Wouldn't it be great if changes were made to respect the families of the dead in Aurora?

[flamingdem]

Social pressure counts for something.

It needs to become UNCOOL to be into guns and hyperviolence as entertainment or hobby.

All gun owners need to be engaged with community education and speak out against violence.

Hollywood hyperviolent narratives and most of all video game violence needs to be curbed.

We need change or we are disrespecting the victims and their families.

Enough is enough.

[Drunken Irishman]

1. Maybe a few of the families of the dead don't want those changes.

[flamingdem]

2. I expect that the majority of them are sane people

and want something better for other families than senseless violence.

[Drunken Irishman]

14. Do you really believe violent video games led to this?

You said it yourself - senseless violence. It shouldn't make sense and offering up reasons why it does is futile.

[flamingdem]

15. I think it's a violent context and shame over mental illness AND access to guns

It's of course not one thing.

An expert was just on msnbc explaining how the psychotic practices using video games.

For some the games relieve their aggression but for those less balanced it's a way of
heightening it and exploring their hate and urge to kill.

Have you seen the level of violence in this years crop of games?

[4th law of robotics]

19. Really? Are we still in 2012 arguing

that this is caused by videogames?

You forgot that new "hip hop" stuff the music television is playing.

[flamingdem]

21. I said it's the context and this includes:

Hyperviolent movies games and entertainment including music videos

Shame over dealing with psychopathic behavior in the family

A culture that glorifies rather than ridicules people who groove on guns for a hobby

A drive to war and killing millions with very little reflection on a social level

A military and guns culture

(My guess is that this guy grew up connected to the navy and gun culture in San Diego, just a hunch)

[4th law of robotics]

35. You realize games have been getting more realistic and graphic

and available and guns are becoming more common but crime rates have been steadily dropping.

You know that right?

[Drunken Irishman]

28. I blame KISS.

[4th law of robotics]

44. You mean the Knights in Satan's Service?

If you play their records backwards it sounds . . . just awful really.

[obamanut2012]

63. And Judas Priest

[Iggo]

40. It's that demon weed.

[Drunken Irishman]

36. This is why I don't like these arguments. We're so quick to place blame.

Some people are just born crazy. You can strip out all the violence from video games and movies and crazy will still be there. Violent video games did not cause this kid to shoot. It did not make him more dangerous or heighten his urge to kill. The fact is, you don't know what his background was, what he did in his spare time, who he associated with, what games he played or what movies he watched.

To put this on video games is a cop out.

[flamingdem]

46. It's context, our culture has a violent context driven by $ nt

[Drunken Irishman]

58. And yet, violent crime continues to plummet.

[flamingdem]

59. Due to community policing, shaking down the small timers nt

[Drunken Irishman]

61. Right...

[flamingdem]

72. Better to answer with what you think it's about

or what your point is since you began this

[mythology]

88. So you're saying that people who watch violent entertainment are the cause of this?

In other words, the very people watching the movie until some idiot came in to shoot them.

Gun violence isn't nearly as black and white as either gun supporters like the NRA or people who want to ban guns altogether want to admit.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

3. I question the mental health of anyone that owns more than a hunting rifle or small handgun.

I think we should mandate screenings or revoke ownership, immediately.

[flamingdem]

4. Exactly. We need at least on a social level, reject the idea of needing

any major firepower to "hunt" or "protect". It's a power trip, when is it needed?

It's not needed. It IS culturally acceptable to be into gun violence.

Screenings are a minimum requirement - as a society we should be able to manage that!

[AngryOldDem]

9. Agreed.

You don't need an AK-47 to hunt game. And if you think you need to carry a gun with you everywhere you go, that's another issue.

I have read comments on other sites today that if someone in the audience had had his gun with him, the number of dead and injured would have been cut in half. THAT mentality is almost as bad as the mentality that leads to tragedies like this in the first place. I just have a vision of a shootout in a crowded, dark, and smoky theater. Insane.

Until this country somehow overcomes its fascination and obsession with weaponry, we'll just keep seeing more of this.

[gregoire]

77. Exactly!

The solution to too many bullets is not more bullets. Thankfully there wasn't one of those CCW people in the theater to escalate the level of violence.

[sarisataka]

82. Maybe yes, maybe no

Odds are there was at least one carrier there, likely more, who did not shoot. Was it too dark, too much risk of hitting an innocents, we will never know.
If there was a carrier in the 2nd row who shot him after his first shot- would that person be the hero of the day?
There wasn't so we won't ever know that either.

[PavePusher]

86. You were being sarcastic, right? n/t

[PavePusher]

85. "You don't need an AK-47 to hunt game."

And you don't need a .30-30 lever-action rifle either....

But the AK-pattern rifle is ballistically almost identical and, with hunting-legal magazines (generally 5 rounds or less, varies by state laws), makes a fine hunting rifle for deer.

Please cite to where a lawful carrier engaged in a shoot-out with a criminal that ended up with 12 dead and 50+ wounded.

We'll wait.

[Posteritatis]

42. I question the motivations of anyone that medicalizes disagreeing with their political stances. (nt)

[southernyankeebelle]

5. I am so sick of hearing about guns guns guns. Nothing is going to change. Unless the nut

who is the president of the NRA or his family members are hurt badly by his supporters nothing will change. How many more of these incidents take place before things change?

[AngryOldDem]

6. I recall hearing the same after Columbine

That's the trouble with this country -- we wail, rend our garments, and gnash our teeth over tragedies like this for a few days, then it's right back to business as usual.

It's clear this country has a problem with guns -- see this post http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002982217 -- but no one ever seems to want to engage in conversation about what can be done about it.

Politicians, for instance, need to grow a pair and stand up to the NRA lobby. That would be a wonderful start.

[flamingdem]

7. There's a financial pay-off behind this that drives it in congress + 6 billion industry

The US gun and ammunition manufacturing industry includes about 300 companies with combined annual revenue of about $6 billion.

saw this:
http://www.occasionalplanet.org/2012/04/23/nra-official-pimp-for-the-multi-billion-dollar-gun-industry/

The National Rifle Association (NRA) is the lobbying arm of the firearms industry. It uses fear, racism, and focus-group tested catchwords like “freedom,” and “self-defence” to pimp sales for the over 300 firearms manufacturers in the United States. While the NRA represents itself as an association of gun enthusiasts, its real purpose is to serve the interests of gun manufacturers. To that end, it bullies elected officials into passing laws that will make it easier for the gun industry sell more rifles and handguns. It promotes gun sales among the public by stoking fear and racism. It conflates patriotism with gun ownership, suggesting individuals have a patriotic duty to own a firearm.

Playing off fear and racism, the NRA says “good,” people should carry a gun to protect themselves from “bad” people whom they perceive as threatening them or their loved ones. In its latest strategy to boost gun sales, the NRA has, with the help of ALEC, passed “Stand Your Ground” or “Kill at Will” laws in dozens of states across the country. By encouraging a vigilante mindset, these new laws have resulted in a large increase in “justifiable homicides.” Unfortunately, the recent shooting in Florida of “bad” hoodie-wearing, unarmed African-American teenager Trayvon Martin by “good” gun-toting, neighborhood watch citizen George Zimmerman may add to that statistic.

[ramikin]

65. Do you know why it's a 6 bILLION dollar industry?

Because perfectly sane, everyday, non murderous, polite and civil people buy them...daily.

[bongbong]

93. Yes

Thanks to right-wing fear mongering, yes, that is what happens.

repigs = violence

[4th law of robotics]

17. Columbine was instrumental in getting a lot of gun laws passed

they didn't accomplish anything and many were later rejected.

We like to implement feel good measures after incidents like this that do nothing to make us safer and aren't based on any rational understanding of the facts.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Why didn't you post this in the RKBA forum?

There has been a growing litany of complaints of firearms threads leaking into the rest of DU.

[flamingdem]

10. Why would you write something so ridiculous today?

nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. I am not one of those complaining about the phenomena

But was curious as to why it was happening. Those who object are whining about it more loudly these days in meta

[sabrina 1]

13. Because the story is in the news and it is of interest to more people than those in the

gun forum?

A huge tragedy just occurred, maybe the focus should be on the lives lost rather than on politics, at least for a day or so?

[GarroHorus]

12. .

Because nothing more needs to be said.

[4th law of robotics]

16. Maybe it should be UNCOOL to equate legal and safe gun ownership with "hyperviolence"

and mass murder?

Especially considering how many millions of americans own guns.

[flamingdem]

18. Gun owners who are responsible can contribute to education about hyperviolence

and show us that they are different and sane as opposed to those who glorify guns.

[4th law of robotics]

20. Seems you're shifting the blame on to people who are not responsible

should it have been incumbent upon muslims following 9/11 to prove to us that they aren't all violent terrorists?

[GarroHorus]

23. That was the wingnut extremist viewpoint after 9/11

All I heard from wingnuts was the Muslims never condemned 9/11, even though they did and the media never played it.

[4th law of robotics]

25. And was that right or wrong of them?

Is that a trait we should pick up and promote?

[4th law of robotics]

41. Agree 100%

It's a shame others don't see it.

[Kingofalldems]

91. Who are the anti-gun extremists?

[flamingdem]

24. My opinion is that owning a gun has a social importance

and this is ignored in our culture due to the NRA.

Yes, it should be incumbent on gun owners to give back to society since they might take someone's life
and insist upon having a tool that could end the life of an innocent, even if by tragic accident.

[4th law of robotics]

30. People who own swimming pools are

by far more likely to contribute to a childs death than those who own guns.

Should people who feel the need to own swimming pools be obligated to provide free swimming lessons to the community and apologize every time a child drowns?

[flamingdem]

33. If they don't prevent a death they are of course liable nt

[4th law of robotics]

38. Now you've changed the argument

with guns it's everyone who owns one contributing.

With pools it's if you didn't specifically prevent a death.

What gun owners failed to act to prevent this?

[flamingdem]

45. It's about intent. A gun carries with it the intent to kill nt

[flamingdem]

51. Well in urban areas guns are for killing others, happens every day nt

[Igel]

71. You confuse one use with universal intent.

Yes, in urban--and not-so-urban--guns are used daily for killing people.

But it's also true that in any area most guns aren't used even once a year for killing people. Most civilian-owned guns are never used for shooting at people.

My brother owns more than a few guns. Some he hunted with a long time ago. Javalina, mostly. But he also does target shooting competitions and has won trophies. He and his son go out 2-3 weekends a month to target shoot. Sometimes at inside gun ranges. Sometimes at outside gun ranges.

Don't confuse "some people do this" with "it's what everybody intends."

[4th law of robotics]

52. Let Mr. Luthor handle this

[4th law of robotics]

49. You honestly believe about 50 million Americans intend to commit murder?

Or 1 in 6.

Best run and hide then.

[ramikin]

67. BATFE estimates over 90 million.

[4th law of robotics]

92. Could be

the 50 million number is just what I remember hearing once upon a time.

[obamanut2012]

66. THAT is the perfect analogy

[Daniel537]

22. Gun owners don't have to prove a thing to you or anybody else for that matter

Don't like the 2nd amendment, well that's your problem. The idea that we need to change our way of life just because of psychopath's like this guy in Colorado sounds a lot like the excuses that were used to trample on our civil liberties after 9/11. Pass.

[flamingdem]

26. Well you win because the selfish rule in this culture

and we all pay the consequences for those who don't give a shit about the overall social good.

[4th law of robotics]

31. How selfish of us not to want to be blamed for the actions of others

and to be assumed murderers.

[flamingdem]

37. How selfish of you to not even consider that we need to make changes

and to do any less is to disrespect the victims of gun violence

[4th law of robotics]

39. When all else fails

hide your argument behind a pile of fresh corpses.

[flamingdem]

43. Hide yours behind the 2nd amendment and the nra nt

[4th law of robotics]

48. Ok

I will stick with 200+ years of legal precedent and the constitution based on the rights of free englishmen established for centuries before that all of which has been upheld consistently by legal experts despite rigorous opposition.

You base it on a recent tragedy and "won't somebody think about the children!?"

[flamingdem]

54. Yeah, back when they had long rifles

not ak-47s

[4th law of robotics]

62. You do realize automatic weapons

are heavily restricted and very difficult to get.

Also very rarely used to commit crimes here.

[obamanut2012]

68. The number one caliber used in shootings is a .22LR

So maybe all .22LR caliber firearms should be banned.

[flamingdem]

69. Back to the Long Rifle

[PavePusher]

87. Sure... right after the police, military and all politico's bodyguards do it.

Good luck with that.

[obamanut2012]

94. I am talking about handguns

And, those rifles shown wouldn't fire a Stinger.

[GarroHorus]

27. +300,000,000 n/t

[obamanut2012]

64. That is ridiculous

Law abiding citizens will have to prove they are law abiding citizens by giving lectures against crime, and if they don;t, they are guilty?

[LanternWaste]

32. One of the first rules of IT I learned was GIGO-- Garbage In, Garbage Out.

One of the first rules of IT I learned was GIGO-- Garbage In, Garbage Out. This one piece of garbage-malware on your PC is not the only cause of PC crashing; however, at best, it doesn't help your PC to run more efficiently, and at worst, it is one additional cause among many that caused the crash.

But despite those obvious warnings, I have to reformat three or four PCs a year because users keep downloading trash onto their systems.




I often think that same truism may be applied to a culture...

[krispos42]

34. Most murderers are career criminals

They're into guns because guns help them commit crimes.




Legalize it, and the criminals become unemployed.

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. That's a silly argument, sorry

the dead don't care, their families' positions on gun control aren't knowable; I think that the US needs stricter gun control, but I think that using a tragedy like this and claiming to speak on behalf of the victims or their families is really rather tasteless.

[flamingdem]

53. Add yourself to the status quo

you know nothing will change

[zzaapp]

55. It's the Canadians I tell you !!!!!!!

[Edweird]

57. Yeah, your OP isn't totally disconnected from reality or anything. Totally not.

[flamingdem]

60. Heh. You'd think I said something controversial

It's called basic humanity and problem solving

[Edweird]

70. Humans are, by nature, violent. 'Twas always thus and always will be.

Pretending otherwise is completely divorced from reality. Your 'problem solving' doesn't exist.

[flamingdem]

73. Disagree. Look at England

why is the US homicide rate 10 grand a year and others in Europe under a hundred?

[Edweird]

74. Eh, maybe it's because they get it all out when they beat the shit out of each other at 'football'

games. Murder isn't the only form of violence, yanno.

[flamingdem]

76. fail. You cannot answer this and it proves the point of this thread

thanks!

[Edweird]

79. See my other response.... LOL

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=985388

[Edweird]

78. BTW here's a 'look at England':

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

So much for that argument.....

[flamingdem]

80. Look up # of deaths from guns USA vs. Britain nt

[Edweird]

81. My statement is that humans are, by nature, violent.

You're going off on a tangent. Humans are violent by nature. You cannot and will not change that any more than a gay person can be 'prayed' or whatever straight. It isn't going to happen. Violence, in many different forms, is prevalent all over the globe. It not the 'American culture', it's the Homo Genus. Of course, you're welcome to fight it - it will be good for lulz.

[flamingdem]

83. The statistics disprove what you're saying. It's what is tolerated in a society nt

[Edweird]

84. What statistics?

If your only definition of 'violence' is 'murder', you are strangely and sadly mistaken.

[LynneSin]

75. We've tried that - doesn't work with the leaders of the NRA

I'm guessing next month they'll have a convention in Colorado just like they did after Colombine.

[PavePusher]

89. What, exactly, are you trying to insinuate?

There are plenty of reasons to be against the NRA without making shit up and looking like an ignoramous.

[Marinedem]

90. Well...

Social pressure counts for something.

It needs to become UNCOOL to be into guns and hyperviolence as entertainment or hobby.

Why should it be any more or less cool than anything else. I love shooting. Whats wrong with that. I don't know what you mean by "Hyperviolence". Seriously. what is that?

All gun owners need to be engaged with community education and speak out against violence.

Never met one that didn't. The reason I carry a gun is because I realize that violence is prevalent and I oppose it being done unto me. Many like me take every opportunity to educate other people on gun safety and responsibility.

Hollywood hyperviolent narratives and most of all video game violence needs to be curbed.

Sorry. I'll NEVER advocate the suppression of free speech and expression, no matter how tasteless. Not a fan of violent movies or video games, but I'll defend your right to play them until I'm blue and out of breath.

We need change or we are disrespecting the victims and their families.

We can respect the families by not politicizing this awful tragedy. Good job OP

Enough is enough.