Al Franken still hasn't denied grabbing women

[oberliner]

Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) has waded into the murky waters of trying to apologize for inappropriately touching women — while asserting that he didn't intentionally do anything wrong. And yet Franken hasn't denied any of the accusations against him, leaving the door open to the possibility that he is a serial groper.

In one week, reports have surfaced of four women accusing Franken of inappropriately touching them. Three women have said that while he was campaigning or was a sitting senator, he grabbed their buttocks while they posed for photos. (The two most recent accusations came from anonymous women who shared their stories with the HuffPost in a story published Wednesday.)

In response to the past three accusations, Franken has said he didn't remember the specific events, much less his accusers. And in an apology to his constituents on Thanksgiving, he suggested his accusers got it wrong. Here's part of Franken's response:

“I’m a warm person; I hug people. I’ve learned from recent stories that in some of those encounters, I crossed a line for some women — and I know that any number is too many.”

If you're confused by what he's trying to say here, you're not the only one. Franken's attempt at clarifying what happened only raises more questions, the central ones being: Did he grab these women's buttocks or not? If he did, how, exactly, was it unintentional? Were the women mistaken?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/24/al-franken-still-hasnt-denied-grabbing-women/?utm_term=.2051751bacf6

This is an article in the Washington Post.

[msongs]

1. the women who groped me havent either...or apologized. Maybe I should post anonymous complaints

about them

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

31. Groping anyone is wrong... and not to be made light of.

[FarPoint]

231. False accusations and character assination...

Not so good either.... especially years after the alleged incident.....I say, take it to Court.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

245. I agree with that too... the two positions are not mutually exclusive.

Can't we also agree that grabbing a woman's behind is not something that should be taken lightly? The dismissal of it by some as "no big deal" - assuming it even occurred in Franken's case, which is still unclear - is surprising to me.

[oberliner]

254. Thanks for this post

Not a popular perspective.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

259. Hard to believe this is even debatable... regardless of anyone's opinion of

what Franken may or a not have done regarding the incidents in question.

[JustAnotherGen]

371. Only if it is legit

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

382. Obviously.

[WinkyDink]

331. Go right ahead.

[FarPoint]

2. Good....

Secondly...I don't give two shakes of a Donkey's Tail if he never mention these alleged claims...ever...I don't participate in Tabloid style Trial by Media.

[bettyellen]

3. He's handling it better than men who have more credible witnesses, or you for that matter.

[oberliner]

8. What about the points the Washington Post article raises?

Are they not reasonable?

In particular, how is he denying the accusations while at the same time apologizing for them?

Or is he not denying the claims?

[ChubbyStar]

10. My friend has a horse that died yesterday...very sad

Really sad

[bettyellen]

13. He directly apologized for the joke photo- that he did not call her out as a liar when she obviously

Is about the actual groping that is NOT depicted is merely being politically smart at the moment. He welcomes an investigation, and so do I. That he has not admitted groping is meaningful, I think.
It's obvious from the timeline of the reports that her "report" was exaggerated greatly and coordinated with Briebeart, Stone and others. Why are you carrying water for Breibart and Stone?

[oberliner]

16. A liberal writer in the Washington Post is carrying water for Breitbart and Stone?

The article in the OP is by her - I agree with some of her points. She is not Breitbart and Stone, she is a left-leaning, feminist, Washington Post writer.

He apologized for the photo, but was vague with respect to the woman's claim of being forcibly kissed against her will (he said he remembered the rehearsal differently).

He has not admitted "groping" but has said "he crossed a line" and has said his behavior was "inappropriate'.

What line is he saying he crossed? That is what is not clear to me (or the Washington Post writer).

[bettyellen]

28. she told at least three lies- the grope being depicted in the pic, the "kiss" being written in for

Her specifically, and that she was forced into a kiss that was actually a part of her job (one she was also willing to do with strangers, no less). None the less, Franken is smart to wait for the investigation to show all that, instead of joining in the bullshit flinging of partisan lies and innuendo. Would that more people want to get to the bottom of the situation before slandering anyone.
Tweeden has a lot of explaining to do regarding her coordination with liars at Breibart and other RW outlets. I think if she had a credible story she'd stay away from that scum.

[Ms. Toad]

321. The willingness to engage in a staged kiss with a stranger, as part of a USO show

has NOTHING to do with whether she consented to kiss Frankn.

Whether you believe her or not, there is no place in progressive diaglog for suggesting that consensual sexual behavior on any other occasion or with any oother person has anything to do with consent in the occasion in which she alleges she did not consent.

[bettyellen]

327. She was a paid professional while rehearsing and kissing him- and lied about it.

And she lied about the groping pic also, so what she alleges needs to be investigated. Franken is correct about that, she just wants to smear him and move on... and that is not a fair hearing at all.

[Ms. Toad]

329. That is not responsive to what I said.

You alleged that somehow her willingness to kiss a stranger cast doubt on her claim about Franken. The two are entirely unrelated.

As to the groping pic, if she lied about it - why did Franken acknowledge it and apologize for the inappropriate behavior it depicted? We need to take our cue from Franken, and not try to deny behavior he has acknowledged occurred. He has acknowledged it, and apologized for it. That is the end of it, as to the picture.

[bettyellen]

337. She was paid for by the USO to kiss at least two men. She lied about the circumstances of that...

Saying Franken had deviously designed the script to molest her. In reality, that was the joke in the script- she hoped to confuse the issue in that as well as in other ways. (Lying about what the picture depicted) I get the consent issue, but she had literally consented to kiss people for money and some notoriety. This is not at all related to someone applying for a job, it's the job she was paid to actually do. A lot of higher caliber entertainers should turn down that job, because it is kind of shitty and exploitive of women, but she took it- and then lied about it. She participated in sexy high jinks to boost her image. Maybe they were scripted- maybe her ass grabbing was an ad-lib, maybe it was another scripted bit. We've yet to hear those details. And yes they matter. I'm wondering what else about that particular day she lied about- since she lied about BOTH major accusations.

Franken did not admit her claims about that pic were true- just that the idea of the gestures made was offensive. She obviously lied about the groping and he is forced to walk a tightrope about it until it is properly investigated. He's taking the high road not calling her a liar even though she has lied. And apparently coordinated w RW outlets too.

[JustAnotherGen]

372. If you lie about one thing

You will lie about anything. She's 12 into her 15 minutes.

[oasis]

41. The "liberal writer" of the WP probably feels she has has an obligation

to make sure enough voices on the left have properly condemned Franken's behavior.

[Beartracks]

340. Alleged behavior. n/t

[spooky3]

110. What is your evidence for labeling her as liberal? Mediamatters

Disagrees:

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/03/06/sorry-state-both-sides-political-analysis-right-now-one-blog-post/215575

[stonecutter357]

138. she is a liar ...

[LBM20]

344. WRONG. Let me tell just what Franken has said and what he IS saying, and it is obvious:

1) He fully admits that the STAGED USO tour picture for COMIC purposes (what he has said and what it WAS) was inappropriate and apologizes profusely.

2) He has said, clearly, that he disagrees with her account of the kissing matter. BUT, as a gentleman, he does not want to attack her if she in fact felt uncomfortable. So he is taking the high road with that.

3) He OBVIOUSLY is saying he disagrees with the other Minnesota Fair photo-op allegations and categorically denies asking anyone into a bathroom. But he is being generous and saying that IF someone somehow felt uncomfortable with his hug, then he is sorry for that.

Don't you see what he is obviously doing? He is taking the HIGH ROAD. He disputes these allegations, but he doesn't want to sound like he is attacking these women on the chance that they actually did PERCEIVE that he somehow crossed some kind of line, even just with hugs or an arm around the waist during a picture. He doesn't even remember who these people are. There were hundreds if not thousands of greetings and pics.

Do you really think he would be a serial groper in PUBLIC for all to see with HUSBANDS right there? It makes NO sense.

Do you really think that DOZENS of women he worked with for DECADES would have signed statements saying he NEVER acted inappropriately around them, over decades and with tons of opportunities to do so, if he was a chronic serial groper? Again, it makes NO sense.

Franken is disputing the allegations but trying do so in a way that is sensitive and fair on the chance these people actually did feel uncomfortable with the hugs. He is being a gentleman about it.

One thing is certain. Al Franken is NOT a serial sexual harasser. If he was, you would have women he worked with for decades making such claims. They have made just the opposite.

These reporters want to sell papers. So they go on and on with this shit. Remember that.

[Atticus]

348. This post made it worth it to wade through all of the mindless and biased

spew above. Thank you!

[suffragette]

47. It's more than being politically smart. Its not being vile. Something most molesters have in common

is the way they viciously attack their accusers. We saw that here in Seattle when now ex Mayor Murray sicced his PR dogs on the men who were vulnerable, troubled teenagers when he molested them. It spoke volumes about Murray and not in a good way.

It’s the opposite in Franken’s case. He has not taken the bait to trash his accusers and his not taking that path speaks well about him.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

34. The Wash Post has raised legitimate points worthy of debate.

[bettyellen]

51. Instead of debating what I said you keep repeating that. Seeing the same from "Revolution" folks who

Last edited Fri Nov 24, 2017, 05:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Have plans for Franken's seat. They don't seem to care they are aligning with an obvious RW hit job. Here discrediting themsleves

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

74. huh? wasn't debating you... my response wasn't even directed to you at all and certainly

was not repeating anything. Please stop putting words in my mouth... thank you!!

[bettyellen]

229. Sorry- so funny how that response was word for word the same as another DUer here....

Funny, as in sounds scripted.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

248. Scripted? Now you have a conspiracy theory?! Please, do tell!

Can't wait to hear this one!

Guess saying sorry you made a mistake, wasn't good enough?? You hafta throw in more crap? You're better than this bettyellen.

[bettyellen]

264. There's a conspiracy of "fake concern" around this from purported lefties- same who ripped HRC to

Shreds over email on Twitter. It's all over the Internet- as is this RE collusion to spread Tweeden's proven lies.
There are "Revolution" people looking to unseat another Dem for no proven reason. They are pushing this story all over he net to try and make gains. They actually think loyal Dems will fall for their bullshit again.

Wow, you need to get out more!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

276. It's absolutely fine you have that view, I don't disagree with you about bad actors on twitter...

and the internet at large. But, why do you feel the need to continually take personal shots at me? Now, you rudely suggest that I "need to get out more"... that's funny!! hahaha!! You're a real class act bettyellen.

Why not just admit your mistake? Is it really that hard for you? Oh, sorry, I forgot, you're perfect... carry on and feel free to take another shot if it makes you feel better about yourself.

[bettyellen]

328. It's not merely "my view" it's the reality of our political situation. Fake liberal trolls abound.

And it sounded like you were claiming you were unaware. Were you just playing games with us?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

341. There you go again... why would you suggest I'm playing games?

I am not disagreeing with you in the slightest, I have no doubts what you're saying is true... it just has nothing to do with the points I was making and certainly is no reason to bash me for it.

Talk about games... sheesh. Just admit you made a mistake - or don't, I really don't care - and just move on. But, please stop with your silly rude insults... you're just embarrassing yourself. Thank you.

[Atticus]

349. It is my view also. Thank you for your tenacity and common sense. nt

[R B Garr]

356. Wow, thanks for pointing that out about the Revolution

eyeing Franken’s seat. That puts a lot of things into perspective. Your posts are excellent here.

[JustAnotherGen]

373. We gotta hit them with everything we've got

If they try to primary him - hit their candidate with everything we've got and then some.

[FarPoint]

37. This is all political bait, bites and " I'll fix- you". . .

So...no one should take this seriously....it's political tabloid chattering.....

[stonecutter357]

154. you just seem very desperate .

[Ms. Toad]

317. My take is that he is not denying the allegations.

In fact, by not denying them - and acknowledging he has crossed the line with some women, he is pretty explicitly acknowledging that there are women whose buttocks he has touched in similar circumstances (even though he cannot specifically respond to these specific allegations because he cannot isolate them).

If someone other than my spouse or daughter accused me of grabbing their buttocks, I could and would safely categorically deny it - it is not in the vocabulary of how I physically interact with people other than my spouse and - stretching it a bit - my daughter (whose rear end I playfully slap every once in a while). But no one else. Period.

Franken has done this with respect to the bathroom invitation - becuase that kind of invitation is not in his interactive vocabulary.

The fact that he has not done this with respect to the butt grabbing incidents tells me that he does, on occasion, engage in this kind of behavior (otherwise he would have categorically denied it as he did with the bathroom invitation), and the allegations may well be true - even if he can't remember the details as to these particular accusers..

What his apology ALSO tells me is that (1) he did not at the time realize it was offensive, (2) he does now, and (3) he is making a commitment to reflecting on his own behavior (even more broadly thatn the specific allegations) and changing it.

Becuase of the above, I don't believe he should resign.

I Just wish people (especially on DU) would follow his lead, stop the character assassination and victim blaming, and make the arguments that (1) his offenses were (unfortunately) run-of-the-mill nonconsensula touching (that he did not believe at the time was offensive and (2) that this has been a wake-up call for him and becuase he is seriously committed to reflection and change.

[mcar]

366. Well said!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

387. My guess

is that he is probably apologizing for something that he honestly can't remember doing just in case. Unless he is being a flat out lying liar, maybe he truly doesn't remember doing anything inappropriate but is trying to go out of his way not to question or challenge his accusers by apologizing whether or not he truly believes he did something wrong, especially given the numerous people he's taken pictures with in the 8+ years in politics. The Tweeden photo is pretty blatant in terms of poor taste of humor and behavior, but of all of the times that I've posed for pictures with people, even though I've never intentionally touched somebody's butt, I couldn't honestly ever say whether my hand accidentally momentarily brushed somebody's butt or if somebody could accuse me of groping them while putting my arms around them.

[cwydro]

73. Thank you.

I’m amazed that DUers are falling for this RW bullshit.

[FarPoint]

128. Well...

Don't include me in that pool party ..

[JustAnotherGen]

374. I'm not!

[awesomerwb1]

4. Please, enough of this

Time to move on.

Al Franken is better than any republican.
Enough said.

[oberliner]

5. The Washington Post published this today

Franken just released his statement. It's fair to spend a day or two on it.

[FarPoint]

40. Oh for crying out loud...

What is your agenda??????help understand.....

[oberliner]

94. Same agenda as the writer of the article I posted

Saw the statement from Franken - had some issues with it - thought it was worth discussing/reflecting on.

[FarPoint]

135. For...

This entire article is a snoozer.

[still_one]

72. You have been spent more than a day or two on this Obe, and so has DU, while net neutrality pretty

much is being ignored.

Whether people believe it was an apology or something else, most people here believe that grabbing someone's ass is not appropriate behavior, in the circumstances presented.

Most people here also believe that Franken should not resign, and I suspect he won't. He better not, unless it can be guaranteed that a Democrat will occupy that seat until 2020 when that seat is up for re-election.

We can go beating this horse until the cows come home, but the message is loud and clear, INAPPROPRIATE TOUCHING IS NOT A GOOD THING TO DO

However, if people want to continue to beat this dead horse, that is their right, while Rome burns

[oberliner]

92. I support your passion for the issue of net neutrality

And agree that it should not be ignored.

[womanofthehills]

144. What is your total obession with Franken? Thread after thread...

day after day, post after post. You really want him out.

[oberliner]

171. Only about a half dozen

Over the past week.

It's been an engaging topic of discussion.

When I post about things like a terror attack in Burkina Faso I get hardly any responses.

[jl_theprofessor]

209. So you're in it for the attention.

[Doremus]

225. I asked the same question a couple of days ago. I think you've hit the nail on the head w this. nt

[oberliner]

265. In a sense, yes

I like when posts lead to discussion rather than not.

[LanternWaste]

388. I'd makes the same allegation as well were I more of dancer.

I'd makes the same allegation as well were I more of dancer.

[JustAnotherGen]

375. ITA

[WinkyDink]

334. "Time to move on"? I'm not so sure that's a fact.

[BootinUp]

6. Its in there, read it again. Nt

[Atticus]

351. Having waded through all the faux outrage and concern duly recited above, I am compelled to ask:

is there ANYONE left under the bridge?

[Kingofalldems]

7. Still at it I see.

No comment on Trump trying to pick up Billy Baldwin's wife while Baldwin was in the room?

[oberliner]

9. Everyone here knows exactly what kind of person Trump is

No one defends him. No one doesn't think he is vile. No one here doesn't think he has sexual harassed countless women. No one doesn't think he is awful in every respect.

With Franken, it's a much more complicated situation since we all like and respect him, support his policies, admire his work in Congress, and believe he is an all around good guy.

[Kingofalldems]

12. You seem to attack Franken daily.

What's up with that?

[oberliner]

15. The article I posted raises some reasonable points

I agree with the writer's conclusion that his statement is confusing.

I would like to know if he is admitting to what he is accused of and apologizing for it, or not.

[Kingofalldems]

17. Not fooled.

[oberliner]

18. OK

Tin foil hats might be on sale at Walmart today.

[ChubbyStar]

24. Walmart?

[bagelsforbreakfast]

62. How is it you know that? n/m

[ChubbyStar]

21. Well.... give him a call

I'm sure he is concerned that you are concerned.

[oberliner]

23. This is a discussion forum

I think his statement is worth discussing.

[ChubbyStar]

26. So do I, so please call him

It would clear so many things up. Give him a ring on the horn.

[RhodeIslandOne]

76. Stop with the passive aggressive bullshit "raising points".

You want Franken gone, yesterday.

Meanwhile you depress enthusiasm telling everyone Moore will win.

You are becoming very tiresome.

[oberliner]

96. I don't want Franken gone

I think his statement could have been clearer. I'd like to know whether or not he actually did what he is accused of doing.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

343. I don't think anyone should WANT Franken gone...hell, I was hopin' he'd throw his hat in the ring

for President one day.

[DarthDem]

147. Fully Agreed

Tiresome is precisely the right word.

[pandr32]

30. Agreed

We've all noticed which is why no one has recommended the post yet.

[oberliner]

106. One person has

Hats off to them.

[FarPoint]

44. Exactly....

I think if we had clarification as to why the obsession...we could be more invested....Heck, maybe I'm missing something....it could happen.

[oberliner]

100. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

There are no communists hiding under the bed.

[unc70]

111. And a troll is just a troll

[oberliner]

126. Amen

They are usually pretty easy to spot. One giveaway is that they have a small number of posts but have been registered for a long time.

[unc70]

182. And no hides ever?

[Drahthaardogs]

237. And are not star members

But LOVE stirring up shit.

[oberliner]

267. If anyone wants to pay for my star membership

I would be eternally grateful.

[ProfessorGAC]

277. Two Things

1. Pay your own way
2. I doubt you'd show gratitude if someone did
Learn a new tune!

[bagelsforbreakfast]

345. Unless it's perhaps a deep cover op from ??? n/m

[stonecutter357]

143. +1000

[ollie10]

46. And.....here is the point....there is no equivalence between what Trump has done and Franken.....

Quite frankly, are we seriously talking about Franken "groping" anyone?

Really?

So far we have a picture that is obviously a gag picture that the photographer says she was not asleep, and it is obvious from looking at it Franken was spoofing.....be real.

And another report from the same woman that they rehearsed a kiss that she agreed to have part of a skit on stage....something Franken agreed to have investigated but the alleged "victim" doesn't want anything to do with an investigation.

A photograph by a husband of Franken and a woman....one would presume if it was offensive to the woman the husband may have had something to say about it, but apparently not so much.....

So far we have Trump supporters playing the role of victims.

And add a couple of anonymous "victims"....which is totally to be expected by any set up job......

Even if true, none of these actions are comparable to real groping. And certainly not something most women would object to with the result being threatening a man's career.

I am awaiting the next "victim" who will testify that Franken looked at her......

[mythology]

88. Actually if true, it is real groping.

That whole touching without permission. Yeah that's groping. If Franken didn't grope, why is he apologizing?

[ollie10]

105. It might help if you could give us the entire quote....from Franken....including ALL the context....

...of his apologies. I would like to see where he clearly apologized for "groping" or admitted he "groped".

Please don't take something out of context.

[Ms. Toad]

323. Here you go.

"I've met tens of thousands of people and taken thousands of photographs, often in crowded and chaotic situations. I'm a warm person, I hug people," Franken said in a Thanksgiving Day statement released to the Minnesota Star Tribune. "I've learned from recent stories that in some of those encounters, I crossed the line for some women -- and I know that any number is too many."

Franken, without qualification, acknowledged that "I've learned . . . that . . . I crossed the line for some women."

That's a fairly express acknowledgement that, even though he can't remember specific incidents the allegations are consistent with his behavior. If the allegations were not, he would have categorically denied them - as he did the bathroom invitation allegation.

[ollie10]

338. So obviously he did not admit to groping.....

Last edited Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)

I find it also disappointing not to include more context. Oh well. ...

[oberliner]

98. Agreed

Trump's actions are a million times worse than anything Franken is accused of doing. Trump is a monster.

[JustAnotherGen]

376. Trump's ALLEGED actions

His statements are confusing, are worth discussing and they are only accusations.

[Kimchijeon]

11. Still not falling for the nonsense. He's a warm and genuine person, not a groper.

The tribalistic pile-on instinct to squawk and peck at him because of bullshit allegations is disappointing albeit not surprising.

Thought we as supposedly critical-thinking beings were a bit above the animalistic chickenyard behavior?

He's being more forgiving in his responses than he should, but on the other hand I feel that if he were to loudly denounce the situation it would just what the opposition wants. Pretty much in this toxic environment he just can't win.

Calling out the bullshit = Cue the bleating about how sexual harassers need to be taken down, how all accusers need to be trusted 100% no matter what, oh see how all the "me toos" popped up, so that must mean all the rumors are trueeee" (Never mind how ludicrous the accusations may be, oh no, pay that no mind lol)

Ignoring the bullshit = "Oh he must be guilty he's not saying anything"

Trying to be as kind and honest as possible even though the situation is so obviously fake = "Why isn't he denying, why isn't he ignoring? See, See, blah blah whine complain"

I am simply ramping up my support for Senator Franken. He's one of the few decent public servants we actually have in the Senate, not to mention a decent, warm and genuine human being. He's one of the few voices who would dare to call out the scumbags and grill them with embarrassing questions, and oppose truly nasty legislation. Should be pretty obvious what is going on here, and there are real problems to be addressed, not this fake nonsense.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

204. Warm and genuine people can be gropers.

I think that is something we all need to realize and some of the reason for the #metoo campaign. It's not just creepy monsters in white panel vans handing out free candy that are rapists. All kinds of men commit various levels of sexual assault. Once we start saying "oh, but he's a nice guy" and dismiss it, we are doing no help for those that are victims of assault.

Do I want Franken to have done this? No. Hell, no. I was hoping he'd run for President in 2020. But we can't just dismiss it because we life him, or he seems like a nice guy, or he's not as bad as this rapists over there, or he's the right political view. Once we do, we are no better than the Republicans protecting Moore. I'm IN NO WAY saying what Franken is accused of is the same as Moore, just talking about those that dismiss what Moore (and potentially Franken) have done because reasons.

[JustAnotherGen]

379. It's only accusations

When they press charges or use in civil court and win - we can discuss.

Woman to woman - they need to woman up.

This isn't a tribal thing - this is -if they are lying they make it harder for women with legit accusations to get justice "thing".

So until they stop with the gossip mongering and woman up- I'm dismissing their asses.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

383. Do you say the same thing about Roy Moore accusers?

[JustAnotherGen]

386. Yep

[Ms. Toad]

324. He expressly acknowledged, "I crossed the line for some women"

It isn't just that he didn't deny it.

(That doesn't mean I believe he should be removed from office - I don't. I just believe we need support him in spite of his clay feet (rather than pretending he doesn't have them).

[Madam Mossfern]

14. How can he deny it

if he doesn't know who the accusers are?

Also - what constitutes a grab...if people are going to be nit-picky.
My husband can't deny that he's grabbed a woman's buttocks...and he had women before me.
This is just a silly detraction and wish we wouldn't wring our hands over it.

[oberliner]

20. He said in the statement that he "crossed a line"

What does that mean? What line did he cross?

[bettyellen]

33. "For some women" you think everyone has the same line? Some want no contact at all, others dry hump

Their coworkers on stage. It can vary a lot. There is not definitive way to characterize the accusations of anonymous folks or proven liars like Tweeden.

[oberliner]

103. The women specifically accused him of grabbing their butts

He either did or did not do that.

[womanofthehills]

141. The Republican woman said it - don't forget

Al could be a sloppy hugger - not ever realizing the top of his hand is on the top of their butts.. Who knows. Randi Rhodes said he is the least sexual man she knows and she worked with him for yrs. Also at Air America - no complaints for yrs.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

207. "Sloppy hugger" You can't be serious

When I hug my wife, I know EXACTLY when my hand is on her ass. When I hug women that aren't my wife, I know exactly where my hands are. Any dude who says "Oh, did I touch your ass when we were hugging" is fucking lying.

[bettyellen]

211. He's clearly only admitted to taking that staged picture. In the meantime he has welcomed an

Investigation. I'd like to see if any of the claims are as incredible as the first- as the first is a proven liar at this point. Interesting that you avoid discussing that. So do lots of "Revolution" type phony liberals who are salivating on what they hope would be a prime senate seat. I don't see anyone pushing this story who doesn't want something out of it- including this journalist who has carried water for Trump- yet you keep insisting is liberal why?

[oberliner]

223. The journalist is a liberal

Go to her Facebook page. Read her posts there. Get to know her perspective. It is definitely anti-Trump.

[bettyellen]

238. She was trashing people for calling out Trumps lies. Enough said. Not on our side. Not credible.

[JustAnotherGen]

377. Yep

And I'm personally throwing her in my garbage pile.

[lapucelle]

42. I think he's saying that he crossed whatever line the anonymous accusers perceive as a boundary.

To deny that he crossed whatever lines that these accusers perceive he crossed presupposes that Franken knows the details of their claims and that he disputes the reality of whatever reasonable or idiosyncratic boundaries these women have set.

[oberliner]

104. But the accusations were very specific

It's not like they said he hugged them a little too tightly or put an arm around them when they didn't want him to.

They said he grabbed their butts.

[shanny]

146. who are "they"?

[oberliner]

151. Two More Women Accuse Sen. Al Franken Of Inappropriate Touching

The two additional women, who said they were not familiar with each others’ stories, both spoke on condition of anonymity. But their stories, which describe events during Franken’s first campaign for the Senate, are remarkably similar — and both women have been telling them privately for years.

In a statement to HuffPost, Franken said, “It’s difficult to respond to anonymous accusers, and I don’t remember those campaign events.”

The first woman, who spoke to HuffPost on condition of anonymity because she’s worried she’ll be harassed online for making the allegation, said Franken groped her when they posed for a photo after a June 25, 2007, event hosted by the Minnesota Women’s Political Caucus in Minneapolis.

“My story is eerily similar to Lindsay Menz’s story,” the first woman said. “He grabbed my buttocks during a photo op.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/al-franken-two-more-women-groping_us_5a15a455e4b09650540ec295

[Nevernose]

163. You grabbed my butt in 2010

I demand that you quit your job, admit what you did to me, and that you apologize to me immediately.

See how easy that is?

That’s why the anonymity of the accusers is important.

(Oberliner did not really touch my butt, for the record. It was a rhetorical point)

[oberliner]

166. They both spoke to reporters though

And the reporters claimed to have gotten corroborating information before publishing the story.

[Nevernose]

185. Thats how anonymous works

They volunteered their stories to a reporter at a blogging site, who then “corroborated” with the best friend of one of the women. A woman who was at the event claimed he looked at her chest too much. It’s basically a reporter, paid partially on page views, repeating anonymous gossip and saying “She seemed believable to me.”

That’s problematic, especially as it came immediately after a slanderous, false allegation coordinated by Roger Stone, a guy famous for his dirty tricks. “We have more coming in future days” is a fairly accurate paraphrasing of the GOP’s smear masters’ statements.

I think the context matters, and calling Franken a serial groper denies the context of the accusations, the accusers, the accused, and the entire situation.

Would it make you feel better if the accusations I made were through a third party? I’m sure there’s someone here that would volunteer to libel or slander you.

[oberliner]

195. Why are you threatening to make false accusations about me?

I am not understanding where you are going with that.

All I am suggesting is that these reporters did some due diligence before publishing the stories, and that women might feel hesitant about giving their names in this context considering the fact that Lindsay Menz did give her name and was subjected to online harassment as a result.

[Denzil_DC]

197. *Ahem*

I believe you and I have some unfinished business down below about my long reply to you. I reposted it again there to make it easier for you to read.

Here's the direct link, in case you're lost in this maze you've created: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9882772

[oberliner]

199. Thanks - I will respond to your post immediately

(Even though you have been somewhat less than courteous)

[Denzil_DC]

206. Take your time.

That's been my major point.

I definitely don't need an immediate reply (I actially took a sip of beer earlier and logged on to DU imagining foolishly that I might have to focus on something other than this malicious cooked up neewspaper non-story, and I do have a life offline

But you're running around just as before, posting brief snap answers to various people, some of them will reply, and the whole circle will just continue.

It's obviously entirely your choice, but if these issues are more important to you than spending the rest of today exhausting yourself and taxing others by fending off multiple replies on an online forum, then I know what I'd do.

And I've treated you with far more courtesy than you've shown towards a number of us.

[JustAnotherGen]

378. N/S

[Ms. Toad]

326. That's now what they said.

Neither of them demanded he quit his job, admit what he did, or apologize.

And at least one (I believe both) confided in others contemporaneously - including one who confided in the reporter who wrote the article.

Far too many people on DU are jumping from allegation to demanding resignation. If he's guilty, he must resign - therefore we must take the posture that he is not guilty, which is showing up here as really nasty character assassination.

I happen to believe the women - [b]and I don't think he should resign. In my experience, while completely unacceptable, a lot of good men engage in that kind of behavior - and far too many do not realize that butt grabbing is not welcome without consent. The latter was a mystery to me, until I had a conversation with a man I consider a friend who grabbed my butt without consent - and it was crystal clear from that conversation that he had no clud he had crossed the line.

I'm glad it has been a wake-up call for Franken He has responded admirably, and I am confidentent that going forward he will not engage in this kind of behavior

[shanny]

164. I am aware. What I want to know is who they are.

[oberliner]

167. They asked that their named be withheld

Probably due to the amount of online harassment Lindsay Menz received for making similar accusations and using her name.

[shanny]

196. That's their perogative. It is mine to withhold judgment until I can consider the source.

This is as safe a time as there ever will be, and with all the spotlights being shone into dark corners, there isn't a better one.

[lapucelle]

192. Is that a quote?

[oberliner]

193. Is what a quote?

Which part are you referencing?

[lapucelle]

202. Never mind. I found the accusers' quotes.

First accuser
”I saw him and asked if we could take a photo together for my mother, and we stood next to each other ... and down his hand went.”

Friend of accuser
“She was in this all-women’s choir and he was at an event where she performed, and she told me that he basically grabbed her ass,” the best friend said.

Huffpo Reporter
She [first accuser] laughed off the incident at the time, she said, even telling other people about it as a sort of “party trick.” It wasn’t until recently, she said, that she felt safe talking about how uncomfortable she’d felt.

Second accuser
“I shook his hand, and he put his arm around my waist and held it there,” the second woman said. “Then he moved it lower and cupped my butt.”

I'm sure we'll get further details when the two women give their statements to the Senate Ethics Committee. They can do so anonymously under the "Jane Doe" provisions for congressional testimony. Hopefully the photos will be entered into evidence as well.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

35. Valid point... no question.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. I don't give a crap.

I voted for him before and I'll vote for him again. All this piling on has made me start to wonder whether there really is some GOP ratfucking going on, as Richard Painter has suggested. A couple of anonymous women have claimed that, in public in front of hundreds of people and cameras, he actually touched their rear ends! OMG, off with his head! So let's take this great opportunity to ruin one of the most effective progressive senators on the basis of a couple of unsourced accusations of butt-patting. Let's throw him under the Bus of Liberal Righteousness so the GOP can proceed with their destructive agenda, but unlike them we're pure and virtuous because we Believed The Women, and now we can at least feel good about ourselves while the GOP is fucking us.

Sorry, no. I will not only vote for Franken again in 2020; I will work especially hard to get him re-elected by volunteering for his campaign and donating as much as I can afford, because now we'll have to fight the damage done by the GOP and by those pure and virtuous "liberals" who apparently can't identify GOP sabotage when it's staring them in the face.

[oberliner]

22. Richard Painter is a right-wing Republican

The author of this piece in the Washington Post is a left-wing Democrat.

[Kingofalldems]

25. How many times have you posted that in this thread?

Last edited Fri Nov 24, 2017, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

[bluestarone]

36. exactly now

if we ALL would just ignore he MIGHT STOP????? Some people just don't get the message!!!! NOBODY ANSWER HIS AL comments please!!!!

[oberliner]

109. I've only pointed out that Painter is a Republican once

I also think I posted a couple of times about the author of the piece because people said this was coming from Breitbart types.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

27. Wrong. Richard Painter is an old-fashioned moderate Republican

and an outspoken opponent of everything the Trump administration has done. He is an ardent advocate for using the 25th amendment to remove Trump from office. He is a respected law professor, and as a resident of Minnesota he is also one of Franken's constituents.

Also, left-wing Democrats can be wrong and stupid, and Amber Phillips isn't a left-wing Democrat anyhow. She's a both-sides-do-it opinion writer who wrote a scathing piece a few months ago about how awful it was for Bernie Sanders to call Trump a liar. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/06/the-sorry-state-of-political-discourse-right-now-in-five-bernie-sanders-tweets/?utm_term=.b1748397d0ce

[FarPoint]

77. Well said...

[oberliner]

112. George W Bush is not an old-fashioned moderate Republican

His is the administration Painter worked for.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

123. He was their ethics counsel for two years

and might have kept them from doing worse than they actually did. If you've ever actually listened to the guy you'd know and understand what he believes NOW, which is a hell of a lot more important than where he worked 10-12 years ago. He blisters the Trump admin regularly on MSNBC.

[tenderfoot]

38. Provide proof of the author's political affiliation

In the meantime, I will continue to believe that you're lying.

[oberliner]

113. Go to her Facebook page

Look up her voter registration.

[tenderfoot]

115. post the link

I'm not doing your work for you.

[oberliner]

118. Facebook.com

Her name is Amber Phillips.

[tenderfoot]

129. post the link to her facebook page

I'm not searching for anything. You claim she's a "liberal democrat" yet have provide no proof of it.

[bettyellen]

39. Some "left wing" Dems are eyeing Franken's seat. The Revolution is desperate enough to promote this.

Have seen it in Twitter, same folks who hated HRC so much. Disgusting.

[ollie10]

50. Richard Painter is speaking truth.....

There is nothing left wing about a witch hunt, where guilty until proven innocent rules.

Read the Crucible.

[lapucelle]

213. Richard Painter is an ethicist and legal scholar

who happens to be a registered Republican. He is also on the board of this organization along with Zephyr Teachout.

https://www.citizensforethics.org/

I'm not sure why you're characterizing Amber Philips as a "left wing Democrat". She is a political reporter and analyst rather than a Democratic pundit, and she is pretty even handed in her critiques of both parties. In addition, Ms Philips has publicly called out progressives this year as well.

[steve2470]

281. you nailed it nt

[dflprincess]

353. My thought exactly. Thank you! nt

[wryter2000]

29. How else can he defend himself from something he doesn't remember?

Going after the women and denying, denying, denying makes him no better than Moore or Trump.

[oberliner]

116. He can say that he never intentionally grabbed a woman's butt

While still respecting the fact that he might have accidentally done so and thus understands why that might have upset someone.

[blimablam]

32. When did he stop beating his wife? Sheesh

[spooky3]

43. Its not an article. Its The Fix column, which is opinion.

Chris Cilizza used to attack Clinton in this column, until he moved or was moved on to CNN.

[oberliner]

60. Opinion pieces are articles

An article is just a piece of writing in a newspaper.

[spooky3]

108. No, they are not.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

45. The author of this WaPo opinion, Amber Phillips, has been described in this thread

as a "left-wing Democrat." She is nothing of the kind; she's a both-sides-do-it writer who just a few months ago harshly criticized Bernie Sanders for calling Trump a liar, because maybe Trump actually believes his own lies and it degrades our "political discourse" when the media say Trump lies. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/06/the-sorry-state-of-political-discourse-right-now-in-five-bernie-sanders-tweets/?utm_term=.b1748397d0ce

So even though it's bad to say Trump lies, it's OK for Phillips to suggest Franken is lying when he says he doesn't remember the alleged butt-touching?

[ProfessorGAC]

49. And No Reply From The Op

Nice find, VO! The ax the OP is grinding is now a needle on the end of a stick!

[oberliner]

52. She is a left-wing Democrat

Go to her Facebook page. Look up her public voter records.

[tenderfoot]

69. Post links

No one hear trusts your word.

[stonecutter357]

149. +1000

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

80. WTF is wrong with being a left-wing Democrat?!?! Proud to be one!!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

84. Nothing, but Amber Phillips isn't one.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

91. Ohh okay, if you say so... no idea.

[spooky3]

117. Mediamatters appears to agree with Velveteen Ocelot.

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/03/06/sorry-state-both-sides-political-analysis-right-now-one-blog-post/215575

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

122. Great... I guess.

[oberliner]

121. Yes, she is

Go to her Facebook page. Read her posts. Get to know her POV. Check her voter registration records.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

127. Then maybe she should stop writing everybody-does-it op-eds

instead of busting on Bernie Sanders for calling Trump a liar for fear of "lowering the political discourse." Her opinion pieces don't read as any more left-wing than Chuck Todd's.

[tenderfoot]

152. Post links

and quit telling others to do your work for them

[tenderfoot]

97. Is that why you voted for Bernie?

Or was it Jill Stein?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

119. Why so rude?!?!I am VERY proud to have voted for Bernie in the primary...

since when is that a crime around here?!

And on what basis do you have to accuse me of voting for anyone other than Hillary in the general? Have you no shame?! (Didn't think so.)

I would never stoop to your low level and make unfounded accusations against you... would be nice if you extended others, including me, the same courtesy, though I honestly don't expect it.

[tenderfoot]

125. Your concern has been duly noted

back to frothing at the mouth about Al Franken

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

148. lol, good one!! yes, frothing at the mouth... just because I'm torn over this issue...

and regardless of whether Franken actually did anything, I most certainly don't appreciate people making light of groping others.

But you go right ahead maligning people... lying about them if that's what it takes to make your fallacious points.

You're a piece of work!!

[tenderfoot]

165. You're not torn - you think Franken is guilty

You're the piece of work.

[Wwcd]

180. Thank you for stating the obvious.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

218. The only thing obvious is you.

[Wwcd]

280. Rofl

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

283. Thanks for making my point.

[Wwcd]

306. Stop reliving the dream of the primaries. Bern had his chance.

He lost the primary.
Its over.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

186. LOL Mr. "Mindreader"... got any lottery numbers too?!

Why can't you just admit when you're wrong??? First, you falsely accuse me of voting for Jill Stein and entirely ignore my pointing that out, and now you make the ridiculous claim that I think one of my favorite Senators is guilty, just because I CAN'T DECIDE if he's entirely innocent either of improperly touching women.

In EITHER case, REGARDLESS of whether Franken did anything or not, I most certainly do approve of people making light of these assaults on women. (Is this where I'm sposed to take a page out of your book and falsely accuse you of APPROVING of such behavior?)

So, please, you really should stop embarrassing yourself tenderfoot!!! But, thanks for the good laughs!!!

An apology would be nice... but, no doubt, your foolish pride is in the way. At least Franken had the decency to issue one, though it is not entirely clear what exactly he's admitted to. I know, I know, that makes me a horrible person... take another whack you whacky whacker!!! Embarrass yourself some more!!!

[Wwcd]

311. Calm down. Breathe in, pause, breathe out.

Better?
Everyone gets to have an opinion.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

322. Yes, you'll get no disagreement from me... just wish I was permitted to have one too...

without being disrespected.

[spooky3]

120. Do left wing Dems criticize Bernie Sanders for saying

Trump is a liar?

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/03/06/sorry-state-both-sides-political-analysis-right-now-one-blog-post/215575

[Denzil_DC]

133. I'll keep you company while you wait for the OP. No. No, they don't. n/t

[spooky3]

140. :-)

[Denzil_DC]

142. I'm out of popcorn!

I'm starting on the rugs.

[ProfessorGAC]

279. Wrong!

You're making this easy!
Her writings suggest clearly you are making that up!

[Demit]

54. Exactly. I was just going to post about her criticism of Bernie Sanders.

"A prominent U.S. senator just described the president of the United States as a frequent and “shameless” liar, a claim that for reasons I'll explain is difficult to prove."

Her reasonin" is that it’s possible he believes what he’s saying. “That’s why we in the media are careful not to call Trump a ‘liar,’” she writes.


Left-wing Democrat, my Aunt Fanny.

[bettyellen]

56. So, the OP is misrepresenting this writer as liberal, as well as the piece being journalism by WaPo?

Wish I could say it's surprising, but the Revolution marches on blindly trying to take prisoners by any means necessary. That they team up w Breibart yet again doesn't matter, it's about tearing down Dems.

[Lucky Luciano]

363. This well fed troll ate more today than on thanksgiving!

He has had a clear agenda for a long time.

[Denzil_DC]

48. How long are you going to keep flogging this horse?

If you're really bothered with these issues, aren't there a few more targets in the public eye you could be spreading your attention to?

Meanwhile, you target somebody who's trying to take positive concrete actions that actually affect women beyond any allegations from his past.

Here's something I've reposted a few times recently in earlier replies which explains why I believe Franken's responded as he has and why your demands aren't ever going to be met in a way that satisfies you, judging by your recent posts. It was first posted when this place was up in arms targeting Tweeden.

Quite frankly, I'm caring less and less what your reaction might be to it. The text below is never going to be an OP because this place hasn't exactly been short of Franken posts recently, and there are far worthier and more urgent targets, and in the end it's not all about Franken, as he seems to well know, if you can't grasp:

Here's a sad aspect to the story:

Al Franken wrote a bill to help rape survivors like me. He can’t lead on it now.

In November 2014, I was raped.

I’m certainly not the only one something this awful has happened to, but afterward, I felt as though I was. I was a 19-year-old college student. My life changed overnight. I faced an incredibly long fight to bring my attacker to justice: Daniel Drill-Mellum was wealthy, well-connected, and willing to throw me and my reputation under the bus. The #MeToo culture I’ve seen develop publicly over the last month wasn’t around to help me then. I was nearly harassed off the University of Minnesota campus for reporting. I was turned away by the Minneapolis Police Department despite the mountain of evidence in my case.

Over the next two years, I learned how to hold my frustration in, because I had an end goal in mind. I knew that my attacker belonged in prison, and I was determined to get the justice system on my side. I made mental notes about everything that was going wrong. I tried to have patience that someday I could make a different world. When my rapist was sentenced in August 2016 to six years in prison, I finally had my chance.

I sought help from Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.). He took up my cause without hesitation, and he worked with his aides to draft legislation to pay for training to help police departments treat assault survivors with more concern for what we’ve been through. But now that allegations have come out that Franken himself assaulted a woman years ago, I want another lawmaker to sponsor the bill we worked so hard on. This work deserves to be led by those without a history of sexual harassment or assault.

The news this week was especially disappointing for me because of how effective an advocate Franken has been for my cause. I felt my heart sink when I saw the news, but I was prepared to support the woman involved. I remember what it was like to be shamed and not believed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/18/al-franken-wrote-a-bill-to-help-rape-survivors-like-me-he-cant-lead-on-it-now/

If anybody wants to click through, they'll see the sort of work Franken's been involved in, and how sensitively he and his staff have handled the process of helping this woman frame the bill. She now wants to find a female congressperson to sponsor it instead.

I hope it's an overreaction to the early forms of this story, and she may revise her decision. Or perhaps it would be better if she can find a female senator to sponsor it, and Franken can offer whatever support is necessary, behind the scenes or from the floor. The problem with his involvement is Republican whataboutery. You'd hope a bill like this could find bipartisan agreement, but I doubt it.

It may shed some light on why Franken reacted like he did. The larger picture than his own career is the legislation he wants to pass and the changes he wants to come about - exactly as set out in his long statement. That's integrity.

I don't think any number of videos or pics of Tweeden cavorting onstage are likely to make Abby Honold feel differently, certainly not if Franken were ever to have a hand in relying on them as some sort of "defense" - especially in view of her own experience of the attempts to "throw me and my reputation under the bus". Or maybe she'll realize that this is more or less what's happened to Franken as her ally and change her mind.

What probably won't help change her mind is targeting somebody who comes forward with an allegation for her past behavior, however raunchy, given what she says above. Or maybe she'll join some here in resenting Tweeden for making false allegations, but that could be a slippery slope and she may not be able or willing to go there.

These are the stakes. This whole operation hasn't just targeted Franken, it's targeted the current wave of revulsion at revelations about how (especially powerful) men sometimes conduct themselves.

That's why I think Franken's reacted as he has, and why he's right to do so.

It's just my own interpretation, but I reckon Franken doesn't want to get into the position of publicly expressing disbelief of the women making the allegations, for reasons I outline above.

Arguing about whose hand may have gone where during a photo after all this time, in the case of the later allegations, isn't going to be very pleasant or illuminating for anyone, so this shuts that down as well as can be done as long as nobody tries to keep pressing it, and he's chosen to swallow some crow. I've no idea what did happen.

The one aspect he's outright denied is the business about going off for a washroom assignation - maybe he felt that overstepped the mark.

(Most recently posted as a reply here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9880859 )

[oberliner]

57. The Washington Post published this today

The statement from Franken is very recent. Seems worth looking at and discussing.

[Denzil_DC]

58. I published what I wrote above today.

If you aren't willing to address it, or even read it, given the speed of your reply, then you're beyond bothering with.

[BootinUp]

81. Lol . Nt

[Denzil_DC]

83. Aw, jeez. I know! n/t

[Orrex]

68. Low-hanging fruit

It allows the OP to claim the moral high ground, and when someone questions them, they can say "why don't you care that women are being sexually assaulted?"

Such a pose allows the poser to scold and harrumph without actually dealing with the much more widely toxic brand of assault practiced by Roy Moore and the idiot racist fuckhead who occupies the White House.

And if the OP (or a kindred spirit) tries to feign outrage and scold me for dismissing one form of assault in preference to another, let me ask this:

If a psychologist had to choose between counseling a young girl who'd been carefully groomed and assaulted long-term by a man in his 30s, versus an adult woman who might have been briefly touched on her clothed buttocks at a county fair ten years ago, which victim do you think would be assigned the higher priority?

Although it is counter-productive to "compare scars," it is nevertheless true that all wounds are not equal. We are idiots if we crucify Franken while Moore slimes his way into the Senate.

[Denzil_DC]

75. Franken was low-hanging fruit for the Republicans behind this spate of allegations.

I'm more and more inclined to think that was a major reason he was targeted.

It was to test him - would he attack and throw his accusers under the bus? They probably expected him to fall at the first hurdle.

Having cleared that one, would he issue an outright denial and call or imply that these women were liars? Maybe I'm giving them more credit for sophistication than they deserve, but perhaps they foresaw the dilemma he would face, and how some - even supposedly on our "side", including the OP - would react.

[Orrex]

86. All they need is a distraction

And the media (along with the OP and like-minded individuals) is happy to provide it.

NO ONE in the media (nor the OP) is talking about Moore or Trump or whichever doughy GOP shithead sent those dick pics earlier in the week. Instead, we hear about Franken 24/7.

The idiot racist fuckheads who will soon vote for Moore need only the weakest justification to reject godless, immoral Democrats, and this feeble bit of propaganda (eagerly catapulted by the OP and the like) gives them all the reason they need to vote another predatory pedophile into office.

[Denzil_DC]

89. There's that too.

We're probably all overthinking this drastically!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

102. And while Al Franken is lying beneath the Big Liberal Bus of Righteousness

under which he's been thrown by people who can't recognize GOP ratfucking but really like feeling good about themselves for Believing All Women All The Time, the GOP rolls onward in its monster truck, rolling coal and flying the Confederate flag and leaving greasy tire tracks all over the Constitution.

[Orrex]

114. True, true and true.

More's the pity.

Yes, Trump and company are nose-diving the country into the toilet, but Franken might have grazed someone's backside ten years ago. Let's focus on that!

[yardwork]

354. Well said.

[JI7]

234. Except the OP defended other cases of sexism

You give too much credit.

More like just trolling .

[Orrex]

261. I don't trust anyone with exactly 64,000 posts, pal.

Come back and see me when you reach 64,001.

(Until then, I think you're exactly correct.)

[Loki Liesmith]

53. There is no winning move

Denying the accusation means you call several women liars, which is problematic for a number of reasons because of the “believe women” crowd.

[oberliner]

71. How about admitting that he grabbed their butts (if that's what he did) and apologizing for same?

Or stating that he does not believe he ever grabbed anyone's butts, but apologizing to anyone whose butts he may have grabbed by mistake.

[yardwork]

233. Why don't you go into politics yourself and do it your way?

It's easy to throw stones on an anonymous message board.

[Loki Liesmith]

367. Game theory

1) If he’s guilty
A) and says he did it his words become a nasty campaign ad to be used against him.
B) and denies it he calls the accusers liars and he’s attacked as continuing to “victimize” his accusers.


1) If he’s innocent
A) and says he did it his words become a nasty campaign ad to be used against him.
B) and denies it he calls the accusers liars and he’s attacked as continuing to “victimize” his accusers.

Not playing the game is the move which results in the least harm to himself.

[oberliner]

368. Good points

I guess there is really no ideal way to respond. Whatever he says or doesn't say will be used against him.

Maybe his latest statement is actually OK under the circumstances.

[BootinUp]

369. correct.nt

[pangaia]

55. Not another post !

NEW NEUTRALITY

[bagelsforbreakfast]

65. Anyone think this is an eloborate TURING TEST? n/m

[Orrex]

70. Turing and Turing in the widening gyre...

[WinkyDink]

335. I was trying to restrain myself in this thread, but DAY-UM! Gots to give PROPS, Orrex!

William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
~~~~~~~~~~

[Denzil_DC]

99. If so, at this point it's in serious danger of leading to a FAIL. n/t

[ollie10]

59. I know you want to believe that 100% of accusers are accurate......

But you are ignoring the FACT that sometimes set-ups happen.

Sometimes accusers aren't telling the truth. For whatever reason.

A false accusation does nothing to help women, in fact it does a lot to damage the credibility of truthful women.

[oberliner]

63. The article in the OP is about Franken's statement

It seems like he could either say: "The accusations are true, and I'm sorry" or "The accusations are not true"

Instead, he did not address whether or not the accusations are true and apologized for something else?

What do you think he meant when he said he crossed a line?

It is not clear to me - if it is to you, please elucidate.

[ollie10]

95. You seem to be parsing words

He has made it clear that he doesn't remember things the same way as the accusers have. And he has been gracious in being remorseful for what may have been perceived other than his memory.

None of this proves he is guilty of anything.

You are hanging an innocent man. I know it must give you some self-righteousness to do that.

Again....what do we have here?

A picture that is an obvious spoof, and the photographer backs Franken. It strains credibility to even try to call this actual groping. So strike one.

A rehearsed "kiss"that a woman found obnoxious....but although Franken wants it investigated, she does not.

Somehow the woman, a Trump supporter, reported this a day after Stone predicted it.....

Which leads us to another Trump supporter who is reporting about an alleged photo made at the State Fair by her husband....of course, this woman was also a Trumper, but my point is how much groping was going on if it was right there in front of her husband who took the picture? I mean, really. Doesn't pass the smell test.

And....of course....if you have a set up.....you gotta have a couple more anonymous victims......hell.....there will probably be more of them!

And, meanwhile, you are parsing words.

Tell me....what is the hard evidence that Franken did anything that would be considered groping by most people. I don't want to hear about parsing words. I want hard evidence.....

Please, do you have ANY?

[mn9driver]

61. Franken is being respectful of what these women believe they experienced.

He may or may not agree that he did what they say he did. Some of them may be sincere, some may not be. He is being respectful of all of them.

The practice of forced full and abject confession to ideological standards, regardless of the evidence or lack of it, followed by exile or execution is something practiced in other places. Not here.

Franken has always been a champion of women’s issues. It’s puzzling to see how anxious some people are to throw him and those issues under the bus while proclaiming ideological purity. That kind of thinking has helped put Republicans in control of the entire government.

[Denzil_DC]

66. Thank you. I believe you get it, as do a number of others here.

In the end, life is short.

Some people will waste your time getting you running round and round in circles. As I get older, I'm more and more inclined to focus on those who don't play those sort of games.

[oberliner]

67. Are you saying he doesn't know if he deliberately grabbed someone's butt or not?

It seems like if he never deliberately grabbed someone's butt - he ought to say so (and he ought to say so if he did).

His statement includes him saying that he crossed a line. What does he mean by that?

[mn9driver]

79. Im saying he almost certainly does not remember these women.

You can run that through your ideological filter.

[oberliner]

136. Trolling is make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting

That's not what is happening here.

His statement wasn't great. That is not just my opinion.

He should have issued a clearer statement.

Either, I did this and I'm sorry or I didn't do this.

[DarthDem]

179. Exactly

An inflammatory OP, followed by determined, studied refusals to engage in any debate by those with opposing views. Oh, and repeating or re-referencing the OP many times as though it explains all and is immune to critical thinking. Pretty classic behavior.

[ProfessorGAC]

282. Yes It is

You appear to be the only who fails to recognize that your pursuit of this topic fits YOUR posted definition of troll to a T!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

156. It's certainly a fair question... just another reason I have mixed feelings about this.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

87. IF he did grope them, being respectful NOW is playing people for fools.

Sorry, just how I feel... that's not sayin' Franken did ANYTHING wrong - please dont put words in my mouth - though it appears he's admitted to SOMETHING... just not sure what... I'll admit, I'm confused by this whole ordeal.

[Denzil_DC]

93. Then read my long reply above.

I'm certainly not going to claim it's some magic De-Confuser™, but it may give you some food for thought.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

153. You make some valid points... why I'm so torn over the whole Franken situation.

[Denzil_DC]

157. Thank you very much for taking the time to read it.

It's definitely more complex than can be addressed by the simple response the OP claims to be expecting.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

160. Extremely complex... and why there are valid points to be made on BOTH sides.

Which is why I'm a little surprised by some of the insulting comments I've read here.

[Denzil_DC]

172. I think that's a false equivalence.

I do have a side in this. It's Franken's and the women he's been working with.

I don't think for one minute the other side - as represented by this OP - is arguing in good faith.

And believe me, in my life I've always been a painful both-sides-seer.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

188. That's fine.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

90. Another voice of reason!

And hi!

[BootinUp]

145. Great post. Nt

[Hayduke Bomgarte]

64. Al Franken still hasn't denied grabbing women

Neither has the Pope.

[DBoon]

85. and Francisco Franco is still dead

as they would say on Al Franken's old SNL

[Stinky The Clown]

101. mmmmpf

I'm sure others see it as a good thing. Keeping it alive and all, huh?

[oberliner]

132. A better statement would have ended it

Either: "I did what I am accused of and I apologize" or "I did not do what I am accused of"

[Vinnie From Indy]

107. I am so tired of your BS.

That is all!

[oberliner]

131. The article in the Washington Post raises legitimate points

I am sorry that you think it has something to do with BS.

[Orrex]

150. This

+1000

[oberliner]

161. If you want to talk more about this topic, please feel free to send me a PM

I will definitely respond and consider more carefully all of your points. Give me a bit of time to get back to you.

[Denzil_DC]

169. No.

I have no intention of engaging you in PMs, and I'll block you immediately if you send me one.

I have no idea what allegations you might make that could get me in serious trouble that I'd have great problems defending myself against, for one thing.

We'll do this on open forum or not at all. You can respond to my long reply above, or not at all.

Or there are any number of people making very similar points who're as yet unanswered.

[oberliner]

159. I've been responding to posts as quickly as I can

The OP was made literally just a few hours ago.

[Denzil_DC]

170. Then maybe stop replying so curtly to so many at once.

You can't possibly have had time to even read through my long one, let alone think about it.

Though as time wears on, I'm growing less and less interested in reading any response of yours.

[oberliner]

226. Thank you for that advice

It is very sound.

And I'm sorry you aren't interested in reading my responses. I've very much appreciated being challenged and engaged by yours (even though I wish you were friendlier about it).

[bagelsforbreakfast]

246. How do we know it's a real person? The responses are the kind a machine

(computer/AI) would give.

[stonecutter357]

134. nice hitjob but it was a fail like the last one .

[oberliner]

158. That damned Washington Post has got it in for Democrats!

Be reasonable.

[oberliner]

178. I am not trolling and I have attempted to address everyone who has engaged me seriously

To summarize my main points:

I agree with the point in this article that Franken's statement was confusing.

I think that if he did not grab anyone's butts then he should say so.

I think if he did grab people's butts that he should also say so and apologize for that.

The comments that people have made about the difficulty in responding to anonymous attacks and the sensitivity with which one has to deal with these sorts of matters generally are valid ones.

I also think there is validity to the argument that the right-wingers (and possibly Russian elements) are using this story to their political advantage.

That being said, though, I still would like some clarity from Franken on what exactly he is apologizing for, since he does not seem to be admitting to what he was accused of.

I'm not sure what else I can add beyond those points. (Most other comments have simply been attacks on me or my motives in even posting about this in the first place (as you seem to be doing)).

[Denzil_DC]

184. You haven't addressed a single point in my long response above. Not one.

You haven't given yourself enough time to digest anything like a serious counter-argument because you've been running around knocking off one-line replies to all and sundry.

Here, since you seem to have had trouble finding it, I'll post it yet again:

-----------------------------------------------

Here's something I've reposted a few times recently in earlier replies which explains why I believe Franken's responded as he has and why your demands aren't ever going to be met in a way that satisfies you, judging by your recent posts. It was first posted when this place was up in arms targeting Tweeden.

Quite frankly, I'm caring less and less what your reaction might be to it. The text below is never going to be an OP because this place hasn't exactly been short of Franken posts recently, and there are far worthier and more urgent targets, and in the end it's not all about Franken, as he seems to well know, if you can't grasp:

Here's a sad aspect to the story:

Al Franken wrote a bill to help rape survivors like me. He can’t lead on it now.

In November 2014, I was raped.

I’m certainly not the only one something this awful has happened to, but afterward, I felt as though I was. I was a 19-year-old college student. My life changed overnight. I faced an incredibly long fight to bring my attacker to justice: Daniel Drill-Mellum was wealthy, well-connected, and willing to throw me and my reputation under the bus. The #MeToo culture I’ve seen develop publicly over the last month wasn’t around to help me then. I was nearly harassed off the University of Minnesota campus for reporting. I was turned away by the Minneapolis Police Department despite the mountain of evidence in my case.

Over the next two years, I learned how to hold my frustration in, because I had an end goal in mind. I knew that my attacker belonged in prison, and I was determined to get the justice system on my side. I made mental notes about everything that was going wrong. I tried to have patience that someday I could make a different world. When my rapist was sentenced in August 2016 to six years in prison, I finally had my chance.

I sought help from Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.). He took up my cause without hesitation, and he worked with his aides to draft legislation to pay for training to help police departments treat assault survivors with more concern for what we’ve been through. But now that allegations have come out that Franken himself assaulted a woman years ago, I want another lawmaker to sponsor the bill we worked so hard on. This work deserves to be led by those without a history of sexual harassment or assault.

The news this week was especially disappointing for me because of how effective an advocate Franken has been for my cause. I felt my heart sink when I saw the news, but I was prepared to support the woman involved. I remember what it was like to be shamed and not believed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/18/al-franken-wrote-a-bill-to-help-rape-survivors-like-me-he-cant-lead-on-it-now/

If anybody wants to click through, they'll see the sort of work Franken's been involved in, and how sensitively he and his staff have handled the process of helping this woman frame the bill. She now wants to find a female congressperson to sponsor it instead.

I hope it's an overreaction to the early forms of this story, and she may revise her decision. Or perhaps it would be better if she can find a female senator to sponsor it, and Franken can offer whatever support is necessary, behind the scenes or from the floor. The problem with his involvement is Republican whataboutery. You'd hope a bill like this could find bipartisan agreement, but I doubt it.

It may shed some light on why Franken reacted like he did. The larger picture than his own career is the legislation he wants to pass and the changes he wants to come about - exactly as set out in his long statement. That's integrity.

I don't think any number of videos or pics of Tweeden cavorting onstage are likely to make Abby Honold feel differently, certainly not if Franken were ever to have a hand in relying on them as some sort of "defense" - especially in view of her own experience of the attempts to "throw me and my reputation under the bus". Or maybe she'll realize that this is more or less what's happened to Franken as her ally and change her mind.

What probably won't help change her mind is targeting somebody who comes forward with an allegation for her past behavior, however raunchy, given what she says above. Or maybe she'll join some here in resenting Tweeden for making false allegations, but that could be a slippery slope and she may not be able or willing to go there.

These are the stakes. This whole operation hasn't just targeted Franken, it's targeted the current wave of revulsion at revelations about how (especially powerful) men sometimes conduct themselves.

That's why I think Franken's reacted as he has, and why he's right to do so.

It's just my own interpretation, but I reckon Franken doesn't want to get into the position of publicly expressing disbelief of the women making the allegations, for reasons I outline above.

Arguing about whose hand may have gone where during a photo after all this time, in the case of the later allegations, isn't going to be very pleasant or illuminating for anyone, so this shuts that down as well as can be done as long as nobody tries to keep pressing it, and he's chosen to swallow some crow. I've no idea what did happen.

The one aspect he's outright denied is the business about going off for a washroom assignation - maybe he felt that overstepped the mark.

(Most recently posted as a reply above, here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9882431 )

[oberliner]

201. This is a really good analysis

My response is that you make some great points.

Franken has done amazing things during his time in the Senate, and accusations like the ones he is facing now are difficult to respond to, especially given his leadership on those issues.

[Denzil_DC]

212. Thank you.

Sincerely, thank you.

I don't expect you to agree with everything above, but if you haven't looked at the situation from that perspective, it may bear giving it a little time to digest, and see what other aspects of Franken's behavior since the allegations started breaking may otherwise be inexplicable, or even sinister.

[oberliner]

236. I do get where you are coming from

And even though some people are being a bit rude to me whenever I post anything on this subject, I understand the perspective. I get why people are seeing a bigger picture here. And I completely agree that the right-wing is using this story for nefarious purposes.

I am a person who supports everything Franken supports. He has been one of the best of the best in terms of Democrats in the senate. I have never disagreed with him really about anything policy-wise ever. I also think he is a funny and likable sort of guy.

All that being said, I do think that it is worth at least entertaining the possibility that he did touch women's rear ends without their consent. And if he did do that, it should be OK to say that we find such behavior to be objectionable.

[crosinski]

230. '... Franken doesn't want to get into the position of publicly expressing disbelief of the women.. '

I think you may be right. It's just that I haven't seen a politician act gentlemanly in so long, that I forgot what it looked like.

[stonecutter357]

175. you seem very desperate .

[MineralMan]

168. You seem to be oddly interested in negative stories about Senator Franken.

I'm oddly interested in your odd interest.

Al Franken appears to be telling the truth. He has apologized for his actions. What more would you have him do, I wonder. Would self-immolation be sufficient?

Feh!

[oberliner]

173. I think the article in the OP raises good points

I had the same reaction that she did when I read Franken's most recent statement.

[MineralMan]

174. I see. Oh, well...

Please proceed!

[steve2470]

176. come on, stop this shit, let the Republicans and the corporate media do their thing...

We don't need YOU helping THEM bash him too. On DU. Give me a fucking break dude or dudette.

[oberliner]

181. Literally just posted an article from the Washington Post

The writer makes reasonable points. We should be allowed to talk about them.

[steve2470]

189. uh huh nt

[oberliner]

183. Moscow?

The Washington Post writer, is she a Russian operative also?

This is seriously insane.

[blueinredohio]

187. He's trying not to say these women are liars that's why he says he doesn't remember

those episodes

[Denzil_DC]

190. I think you've just summarized in one sentence what a lot of us have been saying.

Thanks, and if you'd been reply #1, this might have been a lot shorter thread!

[oberliner]

198. Then why does he say he "crossed a line" ?

Presumably he is referencing some behavior there that he does remember.

[Denzil_DC]

200. *Ahem*

I believe you and I have some unfinished business up there about my long reply to you. I reposted it again there to make it easier for you to read.

Here's the direct link, in case you're lost in this maze you've created: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9882772

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

342. I'm really not sure what Al Franken is trying to say, to be honest, but I know one thing for sure...

that is, what I would say if I was in his situation:

I respect women and would NEVER grab a woman's ass in public, especially someone I had just met, so, while I don't remember meeting so-and-so, I can say WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that the alleged incident DID NOT HAPPEN!! Period!!

[arthritisR_US]

194. These claims against Al Franken are the most lame and

will make claims against true predators in the future much more difficult to prosecute, imo. In my 61 years I’ve been to countless event where my picture was taken with a male significant. Some put their hand on my shoulders, some my butt and others my waistline. None of them did I consider to be violated during the incident. Some women thought the chap was being “fresh” with them but many of us were “oh for gawd sake if that’s being fresh to you then you really need to stop asking for pictures”.
I recall only one incident where the chaps hand was creeping up my waistline and playing with my bra, I forcefully whispered to him “move that hand or prepare for it to be broken” . He responded appropriately. Women have a voice and need to use it at the time. Men don’t read minds and whats offensive to one woman isn’t to another so when posing for pictures all we women have to say is where we are comfortable with the others hand resting.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

224. Just because that's how you react, which is entirely fine, that doesn't mean, obviously, that

all women should find it acceptable for a man to grab their ass in such a way. Yes, I know I'm not entitled to hold that opinion here and deserve to be admonished for it, so flame away!!

[True Dough]

287. Hold strong, InAbLuEsTaTe

I was out for blood on this Franken issue following his weak/vague acknowledgement that he made women feel disrespected and crossed a line.

I have pulled back a little due to nuanced interpretations his statements that may have some merit. An ethics investigation, which Franken called for himself, is definitely in order.

But let me say this, if he indeed did grab some women's asses, there is no way in hell we should give him a pass just because he's a Democrat and just because there are Republicans who have done far worse. That is not the way any self-respecting individual should respond to such behavior.

Simple test for those trying to minimize what Franken may have done:

Your son Johnny comes home from high school and says Billy grabs girls inappropriately and everyone knows it. Yet Billy was made captain of the football team. Your response would be what? "Yeah, groping girls really isn't a big deal. You can do such things and still ascend to great heights with no fear of significant repercussions."

Really?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

296. Thanks....what's odd is my zero-tolerance for ass-grabbin' has NOTHING

to do with anything Franken may or may not have done. Yet, I'm catching shit for it... from some women no less!! Amazing!!

[True Dough]

298. Ass grabbing is not acceptable in 2017

Nor was it acceptable in any era. There may have been no consequences in the past, but we should be upholding moral standards for Republicans (Trump, Moore, etc.), Democrats, business leaders, celebrities and everyday folk.

It's really that simple.

[doc03]

203. So if he doesn't deny it he is guilty but if Trump or Moore denies it

it never happened.

[oberliner]

205. Trump and Moore are without a doubt 100 percent guilty of the much more serious charges against them

This has no bearing on that whatsoever.

[doc03]

210. How could they be guilty they say the women are lying and

it never happened?

[oberliner]

221. There is copious supporting evidence

You should maybe read up on those stories if you are unaware.

[doc03]

359. You don't seem to understand, that is what I am pointing out but there is zero evidence

on Franken but you are saying he is guilty.

[Pathwalker]

208. Trashing this thread, and everyone you post henceforth.

No reply required.

[oberliner]

216. That's unfortunate

Especially as someone who has Hillary Clinton as her avatar.

[Pathwalker]

220. I'm tired of you insulting good Democrats. I have yet to read

a single positive post of yours about ANY Democrat. Thank you for your typical insult. BYE.

[oberliner]

222. I spent the entire election cycle defending Hillary Clinton against the Bernie folks

It got a lot rougher than this.

[steve2470]

319. well done...... sigh nt

[doc03]

214. So he should do like the Republicons and deny it, case closed he is

completely innocent.

[oberliner]

219. If he never grabbed anyone's butt then he should say so

If he did, then he also should say so and apologize for that.

[doc03]

215. What is with this you are sure going out of your way to make Franken guilty.

I thought we didn't do that to Democrats on DU?

[oberliner]

217. Franken apologized and said that he crossed a line

You can read his statement in the article.

[doc03]

361. But you aparently agree with Kellianne Conway that Trump and Moore are

innocent in spite of all the women that are accusing them because they deny it.

[JI7]

227. There is clearly an agenda here. Attacking Richard Painter who is one of the biggest critics of the

Claiming media types are liberal when they are not.

[oberliner]

241. Richard Painter is a Republican

Attacking Republicans is supposed to be part of what DU is all about.

Also, the Washington Post writer is a liberal Democrat. Spend five minutes on her Facebook page.

[JI7]

242. No it's not. Attacking those who push right wing agenda is what this site is about. Mike flynn is

Yet we are allowed to attack him as much as we want .

[oberliner]

244. Richard Painter pushes a right-wing agenda

He campaigned for Jeb Bush (and worked for W).

[JI7]

247. The reason you are attacking Painter is because he is attacking Trump

And his supporters.

Not because he campaigned for jeb.

[oberliner]

268. I'm not attacking Painter

Just pointing out that he is a Republican.

Someone else brought his name up, not me.

[JI7]

270. Robert Mueller is a Republican also. You did it to try to discredit Painter on his attacks on trump

[oberliner]

273. I did not try to discredit Painter's attacks on Trump

I agree with all of his attacks on Trump.

I think it's great that even some Republicans recognize the awfulness of Trump.

It would be great if Painter could also recognize the awfulness of Bush (which folks seem to have forgotten about).

[JI7]

278. Bush isn't in office anymore. The goal right now is to bring down trump such Franken and Painter

Are trying to do.

[Beartracks]

228. His apology doesn't seem confusing to me.

His hand may have been low, with fingers actually on the top of the buttocks. Who's to say? Might've been too low for a few women among the thousands he's hugged and taken photos with. And that's what he's acknowledging. Can groping be accidental? Sure. Can you accidentally grope and not be aware? Sure. Can non-gropes be mistaken as gropes? Sure.

There's a whole lotta subjectivity in these grey areas, and it is definitely to the rightwing advantage to make hay out of such.

========

[oberliner]

240. That's a fair response

Personally, I wish he had specifically addressed the accusation itself (i.e. that he grabbed their buttocks) but I understand that making a statement like this is not easy.

[njhoneybadger]

303. Yes, that's the deal

I don't see why that seems unreasonable to some people.

[Butterflylady]

232. Where is that trash button?

[YOHABLO]

235. Okay it's wrong to grab anyone. But in no way is there any equivalency to his actions and that of

Roy Moore.

[oberliner]

239. 100 percent agree

They are not even in the same universe.

[yardwork]

243. Why don't you work to get out the vote for Doug Jones, then?

Like, why not post some positive things about Doug Jones instead of all these negative threads about Democrats?

[oberliner]

250. No one on DU needs to be told to vote for Doug Jones

That's a no brainer. I have donated some money to his campaign and would encourage everyone to do likewise (if you can afford to do so).

Topics like this one about Al Franken, though, are more interesting since not everyone sees it the same way. Leads to a more robust discussion.

[steve2470]

257. really ? You donated money to Mr. Jones ?

My brother in FLORIDA is working actively for Doug Jones. My brother would NEVER post an OP like yours. Never. Ever.

Think about that. My brother is AS liberal as you are, if not MORE liberal. He's also a FEMINIST. Again, think about that.


Hm.

[oberliner]

271. Everyone is different

I honestly don't understand why it's so awful to have a discussion about this topic.

I am glad your brother is working actively for Doug Jones. I hope he wins, but I think he will lose.

[panader0]

249. 245 replies, 2 recs....... just sayin'..

[oberliner]

253. I've noticed that too

Not a popular POV to be sharing here, but still a worthwhile one, in my view.

[Kingofalldems]

256. I bet it would be extremely popular on republican sites.

[steve2470]

260. I'm sure the Republicans are cackling with glee over this OP

It has all the right boxes checked to survive on DU. We Dems don't need this BS. Accurate information, sure. Not this.

[Kingofalldems]

263. Yes, it's clever.

[oberliner]

269. Republicans don't care about our discussions on DU

I would hazard a guess as to say that 99.9 percent of Republicans don't know what DU is.

[steve2470]

272. Come on, you CANNOT be that naive

yea, we on DU are not going to start the next communist revolution SARCASM ALERT but they damn sure do care. If they can cause problems here, THEY WILL. Trust me, the Republicans who know anything about politics know about us.

Come on, you are not that naive. Or are you ?

[Kingofalldems]

290. No.

[oberliner]

291. Have you ever encountered anyone in real life who has heard of Democratic Underground?

Be honest.

[steve2470]

295. BS.... you are good at this, kudos nt

[Kingofalldems]

288. The Cave does. Ever heard of it?

[steve2470]

292. you've been here X years and you still say that ?

I call BS.

[steve2470]

294. Member since: Thu Jul 20, 2006, 12:36 PM

So you've been here OVER 11 years and you still think Republicans don't know about us ?

BS. They know all about us. Your Republican next door neighbor probably doesn't, but the informed ones DO know.

BS BS BS.

[brooklynite]

346. Here's a thought: most Democrats don't know about DU either...

I have regular discussions with major Party leaders, DNC members, elected officials and candidates. With the exceptions of a handful who troll for contributions, DU is never a source of opinion to be considered or an outlet for Democratic messages to be conveyed.

[steve2470]

360. here's a thought, I don't care for your tone

Later.

[brooklynite]

362. The truth is sometimes unpleasant

DU is a great place for. (generally) like-minded people to talk about politics. That’s as far as it goes.

[L. Coyote]

251. Neither has the Pope, leaving the door open .... what bullshit.

It also leaves the door open to his being an alien from Mars, which he likewise has not denied.

[heaven05]

252. your OP

is very confusing, while I see moore, trump and the rest of the RW macho men getting a pass from you, they have not uttered a whisper of an apology. I call BS on this OP.

[steve2470]

255. yep you nailed it good sir

Always interesting to see people ONLY bashing Dems and being silent on the Republicans. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Interesting.

[Fozzledick]

258. Gambit declined - not taking the bait.

[oberliner]

262. Thank you for sharing your perspective

It is fascinating.

[heaven05]

266. you are welcome

yours while obvious, is not so much so. You have a good one

[Tatiana]

274. You seem particularly affected by this topic.

I'm not on DU that often, but I notice you have posted several times about this topic and seem to have formed a negative opinion of Senator Franken. Your comments seem very personal.

Victims should be supported, but we still have to ensure we have the facts and are objective. There is a timeline that illustrates the orchestration of this story -- it was revealed and pushed across media platforms with support from Russian bots. It is obvious that Franken was targeted and the motive is to try to force him to resign.

With respect to the accusations, Franken has indicated he wants an ethics investigation. It doesn't matter what he says or doesn't say, his actions and the respect with which he has thus far treated his accusers speaks volumes. His action in welcoming an investigation speaks volumes. These actions are inconsistent with a sexual harasser and a serial groper.

What Russia does is they take our strengths, our values, our beliefs and they use them against us. This is the perfect example.

[steve2470]

275. nailed it nt

[nocalflea]

284. +1. Thanks for speaking my mind.

[oberliner]

286. I do not have a negative opinion of Senator Franken

As I wrote to another poster on this thread:

I am a person who supports everything Franken supports. He has been one of the best of the best in terms of Democrats in the senate. I have never disagreed with him really about anything policy-wise ever. I also think he is a funny and likable sort of guy.

All that being said, I do think that it is worth at least entertaining the possibility that he did touch women's rear ends without their consent. And if he did do that, it should be OK to say that we find such behavior to be objectionable.

[steve2470]

289. BS

All I'm going to say to this.

[oberliner]

299. What's your alternate theory?

Feel free to speak honestly and openly.

[steve2470]

302. oh, good attempt at baiting me

BS. It's obvious. To me and most on DU.

Please proceed. The Russians and Republicans really love you right now.

[oberliner]

312. You can send it to me in a PM if you'd rather do that

I am genuinely interested in hearing your theory. Especially as it appears to involves Russians and Republicans!

[steve2470]

314. no thanks

I don't engage in substantive dialogue with someone who is obviously not a Democrat or one of our supporters.

You're really good at this. Kudos.

Oh yea, let me go search the BOG for your posts.......

eta: No posts at all in over 6 years. Ok, you're not a big fan of President Obama. Hm.

[Tatiana]

305. Your posts on this topic do not support that assertion.

Your posts all seem to be geared towards convincing others that Franken exhibits deviant or objectionable behavior towards women.

Your posts don't contend that there is a "possibility" the accusations are true. You are conveying a sense of likelihood. With your words you are helping the forces that want to take out a strong Senator who has defended the rights of women and the safety and security of this country. He was one of the only Senators, by the way, who saw though and nailed Sessions "Awww, shucks, I had nothin' to do with Russia..." act. The truth will come out in the ethics investigation.

Maybe I'm wrong -- but it feels like you may have experienced something similar and if so, I am very sorry. But that's no excuse for giving aid and comfort to our enemies that seek to destroy our nation from within.

I say this with all due respect as a woman who has experienced sexual harassment.

[oberliner]

316. The reaction from DU to this story is mystifying to me

With respect to Franken, I have always liked him. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine.

In terms of what is going on now, it seems like Franken himself is acknowledging that he behaved inappropriately (he said that he "crossed a line" ), and yet still some on DU are not accepting that as a possibility (and instead blame Russians and whatnot).

Again, it seems like, on a discussion forum, we should be able to have this discussion without howls of protest and claims of trolls and Russians.

I mean there are articles about this in Vanity Fair, Newsweek, Washington Post - these are not right-wing conspiracy sources.

[steve2470]

318. It's not a hard news story, it's an opinion article

No one is endorsing ass grabbing or ass patting or ass touching etc. It's just not worth discussing at this point, unless more women go on the public record with Senator Franken's nefarious deeds!

Net neutrality? Now you have my full attention and then some.

In case you have not noticed, this has been a PARTISAN discussion forum since 2001. Skinner and EarlG have been decent enough to allow a wide range of opinions, but eventually they put the banhammer down on people abusing that privilege.

Hm.

[steve2470]

285. Skinner and Earl, you two studying this ?

Hm.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

293. I think we should all give Andy Kauffman a round of applause.

Beats the wrestling schtick he did years back by a mile!@

[SonofDonald]

297. You must have a fixation on Franken

Otherwise why on earth are there NINE postings of this same exact post from you going at one time?.

Almost as bad as the endless bow flex commercials on tv.

[oberliner]

301. There are not nine postings of this same exact post from me going at one time

Why would you make up such a thing?

[Kingofalldems]

304. Here a a few OPs about Franken:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141920766

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029865792

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029864792

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141915573

[oberliner]

307. Pretty sure that is not nine

I think there are two others than can tangentially be said to be related to this topic.

[Kingofalldems]

315. Countless posts though.

Also I didn't count the OP that was removed.

[oberliner]

330. Even counting the post that was removed, it's still not 9

And the countless posts I have made have been in an attempt to respond to what I have found to be a mystifying reaction from most of DU with respect to this story.

[Kingofalldems]

332. Point to me where I said it was 9?

And the second part of your response I don't believe for one second.

[SonofDonald]

339. I didn't make up anything

I'm on a phone, as I scroll down there were NINE of this exact post on the page I'm looking at.

I just didn't realize that it's the same one being updated due to replies as I've not seen that before.

But then again right after the last update there was a post about how he still hadn't admitted to picking his nose either.

But it's ok, I don't mind, really, I don't.

[BootinUp]

300. Just trying for post#300.

[oberliner]

308. If more people actually engaged with the content of the article

It would make for a much more interesting discussion.

[BootinUp]

313. Maybe if it was half decent journalism. Nt

[MFM008]

309. Here is me

Still believing it's a Bannon/ Stone GOP hit job..........

[steve2470]

310. yep nt

[Mr. Ected]

320. In the court of public opinion, based on the evidence presented to us, the jury

I find Al Franken "not guilty" of the crime of sexual battery.

Proffer by plaintiff(s) insufficient to meet their burden of proof. Defendant's counsel adequately raised substantive doubt as to the motivations and probity of the accusers. Gravity of the alleged crime was tenuous at best; in the context of the news, this is another example of false equivalency.

[brooklynite]

325. Bearing in mind, they let the entire adult population of MN render the final verdict

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

333. Of which I am one.

And I don't know a single soul here who isn't behind Al 100%.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

336. After this thread we are all Dadists now! n/m

[ananda]

350. It probably has to do with legal advice.

As far as I'm concerned, he is not guilty of anything
worse than extremely bad taste and poor judgment.

He is nowhere close to a criminal pedophile and/or
sex abuser as many Reeps are (who are still walking
scot free and even living in the White House sometimes
when not playing golf.

[Chasstev365]

352. You just keep pushing this, don't you?

[ollie10]

357. And I haven't denied being Mr Universe!

Doesn't mean I am....

[Squinch]

365. I've defended the OP from such accusations in the past. I think I'll stop doing that.

[DFW]

364. The Fix?

That is (or was) the WaPo's little corner of and for the right wing run by Republican hack, Chris Cilizza. Fox Noise by any other name. It is fixed, alright--fixed in one direction, and that is to the right.

This is just more "stop looking at Roy Moore" intentionally timed piece of Republican target shooting that will die down after the Alabama election and slink back down the dank drainpipe from whence it rose.

[JustAnotherGen]

370. The two

Anonymous accusers who allege this happened might not be authentic.

[dubyadiprecession]

380. It started with Roy Moore's problem to take our national attention away from gun control to groping.

[BoneyardDem]

381. 381 posts and 4 recs

Seems about right

[marble falls]

384. He hasn't denied kidnapping Judge Crater, either.

[Lil Missy]

385. This is called stirring shit