I am not advocating banning gun ownership. However -

[Avalux]

there is NO reason for a private citizen to own an automatic assault rifle with a clip that can shoot 100 rounds in minutes.

Can anyone think of a reason?

[apocalypsehow]

1. No one is, really: what most most of us want is reasonable control over these

deadly little toys, including registration, licensing, background checks, including mental health screenings, and for at least a few years a "mayhem" tax on all new handgun purchases to offset the enormous cost to society of our "enthusiasts" peculiar fetish.

You are spot-on on the assault rifles and the 100 round magazines: those need to be at the top of the list of banned weapons, and one day will be, as the nation continues to turn Blue.

[rl6214]

58. You going to run for head of the Department of Needs?

[Hoyt]

63. He and a bunch of other people. This gun culture stuff is a cancer.

[rl6214]

74. But not you, all you can do about it is whine on the internet

Good luck with that.

[2on2u]

2. You have never been attacked by

several hundred armed burglars.

[apocalypsehow]

5. Haaahaaa! Zing! Thread win.

[Hoyt]

3. Sickness. Personally, if one wants something like, they have a problem and should be prohibited from

acquiring one. Yep it's a Catch 22.

We prohibit smoking in most public areas nowadays, yet in most states, just about anyone can walk around with a gun or two strapped on.

[upaloopa]

4. Why do cats lick their ass holes?

Because they can.

[Logical]

7. It amazes me how people throw around "automatic" when discussing guns. clueless.

[baldguy]

28. Like that nit-picky bullshit matters to the - what is it now, 70+? - people who are dead & injured.

[Logical]

29. Yes it matters when people are saying shit that is not true. Like the GOP does all the time.

[baldguy]

36. So, the occasional horrific civilian massacre is just the price we have to pay?

Over & over & over again, apparently - until everyone understands the trivial minutiae of firearms? Semi-automatic weapons kill innocents just as effectively as automatic weapons do. THE TECHNICAL DETAILS ARE MEANINGLESS TO THE DEAD!

[HooptieWagon]

73. Good luck banning everything but muzzle-loaders and revolvers.

That pig won't fly... the RW will fight to the bitter end. And the government cannot find and return 12 million illegal immigrants... how the hell are they going to find and confiscate 200 million guns?
It seems more commonsense to me to try and keep guns out of the hands of criminals and crazies. If we push towards that end, possibly the RW will come around once they understand we're not trying to take guns away from responsible owners.

[baldguy]

78. There's no such thing as "responsible gun ownership"

"Responsible" motorcycle owners & enthusiasts will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their motorcycles safer & less dangerous to themselves, other motorcycle owners & the general public.

"Responsible" aircraft pilots will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their aircraft safer & less dangerous to themselves, other aircraft pilots & the general public.

"Responsible" skydivers will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their skydiving safer & less dangerous to themselves, other skydivers & the general public.

"Responsible" dog owners will do everything the can & follow every law which makes their dogs safer & less dangerous to themselves, other dogs, other dog owners & the general public.

But so-called "Responsible" gun owners will fight every measure - proposed or imagined - and do everything they can to prevent laws which make their guns safer & less dangerous to themselves, other gun owners & the general public. If this wasn't true, the massacre - the mass murder - in Aurora would never have happened.

[Avalux]

8. OK I'll play....he had a semi-automatic with a 100 round clip that unloads in a couple of minutes.

Sorry I didn't get the semi in there. Still no reason for it.

[DURHAM D]

12. They keep calling it an assault weapon on my tv.

What is it with the defense of these unnecessary weapons on DU do you reckon?

Everyone in my family hunts and no one needs or has an assault weapon - perhaps because they don't hunt humans.

[HooptieWagon]

14. Do you realize how big a 100 round clip

would have to be? You're either spouting ignorance or over-the-top hyperbole. Shooter had no such clip, and Ive never heard of such a thing. It would have to be several feet long.
I understand people are grieving, upset, and are trying to make some sense out of what happened. That is why taking a break before climbing on a soapbox is a good idea... it keeps you from making foolish posts.

[Avalux]

15. Forgive me posting what I was shown on ABC News.

They had the same gun, and the clip, and explained how it works. Sorry I said anything....certainly don't want to offend gun enthusiasts.

[HooptieWagon]

23. First of all, Im not a gun enthusiast.

I dont or haven't own a simgle one. I have fired an AR-15, converted to automatic fire. It had a standard 20 round clip. I had heard of drum magazines, but not seen one. IMO, anything larger than a standard clip is unecessary for a semi-automatic, and more likely to jam. A standard clip can be changed in a couple seconds, so I dont think witness accounts of continuous fire are necessarily accurate. In a day or two, Im sure the cops will have a statement on the guys weapons and clips.
BTW, the AR I fired was on a hunting trip decades ago. Unimpressed, I can't imagine a worse gun for hunting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. It still has a fairly high ROF

Do you agree with that statement?

[NutmegYankee]

39. A semi-automatic rate of fire is based on how fast you can pull the trigger.

How fast can you click your mouse over and over again? Each click is one round.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Would you agree at least 100 rpm? The full auto, not this one,

Has 800 rpm.

[NutmegYankee]

65. At first maybe.

Since the trigger force is 3-5 pounds of pull, the muscles will tire quickly. I'm sure he got quite a bit of rounds into the air, but I think what was even worse was the bottle neck the crowd had to run to get out of the theater. He could wound/kill many people without aiming by just firing into the traffic jam of people. Sick sick sick.

[HooptieWagon]

66. He might get 100 rpm, if he was shooting randomly.

Perhaps 2/3 would miss, so only 30 people would have been hit. Im guessing. Since he hit 70 people, perhaps some more than once, I think he was being more methodical... aiming and firing each shot. Even at close range, in a crowded theatre, that might be a shot every 2 seconds. Maybe more. So it might have taken him 3 minutes or more to empty a 100 round magazine.

[HooptieWagon]

54. As fast as can be aimed and the trigger pulled.

So he got a shot off every second or two. Changing a clip takes a couple seconds, so whatever capacity he was using made little difference... changing 3 clips would have taken less than 10 seconds longer than using a 100 round drum magazine.
Now if he was shooting a full automatic, the ROF is so high that large capacity would be of use. But at that point the shooter isnt targeting, hes just throwing lead in the air.
I still think the issue should be keeping ANY firearm from being obtained by criminals and crazies, whether it takes new laws or better enforcement of existing laws. Unfortunately, the NRA's solution is always more guns, not better laws.

[Trunk Monkey]

27. The MAGAZINE they showed on ABC

was a 30 rounder

[HooptieWagon]

37. What were ABC showing?

I imagine the shooters clips were still in a lab being tested. Were the cops displaying a similar clip, or was this an ABC crew that just bought a clip to film? Theres a lot of BS neing thrown around... just trying to seperate it from the facts.

[Trunk Monkey]

81. ABC went to a gunstore

and got what appeared to be a CAR-15 w/ a standard 30 round magazine.

[Cronkite]

17. Now you HAVE heard of such a thing....

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=42026/Product/AR-15-M16-60-100-ROUND-MAGAZINES

[HooptieWagon]

20. And you know the shooter had one?

[Avalux]

24. Thanks for your post above.....ABC news stated the gun had a 100 round clip.

They could be wrong, but that's the part that really freaked me out.

[Cronkite]

59. You wrote "Ive never heard of such a thing". How did you interpret my post as my "knowing"?

I don't know shit about the incident. You say you did not know 100 round mags exist and I present you evidence that they do. That is all.

Thanks for trying to argue about a simple informative link attempt though!

[HooptieWagon]

69. People were saying 100 round clip

without sourcing that info, except that ABC showed a 30 round. It wasnt revealed until later, that it was a 100 round drum magazine, stated by the police. Just seeking the facts, m'am.

[HooptieWagon]

40. Looks more useful for showing off than shooting.

I wouldn't call a drum magazine a clip. Poster above had a link to a side by side magazine clip that held 100 rounds. I cant see where either is especially useful on a semi automatic, and may be likely to jam.
In any case, its all conjecture. I havent heard the cops say what the shooter used, so anything anyone else is speculation.

[HooptieWagon]

50. OK. Thanks.

Thats the first I heard the story sourced. I doubt the capacity made a difference, he could have changed clips and killed just as many.

[oneshooter]

67. The M1 Garand is a Battle Rifle, full power 30-06 ammo.

[Hoyt]

68. Clip or mag, really doesn't change discussion about so-called "assault" weapons and popular lethal

accessories.

[HooptieWagon]

71. By definition, any weapon is lethal.

And it doesn't appear to me that in this case it would have made a bit of difference whether the shooter used a 100 round drum magazine or three 30 round magazines.

[Hoyt]

72. Or a clip. What matters is it's too easy for this to happen in this country.

[HooptieWagon]

76. Ive been in Latin American countries with gun ownership banned...

and they have a much higher violent crime rate. And we're at a point where banning guns is impossible... no agency is going to be able to locate and take 200 million guns. So doesn't it make sense to attempt to prevent criminals and crazies from getting guns, where responsible gun owners may help, rather than ban all guns which will have little support?

[Hoyt]

80. Let's stop it now before the next 100 million are made. Or, you guys

Will say, but there are 300 million guns and we should just sit on our asses and say the same thing when next 100 million are made. Tax them in meantime to pay for all or part of shootings.

Coddling the gun culture ain't in society's best interest.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. Snail drum magazines have been around for some time

Just about any semi auto rifle can be set up for one. They almost always have a key wound spring and most I have seen do not function well with just one winding for the entire magazine. Their overall reliability is marginal at best. Such magazines also unbalance the rifle and make it hard to use.

I have used them. I have one for demonstration in my shooting classes. I would never use one.

[HooptieWagon]

70. I hadnt heard of one until now.

And after seeing a picture, I think your assesment is probably correct...

[lapfog_1]

77. Uh... multiple news agencies are reporting that the police say that he had one of these on the scene

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct896.aspx

It's only $139 and available online.

So you might want to check YOUR facts before calling bullshit on someone else.

[Trunk Monkey]

82. The police are also saying they don't know if the weapon is

semi automatic or fully automatic. Mind you this is a weapon that you can look at and tell the difference but the "don't know yet"

what else are they bullshitting about?

[4th law of robotics]

9. I wonder if they will acknowledge this?

The immediate response to all these things is invariably "why do we need automatic weapons".

Just as invariably it is not an automatic weapon used.

I don't know if it's deliberate obfuscation or just herd-ignorance.

[Avalux]

13. Oh please. semi-automatic...go ahead and defend the weapon he used.

Go ahead. There's no reason for having one other than to kill people.

[4th law of robotics]

18. Defend the weapon?

Ok, the weapon is innocent as it is incapable of independent thought or action.

Now, was it an automatic weapon or not?

[Avalux]

19. I'm being emotional, which usually isn't my thing.

Let me try this again....

I stated automatic in my OP, and as others have pointed out, it was a semi-automatic. I admit I got it wrong. However, I'd really like someone to explain why someone would want to own a weapon that is designed to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time. What are the reasons someone would own one? For fun? To feel powerful? To kill people? I'd really like to know.

[4th law of robotics]

21. Do you know what semi-automatic means in this context?

[Avalux]

22. Yes. It is self-loading, but the trigger must be pulled between each bullet.

I do get that. I don't think I was wrong in stating that the cartridge holds a hundred bullets...that's what was stated on the news.

[4th law of robotics]

25. The news stated he was in the teaparty

I'd give them a while to stop being emotional too before we believe too much of what they have to say.

[HooptieWagon]

26. I havent seen a statement about his clip size...

perhaps you can help with a link? A clip can be changed in less time than changing a cassette tape - maybe 2 or 3 seconds. He may have changed standard clips a few times without the witnesses noticing, so it seemed like continuous fire. And he probably had 10 rounds or more in each handgun.

[Avalux]

47. Here you go: 100 round magazine found at the scene

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/justice/colorado-shooting-weapons/index.html

[Trunk Monkey]

30. The AR 15 platform is one of the most popular rifles on the market today

I can't stand 'em ( I'm a mini 14 guy myself) but people use them for hunting, target shooting, and home defense

[Avalux]

38. So what time of game does one hunt with an AR 15? And what's a mini 14? n/t

[HooptieWagon]

44. They are pretty useless for hunting.

I think most people own them for target shooting or to show off.

[Johnny Rico]

48. It's the most popular centerfire rifle in the USA.

They are pretty useless for hunting.

Completely wrong. They're becoming more and more popular with hunters.

[Avalux]

53. Can you tell me why?

My family are sportsmen, my Dad has hunted all his life, and doesn't own one of these. In fact, he likes deer hunting to be a challenge, so he uses a muzzleloader.

[Johnny Rico]

61. Versatile. Accurate. Reliable. Quick follow-up shots.

Can be switched to a different calibre by just swapping out the upper receiver.

What's not to like?

[HooptieWagon]

62. Semi auto might be useful in a field or range.

where you can get several shots.
Hunting in thick brush you only get one shot, so something bigger than a .223 is better... and semi automatic is no use.

[HooptieWagon]

56. Wont penetrate a gator at 30 yds.

Personal experience.

[Johnny Rico]

60. Not if it's chambered in .223, certainly. An Armalite in .338 Federal

would be another matter entirely, I suspect.

[Johnny Rico]

45. Depending on the cartridge the AR-15 in question is chambered for,

it can be used to hunt virtually any game animal in North America.

The Mini-14 is a .223 semiautomatic rifle, in practical terms similar to most AR-15s. It has a wooden stock instead of a black plastic one, though, so it doesn't upset gun grabbers.

Seriously.

[sarisataka]

49. I don't hunt with them

but some states allow AR-15s to be used for deer hunting. They are good on any smaller game. For hunting a person is usually limited to 5 round magazines.

A mini-14 is a ranch rifle. A carbine that shoots the same cartridge as the AR. It was designed to be a handy weapon for ranchers to use against coyotes and other varmints. It acccepts many modifications and often gets a 'military' appearance.
As built:

with mods:

[Trunk Monkey]

83. .223/ 5.56 NATO is an excellent round for coyotes and other vermin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Mini-14

A Mini14 (^see link^) is a semiautomatic, magazine fed , gas operated rifle patterned after the US M14 .

[Hoyt]

32. Just shows how lethal semi-autos are, yet the gun culture wants them everywhere. You can fire a

semi-auto pretty fast.

This is what we allow on our streets. You can thank the NRA, T-Party, right wingers and a few Dems in right wing districts.

&feature=player_detailpage

[4th law of robotics]

10. Would you have felt better if the CO shooter had a semi-automatic?

Because . . um . . he did.

[DURHAM D]

16. No.

[Marinedem]

11. Well...

I don't believe in arbitrary restriction.

Why do you need 100/90/80/70/60/50/40/30/20/10/9/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1?

Se how easy that is?

Which is the right number?

I personally have no utility for one. I still would like the option to have one if I should choose to.

I prefer 20 rounders for my precision target rifle.

That's twice the capacity of the magazine in the gun of the VT shooter, and he killed twice as many as this new asshole.

The guns used on Bobby Kennedy and Reagan each held six.

Capacity isn't the issue.

The gun isn't the issue.

Non medicated psychos are the issue. Start there.

[HooptieWagon]

33. JFK was shot with a bolt-action carbine.

So you have a valid point.

[ileus]

31. Class III is fun?

Really other than just for fun there's not much reason for full auto weapons unless you're in a security job.

[elleng]

51. NO reason.

I AM advocating banning of gun ownership.

[Higgs boson]

64. Maybe you should relocate to Jamaica where guns are totally banned

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6657203.stm

[elleng]

75. and has one of the

highest murder rates in the world, and clearly prohibitions, if they exist, are not enforced.

Thanks but no thanks.

For a long time, Jamaica has been a transhipment port for Colombian cocaine. A lot of the cocaine gets smuggled out into the islands and sold. Drug smugglers from Haiti trade sophisticated guns for marijuana and cocaine, and the island is therefore awash with guns.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6657203.stm

[Higgs boson]

85. You seem to be advocating both sides of the issue at once.

Did you or did you not mean it when you wrote "I AM advocating banning of gun ownership."?

If you really did intend to write that, I have to wonder how you can advocate something that's clearly against the vast majority and obviously has no chance of incorporation into policy. If you didn't mean it, I must confess I'm not bright enough to grasp the satire. My SO and I went to Jamaica many times in the 1980s and 90s but it got too crazy and we quit going. The interesting thing is that we always 'packed' a gun and DECLARED it on the customs forms but nobody ever even commented on it. (Reason for that is that we backpacked through the cockpit country and knew it could be very dangerous...even back then, I hate to think of doing that nowadays, sadly.)

[elleng]

87. Advocating both sides of the issue?

Not sure I have done that. I said:

There is NO reason for a private citizen to own an automatic assault rifle with a clip that can shoot 100 rounds in minutes, and I advocate banning gun ownership.

I also recognize the Supreme Court's role in interpreting the Constitution and accept that, even though I sometimes disagree with its decisions, as I do with the Heller decision. I support as many restrictions on gun ownership, possession and use as possible.

Satire not intended. Life is complex.

[ethereal1]

79. How about...

Advocating abolishing the 1st Amendment?

If I don't like what you say, why should I support your right to say it?

You clearly don't support the 2nd Amendment and suggest we abolish one of the first amendments our founding fathers though necessary to ensure the survival of this great republic.

Unfortunately, horrific events such as this will happen again. If guns are outlawed, these determined savages will turn to more deadly means of delivery (ie... look at the nice little Improvised Explosives experiment he had in his apartment).

We need to correctly identify the root cause of these events, and it is always the man/woman. The tool they use for the delivery will change and evolve over time, but it is illogical, and short-sighted to blame the gun for this man's actions.

Ethereal1

[elleng]

84. Not logical.

Ethereal? I'll say.

I disagree with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 2d Amendment in Heller v. DC. http://www.lawnix.com/cases/dc-heller.html

I agreed that 'there is NO reason for a private citizen to own an automatic assault rifle with a clip that can shoot 100 rounds in minutes,' and I can think of no legitimate reason for gun ownership by the populace except for hunting animals. 'A well-regulated militia' was necessary in and around 1776.

One of the reasons I went to law school was to advocate for and preserve the First Amendment. I support your right to say whatever, except to shout 'fire' in a crowded theater.

The 'root cause' of the 'horrific events' won't be identified as long as governments can't/refuse to address the causes, due to funding or refusal honestly to examine social matters, which will continue as long as repugs have control.

[cliffordu]

86. HE DID NOT HAVE AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON.

goddammit, get the facts right.