I know this won't be popular, but; it is the MENTAL ILLNESS.

[Atman]

This guy in Colorado did some serious planning. We could regulate the shit out of many types of guns, and he'd have used another type. He dressed up in costume, he planned the timing.

He had some serious wiring problems. Some say that if he only used knives, fewer people would have died. Yes, but people still would have died.

I'm one of those crazy liberals that don't have a serious problem with guns in and of themselves. In truth, the Bush administration's destruction of our civil rights and shredding of the Constitution led me to this position. It was then that I realized it might be a good idea to be able to protect yourself from the government shooting at you as you try to escape from a hurricane-ravaged city, stuff like that.

I'm no gun nut, I don't own a gun (although i admit, I've discussed them with the dealer at my local fishing/gun store). I've fired long arms -- a Winchester rifle that blew a bullet clean through a three-foot wide tree, and a basic shotgun that scattered deer shot over a bunch of plastic Coke bottles -- but I don't have much experience with handguns, other than 22 pellet types.

My point is, if you're a fucking psycho looking to do harm to people, you are still a fucking psycho. You will find ways to harm people, and perhaps in much worse ways. This guy, without access to a gun, might have chosen to just launch his gas canister full of whatever and wiped out the entire theater. Just sayin'...I hate to side with the righties on this one, and i know it will get me on a few more ignore lists (especially after yesterday's horse dick post!), but my knees just aren't jerking on this one.

It is not the guns...it is the mental illness, which the GOP doesn't want treated. No health care for the poor. Fend for yourself. This is what happens when EVERYONE has to fend for themselves.

[RadiationTherapy]

1. I completely agree. The same goes for those wanting to abridge the 1st amendment

rights of Limbaugh, Beck, and others. There IS no effective way to limit speech.

[Brickbat]

2. A lot of people like to conflate mental illness and "Republicanism" or "Tea Party thinking"

which I find truly offensive. I like your post. You're not "siding with the righties" when you make the observation that sometimes a mentally sick person is just a mentally sick person. There's certainly no point in jumping to conclusions the way so many are.

[Atman]

5. I'm not trying to connect "Tea Party' with mental illness. Not at all.

Although, it could be a fun discussion for another post.

Right, left, middle, centrist, no political beliefs at all...when the wiring snaps, it snaps. We could pass a law that no one in the world can own a gun, and some guy will just make his own in his basement, or use a canister bomb instead. Someone will still make the news by taking out a movie theater when Batman 10 comes out. I don't "like" guns. I'm just not willing to jump on the bandwagon blaming guns for the Colorado incident. There was far more going here than just guns.

[Brickbat]

6. No, I know. I was agreeing with you.

[Atman]

13. I got that...just clarifying. Some didn't seem to get my post.

I expected it, of course. I'm just trying to get out in front of the negative comments.



.

[Posteritatis]

88. Agreed there

It bothers me that so many people carry it a lot further and conflate things like you describe. It's already all over the discussions about this here.

I'll bet anything there's people on the forums at the other end of the spectrum conflating mental illness with their political opponents as well.

Both are doing a wonderful job of missing the point in situations like this, and they're both helping to cause more problems for a population that has far too many to begin with without being put back on the "free target" shelf for a month or two.

[frazzled]

3. I wish the unrec feature was still available

Disgusting: "this is what happens when everyone has to fend for themselves?

Everyone has mental deficiencies (as this post confirms), but not everyone scrupulously plans out the details of a mass murder and executes it with guns. The weird lengths to which people who have gun obsessions go to protect their bang-bang fantasies.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. Not every murderer has a mental illness. Some are just evil and self-centered.

[slackmaster]

22. Anyone who is sufficiently evil and self-centered to commit murder has at least a personality...

...disorder.

[sinkingfeeling]

30. Is there any human alive that is perfect? All of us have something that might

be considered a personality disorder.

[slackmaster]

34. Personality disorders have very specific criteria for official diagnosis

That's what I'm referring to. Someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder is very different from someone who is just a self-centered asshole.

[JonLP24]

40. You're correct

which makes it puzzling classifying someone that commits murder as having one. It could be just a case of someone snapping like discovering your spouse cheating then shoots the lover. More complex than just to say someone who commits murder has a personality disorder.

[slackmaster]

44. I believe there is already enough information about this incident to say that it was well planned

Way in advance.

[JonLP24]

64. I was under the impression

this sub-thread was more generally speaking than it was about this specific incident "Not all murder..."

[sinkingfeeling]

43. But a lot of simply self-centered assholes commit murder and other violence.

[slackmaster]

45. In my opinion anyone who murders people in cold blood is mentally ill

YMMV

[sinkingfeeling]

51. Then they should all be just put in a mental health facility? And use

the 'insanity defense'?

[slackmaster]

70. Mentally ill does not mean the same thing as mentally incompetent

A person who is mentally ill and commits a crime can be held accountable, i.e. tried and sent to prison as long as he or she has not been determined by the courts to be mentally incompetent.

A person who is mentally incompetent can be held in a secure psychiatric facility indefinitely. It's not the same as a prison, but the effect of protecting society at large from the person's violent behavior is just as good as incarceration would be.

[freshwest]

90. What about war zones? It may not be cold blood, but close. People are targets, it's all strategy.

Who has the ground, etc. When an armed group working for a timber company goes and kills the natives in a forest to cut the trees down, they think they are doing a good thing and once the deed is done, it's over.

When Europeans came to the Americas to take over, and shot the natives, it was considered a good thing. When the natives killed each other over territory, they thought it was a good thing. Some made treaties.

I don't think I'm arguing with your point, I think the entire human race is mentally ill and has been for a long time. We just give it different names in different situations. In the Zimmerman case, he could have stayed in his car, and avoided it by following a few basic rules. Treaties and trade are rules that govern the way that people get what they need from each other when not having all out warfare, but the war on each other and the planet never ends.

You may be speaking of just this one incident, but if we want to go to the impulse that leads to taking another's life I think there may be a generic way of defining it. Or at least I am seeking that definition. Any ideas?

[slackmaster]

92. Apples to oranges

Warfare is a specific state of mind in which an entire group of people that you belong to is convinced that every member of another group is a mortal enemy who is intent on killing every member of your group. That members of the other group don't care about human life, maybe not even their own individual lives. That every member of the other group is without morals, and their very existence endangers every aspect of your way of life.

Kind of like partisan politics, or liberals vs. conservatives.

[freshwest]

96. Yet the cold blooded murderer in our midst may believe the same thing, and is called sick?

When more people do something we consider wrong on an individual basis, such as in a mob or a war, is it like a form of mass hypnosis. Which is not a state of mental health, but allows the individual to be used a s tool, a thing by those able to convince them. Little thought is given to the reason for being used as tools as individuals react to carefully edited information for the purpose of those who will profit by warfare. But there are real differences between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives believe they have to right to kill liberals to maintain their power. Liberals do no advocate the killing of conservatives, not apples and oranges. Hum?

[skip fox]

99. His belief in absence of directives shows his instability.

[TheWraith]

82. There's a big gap between "imperfect" and "mass murderer." nt

[skip fox]

81. Can you name a single mass shooter who did not have mental illness?

I'm not attacking the mentally ill. I work in such facilities in the early 70s and have only concern for them.

Most have painful lives. Only a few foist such pain on others.

[sinkingfeeling]

98. I said nothing about 'mass shooter', I said not every murderer was mentally ill.

[Baclava]

7. Can I be the first to blame violent video games and movies? n/t

[JonLP24]

23. You're aren't the first

though it is BS. I haven't been in a fight since I was 15 and have no violent impulses yet I enjoy those forms of entertainment which does have violence (I don't enjoy violence for the sake of violence otherwise it's just boring, there has to be more to the game or movie to pique my interest).

[Baclava]

28. that was sarcasm

I'm a gamer

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

53. I blame the sarcasm...

It's really just a form of verbal aggression that eventually manifests itself in physical aggressions.

Snark leads to serial murder.

I really hope you know I'm kidding....

[nebenaube]

8. gunman was a wanna be Nazi...

We allow them to breed here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002980772

[Tejas]

83. Not so, he was actually a cylon from the galaxy Platonia.

It was proven by an anonymous picture on the internet, Hannity is going to discuss it on his show today.

[flamingdem]

9. Disagree. The guy loved those GUNS and they did 30x or more damage than knives could

Those guns represented POWER to this sicko. No matter the mental illness, at the core he's another BULLY. Bully's cannot be allowed to have this kind of weapon. There have to be laws making it damn difficult to obtain weapons that can kill and injure dozens when one is having a bad year.

[Edweird]

26. By your logic prison should be the safest place in the world. But it isn't, now is it?

[Bandit]

41. Compare the countries that are saturated with guns like the USA with those that aren't

Then use your logic with those results....It is a fact that the more guns available the easier it is to use those guns to kill..

[Edweird]

47. Like Mexico which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world?

But that's beside the point. The fact is that inmates aren't allowed guns or knives yet they manage to assault, rape and murder each other at rate not far from the free population. It isn't the 'guns'.

[flamingdem]

55. Please, you can't compare an inmate knifing with killing 12 innocents and wounding 50! nt

[Edweird]

66. You can't conflate guns with murder. If it was the guns and not the people,

prison would completely different. Your argument is a failure.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. Last year a guy in China killed 7 people in a span of minutes with a knife.

Incredibly tight gun control.

Now, would it reduce the FREQUENCY of these problems? Yeah, probably would. but not necessarily the lethality.

[RC]

68. The problem with your 'reasoning' is that prisons concentrates the mis-fits, criminials, mental

defectives in one place, away from the rest of us. Prison is not a mirror of the real world. It only reflects the bottom of the barrel of civilization and then only those dumb enough to get caught and those too poor to buy their way out.

Also, it does not matter how many or what kind of laws a country has, if it doesn't have the means to enforce them. You know, like Mexico?

[Edweird]

102. There's no problem with my reasoning. Either it's 'the guns' or it's 'the people'.

Anyone that values reality based facts can see that it's 'the people'.

[RC]

104. Not the people with guns? Guns are a proven part of the problem.

There are actually two problem here. Mentally warped people and guns. Both contribute to the sudden death problem in this country. Take either away and the death count drops tremendously.

It doesn't matter whether it is one on one or one and multitudes of innocents. Without the gun, the goal of killing becomes much harder.

[Edweird]

106. Sure, it's harder without a gun - which PROVES my point.

Humans, deprived of guns AND knives, are so determined to kill each other that they still find ways in prison. At a rate not significantly lower than non-prisoners. That, alone, proves that it's not the guns.

[hack89]

48. So explain why, as gun ownership in America has skyrocketed

gun violence rates have plummeted to historic lows? Perhaps it is more complicated than guns alone?

[Atman]

50. Which brings us back to our CULTURE.

The reason "those countries" even have restrictive gun laws or lower crime rates, is largely cultural. We glamorize it here. Hell, just look at the movie this Colorado gunman was going to see! Do you think there weren't a few explosions and guns in the film? We love it here in America! From old Westerns, to modern shoot-em-ups, it is part of our culture. We shoot stuff, we blow stuff up.

It sucks ass. But it is who we are. THAT is what we need to change first.

.

[flamingdem]

56. +1

[Bertha Venation]

101. Agreed. And it will never change.

Why? The Almighty Dollar.

[4th law of robotics]

94. Since those countries may have wildly different laws

culture, and social safety networks it might make sense to compare between states within the US.

Those states with strict gun control are not any safer (actually tend to be far less safe) than those where guns are more widely available.

[4th law of robotics]

93. He killed 12 people

so if a gun allowed him to do 30 times more damage that means with a knife he could have killed .4 people.

So . . . maybe work on your math here.

[pnwest]

10. I am 100% in agreement.

I'm a leftie who doesn't have a big problem with guns, too. And you're right, it is the mental illness, not the gun. I also blame violent video games, movies and tv shows that glamorize bad guys...that make being that guy look sexy.

[ehrnst]

11. I'll withold judgement until I find out if...

1. The weapons were purchased legally.

2. This guy had a history of mental illness or behavior that should have prevented him from legally purchasing a weapon.

If one and two are shown to be true, then I would say it is a problem within our system of regulation that is at issue.

[Atman]

15. I don't argue that there is a problem with our system of regulation.

Buying guns at open gun shows at the civic center, for example...WTF? I'm not saying we should just be able to buy an arsenal. I'm just saying that, everything else being equal (whatever that term means), it ain't the guns. It's the people. People who want to do harm will find a way to do harm.

[RegieRocker]

12. Any murder has a mental illness

you are correct.

[get the red out]

14. A lot of help is needed

There are a LOT of people in this country not getting the mental health care they need. Most will never harm another human being but simply suffer horribly in a society that can't and won't begin to address how to help them. It is a scandal we need to wake up to and start looking for ways to help. We are shameful in how the mentally ill are ignored, dumped, and despised.

[Atman]

17. +100

Spot on.

[w8liftinglady]

16. no arguement here.

I was relieved,actually, to find out the kid has no military service history.
His mom in Ca apparently knew immediately that it was him (she contacted police).
It's a very tragic example of what has happened to mental health in America.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/james-holmes-dark-knight-theater-shooting_n_1688944.html

[JonLP24]

18. It may or may not be popular

but I doubt it's the issue, anymore than it's about guns.

For it to be true, there would high rates of violent crime when they are far more likely to be victims than perps. Still, health care should be provided to those who need it.

[onehandle]

19. It's both.

And they seem to go hand in hand.

[Atman]

25. I don't agree, which I think I made clear in my op.

If you are mentally ill and you are not getting help, if "the system" has cut you off because you have a pre-existing condition, or your local clinic has shut down, or if you are simply messed up and don't realize you're messed up, you will still carry out the violent act in your fantasies. No gun available from Cabella's or the local gun shop? It isn't tough to make a cannon out of a lead pipe. The terrorists in the Middle East have proven that. Having a gun didn't make this event happen. Having ACCESS to a gun didn't make this event happen. The snapped wiring in the gunman's head made this happen, and it was going to happen regardless of the weaponry.

However, if he had access to proper mental heath services -- his mother clearly knew he was severely troubled -- than perhaps he's be in a different place right now. Seeking help, not seeking a lawyer.

[JonLP24]

27. Or more likely

you will live a difficult life and more likely be a victim of a violent crime at some point.

What you describe is me in many ways as I'm mentally ill and haven't had any help in years but I never have violent fantasies.

[spin]

20. Your post reminded me of an incident in Tampa ....

Notorious: A compilation of Tampa Bay's most heinous crimes

By Jamal Thalji and Caryn Baird, Times Staff Writers
In Print: Monday, November 7, 2011

***snip***

• John William "Billy" Ferry Jr. walked into the Clair Mel Winn-Dixie on July 2, 1983, splashed the checkout counter with four gallons of gasoline, sparked his lighter and ran out laughing. The ensuing fireball burned 18 people. Five died: Martha Vance, 23, and her 4-year-old daughter, Jennifer; Melody Darlington, 27, and her niece Misty McCullough, 16; and Leigh Carter, 20. A jury rejected his insanity defense, but his death sentence was later overturned. Ferry, 58, will serve five consecutive life terms — after his 30-year sentence for arson expires in 2015.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/notorious-a-compilation-of-tampa-bays-most-heinous-crimes/1200386

[reformist2]

21. We need to reopen the looney bins, and put a few million people in them.

[Sam1]

38. Ah, yes

society becomes the obsessives taking care of the compulsives.

[unblock]

24. the likelihood that the shooter would have sought and gotten mental health treatment is slim.

even assuming widespread and free availability of high-quality mental health treatment (many huge assumptions here), among the interesting features of many forms of mental illness are various forms of denial or other mental barriers to accepting or staying in treatment.

the rest of your post is a ringing endorsement for doing nothing to address the situation.

yes, there will always be nut jobs.
yes, there will always be motivation for violence.

but many factors conspire to make conditions right for (a) violence to be lethal (b) the number of casualties to be high. and it's absolutely negligent social policy to be as derelict as our society is in making any serious effort to mitigate these.


to my mind, one of the biggest factors is not guns per se, but "gun romance". they myths we have about shooting people, gloriously stomping out evil or being a hero by killing bad guys or standing up for some principal with deadly force, etc. all of these myths are readily seen as over-dramatic hollywood excess by the vast majority of viewers of violent movies, but they're easily twisted and misapplied in the minds of a few people.

if our society viewed guns as nothing special, mere hunting tools, and didn't glorify their use in movies and so on, these incidents would be more rare and involve fewer casualties and less lethality. they'd likely draw upon some other myth to express their pain or frustration or whatever. would they still commit crimes? sure, but they would necessarily be mass killings, and they might not even be violent ones, or they might be self-directed violence. not that suicide is a complete "win", but it's better than mass killings, certainly.

[Atman]

33. I don't think we're in much disagreement.

However, listen to what you're saying...

Apparently, we need to more thoroughly regulate MOVIES, tv crime shows, and video games.

First of all, I have long been an advocate for some sort of control over video games. I am in the advertising business, and I know what it means to be put an image in front of a person and replay it over and over. It draws you in, it sucks out your brain, it makes you comply...that the entire purpose. To deny this is just ridiculous. Otherwise, there would be no advertising. Video games and movies are just a form of advertising.

BUT...am I willing to go so far as saying we all have to watch nothing but the Oprah channel? Or maybe Hallmark?

It is vastly complex issue. Too complex to just say "outlaw the damned guns." If/when you do, those with violent fantasies will just invent another violent fantasy.

[unblock]

61. my point is that you're wrong about the level of violent fantasy.

i think violent fantasy being such a prevalent part of our entertainment (and violent reality being such a prevalent part of our news) is part of what leads to a higher level of violent expression, mass killings in particular.

if we could somehow lower the level of violent fantasy, i think we would lower the level of violent expression.

i'm not saying i have the answer (far from it) and i'm certainly not in general eager to have the government regulate speech.

but hollywood has gotten completely ridiculous just in terms of bullet counts in movies. it's amazing to go back to an older movie such as butch cassidy and the subdance kid and compare it to, say, terminator or total recall. the body count / bullet count just became nutso at some point.

it has become a crutch for creating thinking in hollywood. earlier movies had comparatively minimal violence end yet were quite entertaining. moreover, the violence wasn't always the glory moment -- perhaps even more important.

consider charles bronson shooting the bad guy at the end of "ten to midnight" or "dirty harry" and his "well do ya? punk?" shooting.
glorious, victorious, justified, dramatic shooting in revenge and justice for the crimes commited by the guy at the wrong end of the gun.

compare this to "the sting", where redford and newman get revenge against a killer not by shooting him but by conning him out of a ton of money. there's violence in the movie (luther gets shot and killed at the beginning) but that's not the glory moment. instead, it's a tragedy that must be avenged.

the different treatment of violence i think has a big impact on how people process and think about violence. a movie like the sting would not be expected to be the cause of violence (cons, sure; but violence, not so much). at least, certainly not to the extent of some of ahhnold's movies.

i certainly think it's quite possible to be thoroughly entertained without violence, or with minimal violence, or with violence that's not glorified. many murder mysteries don't even show the killing; they're all about the hunt and arrest of the killer.

[patrice]

29. Mental & Behavioral Health PARITY in the PPACA - N-O-W!

[coalition_unwilling]

31. Society recognizes a general public interest is served in licensing the

operators of motor vehicles. I fail to see why a similar licensing requirement for firearms would be inappropriate or objectionable.

As to your larger point that mental illness is the root cause here, I have to agree. But I would argue that it is almost a matter of 'social psychology' (rather than personal) that makes these actions permissible. We invade and occupy countries on the flimsiest of pretexts, we assassinate people without even the trappings of due process, we let people drown and maybe even starve to death but then we act surprised, shocked and horrified when an individual acts out these societal norms?

The 60s activist H. Rap Brown said it best: "violence is as American as cherry pie." Brown's own biography illustrates the truth of his statement.

[Atman]

37. There aren't licensing requirements for firearms?

When I inquired here in Connecticut, they told me that I could buy a long arm with a short waiting period, but to purchase a handgun, I needed to take a pistol course and there was a two-week waiting period.

When I got my drivers license, I walked in, took a short test, and walked out with my license less than an hour later.

And if I was so inspired, I could have then driven my car at high speed, right through a school playground.



.

[coalition_unwilling]

58. Just to be clear, I am in full agreement with your larger point in your OP and its title. And

I do not like, nor do I own, any firearms. So I would applaud any state like CT that mandates some form of coursework in firearm safety as predicate to a license.

I totally dig your larger point.

[LynneSin]

32. Then good gun background checks would have shown that and maybe he wouldn't have had guns

Just saying.

[Atman]

39. What is a "good" gun background check?

According to DU, people think we all know one and other just from our posts. Do they look at your FB page? What if you've never been in "the system?" What is a "good" background check, and how much personal information do you want us all to surrender in order to make us all safe from the one lone lunatic?

[LynneSin]

49. What is a good driver's ed test? What is a good SAT test?

Nothing is perfect.

But our system is way too lax in regards to guns. Someone here posted that 'Guns are Human Rights'. Well guess what - my being able to live is a human right too. And no one in this world has the right to take that away from me.

And speaking of cars, I can't get a drivers license until I show that I understand the laws and pass a drivers test. Same thing if I want to drive a Tractor Trailer, ride a motorcycle, pilot a plane etc etc. So personally I think if someone wants to own a gun they should go thru the same training and testing.

Again it's not perfect but it could improve a broken system.

[Atman]

57. I think I pointed out that that is the case...

"...if I want to drive a Tractor Trailer, ride a motorcycle, pilot a plane etc etc. So personally I think if someone wants to own a gun they should go thru the same training and testing."

I don't know what it is like in other states, but in Connecticut, as I stated, we have to take a pistol course and wait two weeks. Less restrictive for long arms (shotguns and hunting weapons). Two weeks! For my driver's license, I had to read a pamphlet, and I got my license it less than an hour.

.

[LynneSin]

60. Well then I'm arguing with the wrong person - my bad

but in other states they don't have anything like that.

[hack89]

42. States are not reporting mental health cases to the Criminal Background Check System

the states are responsible for updating federal databases used for gun checks. They are doing a piss poor job of it.

Analysis of FBI data showed that millions of records of seriously mentally ill people and drug abusers are missing from the NICS database because of lax and inconsistent reporting among the states.

Ohio has identified 26,876 mental health cases and forwarded those since the state passed a law in 2004. But 23 states and the District of Columbia have submitted fewer than 100 mental health records to the federal database.

Seventeen states submitted fewer than 10 mental health records, and four states haven’t submitted any records.

Substance abuse records also are underreported nationwide, and while many Ohio drug abusers show up in NICS when arrested and convicted, others fall through the cracks.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/media-center/dayton_daily_news_112811.shtml

[Atman]

52. There are some pretty serious privacy restrictions.

HIPPA laws are very strict. You can't just give out someone's health records, not matter who it is that is asking for them. Obviously, there are people who access them if wanted. But they're not going to be handed out to a local gun retailer.

[4th law of robotics]

95. Doesn't sound like he had any previous diagnoses of mental illness

how would a background check have caught something that wasn't there?

[Romulox]

35. Growing up poor, the medical care everyone did without: dental, optical, MENTAL HEALTH. ACA didn't

fix that.

[LonePirate]

36. Gun obsession is a mental illness.

[Posteritatis]

80. What other political stances that you dislike are in fact medical problems? (nt)

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. Maybe not in our lifetime, but I am sure that one day they will tie every single criminal behavior

to an abnormality in specific gene, part of the brain, physiological makeup, whatever.

[Loudly]

54. As long as you're bringing health care into this

If one can suddenly suffer bullets entering one's body through no fault of one's own, the right to free nationalized health care must necessarily be viewed as a 2nd Amendment right.

[Atman]

59. Very, very interesting point.

[nolabear]

62. It's both. As a mental health professional I have some perspective.

First, I certainly agree that anyone who would commit such a horrendous act is broken. In spite of what some tend to imagine, we are not only individuals, we are a species, and we are an interdependent one. The definition of "health" in our world, imo, includes caring for ourselves as individuals and having an investment in the health of the whole.

I sometimes see people who feel separate from the rest of humanity. They might have personality disorders, psychotic features, paranoid disorders, a host of diagnosable, reality-bending mental illnesses. They sometimes speak of hurting themselves or others. If that is the case, THE FIRST THING I am compelled, legally and personally, to do it do assess their access to means. Making it as hard as possible for a person to do harm to anyone is the first line of defense against this kind of tragedy.

I know this person isn't the kind who's inclined to seek counseling. But it doesn't change the fact that a mentally ill person acts out according to how they are able to, according to what they can get their hands on. Now I don't know the solution, and I won't paint eveyone who has and uses guns with the same broad brush. But having them easily available made this sick individual able to act out his craziness in a profound and shattering way.

My heart goes out to the families and friends of his victims, and all who have suffered as a result of sick people being able to manifest that terrible, terrible illness.

[mnhtnbb]

67. You have to suppose that other cultures have the same incidence of mental illness that we do.

So, access to means to carry out violence against others becomes the issue, as
well as access to mental health services so that people don't go off the deep
end and accomplish this kind of thing.

It's complicated...but I have no doubt that access to guns is NOT the only
issue.

[n2doc]

63. Not only do they want it not treated, they feed the illness

They constantly agitate people, feed on their worst fears, encourage selfishness and lack of empathy, and hatred for 'the other'. Revenge fantasies are their specialty.

And in a nation of 300 million+ people, some are going to really run with those thoughts.

[Marr]

65. I really don't understand this argument.

Of course people who go on shooting rampages must be a bit... mentally unusual. So? They're not going anywhere, and even if treatment were available, many would not avail themselves of it. Saying "it's mental illness, not access to guns" changes nothing, since we'll never be rid of mental illness.

Still, having said that, I think our problem is a whole lot deeper than gun laws or mental health care. It's our paranoid, frightened culture-- and I have absolutely no idea what you do about that.

[Posteritatis]

85. People like having something to direct their backlash urges at

By and large, people suffering from mental illness are already beaten into being a more passive, safer (politically and otherwise) target than other groups.

It's why every time something like this happens people pour out of the woodwork to demand that anyone who's so much as seen a therapist start losing various rights.

[GarroHorus]

69. Bravo n/t

[grahamhgreen]

71. So, the mentally ill should not be allowed access to guns.

[Progressive dog]

72. yeah, let's make Psychoanalysis of eveyone mandatory

When you've got something broken in your brain it's not easy to find or fix.
If we're looking for a solution, rather than a scape goat, then the obvious answer is to at least regulate gun and ammunition sales.

[Bertha Venation]

73. "it is the mental illness, which the GOP doesn't want treated. No health care for the poor."

Excellent angle. This should be expanded upon. Unfortunately, I haven't the ability to do so.

[AtheistCrusader]

74. SINGLE PAYER with MENTAL HEALTH COVERAGE.

There's your solution.

It's not going to catch everyone. Jared Loughner had access to medical coverage through his mother's job, and he didn't go, didn't get it. Why? Who knows, but increased coverage can ONLY help.

Maybe some slightly lower bars for mental health evaluation as well, so we can actually trip the automatic legal bars to firearm purchase and ownership under certain circumstances. Right now, it is very difficult to get even a person who clearly desperately needs it, an involuntary evaluation. That needs to change somewhat. I know there is some potential for abuse, but some people need help for issues that lead them to believe they don't want help.

I know a manic depressive that hated her meds, didn't want to take them at all, but now that she's worked through her problems, in retrospect she's glad she did. But at the time, holy shit she HATED that stuff.

[otohara]

76. Yes and It's The GUNS TOO

mentally ill guy without guns is better than one with.

[wryter2000]

84. Thank you

Why does it have to be either or? It's mentally ill people with guns. We should be treating mental illness, but we could also limit the kinds of weapons people can get. Who reallly needs a "semi-automatic" weapon?

[Doctor_J]

103. yes most sane people believe both sould be dealt with

the gun nuts, OTOH, refuse to discuss that part of it.

[Tejas]

77. Don't completely agree but thank you.

Thank you for taking the time to type such a rational piece without snarking every other sentence.

[lilithsrevenge12]

78. I've always had problems with mental health

and I can honestly say between the amount of people living on the street with mental disabilities, and the benefits I receive from my insurance company, they have placed the safety and health of us at the bottom of the totem pole.

[riverbendviewgal]

79. One in Five Americans are mentally ill.

This only makes one payer health care for all Americas so important.

Only about 60 percent of people with mental illness get treatment each year, according to the report, and whites and Native Americans were more likely to seek help than African-Americans, Latinos and Asians.
Researchers drew the findings from nearly 70,000 surveys on mental health and addiction among children and adults.
“Mental illnesses can be managed successfully, and people do recover,” Pamela S. Hyde, head of Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, said in a news release. “Mental illness is not an isolated public health problem. Cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and obesity often co-exist with mental illness and treatment of the mental illness can reduce the effects of these disorders. The Obama Administration is working to promote the use of mental health services through health reform. People, families and communities will benefit from increased access to mental health services.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/01/19/1-in-5-americans-suffer-from-mental-illness/

[BlueMTexpat]

86. Good point about mental illness, failure to treat it and our dysfunctional society generally.

But so long as any idiot can freely purchase a gun and carry it anywhere (just WTF does anyone sane need to carry a gun into a movie theater for anyway?), guns will continue to provide easy access to doing harm to multiple others.

I was born and raised in a state (Montana) where many people learn how to use guns properly from the time they are young. I myself have never felt the need for one and absolutely refuse to have one in my home. But I recognize that the overwhelming majority of people I know who do own and use guns do so responsibly. For the most part, they are people who live in rural areas and use guns for hunting or predator control purposes.

As an "urban" dweller now, there is no place for a gun in my lifestyle - indeed in most urban lifestyles, IMO, unless one is a police officer or in a similar occupation. Those who own guns and who live in urban areas are statistically much more likely to be wounded or killed by the same guns that they supposedly bought for "protection" or to accidentally harm or kill someone else - even a family member - who is entirely innocent of any crime whatsoever.

[cbdo2007]

87. It is the Mental Illness + guns

Like Jared Loughner, why was this dude able to get guns? I know, you can always get them black market, but I'm guessing he has a psychological history and probably just went to Gun World and stocked up on these without them delving into it.

[joeybee12]

89. Unrec...it's both...a mentally unstable person who had access to guns...

Nice try, though....creative...but false.

[no_hypocrisy]

91. IMO, you can slow down the process, but there is very little one can do to stop a

mentally unbalanced individual from getting access to guns. Yes, there are laws that commercial/retail sellers can't sell firearms to a purchaser who exhibits mental instability or illness. But first, the dealer may not be able to discern mental problems from just normal chitchat about the weapon. Then, the purchaser has other options than to buy retail. There's gun shows, private purchases from a gun owner, illegal purchase from another illegal gun owner.

What gets me is the sheer arsenal of weapons amassed by the Aurora shooter.

[Atman]

105. What gets me is how he was dressed when he entered the theater.

So who needs regulation? Do we start requiring psych training for movie theater ticket takers? Seriously...this guy walked into a theater dressed in what was essentially combat gear. He had a bullet-proof vest, throat armor, more than our government supplies to our soldiers in Afghanistan...and he was allowed into a movie theater! It this a gun law or a STUPID law? Are we really depending upon kids making $7.50 an hour to protect us from crazed killers? Where does it begin, and where does it stop?

[bobthedrummer]

97. Lots of "fucking psychos" are actually neuroscience/mental health "professionals"

Fwiw, I don't have a problem with the 2nd Amendment either.
Mind Justice
http://www.mindjustice.org

[bongbong]

100. Mental Illness types

Another type of mental illness is when you think you need a gun to walk around in public.