Regulate the buying and selling of ammunition

[Politicub]

We have to show an ID to buy Sudafed, but the theater shooter is able to get thousands of rounds of ammunition and no one bats an eye.

Something is wrong here. There is no one who needs that much ammunition unless they're waging a war.

I don't believe right to bear arms includes the right to unlimited stocks of ammunition. It's time to bring the abuse of the second amendment under control. And limiting the amount of ammunition people can own and purchase in a year is a reasonable proposition.

At some point the majority of Americans are going to say "enough," and persuade their representatives to pass an amendment banning handguns. And then everyone will lose the right because of the absolutists who won't accept any sensible gun control laws.
----
I wrote the above in reply to another thread. It's true that mass murders in a movie theater are rare, but mass shootings (Virginia Tech, the people gathered to hear Gabby Giffords speaking) seem to be turning into an epidemic.

[PoliticAverse]

1. How many rounds do you think the shotter actually used ? n/t

[Politicub]

2. Enough to shoot 70+ people

Do you disagree with limiting access to ammunition?

And if you do, why?

[rl6214]

5. So you think gun owners should be limited to less than 70 rounds?

A box of ammo is generally 20-100 rounds. Should it be limited to say 10, 20, 50?

[Politicub]

6. Not sure - how much does someone need?

You tell me.

[4th law of robotics]

8. Ever been to a gun range?

You can go through a hundred rounds in a remarkably short period of time.

[Politicub]

9. Then buy the ammo there and use it up

You still get to enjoy firing your weapon.

[4th law of robotics]

10. So no one gets to have any ammo at home?

Making firearms useless in self-defense except as kind of a clumsy club.

[Politicub]

16. That's your idea. I didn't suggest banning ammo at home

and I do believe people have the right to carry a concealed weapon once licensed to do so.

But just for the record, do you support any kind of sensible gun control laws? If you're an absolutist, just say so. And if not, what are some reasonable restrictions around weapons that you support or would support?

[rl6214]

20. So you say people have a right to carry a concealed weapon

I have a CCL and carry regularly. My handgun holds 15 rounds. 15 rounds plus one spare mag=30 rounds. If you have a .22 for target practice the normal box of ammo is somewhere between 325-500 rounds. You have two boxes you are up to 1000 rounds which many would label a gun nut.

[Politicub]

25. Correct.

How many bullets do you fire off in a day? Or, need to fire off on a typical day?

I haven't called anyone a gun nut. Those are your words, not mine.

[Trunk Monkey]

57. I promise you ammunition sales and prices are going to go up

because of this shooting.

Don't I have a right to buy now while it's (relatively) cheap and plentiful?

FWIW I have well over 10K rounds right now

[4th law of robotics]

74. You said they could only buy it at the range

and use it there.

Which would imply no ammo elsewhere.

Is that not what you said?

/yes I support sensible gun laws. Which we currently have in most of the country.

[Politicub]

78. Nope. Didn't say that. Read the OP.

But I have to say the amount of outright distortion of what I said is breathtaking - this thread is full of it. Do you realize that's what you're doing?

Regulating the sale and purchase of ammo isnt a ban. It's what's needed to slow the flood of cheap ammo being stockpiled by people for no good reason. And just because you "want to" hoard bullets isn't a good reason.

[4th law of robotics]

80. You said

buy ammo at the range and use it there.

Did you not?

[Politicub]

81. What is your point? Yes, under my idea, you could buy

ammo at the same places you buy it now by showing your ID and buying a limited amount for keeping at home or to go hunting. And if you wanted to go the the gun range and shoot your gun all day, you can get ammo there to do it.

People who want to hoard massive quantities of ammo under my proposal wouldn't like it, but life isn't just about them.

Do you have any ideas, or are you satisfied with the status quo?

If you are here to discuss solutions to the problem of unemcumbered gun and ammo access, then I'm happy to continue debating you. But if you've already made up your mind, please let me know so I don't waste my time.

[4th law of robotics]

82. How many bullets would you "allow" people to keep at home?

And how often could they buy more?

[Politicub]

86. Why don't you answer my first question? Have you made up your mind about the gun issue?

Own your position. Don't run from it.

If you support the absolutist position that people should be able to buy unlimited numbers of weapons and rounds of ammo, then say so. What's so hard about that?

It's a waste of time discussing this issue with you if the only thing that you do is ask hypothetical questions.

[4th law of robotics]

95. The problem isn't with the guns

current gun laws are fine. I've never indicated in any way that I am an "absolutist". Have I argued for machine guns or grenade launchers?

The issue is one of mental health. We don't address it well in this country. If we did everyone could be well armed and we'd have very little such crime (like in Switzerland).

[Zalatix]

94. "So no one gets to have any ammo at home?" That was not what the OP said.

I don't believe right to bear arms includes the right to unlimited stocks of ammunition. It's time to bring the abuse of the second amendment under control. And limiting the amount of ammunition people can own and purchase in a year is a reasonable proposition.

I'm not seeing where this means "you can't have any ammo at home".

[riverbendviewgal]

76. That is a great idea.

quite simple and all are happy..

[safeinOhio]

21. Lots of gun ranges in Switzerland and a lot

of target shooter. Ammunition is registered there. Low gun crime rate. Seems to be working just fine.

[Politicub]

26. Proof of concept!

Didn't know that.

[ethereal1]

43. They not only require you to register ammo, they REQUIRE you own a gun... OOPS!

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (German for "recruit school&quot , the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home. Up until October 2007, a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.[4] The ammunition was intended for use while traveling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

[Politicub]

51. Cool info

Thanks for posting the link!

It builds on the argument that regulating ammo makes a positive difference, and people can still own guns and go to the shooting range all they want.

[Hoyt]

53. But, it's all but illegal to carry them in public, and there aren't a lot of Holmes there.

[ileus]

75. When the family and I go out we shoot 250-500

rounds....may shoot twice in a weekend sometimes. So every second or third weekend we need 500-1000 rounds.

We're waiting now for it to cool down some before we head out and burn a few hundred. My wife has finally discovered the fun there is to be had in target shooting. My kids are turning into great shots and even my daughter shot the pistols last trip. (before that she didn't like the louder firearms)

[DainBramaged]

79. Just enough to fish with, say troll for trolls....

[NYC_SKP]

3. The Sudafed ban is insane.

So sure doesn't lend any positive weight to other banning arguments.

[Politicub]

11. I was using an example of something that you need to show an ID to buy

But point taken.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

4. Something Like This?

[RC]

37. Chris has got some good points there.

Taxing the hell out of ammunition would work too and give the government some money to work with to get a jobs program going.

[4th law of robotics]

7. He didn't use thousands of rounds

limiting him to a hundred (a short day at the range) would have accomplished exactly nothing.

[Politicub]

13. He owned thousands

Don't you think someone should have looked into why this guy was stockpiling so much ammo?

[Peepsite]

33. A shooter

Can go thru 1,000 rounds in an afternoon at the range fairly easily,even w/ 8 or 10 seconds between shots. If some owns multiple guns ,the amounts of ammo one can go through in a month just practicing marksmanship, probably seem horrifying to the non-gun people.

[loli phabay]

35. 1000 rounds easily and if there are more than one shooting it goes way up

[Politicub]

54. He could by his ammo at the gun range

Like they do in Switzerland.

[loli phabay]

56. what if like me you shoot on your own range.

[Politicub]

72. It's not all about you

It's about everyone. No one needs massive amounts ammo.

[Politicub]

88. I don't really care n/t

[Peepsite]

60. And if..

The range is on his own land, farm etc? Not everyone In this country lives in an ultra-densely populated area, many of us have space to shoot in. One problem as I see it, is the availability of high capacity ( 30, 60, 100rnd) magazines that give the shooter the video-game-like ability of never having to reload.

[obamanut2012]

68. Where it costs twice as much

And where you also have to pay a lane fee and buy targets. When I can buy 500 rds. of cheapish FMJ at the local dealer or a gun show and spend an afternoon target shooting on my own land. Ridiculous.

I personally don't give a damn if they stopped internet ammo sales, but tracking how much ammo a citizen buys is ridiculous.

Swiss women didn't get the vote until the early 70's, btw.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

63. Whenever I hear about a big drug bust....

They always conclude it with, "Police also found several weapons and several hundred rounds of ammunition in the house" and I think, "crap, that could be MY basement"

[4th law of robotics]

73. A thousand rounds isn't that much

in reality.

[Politicalboi]

12. Good idea

Shooting ranges could sell the bullets to be used there. Maybe only be able to have 50 rounds per home. Hell even Barney Fife had a bullet in his pocket. LOL!

[Politicub]

14. And deregulate what's pictured in your avatar

On that we can agree.

[eridani]

15. That could be even more fine tuned

Exempt types of ammunition typically used in hunting, BBs, etc. Who hunts with an AR-15? If they did, would there be anything left to eat?

[Politicub]

18. Completely agree...

Almost. Would still require an ID to buy it.

[former9thward]

19. The AR-15 operates like any other hunting rifle.

One bullet per trigger pull. And there is plenty to eat for those who like to do that type of thing.

[safeinOhio]

22. I've hunted all of my life and never

fired more than 3 shots at a game animal. 98% of the time it's one. The times I did shoot 3 times, it was a bird and used a shotgun, not a 223.

[former9thward]

27. The poster I was replying to seemed to think the AR-15 operated differently than other rifles.

It does not. Again it is one bullet for one trigger pull. I am not suggesting a AR-15 is the best hunting rifle but it is not an automatic as the poster was implying.

[eridani]

28. I was talking about the kind of ammunition required, not how the gun operates n/t

[former9thward]

30. You said there would be nothing left to eat.

Why would the AR-15 ammo make any difference in that?

[eridani]

31. The animal getting ripped up by hundreds of bullets?

If a hunter didn't want to do that, why the AR-15?

[JeepJK556]

41. I don't think you understand how an AR-15 works...

They're semi-automatic. Which means they only fire one round at a time. The ammo has no effect on the rate of fire.

If a hunter ended up with an animal with hundreds of bullets in it, it would be because he sat there and pulled the trigger hundreds of times. Which could be done with any gun.

AR rifles are popular because of the fact that are extremely accurate, reliable, and customizable. Every component can be swapped out for something different, which means you can custom build yourself the perfect rifle for your needs.

[safeinOhio]

44. If you need more than 3 bullets to kill a deer,

you might think about taking up fishing.

[JeepJK556]

71. I don't hunt

Never have.

I do fish.

I also shoot in some target competitions that would require a semi-auto rifle.

Which is why I have one.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Most popular rifle in the US and the .223 Remington is a good round for smaller game.

A bit light for deer but it can be done.

7.62*39 is a great deer cartridge. It is also used in the AK-47
7.62*51 is a great hunting round. It is also used in M-60 machine guns and other 30 caliber military rifles

There is extensive "dual use"

[eridani]

47. If there's a lot of dual use, does the kind of ammunition make ANY difference at all? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

65. Same round will have about the same effect from most of the weapons it is fired from

You would get a bit more energy from a bolt action and twist rate also matters in some cases.

Some in this thread, including the lunatic OP got hot and bothered about the 5.56/.233 round, and posted nonfactual nonsense. They were rightly hammered for it

There are tremendous differences between the effect of different sized/types of ammunition. Its a serious case of "size matters".

[eridani]

67. So, if there are to be taxed and untaxed rounds--

--where would you set the limit?

[obamanut2012]

69. If it's a .223 AR-15, yes

Most states don't allow such small calibers to be used for hunting. That's what's known as a "varmint" round. You can kill rabbits and birds with it, but not something like a deer. In a human, that round is often NOT a killing shot, except for point-blank shots, especially to the head.

You do understand that the ammo used in the AR-15 in Colorado is ammo used for plinking cans and shooting small animals, the ammo you think should be exempt from bans. Anything over .50 caliber is illegal anyway. Your issue should be with high-capacity "drums."

I do not hunt and have no desire to. I own guns, I have a CCW, and I have no problem I had to have a NICS and mental health check before I could own either. I do think there is a lot of confusion about what an AR-15 is, what .223 means, and that semi automatics are not only the norm in firearms, but have been for a very, very long time.

And, as I've stated on here several times the past day, many liberals are gun owners, many hold CCW permits, and not all gun owners are "gun nuts." Not even GOP ones.

[sav99]

70. An AR 15 fires

a 5.56 mm round. Too light of a caliber to hunt large game with. .223 is not a high powered cartridge. The media leads you to believe that it is, but it's not true.

It's a fine round for coyotes, small pigs, etc. and technically It can be used on deer sized game but in reality, it's not powerful enough. So to your question "Who hunts with an AR-15? If they did, would there be anything left to eat?" there would be if you ever found the animal.

[ileus]

17. I'm not waging a war.

Yet I have thousands of rounds of ammo.

[safeinOhio]

24. Anything worth doing is

worth over doing.

[loli phabay]

36. all i got to say is zombie invasion

[Johnny Rico]

23. I have over 30,000 rounds of ammo.

But then, that's only a few hundred rounds for each gun...hardly excessive.

Just how many rounds do you believe the government should allow me to own?

[Politicub]

29. Not that many

I'm curious, though. How much space does 30,000 bullets take up?

[Johnny Rico]

32. They fill a closet.

Not that many

Ok, give me a specific number. How much of my property (ammo, in this case) do you think the government should confiscate?

[Politicub]

39. Confiscation is different than regulating commerce of ammo

And you are trying to change the subject.

Let's stay on point - this thread is about regulating the buying and selling of ammo. Pros and cons.

[AndyTiedye]

40. If You Ever Have a Fire, That Closet Might be a Scary Place With All That Ammo

Be sure to tell the firefighters about your ammunition cache if that ever happens. I hope it never does.

[Peepsite]

77. Errr do you actually know how bullets work?

They need a chamber and a barrel so that the hot gas produced by the exploding powder can accelerate the bullet to lethal velocities. Loose ammo in a fire isn't all that dangerous. (except in Hollywood)

[Egalitarian Thug]

83. It will explode. not sure what your point is here. n/t

[Peepsite]

91. It may, but the bullet(the heavy part) won't travel but a few feet. The casing(the lightweight part)

May travel a few more,but not with the velocity necessary to kill anyone.

[Egalitarian Thug]

97. I think you are underestimating the resulting force, but you are essentially correct in the case of

a few rounds. OTOH, the 30,000 rounds listed in the original reply would go off like a medium sized bomb or a really big fragmentation grenade.

[JeepJK556]

34. I currently have about 3,000 rounds total

For my three guns that I own.

A little over 2,000 for my Glock 19 (Some factory ammo, some reloads, some are still the components that I have to get around to loading)

About 500 for the AR

About 500 for my Ruger LCP

A typical trip to the range with the Glock (which for me is usually every or every other weekend) will have me using about 250 rounds.

Usually I shoot about 150 or so each time I take the AR out.

I'd like to have more and shoot more but alas not enough $$$$$.

[Politicub]

42. Uhm, okay. What does that have to do with regulating the buying and selling of ammunition?

[Marengo]

92. Because in your OP you stated "And limiting the amount of ammunition people can own and purchase..."

Yet you have not specified how many rounds of ammunition you believe people should be allowed to own. So we're all left to guess what this number is and how you justify it.

[sadbear]

45. The manufacturers and gun shops would LOVE that

Yep, they absolutely LOVE it when their customers think they won't be able to buy something in the future. Hell, what we need to do is only threaten some regulations and then TAX THE FUCK out of gun and ammo sales.

[sadbear]

48. I bet sales went through the roof during that recent zombie scare.

Gun shop owners love zombies, too.

[Politicub]

50. Don't torches make zombies retreat?

I think they do!

[sadbear]

52. Shhh!

You're hurting the gun sales.

[loli phabay]

58. i think you are marked as expendable and got the expendable info pack

does it have a picture of a smiling zombie on the front, if so you need to relearn your zombie tactics.

[Trunk Monkey]

59. The day after Carolyn McCarthy introduced legislation to regulate

magazine capacity you couldn't find a 30 round glock magazine anywhere on line.

IOW all this kind of talk does is drive gun/ammunition/ magazine sales

[sadbear]

61. You bet your ass it does.

Sometimes I get the feeling all this talk about regulation and suppressing the 2nd Amendment is manufactured by the NRA.

[Zanzoobar]

46. It's kinda like drugs.

Every part of a round can be manufactured at home with simple tools.

Lead is easily obtained
Google homemade gunpowder
Google homemade gun casings
Google homemade guns
It is not difficult to manufacture a reliable semi-auto with a little know-how and a few tools.

Prohibition is not the answer.

A gun is basically a pipe with an explosive charge and a projectile. Regulate them all you want. The result will be identical to the war on drugs. Everyone who seriously considers this problem knows it.

On edit. It is exactly like the war on drugs.

[Politicub]

49. Who said anything about prohibition?

Regulation isn't prohibition.

Regulation of the ammo market is a reasonable idea.

[sadbear]

55. I wonder how many 2nd Amendment Absolutists agree with reasonable drug regulations.

[Johnny Rico]

66. I'm something of a 2nd Amendment Absolutist, and I disagree totally with the War On Drugs.

Legalize it all.

[Logical]

62. "At some point the majority of Americans are going to say "enough,"....

People say that about EVERY shooting! Get real.

[B Calm]

64. This is the kind of reaction the NRA wants!

The NRA will get a lot of donations!

[Egalitarian Thug]

84. By all means, let's create another black market it's worked so well thus far. n/t

[sadbear]

85. This is probably something the prison industrial complex can get behind

once marijuana is decriminalized. (I might be able to support it, too.)

[Egalitarian Thug]

90. It would be a boon for them, but I still don't think it's a good idea. n/t

[Politicub]

87. People would still be able to buy guns and ammo. What's the point of a black market?

Ammo sales will be regulated, which means you can still buy it. The two issues aren't related to one another.

It will be harder to hide the fact that you stockpile ammo, though.

[Egalitarian Thug]

89. They certainly are related. We have got to get this through our thick skulls, people are going to do

what they want to do and the best you can hope for is to temporarily make it more difficult and expensive. Prohibition does not work, never has, never will.

You know that California has some fairly innocuous regulation of ammunition sales? Well guess what, all they did was ship a ton of money out of state, most of it to Arizona. There are just as many secret, private ammo dumps in Orange County as there are in ID.

You can't fight the tide, it's foolish to try. Instead of pushing a course that, even in the unlikely chance that it is implemented, will not achieve the results you desire, how about calling for something that hasn't failed every time it's tried? Crazy people can be helped, but we have to provide the resources to the helpers and make it easy to seek it out for those that might need it.

[Politicub]

93. I'm not suggesting prohibition. Maybe you meant to reply to someone else?

I'm for regulating the buying and selling of ammo -not prohibiting it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

96. Nope. Pointing out that this has been tried and failed. You're right that it is not a prohibition

so much as a restriction, but my point is that it has been done and it doesn't work.

The people that want an arsenal and enough ammunition to fight a war will get it regardless of the rules you pass. If those rules make it impossible, or merely objectionable, they will turn to whomever is willing to sell them what they want and that's a black market. Now you're putting money directly into the hands of the last people you want to have a large supply of money.