Franken needs to put this thing to rest, one way or the other

[Azathoth]

Clearly, he thinks an ethics investigation will allow the scandal to die down and provide a factual forum for the truth of the allegation to come out, but the GOP has no interest in providing him with an opportunity to be fully exonerated. Trump fluffer Risch sits on the ethics committee, for God's sake. They will maneuver to drag the hearing out and keep it in the news, and they will do their best to deny Franken the chance to walk away without some kind of lingering cloud over his head.

Franken's apology only adds fuel to the fire and gives them ammo. He needs to put his side of the story out rather than just ceding a blank canvas to Tweeden and Republicans to paint whatever picture they want for the public. Specifically:

1) What does he mean when he says he "doesn't remember the kiss that way"? Tweeden was hired as a T&A model to sex up the USO show. It's believable that a comedy skit would involve a comedian "tricking" a gorgeous model into a kiss which he then takes "advantage" of. If something like that is the case, Franken should come out and say so, own up to the fact that it was a raunchy skit which she had agreed to rehearse. Otherwise, he needs to admit that he crossed a line and took advantage of her.

2) The photo looks bad and that's why he's spending so much time apologizing for it. But he's not really explaining it other than to say it was a "joke." It doesn't appear that he is touching her breasts in the shot. Was the photo staged? Was she aware of it at the time? Was it a selectively chosen shot from a larger goofing-around session? Did he actually go on to grope her as she contends, or was it just a quick posed shot and that was that? His "apology" only addresses the optics while conspicuously leaving out the context.

Franken obviously figures these details will come out during the investigation, but the simple truth is the longer he goes without definitively answering these two questions, the more people are going to assume the answers are not in his favor. And at the end of the day, if you've done something wrong, it's better to admit to it up-front rather than wait until your sins are uncovered during an investigation by a GOP congress.

[Not Ruth]

1. Without the investigation, it drops out of the news cycle by Sunday

How much have you heard about Louis CK today?

[Azathoth]

6. Louis CK is not a US Senator in a soon-to-be election year

The GOP are going to do their best to turn this investigation into a prolonged media circus. The very least Franken can do is make them do the heavy lifting of discrediting his side of the story.

[VOX]

20. NOTHING drops out of the Republican news cycle.

(And I had “news” in the subject line above in quotes, but posting from a phone deletes punctuation in that line.)

The other night, Hannity was talking about Bill Clinton accuser Juanita Broaddrick, for Christ’s sake. They’re dragging them back into the spotlight to distract, as usual.

Whataboutism is the mainstay of RW talking points, and there’s no pull-date on whataboutism. You’d think that Bill Clinton was still running for office...they need scapegoats, and from ANY timeline is A-OK in their playbook.

[chillfactor]

2. was there not a republican in this mess also..

who is he?

[BootinUp]

3. He will give more details when he's ready. Nt

[Azathoth]

21. I hope he gets ready soon.

Because I sense the GOP are going to try to turn him into Moore's whatabout, just as they are trying to turn Uranium One into Trump's whatabout.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. The GOP has little to gain from trashing Franken.

In the worst case scenario, in which he resigns from the Senate, Minnesota's progressive Democratic governor will appoint his replacement. Minnesota has a pretty deep bench - including Keith Ellison.

[BannonsLiver]

7. If Moore wins and ends up being seated the GOP will drop this like a hot potato.

That’s why I’m not really feeling the same fear the op is feeling, among other reasons.

[Azathoth]

18. You really think they are going to run away from this?

When Democrats are asking Republican candidates across the country whether or not they support throwing Roy Moore out of the Senate?

[BannonsLiver]

23. Yeah, under those circumstances I do. What of it?

If Moore is in the senate that is bad for the GOP in 2018. If you can’t see that we’re on different planets.

[Azathoth]

24. ?? I never said Moore wasn't bad for the GOP

I said the GOP is not going to run away from this Franken thing because of Moore. In fact, if Roy Moore gets elected, I think they are going to run towards Franken at full speed and try to turn him into the next Uranium One.

Whataboutism is the bedrock of the GOP right now.

[BannonsLiver]

26. Yeah because making hay over Franken would make everyone forget about Moore.

in case it’s needed

What kind of logic is that? Do you even hear yourself?

Uranium 1?

[Azathoth]

30. WTH are you talking about?

I never said it would make people "forget" about Moore. I said it would be a classic tit-for-tat "whatabout" tactic.

I love people who think emojiis somehow substitute for logical argumentation.

[BannonsLiver]

32. Not as much as I love self assured people who somehow believe their flawed logic is profound.

[Azathoth]

35. Protip: If my logic is flawed, you have to show *how* it is flawed

Not just post emojiis and expect you have proved your case.

[BannonsLiver]

42. You must have been a real pillar of support for President Obama during the birther years.

“President Obama’s must prove he wasn’t born in Kenya and isn’t a Muslim by releasing his birth certificate and answering these charges from the Republicans!1!!”

Your logic isn’t flawed, it’s downright kooky. But hey good luck with your fear mongering. I’m sure there’s an audience for it.

[Azathoth]

44. You're incoherent

Not a single thing you've posted reflects anything I've said.

I never said Franken needed to "prove" anything about a conspiracy theory. I said he needed to put his version of the facts out instead of allowing Tweeden to dominate the narrative while a GOP congress conducts an ethics investigation of him. He has already admitted to kissing her, and the photo speaks for itself. There's no conspiracy here, just an allegation that seems to agree with the facts which has not yet been discredited.

And for the record, I was one of Obama's strongest defenders, including back when this site was heavily populated by the pro-Wikileaks Greenwald left.

[Azathoth]

10. Franken is, next to Warren, one of the most visible progressives in the Senate

Granted, he's not up until 2020, but the GOP is desperate for any kind of distraction. If Roy Moore gets seated, the GOP will be really anxious to build a "both sides do it" narrative. And they will want to play a tit-for-tat game of asking every single Democratic politician running for election "Do you still support Al Franken?" to neutralize the inevitable questions about Moore.

[Gabi Hayes]

5. Your sincere concern is duly noted

Any advice for Roy Moore?

[Azathoth]

11. Yes, drop out. And your clumsy refusal to engage with anything I said is duly noted

[Gabi Hayes]

16. Why engage with twaddle?

Enjoy yourself!

[Azathoth]

59. lol that's some real projection

[woolldog]

8. The photo doesn't look bad at all.

It looks like a joke that she and everyone else was in on. Ridiculous how quick and easily Democrats turn on each other.

[a kennedy]

9. I know, and its pissing me off.....

Al is my damn awesome Senator, and this needs to be done with.

[woolldog]

13. Was watching Chris Hayes and he had Michelle

I think her name is Goldberg on ...she's a liberal commentator and was saying Al should resign! I couldn't believe it. Last time I watch any segment with her on it.

[mchill]

33. I don't want him to resign BUT

it be a defining moment for which Party has zero tolerance which does not. The Franken story is a bit vague for me, though.

[riversedge]

28. I lived in Mpls when Al was on Air Americaloved that radio show. I have a soft

spot for him. He is a good man.

[fallout87]

12. Probably

Because we can't ask for resignations from the opposing party while at the same time trying to brush our own issues under the rug.

You can keep calling it a joke, but that's not how most people are seeing it.

[woolldog]

14. most people?

says who? Most people don't give a crap about this...unless they're politically motivated. You all are so quick to cave. Get a spine for chrissakes.

[fallout87]

15. Yeah

Most people that are able to put the partisan lenses aside. If our country is going to make things right to all the women and people sexually assaulted, we have to maintain some sort of consistency.

[woolldog]

19. nonsense.

you haven't polled most people. you just haven't.

You can't feel someone up when she's wearing a flak jacket. Good grief.

[kcr]

22. Nope. We don't have to invent false equivalencies to do that.

That isn't partisanship. Those who are falling all over themselves to prove to others they're playing fair aren't fooling anyone or helping women.

[rzemanfl]

40. You're all over this, aren't you, tovarich?

read this-https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029853144

[Azathoth]

17. I suppose honest people can disagree, but I really don't think it looks good

And I don't think Franken and his staff do either, which is why they spent the bulk of their statement apologizing for it.

Context is everything, and in the case of that photo I think it's in Franken's interest to add the context as quickly as possible.

[OliverQ]

25. You guys think Franken will resign?

I'm just so sick of the double standards, and Republicans getting away with everything. It's truly draining me. This fight is becoming too much.

[Azathoth]

27. Who said anything about resign? I want him to fight

I want him to tell his side of the story now and not just depend on an ethics investigation from a GOP-controlled Senate to eventually get the truth out.

[OliverQ]

29. He's getting a lot of pressure to resign, and even being attacked by other Dems.

He may think it's the right thing to do.

[Azathoth]

31. He's under pressure, in part, because he really hasn't pushed back

The longer he goes without providing his side, the more people are going to assume he's guilty of everything that has been alleged.

[rzemanfl]

36. Here-

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029853144

Franken will not resign and that woman does not want to be questioned under oath.

[rzemanfl]

34. Here-

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029853144

Your concern is noted.

[Azathoth]

39. This wasn't clever the last few times it was posted, either

I start a thread arguing that a Democratic politician should PUSH BACK and provide HIS SIDE instead of just apologizing, and all people can do is sneer about my "concern."

This is downright cultish behavior.

[Ms. Toad]

37. She does not contend he went on to grope her

Unless there is an additional statement I have not seen.

She said she fell asleep, and later found the photo of him groping her. Period. No going on to grope her. But for the photo, she would not have been aware of it.

[Azathoth]

41. Here

"I couldn’t believe it. He groped me, without my consent, while I was asleep. I felt violated all over again. Embarrassed. Belittled. Humiliated. How dare anyone grab my breasts like this and think it’s funny?" she said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/sen-al-franken-accused-forcibly-kissing-groping-woman-n821381

[Ms. Toad]

43. That follows this paragraph:

But it was when she left the USO show and looked over photographs given to her by a photographer that she found one that showed Franken grabbing her breasts while she was sleeping in the plane and wearing an army-issued protective vest.

As I said, she was unaware that it happened, but for the photograph. She does not contend he "{went} on to grope her." She is expressing disgust at what she saw in the single photograph had occurred "while I was asleep."

[Azathoth]

45. Oh for God's sake

"He groped me, without my consent, while I was asleep."

She is accusing him of groping her and cites the photo as proof. She contends the photo shows him in the process of touching her breasts.

This isn't my opinion. It's an objective fact: She has accused him of groping her.

[Ms. Toad]

46. You are misreading plain English.

Please point to where she indicates she has an independent recollection of anything leading up to the photograph or after the photograph (other than the kiss). Or even where she was told by others that there was more than what is shown in the obviously staged photo.

I'm not excusing his behavior - but dont exaggerate what his accuse said he did.

[Azathoth]

48. "He groped me"

This statement, in plain English, says that she believes Al Franken groped her.

She did not say "I remember him groping me." She said "He groped me" without further modification. That is an unambiguous accusation and a statement of what she believes happened. "Independent recollection" of the event has nothing to do with the plain English meaning of her stated belief that "he groped me." You are are now way down into the sophistic weeds of linguistic gymnastics, essentially trying to claim that the accuser is not actually saying what she is saying.

You would be better served by simply stating that she doesn't have *proof* of her belief, other than the photo, which is not actually proof because it doesn't show him touching her.

[Ms. Toad]

49. She is referring to what she saw in the photo. Period.

Read her entire 2-paragraph statement about the interaction together.

She describes seeing the photo, recognizing what it represented, and expresses shock and disgust.

You have charactized it this way:

It doesn't appear that he is touching her breasts in the shot. Was the photo staged? Was she aware of it at the time? Was it a selectively chosen shot from a larger goofing-around session? Did he actually go on to grope her as she contends, or was it just a quick posed shot and that was that?

You are putting words in her mouth when you reject her description of what she sees in the photo ( "she found one that showed Franken grabbing her breasts while she was sleeping), and then attribute to her an assertion she never made: "Did he actually go on to grope her as she contends"

[Azathoth]

50. I really hope you don't think this linguistic parsing is going to achieve anything

She contends he groped her. Whether she believes the photo shows the exact moment his fingers made physical contact with her breasts, or whether she believes that contact happened right before or right after, is pedantic. She believes he groped her based on the photo. If you keep dancing around this fact, then there is really nothing for us to debate because we have hit a fundamental roadblock.

Either way, I'm curious what you hope to achieve with this picayune linguistic parsing. Even if she had never stated that Franken groped her, a reasonable person could see that photo and wonder if he touched her. What is the harm of Franken telling people the context of the photo and denying there was any contact involved?

[Ms. Toad]

54. You flat out deny that the photo shows him touching her breasts.

She is ONLY describing what she sees in the photo as groping, and sharingher feelings about it. Yes, she is saying he groped her - but she is saying that is what she sees in the photo.

The photo is there for everyone to see and judge for itself. You looked and didn't see groping. She looked and did see groping.

I'm willing to accept that she sees groping in the photo. Like you, however, I don't see it - I see a crude joke at her expense. And that's all.

You, apparently, are not willing to accept that you disagree about whether the photo supports her allegations - and rather than live with that perhaps uncomfortable tension, have repeatedly attributed an additional accusation to her that I see no evidence that she has actually made - that he "went on" to grope her ("went on" means sometime after the photo was taken).

It is not picayune linguistic parsing.

By her plain language she is describing what is going on in the photo. You are insisting that while the photo doesn't show groping, it supports her allegations of something beyond the photo - allegations she never made.

[Azathoth]

55. I said the photo doesn't appear to show him touching her breasts

That's my opinion. Maybe she disagrees. Or maybe she believes it was snapped the instant before his fingers made contact. As I typed my original post, my phrasing implicitly assumed the later interpretation. But maybe that's wrong. Maybe she believes the photo does show his hands on her breasts. Or maybe it actually DOES show him touching her and I just can't see it. Either way, she has stated that he groped her.

You, apparently, are not willing to accept that you disagree about whether the photo supports her allegations - and rather than live with that perhaps uncomfortable tension, have repeatedly attributed an additional accusation to her that I see no evidence that she has actually made - that he "went on" to grope her. It is not picayune linguistic parsing.

This is the essence of picayune parsing. English prose is not mathematically precise. You have now spent post after post trying to build some kind of case that my use of the four letters "go on" proves that I have invented an "additional accusation" on her part -- as if I'm implying he approached her and groped her at a later date. This kind of word game strains the bounds of good faith argumentation. If the three words "go on to" were stricken from my OP (and you're welcome to do so if you feel inclined), the intended meaning of the sentence (and the entire post) would stand unchanged, and everything you have posted would be moot.

At this point, there is nothing for me to do but leave it to readers to decide whether I have concocted some further allegation on her part.

On edit: For anyone reading, I should point out that the title of the original article was Al Franken accused of forcibly kissing, groping Leeann Tweeden, for whatever that's worth.

[jalan48]

38. I agree. Asking for an "ethics investigation" without explaining his side now is like a promo for

an upcoming movie. It allows the Republicans to turn it into a big issue-breaking news!!- for the next six months.

[Azathoth]

47. Exactly

Under other circumstances, I'd say it might just fade away. But if Roy Moore gets elected, the GOP is going to be desperate to find a Democratic sex scandal to harp about through the election.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

51. This is, perhaps, the best objective analysis of the Al Franken situation I have read here on DU.

Good job... nothing to add.

[Azathoth]

56. Thanks!

Sadly, it doesn't seem like this kind of analysis is welcome around here.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

57. No, not really.

[underthematrix]

52. Actually an ethics investigation means everyone will be required to

provide testimony under oath.

[Azathoth]

53. Most congressional investigations involve sworn testimony

That has never stopped the GOP from turning committee investigations into political theater before.

I'm not sure what your point is?

[greyl]

58. He's patient and doesn't have a defensive reflex. nt