'Dark Knight' shooting suspect's neighbor: 'He seemed like a normal kid'

[cali]

July 20, 2012 | 9:50 am

James HolmesA San Diego neighbor of alleged Colorado shooter James Holmes remembers him as a very shy, well-mannered young man who was heavily involved in their local Presbyterian church.

"He seemed to be a normal kid, I don't know what triggered it. This makes me very sad," said Tom Mai, a retired electrical engineer.

Mai said Holmes' entire family was involved in the Presbyterian Church.

PHOTOS: 'Dark Knight Rises' shooting

"I saw him as a normal guy, an every day guy, doing every day things,” said Mai's 16-year-old son, Anthony.

<snip>

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/07/colorado-shooting-suspect-neighbor-he-seemed-like-a-normal-kid.html

It is common for Schizophrenics to develop full blown symptoms in their early twenties. Just saying.

[Blue_In_AK]

3. Presbyterians are hardly "wingers," generally speaking. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

58. Some of the new Presb. churches near me ARE very much like evangelicals.

Anti-gay, supports right wing candidates, etc. The old school Presbies, where I went to church a few times as a kid, were just plain vanilla Christians. The newer mega churches differentiate themselves by saying I am A christian.. not I am Christian. So everyone is partially right, totally depends on the church.

In a town I lived near a few years ago there was the Chapel Hill Presb (mega) Church, and they are the epitome of right wing, anti-gay. Not like the cute little churches I grew up with.

[Blue_In_AK]

62. Hm, I did not know that.

I always just lumped Presbyterians in with United Methodists (the church in which I spent my teenage years) and Episcopalians, middle-of-the-road/liberal protestant denominations. Of course, in Texas in those years anything left of the Southern Baptists were considered pretty much heathens.

I get your distinction between "A" Christian and Christian. I don't even call myself Christian anymore, even though I have a great respect for the teachings attributed to Jesus...I kind of hate it that the right usurped the term.

[kestrel91316]

4. I was raised Presbyterian. They are or at least WERE pretty bland and inoffensive.

So much so that I was blindsided when I encountered my first born-again Baptist types - I wasn't familiar at all with the whole flaming evangelical thing.

[uponit7771]

6. In the west? They're wingers

[PavePusher]

20. Oh, O.K., as long as YOU say so.... n/t

[FreeState]

21. I live in San Diego and they are not wingers

they are middle of the road.

[obamanut2012]

28. Exactly -- they and Methodists

are two of the most middle-of-the-road Christian denominations I can think of.

[kestrel91316]

67. And Lutherans.

[obamanut2012]

27. Since when?

[kestrel91316]

44. Maybe in CO. Maybe in 2012. But in the western US and in NY when I went to

church, I never heard a word about the whole born again thing, and never heard that churches should be able to push their views on others.

[Ian David]

52. Presbyterians are boring, middle-of-the road and uninteresting.

For example, they will bless "same-sex unions" but not perform "same-sex weddings."

The seem to want to be right down the middle of where everyone else is.

[kestrel91316]

65. Exactly. Boring.

[backscatter712]

66. I too was raised Presbyterian. My old church is fairly moderate.

No fire-and-brimstone sermons, no snake-handling or speaking in tongues, fairly chill, compared to a lot of the fundies I've seen lately.

[cali]

5. huh?

my sister is as liberal as can be. She's a teacher in a public school. She's heavily involved in her church. My brother is even more liberal than my sister. He's even more heavily involved in his church (they're always doing all kinds of liberal good works).

I don't go to church. I'm not religious in any traditional way, but frankly, your remark smacks of bigotry to me.

[uponit7771]

7. Presbyterian in the west = winger

[snooper2]

13. What does a Taoist in the south = ?

[uponit7771]

16. When I run into a bunch I'll let you know, my experience going from one church to another to find

...a non winger congregation in the west was these types were far right with "gods" blessing.

The further west the further the extreme

[AsahinaKimi]

23. "The further west the further the extreme"

wow. I can't believe you said that.

[DBoon]

30. the sound of one hand clapping

at a NASCAR rally?

[cali]

17. your post = sweeping generalization

[Freddie]

39. 2 different kinds of Presbyterians:

Presbyterian Church USA = pretty liberal mainline Protestants.
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) = Wingnut Fundies

[Ian David]

53. Good point. The article doesn't say which one, does it? n/t

[ForgoTheConsequence]

10. That doesn't mean shit.

What the fuck is the matter with you people? 12 people are dead and the first thing you can do is jump to conclusions about their political affiliation based on small details about their life? Has the internet and divisive political climate sucked the compassion and human decency out of you? Go out, get some fresh air and reconsider your entire outlook on life and humanity.

[uponit7771]

12. Indicating how wingers stupidity has hurt America's environment quick is NOT ...NOT

...fucked up.

What's fucked up is not calling a bird a bird a child rapist a child rapist or stupid fucks like the NRA and their affiliates people who hurt Americans with their policies.

What's REALLY fucked up is staying silent and getting punked in the butt by the NRA on so many turns...

If he's a winger he's a winger...I'm tired of sitting back and watching car accidents happening and calling the injuries from the "but a scratch"

[ForgoTheConsequence]

19. Take my advice.

I promise it will be beneficial.


None of the facts have come out about this yet, they will, but they haven't. When they do there will be plenty of time to reevaluate and reconsider but until then we should think about the lives lost and lives drastically altered. Put aside your (D) or (R) for just a few hours and show a little compassion.


Go outside, breathe, call your family and your friends and tell them how much they mean. Reflect on life, remove yourself from the 24 hour news cycle and internet if only for an hour. You'll thank me.

[HooptieWagon]

18. Unfortunately, everyone with an agenda...

... is using this tragedy to promote their agenda. That appears to be the case with some DUers also.
Gun control freaks are gonna advance gun-banning agenda, even though we dont know how he got his guns.
Mental healthcare advocates are bemoaning lack of care for poor people, even though this guys family doesnt appear poor and maybe was receiving treatment.
Religion-haters are going to bash religion, even if theres no indication there was a religious motive.

I guess its just a sign of the times that some people use a tragedy to promote their selfish interests, rather than mourn the victims and wait for the facts to emerge.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

11. I'm a recovering Baptist and the Presbyterians always seemed a lot more normal to me.

[uponit7771]

14. That's not my impression of them in the west...

[kestrel91316]

45. PCUSA are normal folks, liberal-ish. PCA are the wingnut faction.

[zellie]

22. Broad brush ? nt

[kestrel91316]

2. I'm sure he was. Doesn't mean he can't be batshit crazy now. My mom was perfectly normal

for over 35 years before she developed severe paranoid schizophrenia.

[shraby]

8. Yes, they do develop it for the most part in their early twenties. I may not be full blown, but

will develop fairly rapidly at that stage of their life. They may have been hearing the voices for a year or so before, but say nothing because they are afraid of what's happening to them.

[Marrah_G]

24. Isn't high intelligence also the norm?

I thought I remember something about people often getting the disease while in college and usually being of above average intelligence.

[TwilightGardener]

33. I know it's just anecdotal, but the one person I knew who was diagnosed with

schizophrenia was diagnosed in his early 20's, having had the first symptoms of it in his late teens. We'll have to wait and see, but it sounds like that may be what happened to this guy.

[upaloopa]

9. Are we to believe that the shooter had 4 weapons laying around the house and suddenly something

triggered the motivation to use them in killing all those people?

[uponit7771]

15. ..no, there are bombs...enough to evacuate 5 adjacent appartment buildings

[obamanut2012]

32. Yes -- why is that so strange?

[upaloopa]

37. I'll make a wild ass guess that you are one of the pro gun lobby members.

If so why don't you take a wild ass guess why I posted what I did.

[obamanut2012]

43. What is it strange for someone to "snap"?

It isn't.

"Pro gun lobby members." What, pray tell, are those?

[limpyhobbler]

25. Aren't alot of Presbyterian's related to the Masons somehow?

Maybe the gov't should spend a couple billion infiltrating these shadowy groups to find out what's really going on. If they don't find anything they can always entrap a few sad kids to earn their pay.

[kestrel91316]

46. Good god. Presbyterians aren't a "shadowy group", they are a mainstream liberal-ish

Protestant denomination (except for the RW PCA faction). And the Masons are a SOCIAL CLUB, lol.

[obamanut2012]

26. Yet his mother showed no surprise he would do this thing

All very odd and tragic.

[cali]

29. it is quite possible his mother knew that he was deranged

that doesn't mean she could force him to get help or institutionalize him.

[obamanut2012]

34. That's what I meant

I just didn't really say it!

It really is rather difficult to get an adult a psych eval or committed.

[kestrel91316]

47. It's not difficult. It's completely impossible.

[obamanut2012]

50. In a couple states, it is possible

Although still very difficult, but neither CA nor CO is one of those states.

[JonLP24]

31. It's not common

for schizophernics to go mass murder sprees.

[cali]

35. didn't say it was, but it does happen.

Jared Loughner, for example- and that was recent.

Medico-legal issues

On May 25, 2011, Judge Burns ruled Loughner was then incompetent to stand trial. Court proceedings were suspended while Loughner, who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia,[79] undergoes psychiatric treatment at the psychiatric wing of the U.S. Medical Center for Federal Prisoners in Springfield, Missouri. He was scheduled to appear in court on September 21, 2011, but that hearing was delayed until September 28, 2011, when the judge reviewed whether he could understand the charges against him and could assist in his own defense. (Loughner’s lawyers unsuccessfully objected to him appearing at the hearing.)[80] Loughner disrupted the court hearing with an outburst, and was carried from the court room. According to the New York Times, Loughner believes he succeeded in killing Giffords, and clashed with his lawyer when she informed him that the congresswoman had survived.[79]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Loughner#Medico-legal_issues

I mentioned schizophrenia because of some of the related details of the case.

[JonLP24]

42. Personally it's way too early

Like too early to ascribe political motives for this.

[cali]

56. oh, I think the information is pretty clearly out there

re his being severely mentally ill, whereas the political angle is without any foundation as of yet.

[JonLP24]

64. Alright

Where is the diagnosis for schizophrenia?

[hifiguy]

38. I think it is more likely with paranoid schizophrenia

than disassociative schizophrenia. Paranoids can be meticulous and well-organized.

[hifiguy]

36. Your penultimate sentence supplies what I believe

will be the answer: "It is common for Schizophrenics to develop full blown symptoms in their early twenties."

[HiPointDem]

40. I dont know what the neighbor's problem was. DUers were able to diagnose him as mentally ill

just by looking at his picture. He had crazy eyes, any fool could see it.

[cali]

48. If this kid does have paranoid schizophrenia

he may have appeared and even been, quite normal at the time the neighbor interfaced with him. Schizophrenia often manifests itself in the late teens early twenties.

[HiPointDem]

49. "paranoid schizophrenia" will be deleted from the next dsm. you've told people they shouldn't leap

to political conclusions but you are leaping to medical conclusions.

[cali]

55. do you not see the difference?

I'm not trying to use anything or anyone for any sort of edge, nor do I have an agenda as those leaping to political conclusions do. And the DSM is and always has been majorly fucked up in large part because of politics of another sort.

[HiPointDem]

57. i see that you're making a long-distance medical diagnosis as an amateur armchair psychiatrist

based on almost no information.

i don't see any difference between what you're doing and what you devoted an entire op to telling others not to do.

killing a lot of people does not necessarily = schizophrenia, "paranoid" or otherwise.

you're free to speculate, but don't pretend your speculation is more legitimate than others'.

oh, & btw, if the dsm has "always" been "fucked up," from whence comes your idea that there is something that can be labeled "paranoid schizophrenia," the diagnosis you have given the shooter?

[cali]

60. That's what some people said to me when I

called it on Loughner within a day or so. I'll wager that I'm correct regarding James Holmes as well.

and btw, I used personal knowledge, years of working in the MH system, and the Mayo Clinic definition.

[progressivebydesign]

61. I assume you're being sarcastic, if so, I totally agree with you.

Sometimes people who are not mentally ill, per se, do awful and horrific things.

[HiPointDem]

63. yes, i'm being very sarcastic.

[Richard D]

41. Funny, but . . .

. . . the neighbors always seem to say that.

[Ian David]

51. Damn. I had $10 on Pentecostal. n/t

[Zyzafyx]

54. They all do

[progressivebydesign]

59. In some ways I wish everyone would stop pushing the "he's mentally ill" thing until they know.

Sometimes people are aren't technically mentally ill, do horrible things. It's like a young man, who is troubled, committing suicide (which is very common,) but instead acting out this way. Troubled and mentally ill are two different things.

He got through school and into med school, lived away from his family, and doesn't seem to be anything other than a quiet and shy person. It's almost as if once people think that they can't pin a political message on someone like that, then they slap the mentally ill label on them and off they go.

Sometimes people do horrible terrible, evil, things.

[flamingdem]

68. On cable they were pushing the opposite, that this much planning means

NOT mentally ill, not psychotic but psychopath.

I thought it was interesting to learn the difference. Psychopaths are pretty normal but they are hateful about certain things, society this or that abused them, then the hate overcomes their empathy and boom