There. Are. DEGREES. To. Behavior.

[GaYellowDawg]

There is no denying that grabbing someone and forcing a French kiss on her or him is wrong. I've had it happen to me. I was on Bourbon St. and a drunk woman grabbed me and stuck her tongue in my mouth. It was disgusting because I wasn't attracted to her and she tasted like smoke. It was also embarrassing because her friends whooped it up and my friends gave me a hard time about it. But you know what? Somehow I survived the trauma. In fact, I'd forgotten about it until this came up. Because it was a small thing.

There are degrees to bad behavior. If you slap someone, that's violence. But it's not in the same league as beating someone, or hitting them with a bat, or stabbing, or picking up an assault weapon and committing mass murder. It's all violence, but there are degrees.

Likewise, forcing a kiss on someone is wrong. But it's nowhere near what Louis CK did, or Trump's claim to "grab them in the pussy," or targeting ANYONE underage. It's all a form of sexual assault, but it's not all equivalent. One unwanted kiss on an adult isn't going to ruin or alter your life. Being targeted as a teenage girl sure as hell can. If you think the two are equivalent then you are simply wrong. Because there are degrees.

And because there are degrees, then yes, Democrats, we can support Al Franken and abhor Roy Moore and his supporters. We can ask them, "so do you think that forcing one kiss on a grown woman is exactly the same thing as a man in his 30's targeting multiple teenage girls and assaulting some of them? Does unwanted kiss = pedophilia?" And repeat the last line over and over their sputters of indignation until they give it up.

There are degrees. And that's why Al Franken is a good guy who made a stupid minor mistake, and Roy Moore is a damn monster. Any absolutists on the board might actually want to consider that.

[DinahMoeHum]

1. One instance is a comedy gig gone raunchy (Franken). . .

. . .the other instance is statutory rape (Moore)

[eShirl]

2. Actually

Louis CK did not physically impose himself on his victims. An unwanted french kiss is a violation in a way that flashing isn't.

Perspective from someone who has experience both kinds of unwanted behavior.

[whathehell]

9. I agree with you and the OP.. Unsolicited sexual touching is always worse.

That said, CK's actions still amount to a particularly gross form of sexuall harassment.

[sarge43]

3. Thank you.

Also, there's making one stupid tacky mistake, then there's years of habitual criminal behavior.

Then, there's sincerely owning and apologizing for the mistake or defending the behavior and blaming the victims.

Yes, degrees. 180 of them.

[Blue_Adept]

4. This is why I trashed anything with Franken after yesterday

It's not to diminish any kind of sexual harassment or incident but it's like everything is treated with the same level of outrage and desired consequence.

[LBM20]

5. Spot on great post!

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. This is timely for me.

I am delivering a sermon on Sunday about equality not being a legitimate value. Justice and equity are. Equality, when held up to specific examples, falls apart pretty darned easily. And oddly enough, equality when put into practice quickly starts to look authoritarian.

I've been a victim of many different degrees of sexual assault and harassment. I completely agree with you. Some instances were way worse than others, and one I didn't even remember until I saw the accusations against Franken yesterday.

[mainstreetonce]

7. She agreed to the kiss

He may have gone for more than she wanted,but he didn't assault her,he persisted till she agreed to the practice kiss.
I don't think that is assault at all.

An apology is all that is needed.

[TNNurse]

8. I am not defending Franken's idiotic behavior.

It is not however a pattern of behavior. It was a stupid public gesture with a camera. It was not a physical assault in an alley in a car. And it was not with a minor child.

It was wrong, but it is not equivalent to Moore's behavior or to Trump. Not even close.

[Orsino]

14. I hope this is true.

I'll wait for more context on the events alleged. Whether or not there are more accusers will matter a lot.

[Tracer]

10. I agree completely.

I was unexpectedly assaulted in a similar manner as Sen. Franken by a well-known person (who is quite a favorite on this board).

He quickly apologized and it was over.

My life was hardly ruined by the experience. So yes, degrees DO matter.

[Stuart G]

11. I also agree. Thanks for posting.

[Kirk Lover]

12. Some politicians and talking heads are making equations and it's pissing me off.

[moriah]

13. Of course there are degrees.

Given she's not pushing him on the allegations during the rehearsal, which he denied her account of, it really goes back to the gag picture being taken.

Which was essentially the male-on-female equivalent of drawing a dick on a person's face during a sleepover. Something you hope people outgrow before junior high. And undoubtedly even if he wasn't touching the vest, he did try to use camera angles to get the "as if" impression. Stupid, immature, etc.

Also, truthfully, getting that close to a sleeping female is not smart unless you know them very well. Many of us have had real assaults in the past. My PTSD is so bad I couldn't have slept at all in that situation unless it was true sheer exhaustion or medication.... but if I had woken up to someone that close to my tits, they'd have been injured before I realized I wasn't actually getting attacked again. (Edit to add: yes, bedpartners get advanced warning of this, and so far I've yet to do worse than an accidental bruise in a nightmare. But the point remains... some people have issues.)

[mythology]

15. Likewise there are degrees to how a victim feels

Just because you responded one way doesn't mean it would have the same impact on another.

I agree on average what Franken did (as currently alleged) is less bad than Moore, but I don't necessarily see it as all that different from what Trump bragged about. Forced kissing and groping. Other than Trump bragged about it of course.