Cliff's Notes for DU today: "I believe her... unless he is a liberal Democrat"

[Bucky]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/leeann-tweeden-al-franken-the-lead/index.html

I'm pissed about Roger Stone's slimy involvement in this, too. But that doesn't mean Franken doesn't have to be held to account for his behavior. Unless there's a train of events like this, he won't lose his seat. But him having a D behind his name shouldn't get him any extra benefit of doubt.

[BannonsLiver]

1. Oh FFS

it's okay to ask questions about poor dear Leeann and her background. Thinking people ask questions. Morons apply a cookie cutter, both sides equivalency, to everything.

[Bucky]

5. I don't recall much call for questioning Moore's or Trump's or Weinstein's accusers

Thinking people ask questions consistently. There's not much consistency going on here in Franken's case.

[BannonsLiver]

7. Nonsense.

There were dozens of Dem senators that came out yesterday and condemned Franken's actions and called for an inquiry. The vast majority of people here have criticized him but have also been willing to examine who his accuser is and accept his apology. In your world that's not consistent. You're expecting people to apply the same level of outrage to Franken as they would to Weinstein, who may face criminal rape charges, and has more than 80 accusers, and Moore, a man who preyed on teens. You're pissing into the wind with that one, I'm afraid.

[Bucky]

45. I'm not talking about Democratic Senators. Note the headline -- I'm talking about DUers

[BannonsLiver]

47. Yeah, and I addressed that.

Also understood: You think people who ask questions about her background are insufferable misogynists.

[NCTraveler]

13. You are equating things that cannot be equated.

There is truly no realistic thought process that could have brought you to post this in honest.

[mythology]

9. Thank god she wasn't wearing a short skirt

To use your word, morons blame the victims.

[BannonsLiver]

10. More ridiculous hyperbole.

So you view Franken in the same light as Moore and Trump? Got it.

[NCTraveler]

14. They are fucking stupid enough to equate him with predators.

[BannonsLiver]

15. I didn't want to believe that, but I think you're right.

This is why we get slaughtered by Republicans in fights like this.

[cwydro]

29. Im with you.

Such craziness here lately.

[maxsolomon]

2. Nice Broad Brush

I believe her. And I believe him, since he's not denying it, and apologized immediately.

How should he be held to account for this sex assault - an unwanted kiss with an adult woman - prior to his Senate career?

Firing Squad? Exile?

[Bucky]

4. Don't put words in my mouth. I have no complaints about Franken. He's handling this properly.

My complaint is that even today there are DUers writing "but the photograph was staged" defense.

And, inevitably, some idiots are sayings it's photoshopped.

I didn't call for a firing squad and you know it. I said I expected he'd not lose his seat.

I'm cool with people disagreeing with me, but please do so honestly

[gratuitous]

8. So, what qualifies as being held to account?

He shouldn't be stood up against a wall with a blindfold and cigarette, he shouldn't lose his seat in the Senate. So what would satisfy your need for accountability? An afternoon in the stocks? Five hundred cuts instead of a thousand? Force him to listen to 10 hours of Kellyanne Conway tapes? An indignant lecture from Orrin Hatch about his lower middle class upbringing (while wearing a tailored suit that could have paid three months' rent for some of his less well-off constituents)?

[Bucky]

21. Good questions

So what would satisfy your need for accountability?

An afternoon in the stocks? -- No
Five hundred cuts instead of a thousand? Bring me ketchup, your words are starting to taste funny.
Force him to listen to 10 hours of Kellyanne Conway tapes? - Prohibited by the 8th Amendment
An indignant lecture from Orrin Hatch about his lower middle class upbringing (while wearing a tailored suit that could have paid three months' rent for some of his less well-off constituents)? Now you're just being silly

I'm not the one responsible for that decision. If ... If he's found to have done these things, there are procedures. She might could sue him for harassment. The Senate might have a rebuke or censure option to exercise. The accusations obviously fall far short of expulsion. Clearly there's gonna be some further apologizing he'll do (again if the ethics inquiry bears out this all to be true.

I'm a real "let the punishment fit the crime" kind of guy. Let the process determine the crime first. In the mean time, let DUers quit betraying their feminist values and quit assuming she's lying because she accused someone we like.

[Kirk Lover]

49. I would think she may be embellishing because of her connections with fox news

sean hannity and she's a birther. A BIRTHER.

You say let the process determine the crime....so I see they musta got to you because there is NO CRIME.

[gratuitous]

52. Then I don't understand your post. and I'd hate to be silly

If she could sue him for harassment, then that's really on Tweeden, and doesn't concern the rest of the world.

The Senate has no jurisdiction over a private citizen's conduct or behavior, even if that citizen becomes a Senator later on in life.

Further apologizing? Would "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" every day for a month, a year, a decade be sufficient? Or would a penitent's crawl over glass shards be enough?

I don't see anyone betraying their feminist values, mostly because I don't know everyone's feminist values. Perhaps you could start with a list of each DUer and your rating of his or her feminist values?

What I do see is people exercising their judgment based on a number of factors. Not all crimes are equal, or we'd be executing people left and right for everything from murder to jaywalking. Here's a quick compendium of things I urge you to consider: First, the totality of what we know about someone from their public life. Why do DUers like Al Franken, but dislike Roy Moore? If you think these feelings are just arbitrary and ungrounded in fact, we can stop now.

Al Franken has been in public life for decades as an entertainer and an elected official. Roy Moore has been in public life for decades, mostly as an elected official. Consider what we know of Franken's record, then consider what we know of Moore's record. Do you discern any differences in behavior, tone, respect for others, comportment, and character? If you don't think there are any differences between the two men's public record, we can stop now.

Next, consider the accusers. Is there one accuser or several? What, exactly, does each woman accuse Franken or Moore of doing? Is there a contemporaneous record (e.g., relatives or friends the accusers confided in, journal or diary entries) from these accusers? If you think there's no difference in the number of accusers, the credibility of the accusers, and the behaviors alleged, we can stop now.

Finally, consider the history and reputation of each man accused, and their reaction to the accusations. What do the people who have been around each man have to say about them? Those who've worked with each man, what do they have to say about him? Have there been rumors for years about each of them that a woman would be wise not to be left alone with each of them, or just one of them? Have the accusations against each man been buttressed by behavior in other spheres of their lives? Has one or the other lost one or more jobs or offices for misconduct? Does the totality of their public history tend to support or not support the accusations?

If you can honestly walk through those steps and conclude that what Al Franken is accused of doing is every bit as bad as what Roy Moore has been accused of doing, then I question your judgment, and deem that you're in no position to credibly conclude that DUers are "betraying their feminist values."

And I haven't even reached the question of whether Tweeden's telling the truth or not.

[maxsolomon]

11. Your OP title puts words in MY mouth

And those of every DUer.

You even used quotation marks!

[alarimer]

30. That the photo was staged is, in fact, a defense. It puts the lie to that part of the story.

And the whole thing was a skit, including the kiss. I'm sure there are plenty of actors who say their acting partners in scenes go to far. And that is wrong. But this is not at all the same category of offense as Moore.

But what people are questioning is the suspicious timing of the release of info. Right now, right when Moore is under attack, right when the Republicans need all the votes they can muster to get their tax bill passed (and it would help greatly if one Democrat was removed).

I don't question her story or intent. I don't think she, personally, wants to wreck Franken's life or job. I do think the Republicans in general and people like Bannon in particular are turning over every single rock they can find to get dirt on Democrats. And they will certainly find some because they are human, just like the rest of us.

[Nevernose]

17. He did deny it

And while unwanted, it was entirely consensual. It was just gross. That’s based entirely on HER version of events — and the other half of her story is a lie, based on the picture SHE gave the world.

Please stop pushing this blatantly false Republican narrative. They’re terrified that Moore will lose in Alabama and they know what internal polling has said about Franken’s presidential chances in 2020. They’re scared and they’re Dean-screaming him.

[maxsolomon]

26. When did he deny it?

In his apology taking responsibility for doing it?

[Nevernose]

38. My memory of the rehearsal is different

He denied it while not calling her a liar. It’s class and the right thing to do for all of the actual victims out there.

If he grossed her during the single rehearsal stage kiss, or embarrassed her later with a tasteless picture of her NOT being touched, she definitely deserves an apology. But anyone referring to any of this in any way as sexual assault or harassment should be apologizing to the many, many victims of such thing.

“Juvenile prank photo” and “bad stage kiss during a rehearsal for a live stage performance” don’t rise to those levels. Especially when she was already caught lying about the photo, fifty percent of her story.

[mythology]

3. Agreed.

[mindfulNJ]

6. Can't the same be said

for the opposite side?

Conservatives say "I believe her except when he's the president" (or running for office in Alabama)?

The difference here is that Al Franken has owned up to what he did, and apologized with no excuses. We won't get that from Moore or Trump.

...and Roger Stone and Hannity's involvement DOES matter...it implies that they have been actively searching for a distraction from the Moore scandal.

[Bucky]

12. You'll excuse me if I hold myself to a higher moral standard than Trump supporters

Yes, Republicans pretty consistently put party ahead of country, truth, justice, and American values. It's disgusting. It's tribalistic. It's unamerican. To have Stone & Hannity involved is equally appalling and hypocritical--as they've both supported abusers in the past accused of things far more onorous than what Franken is accused of (and Hannity has been accused of harassment personally, tho apparently of things far less frequent & horrible than his ex boss and colleagues).

I think Franken is handling this perfectly. He's gonna end up taking a censure for this, if the accusation bears out; this is my guess. And he should. I have no complaints about him.

But DUers who are announcing it must be fake are insulting this site's longstanding feminist imperatives. Women generally don't just make up fake accusations. We say this around here all the time. When the accusations point at one of our heroes, it's not right to drop our values to back our man.

[moriah]

16. I get you. I think Franken has handled himself very well, though.

There have been some terrible posts, but also lots of people condemning hypocrisy when they saw it.

Franken hasn't engaged in any of the attempts to defend his conduct, called the bluff about an investigation so Beverly Young Nelson's testimony under oath has nothing holding it back, and did assert that he doesn't recall the alleged backstage incident the same way. Still, even while saying that, he said he still believed people should listen to a victim's story and try to understand it from their side.

When told this, Tweeden didn't push back with "Guess we record memory very differently, but...", instead saying that she felt his full statement was heartfelt and sincere. Either she's *very* forgiving about something that allegedly still made her want to punch someone a few minutes earlier, or she realizes she'd REALLY want to punch a boss who did that to her, or someone who did it to a child.

[Bucky]

22. I agree with that. I just wish more DUers followed his example.

Put the matter in the hands of the responsible party (ethics committee) and wait for the results.

[oberliner]

18. Thank you for posting this

It is insane the way some DUers are responding to the Al Franken story.

[Bucky]

24. Thanks

I expected I'd get excoriated for posting this. So far people are disagreeing with me respectfully in this thread. Which is a nice surprise.

I'm also impressed by how forthright and properly Franken is responding to this. Honesty and humility will go a long way toward bringing Al back from this (and toward frustrating the rightwing activists trying to make hay out of accusation).

[spotthebird]

19. Her credibility is in question because she lied about the photo

So what is your point?

[Adrahil]

23. The "D" doesn't....

But character does count for something. He has been an outspoken advocate for women. She's a Trumplican. He owned up to his behavior and apologized.

He doesn't get an extra pass, but he does get some credit for being honest and forthright.

[Bucky]

27. I don't know about her politics. I know the first accusation that she was a Trumper was Snopes'd

I don't care about her politics. This is not tracking like a bogus story. Her acceptance of his apology tells me this isn't a total fabrication, even if this story is (as seems likely) getting "a little help" from Hannity and Stone.

Women don't just up and lie about events like this. This story will come to a fuzzy gray ending, I imagine.

I totally applaud his response to this (or at least nod in approval, as none of it warrants cheering about).

[BannonsLiver]

32. I just read the Snopes piece

At no point does it debunk the contention that Tweeden is a Trump supporter.

[radius777]

56. Motivation matters, if she's a Trumper,

she clearly doesn't care about "sexual assault" or "women's rights", and is just bringing this story (likely her own twisted version of events) up now as part of a RW attempt to change the narrative away from Moore, i.e. "both sides do it" false equivalency... also to weaken someone like Franken who is one of the most powerful and effective Dem voices who has appeal to many of the same white working class voters that Trump got in the midwest. This is a political hitjob pure and simple.

[rzemanfl]

25. I think Leeann does not want to get anywhere near testifying under oath.

Franken staged a bad sight gag 11 years ago. Al knows how to handle this, he apologized, did not directly call the woman a liar, threaten to sue her or invoke gawd. This false equivalency stuff needs to stop.

[Bucky]

31. False equivalency?

My OP is about too many DUers' hypocrisy, not about Franken's mature and measured response to the accusation. Franken is not acting like a mirror-image of accused Republicans (eg, Trump, Moore, Ayres, O'Reilly, or Bob Packwood for you history buffs).

DUers in several threads are borrowing from the GOP playbook. That's why I object to.

[rzemanfl]

36. I was not accusing you of false equivalency although I can see how you could take it that way.

It's the media that is doing that. That said, if the Repukes deny everything, does that mean that Democrats can deny nothing? This woman was either a knowing or unwitting participant in a Republican ratfucking smear. I vote knowing. So shoot me, it would be better than living in Trumpist Dumbfuckistan.

[kcr]

28. Then why do you come to this sucky woman hating place? Huh?

Give me a break.

[Bucky]

34. What sucky woman hating have I done?

[kcr]

37. Are you kidding me?

You blanket accuse DU of hypocrisy and partisan politics regarding believing victims of sexual assault, then claim you don't understand my reaction? Come on.

[Bucky]

42. You've described DU hating. You accused me of woman hating.

I understand your reaction. I don't understand your logic.

What misogyny is there in me saying DUers shouldn't drop the "I believe her" standard when the accused is a liberal Democrat? What woman-hating is there in that?

[tonedevil]

53. You should learn to read for content.

You were not accused of woman hating you were asked why do you come to this place if you think it is such a sucky woman hating place.

[BannonsLiver]

44. +1

[uponit7771]

33. BULL FUCKIN SHIT !!! False equivalency bullshit alert

[Bucky]

39. Back that up.

I stand by what I wrote. DUers are posting suppositions about her being a liar without proof. Unlike Franken, they're rushing to point fingers at Leeann Tweeden and accuse her of lying without any evidence. It's behavior I'd expect from a rapist's unethical defense attorney.

Franken isn't being equivalent, but a hell of a lot of DUers are. That's what my post is about. If you want to read more into it, that's your business.

[uponit7771]

57. Character counts and so does the situation

... so I don't think its a "unless its my party" situation given the character of those involved.

There's valid .. RATIONAL ... reasons to be skeptical of Trumpers and their ilk especially Stone being involved in any way.

Your post seem to dismiss these concerns outright

The fact that Franken apologized and she accepted aside, I don't see a "grope" in the stupid over the top pic that was taken of Fraken.

Again, I'm not going to throw Trumper character out of the equation WHEN its coupled with the rest of Trumplican KKKlan like Stone tweeting shit earlier is in the context.

I don't see this as a my party is better situation ... people SHOULD be rationally skeptical giving the facts.

Thx for your input

[BoneyardDem]

35. It's all been covered...and not in the manner you are trying to portray

"what you talkin' about ?" It's like you haven't read anything here all day long.

Or maybe you did and this is what you come up with?

[quickesst]

40. Riddle me this

If the alleged assault was so bad, disgusting, and offended her so much that she felt as if she should go and wash her mouth out, why the hell would Al Franken even approach her and her husband at an event, much less say hi? I would be avoiding her like the plague especially if she were accompanied by her husband who supposedly was aware of the alleged assault. It's as though common sense and logic has been sent to their room for getting in the way.

[Bucky]

48. I think all of that is consistent with him "remembering the incident differently"

It just bugs me the way so many DUers are questioning her account. The standard for us has always been "I believe her". I've listened to her side of things and his. I don't think either is lying. I think a LOT of DUers are reacting tribally to this. They're taking a binary view of these accusations. I think a LOT of women call tell you stories of being accosted by male authority figures and then later having to play nice and hold their tongues (no pun, I promise!) around that same guy later on in a social situation.

Even Terry Crews described doing that when some Hollywood producer groped his junk at an event. He didn't react. That's how many people with a sense of propriety react to inappropriate behavior... especially where power relationships are on display

[quickesst]

59. Here's the thing

The women accusing Moore and Trump have been corroborated with research and witnesses to to lend credibility to the accusations. That, with the fact several of the women who are accusing Moore are Trump supporters is why they're easy to believe. With Franken and his accuser you have her account and his account which by his own words are different than hers. You can't tell me that I should believe her over Al Franken simply on her word. This is a right-wing Trump supporter who by that admission agrees with the character of the Republican Party which is a party of proven lies. I find her hard to believe not because she is a woman, I find her hard to believe because of the low standards she has set for herself by aligning with the right-wing Republican Party....who lie.

[crosinski]

41. Faith and commitment.

If you believe in someone, it's ok to be in their corner. When the people trying to do you and your buddy harm are coming at him fast and hard, that's when most people rely on faith and commitment so they can defend their friend even if they don't have all the facts. That's what you're seeing here. I'd rather be that kind of person than someone who backs away from a fight because of intellectual purity.

I'm not saying you're that kind of person, because I think you're curious more than anything else. So, yeah, I'd rather be wrong and go down fighting for our side. Being wrong doesn't kill you, you know. It just makes you humble, and sneakier.

[Bucky]

50. Thank you.

I certainly hope (and expect) that if guilty, Franken ends up facing consequence proportionate to the offense.

I'm curious about what happened. I'm a dad. I have lots of female friends and I've been "woken up" a bit by the Me Too movement.
But right now I'm disappointed and peeved at the number of DUers who are throwing our values out the window when they're tested. This is a "fight" I won't back away from.

I hope Franken doesn't end up becoming sneakier. The way he's handling this, I expect he'll come out of it a better man.

[crosinski]

58. I'm a woman, and I've had my share of harrassment through the years.

I'm now 63. Please consider my point of view. It might surprise you. The values you seem to be assigning to us all here at DU aren't really equally valued. In other words, your fight right now is clearly against sexual harassment. However, other people here value the Democratic Party as their primary value. That's because they know it encompasses the fight against sexual harassment.

I'm one of the DU'ers who value the Democratic Party and have faith that it will work to stop sexual harassment because I've seen it happen throughout my life. Whenever a democrat is president, not only are laws passed to help level the playing field between women and men, the culture changes for the better too. And I've seen it go the other way too. Don't even get me started on the Ronnie Ray-gun years ... and they were nothing compared to now!

So, knowing what I know, Franken's accuser is either being used, or doing this for money, or both. The repuglicans are shoving our own outrage over their Alabama pervert in our faces, and I'm pissed about that. I think we should have questioned the accuser right away, and we did. Franken apologized right away, and she accepted that apology.

I don't think the right response is to accuse each other of not honoring 'our' values, because we are honoring our values. We're just not honoring them they way you want us to.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

43. It's obvious some people equate kissing an adult woman with

putting your hands down a 14 year-olds pants. I don't. Sue me.

[rainin]

46. No!! I'm being told I HAVE to believe this

because he's a democrat! How does someone whose innocent defend himself?

And don't say he admitted it. He said very clearly he remembered the rehearsal differently.

He also apologized for thinking putting his hands over her body was funny. AND, he apologized for past tasteless humor.

He did NOT ADMIT to sexual assault. People seem to think he did.

Now, how does someone defend themselves if they are innocent of sexual assault?

Apparently, among democrats, he is presumed guilty.

Geeez.

[Kirk Lover]

51. SHE IS A BIRTHER - IT'S OK TO BE SKEPTICAL.

[awesomerwb1]

54. Fugg. Another one?

This thread belongs on brainfart or infowars.

On the photo, there was no contact made AND she was wearing a bullet proof vest! She wasn't topless or wearing a bikini for crying out loud.

And yeah, I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt than Stone, Infowars, and her. Yes, I said her.

[lame54]

55. Benefit of the doubt - yes...

Blind faith - no