Al Franken's Saturday Night Live era was full of jokes disparaging women

[oberliner]

The photo that emerged last week of the senior senator from Minnesota pawing the breasts of a sleeping woman was heinous, but it wasn’t unfamiliar. Nor was the mugging grin on Al Franken’s face as he grabbed her, or his initial response that he was trying to be funny. Sexist jokes have long been considered acceptable in American culture — and not only acceptable, but funny, in a way that a certain sketch comedy show perfected.

Franken is, after all, not only a politician, but a creator of “Saturday Night Live.” He was one of the show’s first writers in 1975, and was a producer from 1985 until 1995. While there, he reportedly once pitched a skit about “60 Minutes” correspondent Andy Rooney drugging and raping Lesley Stahl. Perhaps it’s not surprising that someone who thought that rape could be appropriate material for a network TV joke also thought it would be funny to sexually assault a colleague on a USO tour, eyebrows raised, smile wide. More to the point, though, that sort of base humor is in the very DNA of SNL, where frat-boy bluster and aggressive male sexuality have been enshrined for more than four decades.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/20/al-frankens-saturday-night-live-era-was-full-of-jokes-disparaging-women/?utm_term=.7658e01bfce6

About the author:

Allison Yarrow is an award-winning journalist, author, and producer whose work has appeared in The New York Times, Newsweek, Vice, NBC News, CNN and many others. She is the author of 90s Bitch: Media, Culture, and The Failed Promise of Gender Equality (Harper Perennial, June 2018), a cultural history of how the decade's narratives about women shaped girlhood.

[whathehell]

1. One of the big reasons I rarely watched them..

[DiverDave]

2. Nice try

This is most certainly staged to smear him.
As more evidence comes out, you and yours grasp at straws.

Wont work on me.

[whathehell]

23. Um, maybe not..I support Franken and do NOT think he should step down

That said, I'm WELL aware of the sexism running through SNL throughout most of it's history.
It's just a thought, but maybe you should "try" to understand that one position doesn't invalidate another.

[Kingofalldems]

71. Good post.

[oberliner]

78. This article is about misogyny on SNL (and Franken admittedly contributed to that)

As Franken himself said, "I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive."

[snooper2]

157. SNL makes fun of everyone, Women, Men, Black, White, Mexican, Gay, Straight, Rapper, Country Singer

Do you find this funny?


Eddie Murphy in Whiteface -

[treestar]

196. Hadn't seen that one before

[RhodeIslandOne]

201. That's a classic!

I watched SNL when I was seven which was about when that skit aired. And I got it.

Although I did not know who Harry Reems was at the time.

[quickesst]

99. Headline satire

Senator Al Franken has committed Hari-Kiri to atone for writing crappy jokes decades ago.

The senator's critics released this statement upon hearing the news.

"NOT GOOD ENOUGH! HE SHOULD DO MORE!"

[tenderfoot]

114. The OP knows exactly what they're doing...

and isn't concerned at all with racism, sexism or misogyny.

The goal is to plant a seed of doubt and to disrupt. Plain and simple.

[oberliner]

115. This is preposterous

And goes to show the opposition one faces when one stands up to misogyny and sexism - even on a liberal board such as this one.

A board, I might add, that I have been a member of and contributor to for over 11 years.

[tenderfoot]

116. A very successful ruse

that hasn't fooled anyone.

[Demsrule86]

169. Attacking Franken for what is obviously a put up job is not defending anything...it is helping the

GOP and you should stop...you made your point...I suppose...not that I agree with you...now let it go.

[DiverDave]

229. No post count?

To "remind" us that you think you are important.
News flash, skippy, the women that work with SENATOR Frankin all came out and said he never acted that way around them. EVER.
So, when you screech like this, I question your motives.
Buh-bye, off to full ignore for you

[Hassin Bin Sober]

162. Bingo.

Out of the wood work and like a dog with a bone.

[Eliot Rosewater]

210. Jesus Christ ERA community theater full of disparaging misogyny

Jesus Christ ERA community theater full of disparaging misogyny

Therefore Jesus himself hated women.

Something like that.

Oh well, the slanderous article has been written. Off to the races THEY go.


Thank you for some common sense.

[greeny2323]

3. You are posting the shittiest anti-Franken threads on DU n/t

[rockfordfile]

29. I said something little similar about that poster.

[oberliner]

79. Franken himself has acknowledged the importance of what this article addresses

Namely the sexism and misogyny in comedy in general, and SNL, in particular.

His quote:

"I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive."

[Demsrule86]

170. you are simply using this to attack a Democrat...

[cwydro]

4. You really seem to want to get rid of one our best senators.

I don’t get it.

I do get this: he did NOT sexually assault anyone.

[oberliner]

73. I want to get rid of misogyny

And a culture where sexist "jokes" are tolerated.

[RhodeIslandOne]

138. Hmm, thats strange

Your usual take on most issues is that the left is overreacting in places like college campuses to free speech issues.

[MrsCoffee]

148. Interesting.

[pandr32]

171. Then why attack Franken specifically to address misogynous behavior?

Why not talk about a roomful of male senators deciding women's healthcare? Or that they are outnumbered in Congress?
Why not talk about how women pay more for necessary items while earning less in our retail marketplace?
Why not talk about how women are expected to wear heels and makeup in many offices and boardrooms?
Why not talk about how women are exploited in advertising?
Why not talk about how patriarchy is so entrenched in our world?
Why not talk about how brides are supposed to wear white?
Why not talk about how girls and boys are both socialized differently in general?
Why not talk about a culture that tends to be dismissive of women's accomplishments?
And on and on, but...
If you want to talk about sexist jokes why focus on Franken and SNL? They skewered all kinds of topics and people. You could bring up many comedians who have made a career of over-the-top sexism to make your point. Andrew Dice Clay, Bill Mayer, Daniel Tosh, and on and on. Al Franken isn't in their league at all.
Why stop there? How about the music industry? Toy manufacturers?
I hope by now I am making my point because I could go on with endless examples of sexism that are out there...daily.
Why pick on Senator Franken specifically?

[treestar]

197. Why not focus on what he has done in the Senate?

Or the political positions he has taken? At least part of the time.

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. Try harder...

[oberliner]

74. It's an article in the WaPo by a left-wing feminist

Attacking the culture of misogyny at SNL in the 70s.

Franken has readily admitted that he is ashamed of some of the jokes he wrote.

[Demsrule86]

173. And why does that have anything to do with anything...I don't care who she is...I am sick of

this.

[Jim Beard]

223. Say the term Feminazies in a roomfull of men these days and it will immediately

give the republicans a substantial majority vote.

[Demsrule86]

225. I am a feminist and this overkill especially with the the facebook woman who made such ridiculous

claims against Franken...rightie liar...is ridiculous. What happens when you accuse everyone of the same thing even though some actions are way worse like Moore's pedophilia...you end up normalizing the behavior. And yes some guys don't like women...I have read the men's rights posts...it cuts across politics. And one case mentioned on TV got to me yesterday, a man asked a co-worker to go out for a drink...I think it qualified as a date this was after work and no work involved...he made a move to kiss her at the end of the evening...she has now come forward and accused him of 'harassing' her which in my view was ridiculous. He was fired. I had a co-worker put his hands down my pants in an elevator and was told If I said anything, I would be fired. I found a new job...now that is sexual harassment. An extreme case granted but asking a coworker whom you have no power over for a drink is not. I am a woman who has a great husband and son. They are great people. I have experienced harassment when I had a hungry child to feed and could not lose my job until I had another one...experienced assault too...It happens. But the idea that all men are potential predators, and if a man asks a woman out then he is harassing her automatically is a bad road to go down. It will not end well for anyone.

[njhoneybadger]

6. " he reportedly once pitched a skit" WTF, sounds like something from Breitbart

[dsc]

16. to be fair he admits to having pitched said script

but that he was doing so as a joke (ie that he didn't really think such a skit should air)

[njhoneybadger]

26. Thanks, I stand corrected

[bigtree]

7. sure you care

...with this crap article.

[oberliner]

82. The article addresses sexism and misogyny in the male-dominated comedy-writing world of SNL then

It is important to recognize - as Franken himself has stated.

He has taken responsibility for writing jokes that he now considers offensive.

[bigtree]

191. lol

[Vinca]

8. Well, let's burn him at the stake then. Maybe we can add a few more comedians to the pyre, too.

[oberliner]

10. Or instead, let's celebrate the fact that we are finally evolving with respect to sexist jokes

and behavior in general.

What was acceptable during that previous era is no longer.

[LisaL]

14. And while we are celebrating, we apparently have to demand that people

who did these jokes over a decade ago when it was accepted, lose their jobs for it now? Is that it?

[whathehell]

31. No, that's not it

I support Al Franken and do NOT think he should lose his seat... That said, SNL had lots of sexism in it, and that's undeniable, in my opinion.

[TheFrenchRazor]

212. word; there sure are a lot of strawmen/women being tossed out here. nt

[Demit]

27. I like your optimism. But I don't think that's what is happening here.

Your flogging of anti-Al Franken stories notwithstanding.

Because Tweeden's story is falling apart. She claimed Al wrote a kiss into the script purely so he could kiss her. There's a video that has surfaced of a USO show in 2003, where he performs the very same skit with a different woman, and it has the very same "surprise" kiss in it:

Link to tweet

No wonder she doesn't want an investigation. No wonder Al Franken does.

[oberliner]

84. Left-wing Democrats are capable of telling offensive jokes

Franken himself has said as much:

"I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive."

We should be able to talk about the problematic sexism and misogyny of the male-dominated comedy world, and even Franken's role in it during his tenure at SNL without calling it a flogging.

There is a shift that needs to happen now - and it's long overdue.

[Demit]

103. Talk about the other males in the male-dominated comedy world, then.

There are plenty of examples. I used the word flogging in the sense that one flogs a story by constantly repeating or referring to it, the way you have chosen Al Franken as your only subject. So if your topic really is sexism & misogyny in comedy, it's time to get on with condemning other practitioners of it.

[pangaia]

111. +++++++++++++++++

[oberliner]

112. This article was in the Washington Post today

It seems worth sharing and discussing, at the very least.

[TheFrenchRazor]

215. i can't speak for the OP, but i have higher standards for dems; at the very least i'm certainly not

not going to give them a pass when they do something that we all would raise heck about if it was a repug.

[pangaia]

109. OK, OK.. we got it.

Now let's move on with other examples.

[George II]

214. He didn't say ALL of his jokes "were just plain offensive".

[Not Ruth]

9. The counterpoint to Jane was a memorable example

[oberliner]

13. Thanks for sharing this

Calling someone "an ignorant slut" was a big laugh line during that era.

In fact, it is one of the more famous SNL quotes of the period.

[hexola]

17. It was comedy - satire of a male news anchor

It was funny because it cast conservative news guys as uptight, closet misogynists...

Think Bill O'Reily...

It wasn't funny because it was a put down to Jane - it was funny because of what it said about Akroyds character.

[oberliner]

25. Bill O"Reily was not around then

This was in the era before Fox News.

Most news anchors in that period were not conservative, relatively speaking.

[cwydro]

34. Seriously?

Wow, do some research.

[Drahthaardogs]

43. She needs to watch Mad Men to understand the culture then

I guess.

Yes, it was a parody and a subtle if salient dig at male news anchors.

[oberliner]

66. Walter Cronkite was the archtype during that period

And he was a pretty liberal and progressive guy (again, relatively speaking).

[hexola]

40. I always took Weekend Update to be a parody of an network affiliate

Not a national news segment...

We only had 3 networks back then.

Maybe Bill O'Reily was a bad example - maybe more Ted Knight.

[LanternWaste]

48. At this point, I can only presume you're being willfully obtuse.

At this point, I can only presume you're being willfully obtuse.

I understand why.

[oberliner]

67. Thank you

I always appreciate your supportive comments.

[jberryhill]

52. It was a direct spoof of the "Point, Counterpoint" segment of 60 Minutes

...which indeed had a progression of Bill O'Reilly prototypes.

Recall this one from Airplane....

You are either ignorant of contemporary media, or pretending to be.

It was also done in Kentucky Fried Movie:

You might do well to learn something about Shana Alexander, and exactly what parts were being played there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shana_Alexander

[oberliner]

69. Thanks for sharing that

I appreciate the context provided.

[caraher]

135. The one example of Shana on 60 Minutes I could find

And of course, the "Counter Point"

[Hassin Bin Sober]

168. Yep. I still get a kick out of reading right winger commenters on YouTube....

.... saying how Archie Bunker was right.

They just don't get it.

[treestar]

199. I know - it is hard to believe a liberal

DUer would pretend not to get that. You'd have to have zero sense of humor not to get it.

[whathehell]

28. Yes, I always hated that line, finding it socially backward & hugely unfunny

As to SNL's sexism, to be completely fair, I have to hold the women who put up with it at least partially responsible..There should be a limit on what one will tolerate on the basis one's "career".

[cwydro]

33. I cannot believe you cannot see how that was aimed at ignorant men.

Jeez.

I usually agree with you, but dayum.

[hexola]

44. Exactly - that was the joke...

The woman is not the target of the joke - despite Jane being the target of the punch line delivery.

[cwydro]

46. I know, I laughed at the time.

Knowing men just like that.

[Bettie]

185. The joke is that

he has nothing of substance to argue, so he insults her and then goes on a diatribe about women.

As a teenager, I got that.

[whathehell]

130. I can't believe you think that:s an absolute Fact, rather than

an interpretation. .

[hexola]

35. In the context of the times...it was different.

The SNL women came to be seen as pioneers for women in comedy...in the context of the times - they probably felt like using language like that was groundbreaking.

[whathehell]

124. Hexola...I am "of" those times, and I can tell you that it wasn't

.unless, of course, I was just terribly ahead of my time and I don't think so, especially if we're talking about the '80s
By 1980', the modern Women's Movement, aka the 2nd Wave of Feminism, which kicked off in the late Sixties, had already been 'out snd proud' for more than ten years.

[jberryhill]

55. Which was a direct parody of existing media

On the real Point, Counterpoint, James Kilpatrick was endlessly condescending toward Shana Alexander.

[Not Ruth]

57. That was one level, but it was also an attack on women

It is always easier to get away with saying things by claiming that they were part of a joke.

[jberryhill]

62. You don't seem to understand that the "joke" was about conservative sexism

Again, the line was a commentary on the existing sexist condescension which regularly happened on "Point, Counterpoint".

Yes, a character playing the part of a sexist is going to say sexist things.

[RhodeIslandOne]

161. No one should ever bother explaining the joke

You either get it or you don’t.

[treestar]

198. Come on! That is clearly a parody of a misogynists

making fun of it, not actually promoting it!

[Loki Liesmith]

11. Oh god

[hexola]

12. All I remember is Pete Tagliani

Which is ironic...given the content in those bits

So this "once pitched" thing is supposed to typify his SNL work?

Franken got little camera time...

[Alenne]

15. Pawing and grabbing?

I stopped reading there. If the writer lies and exaggerates in the first 2 sentences nothing else they write can be trusted.

[Meowmee]

24. Yep

Unbelievable this was published and someone reposted it here. Below it says sexual assault also.

[spooky3]

60. Me too. When you begin with a false statement,

And anyone paying attention KNOWS it is false, you have no credibility, and readers can stop there.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

165. Me too. I stopped reading at grabbing. Bull shit.

[kstewart33]

18. Let's wait and see if further accusations emerge.

If Franken is truly an habitual harasser, his Senate career will and should be over.

However, so far, his mistakes don't compare with those of others who've lost their jobs. And the same with how he's handled the situation. Haven't heard anyone else request an investigation on themselves.

[Orrex]

19. And let's not forget that he deliberately wrote 1986's One More Saturday Night

[tymorial]

20. I need a break

I am seeing a lot of histrionic nonsense and I just can't deal with it anymore. I'm trashing too many threads and ignoring too many people just to get away from bile.

This site is just too disappointing lately.

[tblue37]

224. I think some of the high dudgeon we read and hear from our side is just virtue signaling. nt

[cwydro]

21. You really seem to have a problem with Franken.

I’m looking for similar posts from you regarding Roy Moore.

Oddly, I’ve not found any. Perhaps my search function is poor, but you are all over the place with Franken.

Why?

[oberliner]

86. That Roy Moore is a disgusting human being goes without saying

And I think it's important to call out misogyny from those on our side, since that seems to be hard for folks here to do.

If you want another "Roy Moore is awful" thread, let me know, and I can start one.

[Demsrule86]

193. You have had had how many OP's about Franken ? I have not seen one about Moore from you though.

[cwydro]

205. Me neither.

Something is very wrong here.

[Demsrule86]

227. Damn right... Franken is a good guy...and everyday...Tweeden looks more like a big liar.

She doesn't want to testify...well no surprise there...that would be perjury and she could end up in an orange jumpsuit.

[Demit]

22. He didn't "paw" Tweeden's breasts, nor did he "grab" them.

He pantomimed doing it. Pretty much the way Robin Williams did in his execrable "titties" routine at a USO show in 2004.

These deliberate mischaracterizations make me sick.

[cwydro]

30. Thank you. This is getting ridiculous.

OP has nothing to say about 45 or Moore.

Why so harsh against a Dem senator? Who did NOTHING like “pawing” or “groping”.

This is RW bs and it does not belong here.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

39. The Tweedenistas have constructed a complete alternate narrative in their minds

of the USO tour in question that apparent facts, motives, and even photographs cannot alter.

Almost like cult members, they blindly take up arms. (Perhaps something like the early Charles Manson, brought up in a hurtful world who constructed his own version of reality in response to a horrible childhood of abandonment and worse.)

But if you bring up the apparent inconsistencies, hypocrisy and political motivations, it's called slut-shaming. As far as I'm concerned she never has had sex outside of marriage. This is not about sex but about what seems to be a political hatchet job. But it does appear she's exaggerated or bent the truth to boost her political allies at the expense of a good man. And it's not fair to say it's okay to drag his name through the mud while failing to consider the source.

[oberliner]

90. Skip that paragraph then

The rest of the article addresses issues at SNL during the 1970s.

[Demit]

98. "Skip that part, Mrs Lincoln. How was the rest of your evening?"

[oberliner]

128. The author of the article could be off base on what she says in some of the piece

While at the same time making good points elsewhere.

[RhodeIslandOne]

183. She was "off base" on the easiest part of the Franken story to debunk

Doesn't give me much hope for the rest of it.

[Demit]

126. I finally read the rest of her hit job: "From Franken and Harvey Weinstein to Roger Ailes and

Bill O’Reilly, women are reckoning with the painful reality that powerful men recently accused of sexual misconduct have long been the media and cultural gatekeepers in America."

I'm sorry, lumping Al Franken in with serial rapists is unconscionable. Your author wasn't just addressing sexism issues at a comedy show in the 70s—which she admits have changed!—she wanted to establish in people's minds that Al Franken is on the same monster level as those other three pieces of shit.

Bad, bad choice of an essay, oberliner. No wonder you're getting the flak you're getting.

[oberliner]

129. The article is by a left-wing feminist author

I think she raises issues that are worth considering.

[Demit]

164. She is arguing dishonestly. Which does no credit to her thesis.

You should be more discerning in choosing which left-wing feminist authors to admire. This one—I'm not familiar with her other work, but she is definitely not writing honestly in this piece.

[still_one]

32. The OP seems to have a real problem that Franken isn't being crucified, and should be placed in the

same category with the Harvey Weinstein's and Roy Moore's.

This is NOT your first post about this.

Let's get right down to it. Are you accusing Al Franken of being a sexual predator?

Do you think Al Franken should resign?

You have posted quite recently how you view DU as only being critical of sexual improprieties if they are NOT Democrats, and that is a false statement.

Joe McCarthy would be really proud of what you are doing Oberliner, because you are trying to portray that Al Franken has a pattern of "inappropriate sexual behavior", and that is blatantly false.

As for as the opinion piece you post by Ms. Yarrow, she is using Al Franken as her punching boy for all the inappropriate sexual conduct that occurs, and that is extremely unfair, and unjustified.

Perhaps we should lock up all the writers who present material that is deemed objectionable?

In case you are unaware, Al Franken apologized for his inappropriate behavior in the picture. What more do you want?

There are things that bother me with the conversation going on at DU over the Al Franken issue. I am bothered by the victim blaming, but I also am bothered by those who are demanding that Al Franken resign over this, and/or going as far as to suggest this is equivalent to the behavior of Moore, Weinstein, etc.

[RandiFan1290]

37. OP also tried to push the tweet that said Heather Heyer's murderer

was a Hillary supporter.

Where are the admins?

[cwydro]

38. I agree. Why is this OP not posting about 45, or Moore?

The OP seems to really want to take down a Dem. Not that anyone will care what this OP thinks in the real world, but I do find the intent disturbing.

[oberliner]

87. He does not belong any near any category including those two people

But there is no reason why we can't have a discussion of sexism and misogyny involving those on our side.

Franken himself has addressed this problem:

"I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive."

[still_one]

95. I do appreciate the clarification. For better or worse, it seems that is all we are discussing

lately

[Demsrule86]

194. And why do we need to discuss this in the context of Franken...while giving the usual suspects a

pass...the groper in chief has made it permissible for employers to fire women for using contraceptives and to deny insurance coverage as well...and you want discuss Franken...sorry...It makes me sick.

[Drahthaardogs]

36. He didn't grab her in the photo

He feigned grabbing her.

There is a difference.

[beachbum bob]

41. its called comedy.....like wtf is that a new concept or is everything now suppose to be

all political correct pablum?

[bagelsforbreakfast]

45. It's as if Carrie Nation and Joe McCarthy had children and they're all

on DU attacking Al Franken.

[cwydro]

49. Lol.

Indeed.

[oberliner]

93. Or it's as if people feel strongly about sexism and misogyny

And even more so when it comes from the left.

As Franken himself said:

"I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive."

We should all be so enlightened.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

204. Or it's as if some people are really nostalgic for the McMartin era

"What about the children?"

[cwydro]

206. You seem to have a real problem with him.

I can’t help wondering why.

[oberliner]

91. White people mocking black people used to be called comedy

Until most people realized that was actually offensive.

[TheFrenchRazor]

213. so basic standards of right/wrong don't apply to "comedians?" really? sounds like a sweet gig, where

do i sign up?

[sagesnow]

42. Benny Hill comes to mind

reruns of this English show were popular on PBS in the 80s. As I recall Benny was a leering slimy guy trying to feel women up during the entire show. There are many other media examples of using women as objects at the time: look at the James Bond slut of the year women. The Playboy culture was rampant. This is not to excuse Franken, sexism was the rule in America at that time.

[Denzil_DC]

118. There's a whole TV series in the UK about this:

It Was Alright in the..., where they show celebrities nowadays clips from the 1970s and 1980s -

Crammed with jaw-dropping clips of 1970s television shows, this two-part series delves into the TV decade that taste forgot

- even from TV shows a lot more sophisticated and well regarded than anything Benny Hill ever put out, and have them react in real time.

The themes include casual racism, sexism, you name it. I imagine you could do the same for US TV shows (though I suspect UK ones have been a bit "edgier" over the years - many of the clips they show, I'm like "But quite a few of us didn't think this was alright even back then!" ).

It's quite interesting.

Franken appears to have moved on, and it's not really fair to single him out for this. But then nothing about this whole saga has been fair so far.

[Squinch]

47. I understand what you are saying, oberliner, I really do. And you're taking a lot of shit for it

which is unfortunate.

But two things bring me to a different conclusion than the one I think you have reached.

Yes he was piggish. I DO have a problem with that joke with Tweeden, regardless of who she is and regardless of the fact that he didn't touch her. And I understand your disgust with the report of the forced kiss, though he is denying it happened. I think we owe him as much benefit of the doubt as we owe her, especially since his body man says it didn't happen.

So my first thing is this: This kind of thing, as your OP shows, was considered humorous in past years. Yes, he engaged in that kind of humor. But I think his apology was sincere, and I believe him when he says that he is now disgusted by his own behavior. Many here are saying, "It was a joke! He never touched her! He didn't do anything wrong!" You and I both know the joke was wrong, but his apology makes it clear that he knows it too. That makes him valuable to us as a voice that says, "You aren't getting it. That JOKE was harassment. I did it, and I was wrong."

My second thing is this: The kiss is a "he said, she said" situation. What is the best scenario we can hope for when that happens, a scenario that respects the rights of both the accuser and the accused? I think it is this: the accused apologizes, treats the accuser with the utmost respect, and a hearing takes place in which both can freely state their cases. Once each presents their case, we will have more information on which to base an opinion on what we should push for going forward. Before we get that information, it would be a disservice to BOTH of them if we say, "he's wrong" or "she's wrong." I am gratified that Franken has himself called for the investigation. Now we let it take place and we go where it takes us. In the meantime, he stays where he is, because if he's driven out without a hearing, it's really just a witch hunt.

[LisaL]

50. What joke with the soldier?

If you are talking about the photograph, that's not a soldier. That's Tweeden in a flak jacket, and she is certainly not a soldier. Jeez.

[Squinch]

51. Yes. I will correct. Jeez.

[Drahthaardogs]

53. She lied about the kiss already. She says he "wrote" it in

Just to kiss her. The script including the kiss is on video from a USO show recorded 3 years earlier.


I'm sorry but her story falls apart.

[Squinch]

59. I suspect it will, but I won't be satisfied with internet rumors, nor will internet rumors clear

him. Bring on the investigation Franken requested, and let's be done with it.

[Squinch]

85. Oberliner is not a republican hack. You should self delete that or I will alert.

[Drahthaardogs]

94. Well she is posting editorials that contain blatant lies

That attack a Democrat.

So I guess I don't see wondering what the motive is (I said I am beginning to wonder) presents a problem.

So if you or she tell me why she posts an article with blatant lies that makes sense, I will delete

[Squinch]

140. You're calling her a troll. She is not one.

[DiverDave]

104. uh-huh

And I'm gonna tell mom on you.
"Or I'll alert"
This place is getting worse every day.
now, if I hurt your feelings, by all means, alert.
sheesh

[Squinch]

149. If you feel this place is "getting worse every day" you certainly have plenty of options.

He called her a troll, it's a violation of the TOS.

Deal with it.

[snooper2]

110. So did you alert?

inquiring minds want to know!

[Squinch]

143. No. I was going to come back and see if he had deleted. Apparently someone else alerted.

I guess I'm not the only one who doesn't like to see people called trolls because they disagree with the script.

[Demit]

68. I'm willing to bet an investigation never happens.

She knows that she has already made unrecoverable missteps in her allegations. A close examination of events, and statements under oath by people who were there, will embarrass her—and whoever egged her on to make a big deal out of this.

I suspect that Republicans will prefer to leave the allegations hanging. That they're hoping to leave it an open question in people's minds, rather than take the chance to resolve it in Al Franken's favor.

[Squinch]

81. That might happen too. It seems to me he is pressing for it for a reason.

If it does not happen, I would hope that a believable media source - which excludes twitter or facebook, where much of the (mis)information about this is coming from, by the way - picks up the story and summarizes those events and statements by people who were there.

[Demit]

107. Twitter is where the video showed up that refutes one element of her story.

The video of the 2003 skit is not misinformation. It's proof, no matter where it has appeared.

You can be skeptical of quotes by anonymous tweeters, like the photographer or the military escort, sure. Until they identify themselves by name, I am too. But the internet is great for unearthing photographic proof of things—like the photo of Tweeden absolutely *beaming* at Franken at some event subsequent to her supposedly horrible ordeal in the USO show in 2006. She had said in her statement that she gave him the cold shoulder ever after that terrible time. LOL, oops.

[Squinch]

139. Twitter is also where we got the fake tweet from the guy who claimed he was the

sleeping guy in the photo that turned out to be false. That one was shared here a few times.

[Demit]

159. Yes, pseudonymous tweets should be met with skepticism.

All of us should keep our bullshit meters in good working order at all times

[Squinch]

163. I agree, but the fact is we don't. So I don't pay attention unless it's from

a credible source that pays a price if they publish something that's patently false. The NYT or WP or Rachel or some such.

[Demit]

184. No, the fact is that *some of us* don't. Some of us are gullible, but not everyone.

Conversely, if you consider the NYT to always be an unassailable source of information, you'll let yourself fall prey to when they print innuendo & subtle character assassination pieces as "news" stories, such as the piece they did on the Clinton Foundation last year. It's well-known that they've had a vendetta against the Clintons since at least Whitewater times. And, omg, they certainly paid no price for Judith Miller's "reporting" regarding Iraq!

So be very wary of the NYT. Be wary of certain writers at the NYT. Opinion writers AND reporters. Read EVERYBODY critically.

[Squinch]

187. I never said that I consider the NYT to "always be an unassailable source of information."

I said that they pay a price if they publish something that is patently false.

Your admonitions are a bit condescending and certainly unnecessary.

[Demit]

188. Sorry I offended you. I'm sure you are right in your choice of credible sources.

Btw, I believe you can catch up with Judith Miller on Fox News.

[Squinch]

189. More condescension. Charming. Have a lovely day.

[Demit]

190. Thanks! You too.

[JustAnotherGen]

54. Wow

I've never seen you so quick to get rid of a man who has been accused of assaulting a woman, shooting an innocent teenage boy, or maliciously shooting a twelve year old little boy. Just, wow.

[cwydro]

56. Yes. Thank you.

OP is very quiet on a number of subjects.

But Al Franken has sure fired her up.

[oberliner]

76. I don't want to get rid of anyone

I want DU to come to the same understanding as Franken himself when he said:

"I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive."

Can we acknowledge the sexism and misogyny perpetuated by male comedy writers in the 1970s?

[brush]

117. OK, it's acknowledged. Now can we get back to 2017 where we all know this and have known it...

Last edited Mon Nov 20, 2017, 01:02 PM - Edit history (1)

for a while.

The horse is dead, for God's sake.

[JustAnotherGen]

146. Amen

I really don't have time for any nonsense about Senator Franken when Gianforte physically assaulted a member of the media, then mislead investigators - and still gets to keep his seat.

[Eliot Rosewater]

208. Pretty clear what is going on here.

Thank you for pointing this out, not that it will matter or change anything.

[Doremus]

58. OP what is your intent? This is little more than a hit piece and above the intelligence here

"Pawing the breasts"
"...grin as he grabbed her..."
etc
All lies


What is your intent with this? Do you think this editorial advances women's rights? Having a hard time reconciling the posting of this trash on this website.

[oberliner]

70. The author of the article in the OP is a left-wing feminist

For what that is worth.

[TheFrenchRazor]

211. does intent really matter? IMO, the only thing that matters is whether a statement is true or not.

the very fact that so many people are trying to change the subject to "intent" or political affiliation, or whatever, only shows that their argument wrt the sexism is weak.

[SharonClark]

61. The first two sentences of the post contains 3 lies.

"senior senator from Minnesota pawing the breasts of a sleeping woman was heinous, but it wasn’t unfamiliar. Nor was the mugging grin on Al Franken’s face as he grabbed her"...

He wasn't a Senator,, he was a comic on a juvenile sexist show, a show of its times
He wasn't pawing the breasts of a sleeping woman.
He didn't grab her.

Have you ever seen a USO show? Even the shows with Bob Hope were all leering and sexism and had to be cleaned up for TV.

[oberliner]

75. I did not write the article

I feel that the main takeaway - that SNL perpetuated misogyny and sexism in the 1970s and 80s - is a valid one.

Franken himself has said as much, with respect to feeling ashamed about some of the jokes he has written in the past.

[Demsrule86]

177. So an article with lies is OK...if the 'take away' is about something that happened years ago?

What is the point of this...

[Crunchy Frog]

63. You've really got it in for him don't you. n/t

[oberliner]

72. I've got it in for misogyny

And SNL during that period was reflective of that ugliness in America.

[Demsrule86]

179. Right and Franken apparently is your poster boy for misognyny...not Moore or Trump, O'Reilley

or Hannity...or the endless 'R' elected who voted to curtail women's rights...I don't care what your motives are ...you are helping the GOP with these posts and hurting Democrats.

[denverbill]

65. Welcome to Full Ignore.

[B2G]

77. This article is completely ridiculous.

SLN in the 70's and 80's was the edgiest, most progressive comedy out there. Female comics weren't even a thing until that show aired.

Allison is an idiot.

[oberliner]

88. Jane Curtain has spoken and written extensively about the sexism she faced at SNL

Throughout her tenure there.

[B2G]

92. I'll need to read up on that.

I hadn't heard.

I do however know that show did some tremendous things for the careers of the women who participated. It launched, and continues to launch many careers for women in the arena of comedy.

Yes, some of the skits might be deemed sexist by today's standard, but the writing and acting during that time was brilliant. And Franken was a huge part of that.

[oberliner]

102. Jane Curtin: "SNL Was A Misogynistic Environment"

Here's one article:

https://jezebel.com/5791390/jane-curtin-snl-was-a-misogynistic-environment

[WinkyDink]

220. I watched female comics in the 50s: "I Married Joan"; "The Goldbergs"; and, of course, "I Love

Lucy" with the legendary Lucille Ball. Not to mention the inimitable Imogene Coca on "Your Show of Shows."

In the 60s: the brilliant Elaine May and the "Everywoman" Phyllis Diller.

[B2G]

221. Yep, not saying there were none,

But SNL took them mainstream.

[WinkyDink]

228. There's a REASON Lucille Ball is an icon.

Extraordinarily popular female comics pre-dated "SNL" by decades. Carole Lombard. Judy Holliday.

The others I mentioned were ALSO as popular and mainstream as one could get.

I'm not denigrating the "SNL" cast as not funny or noteworthy.

[MFM008]

80. Democrats pile on

When admitted maggot supporters can pull a photo out and say I met Franken in pre- school.
Maybe he should brazen it out like the PUSSY GRABBER in chief.

[stonecutter357]

83. you seem very concerned ..

[oberliner]

89. The article addresses sexism and misogyny in the male-dominated comedy-writing world of SNL then

Seems like a topic DU-ers would be interested in, since sexism and misogyny are antithetical to everything we purport to stand for.

[stonecutter357]

141. #fakenews.

[nocalflea]

96. How provoking .

Luckily the OP has backup and from the first reply , no less. And the backup continues down the thread.

Nah, couldn't have been planned. Silly paranoid me.

[oberliner]

101. It is thought-provoking

I'm glad we are finally talking about the culture of sexism and misogyny that has dominated our society for so long, and recognizing that we are overdue for a change.

To quote Al Franken:

"I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive."

It's great that so many on our side are recognizing and addressing this.

[obamanut2012]

97. You keep busy

*yawn*

[oberliner]

100. Fighting sexism and misogyny is a passion of mine

Especially addressing it among people I otherwise admire and respect.

One of the admirable things about most liberals and progressives is that instead of denying (like Trump and Moore), they actually acknowledge and address these problematic comments and behaviors.

[OilemFirchen]

105. "in a way that a certain sketch comedy show perfected"

That's just stupid. Perhaps SNL gravitated toward sexist humor in her youth, but it was edgy, liberal satire in mine. I grew up watching Dean Martin specials and Laugh-In. I avoided Hee Haw, but perhaps she could Google any of the above and revisit this angry editorial car crash with a new perspective.

[Mike Nelson]

106. Not as bad as...

...Johnny Carson or "Hollywood Squares" - can't believe I laughed at some of that stuff...

[oberliner]

108. The rampant sexism and misogyny in comedy during the 1970s is grotesque

Good that we are finally (slowly) evolving to a place where we can all recognize that.

It seems like we, as a country, came to understand the problematic racism of that era quicker than the problematic sexism.

[CatMor]

121. The problems in the 1970's were.....

equal pay for equal work, women being able to get bank loans, women being allowed to be in professions traditionally reserved for men, womens reproductive rights, being able to keep your job if you were pregnant. I helped fight for the above.

I watched SNL and laughed. I never felt violated. I enjoyed the women in the cast because the writers went after both sexes. Why go after a senator who is on the side of women. He apologized for the childish prank with the photo. What more do you expect from him. It's comedy not misogyny. You do have a choice of not watching or listening to it. I find the Three Stooges ridiculous for poking each other in the eyes and whacking each other on the head but people found it funny. Perhaps men should be up in arms for being portrayed as idiots.

We have more important, serious issues in this country right now. Lets concentrate on that. The fight should be about getting rid of trump and getting Democrats elected.

[oberliner]

127. Sexism on SNL is definitely not one of the major problems of the 1970s

But it did exist and it is at least worth thinking about and reflecting on.

We can fight the battle to change attitudes towards women while fighting the other battles as well.

[TheFrenchRazor]

216. you can't walk and chew gum at the same time? it's not either/or. nt

[CatMor]

218. Of course I can

I also believe in being able to address your accusers. Something we have in this country called innocent until proven guilty. I think an investigation should be conducted as Senator Franken has called for.

Sorry if I don't think it's important at this time to be concerned about SNL from the 1970's. In my opinion it was funny at times and I didn't feel offended.

Not all men are misogynists. There are many good men out there on the side of women and I happen to think Franken is one of them.

[usedtobedemgurl]

113. Just as I defended his accsuer, I will defend him....

Her past pix have nothing to do with whether the incident did or did not happen with Franken. His past writing skills does not mean he did anything to her. See, writing skits does not mean you are predisposed to assault women anymore than posing for sexy pix means you asked for it or you are lying. One does not necessarily correlate with the other.

We need to just look at the fact in this case. Al Franken's hands are not even touching her breasts in the photo. The alleged body guard and photographer both have stepped up to say nothing untoward happened.

Facts are an amazing thing. No need to drag his, or her, past into the light.

[oberliner]

120. I agree with your points

I think, though, that this article is more about addressing misogyny and sexism in a more general way.

The way the author ties the two things together, is, perhaps, unwise. However, the larger conversation about SNL and the male-dominated comedy world in general is one worth having, in my opinion.

Franken himself has said that he is ashamed of some of the jokes he has written in the past.

[usedtobedemgurl]

125. oberliner...

Yes, I totally agree with you on the discussion thing and not just in the comedy world. We need to discuss the male attitude in general.

[Me.]

119. You're Certainly Catching It For Observing The Truth

You only have to watch the show once to catch onto what you're trying to say. They are obsessed with female body parts and functions and often the humor directed at such is adolescent and in poor taste. I don't know the truth of the FRanken situation but if he did it, it was a failed attempt at humor and not an intent to assault anyone.

[oberliner]

122. Thanks for this response

It's an issue that needs to be talked about, at least. Particularly among us on the left.

[Denzil_DC]

123. There's a UK TV series:

It Was Alright in the...

They show current celebrities TV clips from the 1970s and 1980s:

Crammed with jaw-dropping clips of 1970s television shows, this two-part series delves into the TV decade that taste forgot

Some of the clips I didn't find acceptable even back then. Hell, there are shows on now that make me cringe.

Franken's actually ahead of the pack here, as he's acknowledged times have moved on (except in certain sectors - ever seen Republican attempts at humor?).

It's certainly not fair to single him out for this, as in the headline. But nothing about recent events has been fair.

[oberliner]

131. There used to be a US game show called "Family Feud"

Where the host would kiss all the female contestants, even those who were teenagers.

[Denzil_DC]

134. In one UK daytime darts game show from the 1980s, the comedian host asked a male contestant:

"Is there any young lady you're tampering with at the moment?" (i.e., more innocuously, "Are you dating anyone?)

It's actually hard for me not to laugh at it even now because of the casual deadpan delivery and the home truth it expressed about some of our courting habits in the past, and I don't believe for a minute the comedian intended anything bad (the contestant collapsed in stitches and the audience were falling about).

But put it in cold, hard text out of context and, well ...

Throw satire into the mix, with its use of verbal and physical caricature, exaggeration and sarcasm, and if you're not inclined to appreciate it for whatever reason, humor of any period can be shocking and indefensible.

Like I said, it's not right to single Franken out for this.

It's still unfair to have him used as a springboard and scapegoat for discussions on these issues - he's publicly acknowledged he's not proud of some of the humor from that era. Show me how many other comedians have done so.

[RhodeIslandOne]

175. I once heard Shirley Manson of Garbage (who is from Edinburgh)....

....when asked by Howard Stern when she started dating say "I started interfering with boys when I was about 14". This was in the late 90's

I thought it was a pretty unique way of saying it, I thought it was a UK thing.

[Denzil_DC]

178. I think it's usually meant archly, for laughs.

These are the only two examples I've heard, but it's typical British humor (Scottish humor can be even more bawdy and edgy - Google Frankie Boyle, who's actually politically right-on and very intelligent, but has a reputation for being offensive).

But looking back, teenagers, I'm afraid, will be teenagers. We were clumsy, learning about courtship and boundaries and the whole dance, not exactly innocent in many cases. Hopefully it didn't rise to outright abuse that left lasting scars.

[CatMor]

145. Seeing as youre going after entertainment...

how about girlie magazines, the fashion industry and cosmetic ads. Let's have disclaimers on every photo or ad stating this has been photoshopped and airbrushed to the nth degree. The subject has moles, pimples, pores and fake breasts. Better yet don't airbrush and Photoshop. Show the reality. All of the above is harmful to young girls wondering why they don't look like that. Let's have truth in ads and magazines. Richard Dawson giving the females a quick kiss seems harmless at best.

[OnDoutside]

132. So true. The likes of Bernard Manning and Jim Davidson said stuff that not even a KKKer would

get away with now.

They're of their time. Remember when the likes of Not the Nine O'clock News came in, to sweep that rubbish off the TV screens ?

[Denzil_DC]

137. Yeah, then we had the "anti-PC" backlash in the 1990s and 2000s,

"lad's mag" humour, women joining in ...

I doubt you or I found Manning or Davidson acceptable even at the time.

[OnDoutside]

142. Especially being Irish, we had to put with all their "Mick jokes". Awful stuff.

[Denzil_DC]

153. Ugh.

And actually quite dangerous at the time given what we euphemistically refer to as "The Troubles" and some of the anti-Irish sentiment, or worse, in some of our major cities.

I'm Welsh-born, living in Scotland. This sort of crap continues even now (even worse since the Scottish independence referendum).

[OnDoutside]

166. The parallel to the subtle way it goes on now mirrors the dog whistling in the US, doesn't it ? I

remember going to the UK in the 80s where we were treated like suspected terrorists, just because we were Irish. As a result I have sympathy for overwhelming majority of British Muslims, who are being looked on similarly nowadays.

[Denzil_DC]

174. Yes, it does.

In the 1980s, I went out with a woman who lived in Leeds. Her previous partner had been an abusive drunken asshole, but just happened to be Irish.

Before she got rid of him, she used to dread payday, not just because he might come home drunk and belt her, but because if he got picked up by the police, he'd come home black and blue, having been dragged backwards over a chair he was sitting in while in custody etc. - torture tactics, basically.

It's a relatively trivial example, but it was rife.

[RhodeIslandOne]

133. You seem very invested in this. n/m

[oberliner]

144. Yes, fighting sexism and misogyny is a top priority for me

I am grateful that so much is finally coming to light and being discussed that was winked at in the past.

[RhodeIslandOne]

147. Making sure Roy Moore doesnt get elected would help

I’m sure you have some hard hitting articles ready to post analyzing his behavior.

[treestar]

202. Then why Franken?

A lot worse and a lot more comes from the right wing, and today, not the 1970s

[Zambero]

136. Progressive

means progressing from where we as a society once were to a better circumstance, socially, economically, and diplomatically in a manner that is fair, equitable, and respectful to all citizens. If one cares to look back at the state of comedy circa 1970's and 1980's as a reflection of where society stood in these matters, they would find it to be very revealling. Progressive causes and political action would not be necessary if some sort of perfection had already been attained. We're not there yet, and we certainly weren't 30 of 40 years ago. Comedy of any era has always operated on the cusp of topical reality and outrageous sentiment, and what seemed appropraite or "OK" at the time may not be deemed so years later. Those who are capable of changing with the times and standing firm against what might have been considered normal in an earlier era represent a step in the right direction. Others will not adapt, and rail against what is considered "political correctness". And the latter category should be the focus.

[pwb]

150. Your getting nowhere with your smear attempts.

Wish you would give it up. Leave this shit to the Russian bots.

[oberliner]

152. This is an article in the Washington Post by a left-wing feminist writer

Addressing sexism and misogyny on SNL (and in the male-dominated comedy world, in general) particularly during the 1970s era.

[Demsrule86]

181. It is a smear and unfair to pin Saturday Night sexism years ago on Franken.

[JI7]

151. You had a very different view when it came to Jerry Lewis

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029494674

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10029625280

[oberliner]

154. Very true

We all have blind spots when it comes to people whom we admire, clearly.

[Kingofalldems]

155. Boom. Good find.

He also trashed women.

[oberliner]

158. Agreed

I'm glad folks took me to task on that one.

[Demsrule86]

182. He wasn't a Democrat.

[stonecutter357]

156. nice hitjob but it was a fail like the last one .......

[oberliner]

160. This article was published by the Washington Post

And was written by a left-wing feminist woman.

[OilemFirchen]

172. Confirmation bias doesn't help your argument.

This is akin to a right-winger posting that an article castigating Donald Trump's behavior appeared in National Review and was written by a right-wing misogynist.

It's also equivalent to arguing that someone shouldn't be believed because of his or her political leanings. Pretty sure I've seen a lot of posters railing against that in the last few days. Were you one of them?

[Demsrule86]

167. Why are you still doing this?

[Freethinker65]

176. Pretty standard for TV then. Charlies Angels and Threes Company were huge hits too

[RhodeIslandOne]

180. All In The Family....

I hate this phrase, because it's overused, but they truly "could never make that today".

[TheFrenchRazor]

217. yes it was, but that certainly doesn't make it right, so who cares? nt

[Freethinker65]

219. Comedic and dramatic television writing has changed throughout the years

To concentrate only on SNL and Franken’s skit writing and proposals decades ago does not indicate a pattern of harassment and abuse by Franken. I am not saying it was “right”, but writing by committee and brainstorming possible ideas is how SNL skits are created. Most never make it past the idea stage. Lots of the ideas are crap, and many of the ideas that make it to sketch fall flat.

As I have said before, IF he insisted on rehearsing the kiss and she felt uncomfortable but pressured to oblige and he went further than the script, that IS at a minimum harassment. If there is a pattern of acting out such behavior, Franken has to go. I see no pattern yet.

[loyalsister]

186. This duscussion should be about a culture that has permitted and rewarded sexism and misogyny

The numbers of women coming forward reveals an institutional problem. 70s SNL is a clear example. It's a problem when it is intentionally buried through threats and intimidation. Turning sexism into a joke has rewarded the behavior. Franken has listened and learned and provides an example of how people can change their minds with more information. He has handled it well. Unfortunately, this has revealed a more insidious element that has allowed the misogyny and sexism and sexual abuse to thrive. Turning this into a story about accused men is similar to the way white people sometimes turn the attention to themselves when confronted with racism. Doing so is a defense of white supremacy and in this case a system that permits sexual assault to go ignored. Imagery and dialogue have played a big role. As some of us are trying to confront the intrinsic problem the voices are being drowned out and the conversation derailed by hysterical defenses of accused men.

Most of us here agree that the way women have been harassed and abused is a serious problem.
It is also becoming clear that it has been damaging to people at in numbers we didn't realize. It is not surprising that coming to terms with it can be intimidating and spark defensiveness. And, we have an opportunity to rethink some of what has perpetuated a mindset that it is acceptable for women to be objectified and abused. Al Franken is apparently willing to take a second look at his own part. That is a huge contribution to the broader conversation that we are trying to have. From what I can tell, he knows it's not about him.

[RhodeIslandOne]

200. 1970's SNL was also a commentary on the stuff "you can't speak about"....

....in polite company.

The "Jane, you ignorant slut" joke was calling out what a show like "Point/Counterpoint" was, a woman being less than politely dismissed as having an irrelevant opinion. Instead of beating around the bush, the SNL Weekend Update called it like it was by going over the top and upping the ante. That may be "too in your face" for some people, but it was was it was. The same as Archie Bunker exhibiting bigoted and ignorant behavior on All In The Family. Here it is America, this is what the American Right is all about, and YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE. That's why educated people laughed. Not because Archie was dropping racist invective.

Now it seems we are returning to a culture where you can't make those jokes on TV. Conversely we have now entered a society where a United States President can blame "both sides" for a woman being murdered by a Nazi and smug right-wingers like Kelly Anne Conway and Tucker Carlson chiding liberals for saying white nationalists with "a different opinion" should not be called racists and bullied off stage. People who manipulate the media like Steve Bannon know this.

When true political satire and biting humor is stifled and automatically dismissed as bigoted, it often leads to an undesired effect. A false equivalency fest where suddenly even obvious bigots and misogynists like Richard Spencer and Ann Coulter can simply engage in "whataboutism" and defuse anything leveled against them in a humorous way as being "mean" and "impolite".

[loyalsister]

207. The OP and my points were not a criticism of intellectual value of SNL

Television viewers are not an intellectually sophisticated subset. To believe that the general public has a full grasp of satire is like believing that the majority of men buy Playboy for the articles.

Defend at all costs means ALL. The tactics and defense Roy Moore's supporters extend, serves only to further abuse of his victims. That is the case when those tactics are used to defend anyone who has participated.

There is good reason to rethink what has been considered normal and to question why there are so many of these stories.

[jalan48]

192. "... was heinous" Really?

Heinous definitions:

"hatefully or shockingly evil" --Merriam Webster

"If you describe something such as a crime as heinous, you mean that it is extremely evil or horrible."--Collins English Dictionary

"..of a person or wrongful act, especially a crime) utterly odious or wicked."-Oxford English Dictionary

&quot esp. of a crime) extremely bad or evil"-Cambridge Dictionary



Sorry, I'm not buying the "heinous" language on this one.

[treestar]

195. 1975 was 1975

Things have improved since then. In fact, they may be getting out of hand the other way.

And that would go for everyone alive in 1975, public or not.

I remember the News for the Hard of Hearing. Making fun of the disabled? And "Jane, you ignorant slut." I laughed my ass off at both. I guess you are going to condemn my teen self, the one that lived in the 1970s?

I distinctly remember a hilarious skit Al Franken did telling us to send him money. Maybe he should be arrested?

How about Find-a the Popes in the Pizza - Father Guido Sarducci. How insensitive to Italians.

[MaryMagdaline]

203. Gilda Radner came out of SNL

great comedic characters (Rosann Rosanna Danna/ Emily Letilla) I also remember one of the funniest episodes was Lilly Tomlin doing a cheer for New York ("Cheer up, New York, you could be Philadelphia). So ... they had their misogyny but they also recognized some great female talents, at least early on.

[tblue37]

222. The photo does NOT show him pawing or grabbing her breasts. It shows him pretending he

is going to. "Award winning" journalists should get the basic facts right.

[njhoneybadger]

226. And full of jokes disparaging men

And old people
And children
And politicians
And actors
And talk show hosts
And many other things