's the 18 to 35 YO that are really on the hook (NT)

[not fooled]

67. I tell anyone who doesn't follow politics and doesn't vote

that it will take them a LOT longer to work and pay for the disastrous effects of puke "public policy", e.g. student loans, taxes, etc. than to inform themselves about politics and what the parties and candidates are going to do if elected.

[EffieBlack]

69. This is everything.

Thank you

[SeloverB]

72. Real Progressives should....

Real Progressives should work to end the two party duopoly that is strangling our democracy, instead of enabling it.

[louis c]

73. Our system doesn't work that way

The largest plurality wins all the electoral votes in a state.

The Repukes get that. They don't work to split their votes, even if it's an asshole like Trump.

So, if we create a 3rd party, and we split 60% of the vote, between us, and a fucking asshole like Trump will win 38 states with 40% of the vote.

Your idea would work in a parliamentary system, but all we would do is fuck ourselves in the current system. What we need to do is support our ideas in a 2 party system, move the Democrats in a direction consistent with our beliefs. But in the end, 2 parties 3 parties or 4 parties becomes irrelevant unless you can unite within that party if your candidate loses. You can do that in the Democratic Party and have a chance to win.

Politics is less about Philosophy and more about math. How many election cycles do you have to go through before you figure that out?

[ismnotwasm]

75. Where do you suppose the two party system came from

And what would be the way to “end” it?

[Demsrule86]

119. It is that sort of thinking that led to our defeat in 16. You will never end the two party system...

and if you did what then? Look around at Europe...conservatives win more easily in a multi-party system...people are governed by the minority and often conservative party. It is not our system but our disloyal and very foolish voters who don't vote Democratic as if there life depended on it which it does that cause us to lose and Republicans to win...there will never be a viable third party...but those who seek this may very well elect more Republicans and destroy liberalism/ progressivism for all time. Time is short. Look around you.

[leftofcool]

79. Ditto here. We have left the stage.

[Sophia4]

91. We have an election coming up in 2018. Another in 2020.

When we post here, we need to all ask ourselves this question: Will my post help Democrats win in 2018 and 2020 or will it increase our chance of losing?

If it will help us win, post. If not, delete the post.

We need to unite, Bernie people, Hillary people, all people who want the best for our country, economic fairness, racial and gender equality, the rule of law and respect for every citizen.

Any time we feel like posting words that don't invite people who may have voted third party or for Bernie or even for Trump to vote for Democratic, progressive and liberal candidates, we should stop ourselves. Because when we post words that discourage people from voting for and identifying as Democrats, we harm not just the Democratic Party but our country and ultimately, ourselves.

Time to unite and stop fighting the 2016 primaries and election over and over. Heads forward, brains engaged, words that build harmony. That's what we need.

[louis c]

96. That's exactly what this post does. It's called "tough love"

and some people have to learn the hard way.

I don't know if your advice was intended for me, but kissing the asses of naïve individuals who don't understand what a binary choice is in a final election didn't work with the Nader voters in 2000. Every generation seems to have to learn the hard way. Humphrey/Nixon in 1968, too many Democrats couldn't tell the difference until it was too late. Gore/Bush in 2000, caused 2 wars and a financial meltdown. Now, the worse of the worst, the living embodiment of Adolf Hitler running the greatest country the world has ever known.

If naïve' Democrats have to wait for the perfect candidate, we'll always lose.

So let me get your point, exactly. If I work for a Democratic candidate in the Primary, and he or she wins, the people who campaigned for another candidate can sit out the General Election. But if their candidate wins, I should break my ass for him or her?

Just let me know what the ground rules are.

You see, I don't need the bullshit, personally. I am fighting for the next generation. If they can't figure out what a binary choice is and it turns out that they have student loans until their 50, can't deduct student loans' interest from their taxes, that they won't qualify for Medicare until 65 or Social Security until 70 because Republicans win election after election because they sit out, vote third party, or write in during a General Election, I don't much give a fuck any more. As I said in the OP, I'm getting sick and tired of fighting for people who don't know how to fight for themselves.

[Sophia4]

97. Follow your conscience. If your conscience allows you to work for the candidate

who wins the Party nomination, go out and work as hard as you can.

But no one should be surprised that those who did not support Hillary in 2016 don't support the Democratic candidates in 2018 and 2020 if they see on Democratic internet sites now posts that disparage them.

It is time to show compassion and above all understanding for those who did not vote for Hillary or support her in 2016. That's how we can unite the Party.

[louis c]

98. Again, I don't give a fuck

I'm not kissing anyone's ass. I worked for Hillary in 2008 and Barack was the nominee, an outsider who caught fire with the young part of our party. I donated $1,000 to his campaign and spent 10 days in New Hampshire knocking on doors in the General Election, because that's what real Democrats do, and we won.

Last year, Hillary was my candidate in the primary and Bernie was the outsider who caught fire with the younger part of our party, and Hillary won. So, a large part (not all) of Bernie supporters sat out the election. You see, I know what a binary choice is. Those who haven't figured that out yet are going to get fucked.

I made very good choices in my life. I worked a union job (and organized my group to join). I became an elected union Rep. I married a very good woman. I have a pension, Social Security and 100% health care. I own my own home. My wife and I decided not to have children. I'm not fighting for me or my family. I would have moved heaven and earth to help Bernie get elected if he were the nominee, just as I did for Barack in 2008. I have a roller deck (I'm really dating myself) with 1,000 favors that me and my family did for people over the past 40 years, Getting people jobs, heating assistance, scholarships, housing, etc. When elections come, I turn out hundreds of voters.

But I'll be damned if the only way to get any individual or group on board is only if they get their way all the time. Instead of worrying so much about alienating people like them, worry about alienating people like me.

[BzaDem]

114. If one's conscience doesn't allow one to work for Hillary, maybe one's conscience is the problem.

Perhaps the best way of forcing one to grapple with how they could have made such a catastrophic decision is to remind them every day the consequences of their decision.

[louis c]

118. On this beautiful Sunday Morning, I say Amen to that

[Shoonra]

94. Yes there was a difference ....

On the one hand we had a candidate who wouldn't show us his tax returns, wouldn't level with us about his medical records, was rude to his opponent in debates, and had driven multiple businesses into bankruptcies and shortchanged numerous vendors and contractors.

On the other hand we had a former first lady, former Secretary of State, former planner of Bill Clinton's unsuccessful prototype of Obamacare, lawyer, and go-getter. And yes, she had an abrasive personality, Susan Sarandon says she would have started a war but I am not at all clear who with.

If you didn't vote, or you threw your vote away on Stein or Nader or anyone else, you helped Trump win.

The economy is in trouble, Nazis are marching down the street, and we don't know what side our current President is on.

[KPN]

101. Oh, I think they will learn from this. I'm confident we'll get the votes out in 2018 and 2020.

But it will be a reaction to this President and this Congress. It won't be because the Democratic Party has won them over. And if after we regain control we don't get results then it will be ephemeral. Apathy is what happens when people don't see a solution to a situation in which their needs are not being met. Apathy is a result, not a cause.

[C Moon]

102. That Social Security is next on the chopping block.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

136. True dat.

GOP eyes post-tax-cut changes to welfare, Medicare and Social Security

High-ranking Republicans are hinting that, after their tax overhaul, the party intends to look at cutting spending on welfare, entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, and other parts of the social safety net.

House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) said recently that he wants Republicans to focus in 2018 on reducing spending on government programs. Last month, President Trump said welfare reform will “take place right after taxes, very soon, very shortly after taxes.”

- snip -

“You also have to bring spending under control. And not discretionary spending. That isn't the driver of our debt. The driver of our debt is the structure of Social Security and Medicare for future beneficiaries,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said this week.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/01/gop-eyes-post-tax-cut-changes-to-welfare-medicare-and-social-security/?utm_term=.ab2e660a792e

Social Security is not an entitlement program, it is an earned benefit. We pay into it, like we do a savings account, to have funds available for our retirement. The SS Trust Fund is separate from the rest of the U.S. budget, and does not contribute to the national debt. While it may have some problems, a lot of them could be resolved by eliminating the cap on payroll taxes and let the rich contribute to the fund (although many of them get income via investments and stock options, which are not subject to Social Security withholding). The first step is for the Democrats to stop letting the Repugs keep getting away with framing the discussion, and turning Social Security and Medicare into entitlements.

[lunamagica]

103. K&R for visibility.

[fleabiscuit]

144. Non sequitur. nt

[joshcryer]

105. They won't see shit now.

They will maybe see some shit in 7-15 years.

[JonLP24]

112. Can we quit with these generalization bashing what about the people

Who voted Republican. Please focus on the corruption. Lifelong Republicans voted Bush saw the light and have been Democrats ever since. Inform fight voter suppression and Gerry meandering get rid of voting machines and RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE Facebook ads divide and conquer bullshit stop excusng the Republicans and their bullshit propaganda.

[louis c]

124. The object of this post is to point out consequences for actions

Last edited Sun Dec 3, 2017, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

This latest tax bill is a travesty. In one way or another, we all lose.

But the group that will be hit the hardest are the younger adults, the Bernie supporters. Now, Bernie and a lot of his supporters did come to Hillary, but far too many sat out or went the other way out of naiveté' or spite. "If we nominate Hilary we'll lose" became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The 35 and younger crowd will be saddled with student loan debt well into their adult life. Some estimates are 50 or older. The Republicans have their eyes set on raising Medicare eligibility from 65 to 67, over time. Eventually, with another Republican round, you'll see the full retirement age for Social Security raise, again incrementally, from 66 to 70. All the current 55 and older will be grandfathered in.

The debt will be increased with huge deficits every year. All of this for a tax break for the uber wealthy, the very rich, and already highly profitable corporations.

You know who really escapes the brunt of all this? People like me. I'll break about even. I already qualify for Social Security and Medicare. I have a defined union pension. I own my home (and another in a foreign country). My taxes may go up $1,000 or stay the same. In either case, it's no big deal to me.

I'm a Democrat and have been all of my life because it's the party that best represents working people. We protected this state (Massachusetts) from becoming a "Right to Work" state by electing Democrats. I was active in Democratic politics, helped the union lobby the legislature for workers' rights. got involved in campaigns for Democrats at every level, all the time, regardless of the nominee.

Now, the younger Democrats want a third party if their candidate fails to win the nomination. My answer to them "do what you want. In the end, I'll feel bad on election night, but you'll get fucked for the rest of your life".

[Spider Jerusalem]

117. I blame old white people, personally

Trump won every single white voter demographic except for under-30's, Jews, and people with advanced degrees. Trump won white MEN 45 and older by a 30-point margin.

[Demsrule86]

120. Trump did what the GOP always does in that respect... but he won the rustbelt and that gave him his

victory...there were enough Stein voters to have stopped this...and consider that Hillary won four million votes more than Trump.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

121. I accept your blame, being an old white guy.

Ok, I voted for the "D" straight ticket in November, but was perhaps less-than-enthusiastic. I voted "Bernie" in the primary.

The 2008 primary was basically a mess in Michigan, but I voted "uncommitted" because John Edwards' name wasn't on the ballot. I'm not very good at voting in primaries.

[Yonnie3]

127. Shouldn't that say "I blame old white people, personally" who voted for tRump?

because many didn't.

[Spider Jerusalem]

130. Most of them did (63% of white men 55 and older, 55% of white women 55 and older)

white voters over age 55 constitute 13.5% of the electorate, and considering the narrow margins in the states where it counted? Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania? Blaming old white people for being Trump-voting racists makes as much sense as blaming young people for not voting or voting third-party.

[Yonnie3]

135. Your stats are correct.

My quibble is that ALL old white people did not vote for the moron who is in office.

Blaming (your word) a demographic group is, in my opinion, counterproductive. Recognizing the fact we did poorly in that demographic is fine.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

126. K & R

[David__77]

129. How ageist and wrong headed.

Younger people voted much more Democratic than older people, generally speaking. And turnout has historically been lower among younger people.

Few people voted third party or wrote in names.

I do think plenty of younger people didn’t agree with or didn’t like Clinton and also voted for her.

[tomp]

133. just another McCarthyite attack on the left.

If one looks at the history of the u.s., recent or remote, and comes to the conclusion that the problem is with people not voting for democrats all the time every time, one is is suffering from some sort of mental handicap or is a democratic party hack trying to blame others for the failure of the democratic party to attract sufficient numbers of votes.

The democratic party has a long way to go before it can absolve itself of blame for our current troubles. In other words, it's not just about the last election. Our current troubles are of long standing (like the last century plus, at least) and the democratic party is not uninvolved.

The idea that one must vote for the democrat because the republican is worse robs people of their right to their political principles based on observation of historic realities. that, to me is fundamentally unpatriotic. In fact, voting democratic no matter what could be considered as part of the fundamental problem.

I know from personal experience that leftish democratic voters have been lobbying for the party to move left for many decades (at least since the time of Roosevelt) to no avail. What we get is Rahm Emmanuel lecturing us about ponies and obama's cat food commission, and then you all blaming us for all the problems (in other words, we got rightward , corporatist movement). I have always voted democrat even though i have no love for the party with its entrenched leadership and increasingly rightward leanings (among other things). I vote democrat but i advocate for a third party because the party has abandoned me and my kind. I believe many young people see this as well. You can yell about it and cast blame all you want but you are not convincing.

I also don't appreciate young people (or anyone else for that matter attacking "boomers" (of which i am one) and their purported consumerism. Boomers like any other generation are a mix of things. Broad-brushing is wrong.

Third parties are not necessarily a problem in an of themselves. Bill Clinton may have benefitted form Perot running in '92 (there is debate about this, but there is less debate about clinton winning by tacking to the right). But overall, offering the voting public more choices rather than fewer seems just overall more "democratic." The real object of this post is the ongoing suppression of the ideas of the leftish wing of the democratic party. Other threads (and the jist here) have referred to us as "the far left." This is McCarthyite talk and it is part of why the democratic party loses votes from the left. This should be obvious.

I believe Hillary won the election and there are a multitude of reasons why she did not actually gain the office. Attacking the left wing of the party for correctly summing up the history of the democrats is just asking for more trouble.

[xmas74]

141. If you stayed home and purposely chose not to

Vote when you had the option?

Yep.

[GaryCnf]

145. It must be so nice

To sit in judgment of those to whom we do not speak as one to whom we do.

Such hubris

Such culpability

[xmas74]

146. I'm worried about my own child.

You choosing to not vote screws her over.

I have no qualms blaming someone who refuses to accept their place in this mess.

[vkkv]

148. Let's just get more people to vote for WHOEVER they want to! That is our right.

Yes, I VOTED FOR HILLARY !

But enough with the complaining about 3rd party voters, geeeez.

[louis c]

149. if you vote green, like Nader and Stein...

...you'll get fucked all the time.

If you voted third party in the past election, I have no sympathy now for your plight.

It's not a complaint about voting Green in 2000 or 2016, but if people keep fucking up, they should at least be aware of the consequences.

And if I have to donate money and work my ass off, and the people I'm trying to help work against me, I may as well stay home and save my time and money.

I don't need people like them, they need people like me.

Get it?

[vkkv]

150. But they aren't you and that is everyone right - Get it?

[louis c]

153. I only want to be allied...

...in a coalition in which all parties can count on each other.

If a voter, of any age, voted third party, stayed home, blanked or wrote in a name in the General Election of 2016 and can't, today, say that that was a mistake and they would never do anything like that again, they are too stupid for me to be allied with.

Of course I'm only speaking for myself, but, as you can see, this OP has 139 RECS, so there is more than just me with that opinion.

[vkkv]

155. So you're bigoted against liberals who don't vote your way? Isn't that what you're admitting to?

How patriotic !

HRC WON the popular vote btw...

[louis c]

160. bigoted????

Last edited Sun Dec 3, 2017, 08:39 PM - Edit history (4)

If a liberal in the general election didn't understand the only way to stop Trump was to vote for Hillary, and, after one year, still thinks they did the right thing, that person is a political moron that I will avoid.

By your definition of bigotry, any two people who enter into a debate about an issue that they feel passionate about, and fail to agree, are both guilty of bigotry.

If I thought that Max Naumann was an idiot for his political beliefs, does that also make me a bigot?

<snip> In 1934 the group made the following statement:[6]

"We have always held the well-being of the German people and the fatherland, to which we feel inextricably linked, above our own well-being. Thus we greeted the results of January, 1933, even though it has brought hardship for us personally."

A possible reason why some German Jews supported Hitler may have been that they thought that his antisemitism only was for the purpose of "stirring up the masses".[1]

The seemingly ironic fact that a Jewish association advocated loyalty to the Nazi programme gave rise to a contemporary joke about Naumann and his followers ending their meeting by giving the Nazi salute and shouting "Down With Us!".[7][8]<snip>

Link to historical record of Max Naumann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

[vkkv]

161. Oh for Gawd's sake..

Geeeezzuzzz..

[louis c]

164. Get the point?

Some people are political morons, and I refuse to waste my time and money on them.

If anyone sat out this last election, or voted for Trump, and today can't see the error of their ways, anything we say to them now, is a waste of time.

I bet you learned something new today. I bet you never heard of Max Naumann or that their even was a large group of Jews in Germany that freely and openly supported Hitler in a free election,, and continued to support him and his regime, right up until they were hauled off into concentration camps.

My point is, some people are hopeless causes. If hundreds of thousands of Jews could be fooled into voting for Adolf Hitler it proves that there are people who will vote against there own best interests.

But, I still bet you never heard of Max Naumann until today, and he should serve as a lesson in political science to you.

[vkkv]

166. I think you are mistaken.

You are wasting a HELL OF A LOT OF TIME on someone (me) who, at this point, doesn't give a damn what you think.

Is that actually.. um, sane? Really?

[louis c]

169. I spend my Sundays on this forum

I spend 6 days a week working for the political arm of a powerful union, and working to organize workers into unions, representing them by servicing and negotiating their contracts. I am proud of what I've accomplished for others during my 25 years of service in work that really matters to people's lives. I lobby, once a week at the state legislature to advance worker's rights in my state. I am the chairman of the ward committee for the Democratic Party in my city. I have used "tough love" in my dealings at all levels.

There are very few more worker friendly places than the state of Massachusetts. A lot of people care what I think. Your opinion, not withstanding.

[snowy owl]

151. No one knows how they would have voted. Blaming isn't the answer.

What power to give one person. I haven't read or watched Sarandon in decades. You know, Variety is not where I get my political news. Nor do I care what she, Clooney, or any other entertainer has to say about politics.

[flamingdem]

167. I've done gotv at the local community college

and many of the students are tuned out.

They're just not listening. And they're so busy with school and having to work.

But mainly they're into their social lives and phones and just can't feel it .. the cannot FEEL
what is hitting us because they're somehow removed. Not all, but many.

[DemocraticWing]

170. Hillary won the youth vote in a landslide.

This OP is not based in fact, it’s just some anecdotes being used to generalize about an entire generation. Youth voter turnout could have been higher, but let’s face it, the Democrats need to do better to win.

[louis c]

171. This OP is ablout young voters because...

...this tax bill negatively effects them the most. You can bet when the administration does something that negatively affects unions, I'll be pointing out how union members voted in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

I have posted about the 100% increase in the deaths of coal miners on the job due to the loosening of regulations.

It took a perfect storm of idiocy and individuals who didn't understand a binary choice in the final election in order for the worst piece of shit in our history to become President. Each time a group is harmed, I will point out how they voted (or didn't vote).