Why is it always young men? Is testosterone poisoning a problem?

[Patiod]

OK, I'm kidding (somewhat). I live with a really great guy, and "some of my best friends" are men.

But turn it around:
If women were always the ones doing these shootings, you can be damn sure there would be a huge discussion about Hormones that Drive Women Crazy, TV specials about "terminal hysteria", and general discussion about what can be done to treat women who are showing symptoms of "Female Violence Disorder" (FVD).

But perhaps because maleness and male behavior is the default setting in most of our cultures, I've yet to hear anyone discuss why it's always men doing this stuff. We simply acknowledge that testosterone spikes during the years when men are most likely to be violent, say "boys will be boys" and move along.

Anyway, just throwin' it out there for General Discussion.

[flamingdem]

1. Gun = Dick?

Certainly always seemed that way from a female point of view. Macho power trip. Excluding those who hunt for dinner for their families.

[Edweird]

86. Except that a lot of women own firearms.

[PDJane]

2. Testosterone and the "I deserve to be famous" thing.....

And that's the hero syndrome, sort of. Young men are conditioned to think they deserve...and can have...it all. The gorgeous, compliant, girl, money, fame, the whole nine yards.

It ain't possible.

[Swede]

3. If testosterone was the cause,there would be a lot more violence.

Half the world's population is male.

[seabeyond]

5. exactly. too many boys ad men do not behave in a violent world. there is a reason. i agree. nt.

[Patiod]

6. Not testosterone - too MUCH testosterone

Testosterone "poisoning"

Just saying, there's zero talk about why the shooters are always guys. More talk about why they tend to be white guys than about them being guys.

[Swede]

17. Being male is part of the puzzle.

Culture is a another. I have never really delved into this,but there must be lots of studies into this problem.

[seabeyond]

4. women have been taught to internalize... turn their issues within. men have been taught to explode

out.

from birth we teach our gendered child how they are allow to handle emotions.

as things become more messed up in our society, we are seeing more girls explode out in violence. maybe not shootings like these but, there is evidence of escalation of violence among our girls.

[Patiod]

9. I've heard of it, but it's pretty rare

We had two junior high (middle school?) girls in Philadelphia literally shoot it out over some boy. Seriously - they brought guns to school, and had a shoot-out in front of the building. Over a boy.

so it happens, but it's pretty rare, and it tends to be against one person, rather than a large group (Columbine, VA Tech, Nickel Mines, etc etc etc etc etc etc)

[seabeyond]

15. hands down there are more girl fights in my sons high school, now a days, than there are

boy on boy.

[Patiod]

25. With guns?

That's what stopped me about the story when I read it in the Philadelphia Inquirer. You hear about girls fighting, but bringing guns to school to fight it out?

[seabeyond]

36. you are talking violence due to testosterone. now it is an issue about guns? males are hands down

indoctrinated into the gun culture over girls. look around you and our culture. it is not a tough one to figure out.

son was telling me about a fight with two girls. one on top of the other banging her head into the cement. ended up in comma. i cant hardly balance that violence out with guns.... we do not have a lot of issue with guns in school. not one that i have heard in four years sons been in school.

it is certainly out there. but, the evidence of culture, environment is a huge clue in there.

[NCTraveler]

12. I think you have hit on a Major point of public displays of volatility. nt

[rrneck]

14. Yep. Girls act in, boys act out. nnt

[earthside]

41. I suspect that is true ...

... women are taught/trained to internalize or be destructive towards those within their social/family circle (not that men don't often do that, too).

But boys/men have to be taught/trained by the dominate, elite culture to take-out their emotions/ambitions on others --- that is why men want are still the ones to go to war and kill and maim 'others'.

I mean, really ... think of the popularity of MMA and violent video games ... I'm just saying that as much as we still tend as a society to 'sexualize' women, we just as much force violence and aggression on boys and men.

I also think that we see a rise in this kind of destructive behavior in both sexes since the 1980s because of economic stresses and because the popular culture caters to the basest urges, hence the 'infantalization' of adults especially the 40 years old and younger group.

There are 'big picture' societal problems we are uncomfortable dealing with -- and they may have some effect on nuts like this Holmes character, but, of course, he is a tragically deranged individual that in some bizarre way made his own insane choices and that is not society's fault.

[seabeyond]

42. i agree with your post. and the two causes you suggest and adding a major cause imo. parenting.

i think with all you talk about in the shift of our culture from the 80's extend to the internet and people able to hook up with other anonymous people validating their off perspective on life, you have a lot of dysfunctional families without the support, trust, safe foundation that kids NEED to grow up healthy. further, i think there are more me me me parenting going on.

[arely staircase]

59. [phone]

[earthside]

60. Which leads to other uncomfortable phenomena.

First, of course, are the economic stresses that the emergence of a plutocracy in the United States has created for poor, working and middle class folks.

Liberals are sometimes uncomfortable addressing these social issues, but let's face it, the divorce rate certainly hurts children tremendously.

The pervasiveness of advertising has surely lead to a higher degree of the acceptance of materialism than any other pervious generation have ever known. There is a lot of cultural pressure on parents to never say 'no' to whatever video game or clothing fashion or music download that kids want.

Despite what the education establishment says, the truth also is that parental involvement in the schools is discouraged -- except when it comes to fundraising and tax hike elections -- otherwise butt-out (I don't know any parents who advocate for high stakes testing).

My last child has just graduated from high school and I am so glad she is out of public schools (and for the record I opted her out of ALL the high stakes NCLB testing -- usually the only parent in the school to do so).

I have a lot of sympathy for parents these days; I'm an older parent and I think the pressures from the corporate, consumer culture is truly not resistible.

I would like to see the tragic Aurora event lead to a discussion about our corporate, consumer, materialistic culture and how it affects us -- instead of another argument about gun control that we all know is going to go nowhere.

[seabeyond]

71. agree with all but...

and very good points, too. it all feeds.

Despite what the education establishment says, the truth also is that parental involvement in the schools is discouraged -- except when it comes to fundraising and tax hike elections -- otherwise butt-out (I don't know any parents who advocate for high stakes testing).

i have never found a school, even sons high school which surprised me, that wasnt thrilled me stepping in when there was an issue.

i so was a participant, that i got regular emails from teachers when they heard of an issue in another class.

in high school, i touched base with a couple three teachers of my oldest son, and a couple times thru out the year they sent me emails.

so i have never had issues with the schools.

and i really do not mind the tak tests. i want kids to take them, cause they score high adn help bring the average up. helping the schools

i am also one, trying to get kids thru school before they are totally fucked up. i do not blame the teachers and schools, i blame the politicians that are creating the mess for all.

First, of course, are the economic stresses that the emergence of a plutocracy in the United States has created for poor, working and middle class folks.

Liberals are sometimes uncomfortable addressing these social issues, but let's face it, the divorce rate certainly hurts children tremendously.

and this is a very real problem, that yes, we do not want to talk about.

[eridani]

102. The divorce rate argument is bogus

Comparing people in relationships with abusive or alcoholic spouses with those who are in good relationships is not valid. Of course the children of the former are in trouble, divorce or no divorce.

You rarely see comparisons of the effects on kids with one abusive parent whose other parent divorces compared with kids with one abusive parent whose other parent does not initiate divorce. When you do, it's always the underlying problem that is harming the kids, not divorce.

[seabeyond]

106. i think that is why this is not often discussed.

i think that if we are taking to an ugly environment in two parent home, then we know the unhealthy of that and a single parent would probably be more healthy environment. but, there is also the reality fo a single parent stretched to thin. and another reality for many, is in divorced single mom, the money is low, poverty level. and we do know that effects a child. they are reality. and tough ones. i dont think anyone would suggest better for the child to stay in two parent marriage when there is abuse, though.

[arcane1]

57. violence and aggression and emotional immaturity

Excellent post!

[Hippo_Tron]

93. MMA and video games are two totally different things

Video games are no different than violent action movies, going back as far as old western films. Basically, it's people playing around with weapons and hurting and killing each other. But when someone kills someone in a video game or a movie, there's no real consequences. That's why we watch/play them. When you remove the consequences, there's a certain thrill to it all. If we went through the same emotions that we did when someone actually died, there would be no violent video game or action movies because nobody would want to go through that.

MMA is people actually beating the shit out of each other in real life. Of course, boxing is also people beating the shit out of each other in real life, and thats been around for thousands of years.

[Marrah_G]

7. Testosterone "poisoning"?

[potone]

8. No, it is not testosterone poisoning.

We live in a culture that glorifies violence--especially male violence--as a solution to complex problems. Just look at all the wars we are engaged in, as well as the number of movies that glorify violence. Michael Moore addressed this issue in his film about the Columbine shootings. If we accept male violence as "natural" we are not only accepting the status quo, we are also dishonoring the many men who do not behave in a violent fashion.

[coalition_unwilling]

10. Actually, this deserves some serious discussion, imo. The fact that

most serial killing is committed by males is worth at least some scrutiny because of gender-biased preponderance.

It may be a nature (elevated testosterone) vs. nurture (patriarchal conditioning) type of debate. But the debate is worth having.

Thanks for posting.

[slackmaster]

11. It's not always young men

http://www.sdpolicemuseum.com/Brenda-Spencer.html

[Patiod]

30. Still overwhelming young men

Not saying it's NEVER girls, just that the VAST majority are young men

[maryellen99]

101. Also Jennifer San Marco

she shot and killed 6 postal workers back in 2006.

[GarroHorus]

13. I think, as was the case with Loughner, this guy was probably suffering from schizophrenia

Males and females have different reactions to schizophrenia. It's a fact, look it up. Males are more likely to react the way Loughner did. Loughner is now on anti-psychotic medication, remembers nothing of the attack and is shocked he did what he did.

[seabeyond]

19. and if i remember correctly, it hits males more than females. but, i was thinking about this and

again, the way boys are taught to externalize their emotions and girls taught to internalize their emotion, even in these disease, that would effect a different reaction. interesting. i might do some reading on this, today.

[hifiguy]

92. I think you are correct about the incidence of schizophrenia

Last edited Sat Jul 21, 2012, 04:13 PM - Edit history (1)

being far greater in males than females. Same goes for autism spectrum disorders, including Asperger's. More research is clearly needed on why this is so.

[seabeyond]

94. yes, agree. nt

[undeterred]

16. Why is it so often angry young white men?

What do they have to be so angry about?

[seabeyond]

21. good point. and it is mostly young white men. if it was about testosterone, then it would not

be just the young white male almost exclusively. and the thought there takes me to the "privilege" so many denies exist, that they are raised with and yet are not able to have the success they feel warranted because of the privilege they have been given and taught all their life.

very interesting. lol

exploring here.

[undeterred]

29. Same with serial killers...

Who comes to mind? Dahmer, Gacy, Bundy, Gein...

[SoCalDem]

35. Falling short of their fantasy selves

I think males (being more visually stimulated) can sometimes blur the lines between their real selves, and their fantasy self.

For the ones who are timid, quiet, meek, bookish (or any other appellation given them AFTER they kill). perhaps they get so frustrated that they fave failed, that they lash out at anyone, anywhere, as if to prove to themselves that they ARE "somebody"....and if no one values them in "real" life, they will "show" them all..

It's an irrational act, but to them it probably makes sense..

We have seen men acting on their fantasy life in harmless ways, so I can see the odd ones now and then going too far..

Their fantasies often revolve around prowess with women who would never go out with them, but they still try...or jock-wannabees who are past their primes, but still try to perform in sports, even if they are perpetually injured by the sport (I know too many 50+ yr old basketball players .. )

[seabeyond]

38. again, all that i put on societal conditioning. males are not more visually stimulated science have

figured out. http://sexuality.about.com/b/2006/06/19/new-brain-research-challenges-the-myth-that-men-are-more-visual-than-women.htm . though we cannot seem to get beyond that conditioning in all of us.

and if what you say is true then it would be all men, and not just white, and just some of those white, a grand minority.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. the DC sniper and his accomplice

were an exception.

Anger surely does seem to be a driving factor, that and frustration.

[rrneck]

18. I think its unwise to use one canard to promote another. nt

[cliffordu]

44. Yep.

[Lint Head]

20. Too much of anything is bad.

[seabeyond]

23. then why would it just be the young white male with too much. statisticall, this behavior is almost

exclusively the white male.

[Lint Head]

37. You are correct.

[Bluerthanblue]

22. there are discussions about women who kill their children-

and those discussions often involve talking about post-partum depression.

I don't know that it is testosterone which fuels the kind of incidents that you are asking about. It's possible that has something to do with it-
Traditionally men have tended to lash out at others with their anger, women tend to internalize it, which doesn't mean that they don't harm others, just that it isn't as random.

Why are most suicide bombers male? It is a trend that is changing, but the same is true there.

[Confusious]

24. Mental illness hits young men at a bad time

for men it's around late teens to mid 20's, women it's 5 years later.

5 years at that age makes a difference.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2011/01/for-young-men-a-dangerous-age-for-mental-illness.html

[LisaL]

26. It's not always young males.

There have been old males mass shooters and female mass shooters.

[Patiod]

31. And yet, who are the majority?

Young men.

It's sort of like serial killers. Yeah, that photographer guy who was killing children in Atlanta was mixed race, and the woman portrayed in the movie "Monster" was a woman, but the overwhelming majority are white men.

[hfojvt]

48. you can find the answer in "Backlash"

"As Ronald C. Kessler, who tracks changes in men's health at the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, says: 'All this business about how hard it is to be a single woman doesn't make much sense when you look at what's really going on. It's single men who have the worst of it. When men marry, their mental health massively increases.'

The mental health data, chronciled in dozens of studies that have looked at marital differences in the last forty years, are consistent and overwhelming: The suicide rate of single men is twice as highas that of married men. Single men suffer from nearly twice as many severe neurotic symptoms and are far more susceptible to nervous breakdowns, depression, even nightmares. And despite the all-American image of the carefree single cowboy, in reality bachelors are far more likely to be morose, passive, and phobic than married men.

When constrasted with single women, unwed men fared no better in mental health studies. Single men suffer from twice as many mental health impairments as single women; they are more depressed, more passive, more likely to experience nervous breakdowns and all the designated symptoms of psychological distress - from fainting to insomnia. In one study, one third of single men scored high for severe neurotic symptoms; only 4 percent of single women did."

Point is that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, whereas a man without a woman is like a fish that has been run over by a bicycle.

Think about what society puts on men - they are supposed to have glorious careers. They generally have to pursue the opposite sex. If a woman is single, it is likely true that she has rejected men who sought her. If a man is single, he has been rejected by the women that he sought.

You see how there is a huge difference there?

Further, men are not supposed to be weak. For a man to cry or seek some kind of emotional help would be unmanly. His pain and fear make him seem pathetic - even in his own eyes, to say nothing of what other men (and more importantly women) are gonna say and think about him.

I think of the scene in The Breakfast Club. Bender starts talking about how his father insults him, hits him, and burns him with a cigar for spilling paint. He then yells, knocks some books off the table, climbs up the stairs, stomps and sits by himself. Hurt gets converted into rage.

Think of a hurt child. If a girl gets hurt, she can start crying, run to mom or dad or her friends and they will comfort her, saying "what is wrong, princess?" If a boy gets hurt after a certain age, and runs to mom or dad crying, he's gonna be told "big boys don't cry" and no way in hell is he gonna turn to his male friends with hurts and fears. They would not know how to deal with it anyway if he even had the guts to try. Better to just punch a locker or a sofa or a smaller guy, and have a few beers (alcohol, of course, being a depressant).

This kid, being smart, had a whole lot of pressure on him. He was supposed to be able to do great things with his big brain. Promises were made to him all through his childhood. "Get good grades, goto college, and you get a good job." So he believed it, he played by the frigging rules - and he had squat to show for it. Working at Mickey D's? How degrading for a guy who scored 35 on the ACT. Are you kidding me? He miust have felt like the WORLD's BIGGEST LOSER. When you don't have a job, you don't have a girl what you do have is - REJECTION. You have been rejected by all of society, or so it feels. Nobody wants you. Nobody values you. No employer and no woman. Well, what woman would want an unemployed loser?

Well, when you have been rejected, it is very easy to start to hate. To hate all those other people who seem to have what you cannot get. To hate all those other people who don't care about you or your pain. See, I have been there. I can remember a few times walking back from some pointless job application in the rain. Walking, because I cannot afford a car, and feeling hate for all those people driving past me. They had cars, and probably jobs and spouses and families, and they just drove right by me. It was like I didn't even matter to them. As Tracy Ullman sorta joked "the world is cold, it's cruel, it's dirty, and it's full of people who hate you and are mean to you just because you are different." When you feel hated, it is very easy to hate right back.

[Mimosa]

50. Hfojvt, you've nailed it.

Hfojvt, you've answered the question. Did you write all of your post or part?

Three or four decades ago there were more economic opportunities available to men and less competition. Your paragraphs here explain what could have been the tipping point which made this young man's ego explode.

This kid, being smart, had a whole lot of pressure on him. He was supposed to be able to do great things with his big brain. Promises were made to him all through his childhood. "Get good grades, goto college, and you get a good job." So he believed it, he played by the frigging rules - and he had squat to show for it. Working at Mickey D's? How degrading for a guy who scored 35 on the ACT. Are you kidding me? He miust have felt like the WORLD's BIGGEST LOSER. When you don't have a job, you don't have a girl what you do have is - REJECTION. You have been rejected by all of society, or so it feels. Nobody wants you. Nobody values you. No employer and no woman. Well, what woman would want an unemployed loser?

Well, when you have been rejected, it is very easy to start to hate. To hate all those other people who seem to have what you cannot get. To hate all those other people who don't care about you or your pain. See, I have been there. I can remember a few times walking back from some pointless job application in the rain. Walking, because I cannot afford a car, and feeling hate for all those people driving past me. They had cars, and probably jobs and spouses and families, and they just drove right by me. It was like I didn't even matter to them. As Tracy Ullman sorta joked "the world is cold, it's cruel, it's dirty, and it's full of people who hate you and are mean to you just because you are different." When you feel hated, it is very easy to hate right back.

[seabeyond]

53. he played by the frigging rules -

i used this not long ago.

we have found in this house, having played by all the rules for a lifetime, the rules shifted the last decade.

this is absolutely true.

[hfojvt]

73. Probably Durkheim was 150 years ahead of me, describing anomie

The first part of my post is a quote from "Backlash" the famous book by Susan Faludi which was referenced in Sleepless in Seattle where Meg Ryan says "nobody read that book".

Not sure if the competition is worse, although with today's unemployment rate, things are bad now. Or if expectations are higher. The college degree is more common, and thus not as valuable. I read somewhere that even in the 1970s college graduates were taking blue collar jobs at Ford plants, and in the late 1980s I had a hell of a time getting a job with my undergraduate degree. Actually I never did get another job with my degrees, other than a part-time teaching job for one year. Since then I have worked in low paying factories and as a janitor. So I know about feeling like the world's biggest loser because I was 1st runner up in 2003 and 2nd runner up in 1995, 1997 and 2000. Look at that, such a big loser that I couldn't even win the world's biggest loser contest.

I demand a recount.

[w8liftinglady]

70. you are so right.

Straight,gay,trans.... there is self-hate put out against men who are just...themselves.

I've been busy on the Dallas Morning News with THAT trip.

http://letterstotheeditorblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2012/07/pro-and-con-boy.html

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/columnists/jacquielynn-floyd/20120719-backward-scouts-policy-absurdly-out-of-step.ece

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

28. Could evolution have something to do with it?

I'm not discounting the effects of culture and environment but it seems to me that in all human cultures and environments, no matter how isolated, males associate aggression with success and view controlling others as more important than controlling themselves. Could there be an evolutionary component that arises from male sexual competition with other males for the female? Most species of animals display violence such as head-ramming elk. I have a male pet tortoise that is extremely docile until I put it near another male tortoise at which point it begins fighting. I'm no scientist but it seems to me that perhaps evolution plays a role.

[Patiod]

33. That's the sort of discussion I'd like to see more of

I'm just wondering why it so rarely gets discussed. you just know if it were women doing this, people would be talking about why.

[seabeyond]

39. i guess then you are suggesting genetically it is only white male with this gene? nt

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

43. White males?

No, I didn't mention race. But if you want to investigate gun violence of young men on young men of all races, you need but visit the inner city and see how many gun shooting deaths are happening all the time. I don't think any race of young men has a monopoly on killing each other, although there may be cultural differences in how they carry it out.

[seabeyond]

49. there are

other countries, with males.... go figure, you do not have this same stuff, and killing going on. you cannot resolve this with biology. too many clear examples where it is not.

serial killing, mass killing is almost exclusively white, in this country. in other countries, you have very little of this. other countries, there is total genocide. there is not one common factor but culture raised in that condones or rejects behavior.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

58. Drive by shootings in the inner city don't distinguish between race or gender

nor do shooting sprees in asian restaurants or bars. I was the unfortunate bystander in an asian bar where a crazy young man sprayed the interior with bullets, one bullet passing just in front of my nose. Fortunately, no one was killed but the guy standing next to me ended up on the floor on his back in a pool of blood, shot through the chest.

And there certainly are European serial killers. They don't usually make the news in the U.S. Didn't we have a killing spree just a few months ago in France where an insane man killed five people including Jewish children outside a school? According to wikipedia, 21% of all serial killings occur in Europe. While it's true that three-fourths of all serial killings occur in the U.S. I would bet that this can partly be attributed to the fact that we have far fewer statistics in third world countries on this phenomenon.

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm not discounting the role of culture and environment, but I can't see how we can eliminate the role of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution as one of the causes of male violence, whether it's 18th century dueling, 19th century gunfights, or 21st century drive-bys or theater shootings.

[hfojvt]

85. "males associate aggression with success"

Well, one of the big perks of "success" is generally the approval of women. So if males are associating anything with success, it is probably because they have lots of females cheering them on.

Among my dogs though, I seem to have a young female who is competing with her father to be the alpha male. She whales on her much bigger mother and goes at it with her dad, who is also bigger. With my other two dogs though, the mother seemed to defer to her son even though she was much larger. She was about 70 pounds to his 35. It was funny sometimes to see her trotting down the road and he would slam into her at full speed, bounce off and she was not even deflected, still trotting down the road. But every time they mixed it up, it seemed like she was the one to back down. Maybe the younger generation has more drive and more energy. I sorta saw it as a mother's love, letting her son win, but I may have been anthromophizing.

[CTyankee]

32. Oh, please, males have testosterone in every modern society in the world. The cause is access

to guns and the idea that we are "entitled" to have and carry around as many guns as we wish to have.

[Patiod]

34. I'm not saying "being male" caused this

You did see the first sentence of my OP, right? That I was just kidding?

My point is that I would like to see some discussion of why it's (almost) always young men doing this.

What is the intersection of young men, guns, and culture that causes these things to happen?

[CTyankee]

69. Yes, I know you didn't say being male was the cause. My point is testosterone, plus being

awash in access to guns, plus an attitude that we have a God-given right to buy, hoard and carry them day and night has given us an "entitlement." I think all these things work together...

[bhikkhu]

46. Virtually every swiss male has a gun and the same testosterone issues

...and there are no killing sprees. Their murder rate is one eighth of ours. So it would follow that cultural factors are likely much more important than simply the availability of guns.

[CTyankee]

66. And the Swiss agree to regulate their guns sensibly. Also the Norwegians.

They LOVE their guns, but they regulate them in ways that would give an NRA member a heart attack.

The truth is that we allow people MUCH more access to guns than either the Swiss or the Norwegians. Plus, we don't have their mindset. We think we have entitlements that having more guns keep us free from tyranny. Except that the real tyranny is what we have brought upon ourselves with our mystical relationship with the Second Amendment, which is unheard of in Switzerland and Norway. And yet those two nations are constitutional democracies and their streets don't run with the blood of the gun-slain. And last I heard, they were doing just fine with their economies, too...

[bhikkhu]

95. I'd argue that the mindset is the critical thing

...though every time we have a killing spree here it is the guns that are blamed. Which feeds into the usual "they're going to take our guns away!" hysteria, leading to more guns and more fear, and perhaps indirectly to the next killing spree.

Nobody is going to change the second amendment to allow tighter gun control, but there are a number of cultural changes (or a general cultural maturation), which might lead us in a better direction. Rather than seeing the same thing, over and over and over.

[CTyankee]

98. "nobody"? Really?

All it takes is for several somebodies to say "enough is enough" and fight for change. How else do you think we got civil rights, women's rights, an environmental law changes done?

[bhikkhu]

103. All it takes is a constitutional amendment

...ain't gonna happen. And I think a maturation of the culture - a step-up in education, an increase in unity, a recognition of the value of all people, etc - is more to the point.

[CTyankee]

104. There could also be a law expanding the rights of people to vote for reasonable gun control

that might be a new formulation not dreamed of yet. And a change in the make up of the USSC who would decide on that law's constitutionality. I think that would be easier than the con amendment process, altho it is technically possible if enough people agree.

I like your idea of a maturation of the culture. We need more voices educating the people, pushing back on this insane idea of maniacal individuality. Saner heads must prevail for civilization to be preserved...

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. This is the age when schizophrenia manifests itself

And some of the data already offered suggests this is possible.

[TNLib]

47. Bingo!

nt

[bhikkhu]

45. Good question, but then the problem seems mostly to be in the US

...so our cultural expectations likely come into play as well. Perhaps the testosterone spikes along with a general habit of devaluing the rest of humanity (which is apolitical and common everywhere in US culture) combine to make it easier to fantasize about killing sprees, and easier to "snap".

[jimlup]

51. As a self respecting male I have more than a little bit of a problem with this

I would never accuse of woman of being only subject to her estrogen nor would I say that a man was subject to his testosterone. A false line of reasoning and one that will not eventually resolve any problems. It is the same misunderstanding of sex and sex linked traits that reasonable feminists always stand against.

[seabeyond]

54. it doesnt make sense, not even a little when the vast majority of men do not resort to murder

Last edited Sat Jul 21, 2012, 02:20 PM - Edit history (1)

you are right

[Mimosa]

62. ^ Agree with you ^

I'm a woman.

I think Hfojvt perfectly explained why Holmes exploded in violence. There's an economic and cultural context.

Some young men, deprived of meaningful work, explode in violence towards each other. Or turn to drugs to self-anesthasize.

[Patiod]

79. I'm still wondering how we would react if it were women doing the shooting

As stated in the first line of the OP, I was kidding about "testosterone poisoning"

But I still haven't read much discussion about .what the reaction would be if it were the 20th or 200th mass shooting done by a woman, with only one or two being done by men.

How would we be reacting to that?

How would we explain it?

Why aren't we even discussing that it's overwhelmingly men doing this?

[seabeyond]

80. we are and have discussed, you just do not seem to like the answers. nt

[Mimosa]

91. Everybody's discussed it. Each time a mass killing happens.

Actually if you want to delve deeper, you might try to figure out what drives men to warfare which is 'authorised and approved' killing. That governments can send men (and now women) to war has been an organising principle of nation states.

Warfare is what men do and how they grab the stuff for the rest of their tribe.

Mass murders are not unique to the United States. One happened in China not so long ago. Here is a link to a particularly insightful article:

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/life/2009/04/08/203464/Loss-revenge.htm

Excerpt:

Mass murder is nothing new, and the invention of repeating guns only made it easier. But even experts who study the phenomenon have been stunned by the recent rash — seven in the past month, three in the past week alone. The string of shootings in the U.S. in the last month has claimed the lives of at least 53 people.

“Boy, this is a lot,” said Safarik, now a partner with Forensic Behavioral Services International.

Criminologist Jack Levin was not surprised to learn that the man who shot up a Binghamton, New York, immigrant center on Friday had recently been laid off from his job at a vacuum cleaner factory. What puzzled him at first was why Jiverly Wong chose his target.

“If it was only the job loss, why didn't he go back to the work site and kill his manager and his co-workers?” the Northeastern University professor asked himself. “Because that's what we're used to seeing when someone is set off by a termination at work. But he didn't do that.”

Then he learned that the 41-year-old Wong — an ethnic Chinese man raised in Vietnam — had taken English classes at the American Civic Association, and that he blamed his inability to find and keep work, in part, on his poor language skills. That's when the massacre began to make sense — or as much sense as any such tragedy can.

Wong's personal failures meant that he had “lost the respect in the eyes of others of the immigrant community,” said Levin, co-author of the book “Extreme Killing: Understanding Serial and Mass Murder.”

[nichomachus]

52. Actually, it would be better explained by low testosterone

Which causes depression and mood disorder.

[Mimosa]

63. Possibly.

The guy in question doesn't have the 'markers' of high testosterone.

[graham4anything]

55. because angry rightwing extremists are MALES who listen to hate radio 24/7/365

the Rush and Sean's (who defend the coward that shot Treyvon in the back who was weaponless) are telling people (with their supposed right to speak anything they spew,
that their life as they know it is being overtaken by minorities and all and they hate hate hate.

ratings wise, (according to the radio official ratings), those say, the few % that listen are almost 100% males, white males, who like the message of hate Rush and Sean and the others who shouldn't be named say, making them appear to have easily warpable minds

Sean actually had an interview with Zimmerman lobbing softball questions and looking at him with love in his eyes

then you have the all powerful and mighty NRA basically doing what you would think the FBI would call blackmail against anyone who speaks out who is not self-financed in the political world. (the most powerful superPac there is).

[arely staircase]

56. maybe it is caused by mothers who didnt hug them enough

or mothers who hugged them too much. Since we are just pulling stuff out of thin air.

[Beacool]

61. More than testosterone I think that it's cultural.

Boys have traditionally been taught to "act like a man", to bottle up feelings. As a woman, I know that I can call a number of female family members or friends to vent and use as a sounding board. I've had two jobs in the past where I was the only female, most times the guys forgot I was there. I noticed that, although guys may talk about their families and girlfriends, their conversations were mostly geared to sports, chicks (hotness levels) and physical activities: going to play ball, fishing, hiking, etc.

So I ask the guys, do you feel that you have meaningful conversations with other guys? If Holmes had been a woman, other women would have told him to cut it out and given him all sorts of advice as to ways to get out of the doldrums.

[jmondine]

82. I agree. There are lots of countries without our level of gun violence...

... and I believe their population includes men.

As boys, men are taught in our society that weakness = death, and that feminine = weakness. To show any feminine characteristics, whether real or stereotypical, is to lose the approval and protection of your parents and society and therefore to die. As a result, femiphobia runs rampant amongst the male side of our population.

[Beacool]

107. Exactly.

Men tend to act more violently than women, but this tragedy could have been avoided if we weren't so gun crazy in this country.

[Posteritatis]

64. Oh, hey, an evopsych thread. One of those hasn't reared up here yet. (nt)

[Patiod]

83. Still wondering what the reaction would be if all the shooters were women

I think there would be some thought: "oh, look, all the people doing these things are women. I wonder why?"

But no one seems to be looking at or questioning why it's overwhelmingly men.

Are we not allowed to question this?

(I'm sorry now I mentioned testosterone poisoning, even kiddingly. Obviously, some people don't have much of a sense of humor about that. This is NOT an "evopsych" thread.).

[Earth_First]

65. ...and credit card debt is the result of estrogen posioning?

See what I did there.

[Patiod]

84. Are women responsible for 99% of credit card debt?

If so, then I, too, would honestly wonder what was going on with them.

Seriously, we have a phenomenon here that is almost exclusively male -- someone was able to post a picture up thread of a killer from 1962 who was a woman -- but I'd be willing to bet the percentage of people shooting into groups with guns is pretty damned close to 98% male, and no one is discussing this.

I was joking about testosterone poisoning, but there has got to be some reason that young men are doing this. What's the intersection of gender, culture and gun laws that's causing guys to go off like this?

And why isn't anyone finding it strange that the people doing this are overwhelmingly male?

[NRaleighLiberal]

67. no - this is a topic best not to generalize - many, many factors. n/t

[Posteritatis]

89. But - but - we need the one simple thing we dislike to blame! (nt)

[caseymoz]

68. Look at girls and boys as toddlers.

The boys are fascinated by guns and trains. The girls by dolls, clothes and accessories.

There may be reinforcement involved in it.

One thing, however, it can't be testosterone alone. Too much of the population has a lot of testosterone, including women. Of course there's a correlation, but you have to figure out the other correlating factors.

This James Holmes began to buy guns apparently about sixty days ago. Before that, he was apparently a diligent student with the same amount of testosterone, one would presume. What changed in his life?

[Odin2005]

72. The "Testostertone makes you violent" thing is a myth.

[seabeyond]

76. +1. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

74. You could just as easily point out the pressure to be a provider.

The fear of failure in that role seems to be a common thread.

[southmost]

75. more like an entitlement problem

seems to affect the white male population most

[oldhippie]

77. Video Games nt

nt

[Odin2005]

90. Tipper Gore, izzat you?

[billy_j]

78. It is not testosterone

It is not testosterone, I would posit he, like so many others who commit atrocities was on an antidepressant or anti anxiety drug.
My ex once was convinced I was depressed and wanted me to try anti Depressants..it was Zoloft.

I was amazed I couldn't "feel " anything. Even if I tried to think of horrible things.. (Like throwing puppies into meat grinders...sick yes but follow me here..I couldn't feel BAD! It was horrible. When I looked at so many of the atrocities being committed, I find they are all on some mind altering pharmaceutical.

I may be wrong her, but I will submit that this was based on some chemical cocktail prescribed to this young man.

[Quantess]

105. Yeah, you are probably wrong...

I know what zoloft is like, and it's really mellow in the normal dose. Zoloft actually helped me with depression, and it is not really that bad to quit, if you taper off gradually.

But if this guy were on, say, Effexor? Okay you might be on to something. I got EffexorXR pushed on me by a doctor who gave me free samples, and I became hooked like a chain smoker to cigarettes. Once I ran out of my ball & chain Effexor supply-- watch out, I was desperate, agitated, and ready to snap.

It took me a full year to be free from EffexorXR. A full year from tapering down from a moderately low dose, to half a pill, to 1/4 pill, to crumbs, and then nothing. A full fucking year of gradual withdrawal until I no longer felt the withdrawal effects.

I hear Paxil is at least as addictive. Unless you are in real danger of suicide and nothing else works for you, I would discourage anyone from EffexorXR or paxil.

Also to add: Effexor made me angry and physically lazy. I gained a little weight because I didn't feel like exercising anymore, but I was angrier in general, on Effexor.

[sulphurdunn]

81. Testosterone poisoning?

The guy is just violently insane. Just like the 58 year old lunatic who shot up a Unitarian church in Knoxville in 2008, or the 45 year of madman who opened up on a Jewish nursing home in Carthage NC in 2009. Like all of them, regardless of age, it will come out that, like most all of them, he gave plenty of warning of what was coming to anyone paying attention.

[Edweird]

87. Humans are violent by nature.

[bluedigger]

88. They all have mothers, too. What's up with that?

[Quantess]

96. I have sometimes wondered how bad my anger would be if I were a man...

...if I had been given exactly the same genes, except a XY chromosome instead of XX. Because, I have sometimes had really intense anger, and a feeling of low-energy anger, in general.

I definitely would not have shot a bunch of people, I know that. And I have never been a violent person. But if I were a man, I wonder if I would occasionally have done something really stupid in a moment of anger? Sometimes I feel like it was lucky that I didn't get a Y chromosome, because I might not be alive today if I were a man.

[treestar]

97. Totally agree with the bolded part

And any time in the future in which it is a woman, that'll be the first issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

99. I think men are less likely to seek help for mental health issues

That could be biological, cultural, or some combination of the two.

[GoCubsGo]

100. No. Males are affected differently by certain mental illnesses.

Schizophrenia is one such disease. It affects men and women differently. Do a search with the keywords "schizophrenia" and "gender", and you'll come up with a number of sites that indicate that schizophrenia sets in during the late teens and early 20s in males, and a decade later in females, and even more so after menopause. And, some forms of the disease affect the differences may be due to estrogen, rather than testosterone. Apparently they estrogen may be a protective factor, and since males generally have very low estrogen levels, they don't get the same protection. Males all over the world have the same "testosterone spikes" as males here, yet they don't go around shooting up people like they do here. Or, at least such cases are extremely rare in comparison. So, it isn't the testosterone that's to blame.

I don't think all these shootings are caused by our violent culture, or some supposed link between males, testosterone and violence. I think they are caused by untreated mental illness. However, I do think that the excessive violence, hate radio/TV, etc., in our culture pushe already sick people over the edge in a lot of cases. And, the easy access to weapons exacerbates the issue, as well. See: Jared Loughner. I am not psychiatrist, but I'll just say that if it turns out this Holmes kid is schizophrenic, or has some other mental illness, I will not be at all surprised.