The NRA has blood on its hands

[Hugabear]

The NRA has opposed practically every single proposed law that would make it more difficult to commit mass killings. For example, they've opposed bans on "cop-killer" bullets and large-capacity magazines and waiting periods. As far as I'm concerned, the NRA has just as much blood on its hands as the people who are actually pulling the triggers.

[NYC_SKP]

1. Rush Limbaugh has blood on his hands. (nt)

[Hugabear]

2. As does the entire "Tea Party" anti-government movement

They have all ratcheted up the rhetoric to the point where violence is inevitable.

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. Tampa is just 5 weeks away.

[NYC_SKP]

5. .

[malaise]

17. Scumbaugh failed to show up for his program today

according to another DUer.

[MrMickeysMom]

63. Ditto...

(sorry about that)

It's true. I remarked this elsewhere by saying you ought to see if there is evidence of a one of his listeners... I think I was taken the wrong way, because I said, "check for evidence of sponsor products in the suspects medicine cabinet.

It's really to say that Limbaugh and the NRA combined give the weak minded who are loyal to listening to "hate radio" a reason to go ballistic with their ample supply of bullets and guns.

[Ruby the Liberal]

3. An AK47.

An AK47.

An AK47.

No words to describe what I am feeling this morning.

[Johnny Rico]

6. I oppose bans on "cop-killer" bullets and large-capacity magazines and waiting periods as well.

Apparently, by your standards I'm just as responsible for the deaths of the theater goers as the person who actually pulled the trigger.

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. 2 + 2 =/= 5

But would love to hear the defense for "cop killer" bullets, automatic weapons, high capacity magazines and waiting periods.

Feel free to take them one at a time.

[Johnny Rico]

10. You betcha.

But would love to hear the defense for "cop killer" bullets,

The proposed law against "cop killer" bullets would have outlawed any cartridge capable of penetrating a ballistic vest. This would have the practical effect of outlawing virtually every big game cartridge ever invented, from the lowly .22 Hornet to the .600 Nitro Express. If your goal is to outlaw all hunting cartridges, then this is a good law. That's not my goal...so it's not a good law.

automatic weapons

Fully automatic weapons are perfectly legal to own in most states, and the owners of such weapons are the most responsible gun owners in the USA. There have been a total of two...repeat two homicides committed with legally owned full auto weapons since 1934, and one of those was by a law enforcement officer! Crimes with legally owned machine guns are a problem that simply doesn't exist. The only reason I don't own any is because of the absurd 1986 ban on manufacture of full auto weapons for private citizens, which has resulted in a massive increase in the cost of such weapons. A full auto M16 goes for something in the neighborhood of
$10K these days. In a free market it would have a price more like $1K to $2K.

high capacity magazines

First you'd have to define "high capacity". What arbitrary number would you prefer? Most states which prohibit magazine capacity limit them to 10 rounds, although I believe it's 15 rounds in at least one state.

I can reload a magazine in a second or two. Does it really matter to you if I use a normal capacity magazine in my AR-15 that holds 30 rounds instead of 10 or 15, given that? What does it matter if my Glock holds 15 rounds instead of 10?

waiting periods.

A citizen shouldn't have to wait to exercise a Constitutional right. In any case, it's a solution in search of a problem.

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. No offense, but it sounds like Napoleon (LBM) syndrome to me.

Regular bullets aren't good enough - we need to legalize anything that fits in a gun. May not be immediately lethal with one shot otherwise. Check.

Guns are expensive, which is a problem. Hurts the poor. Check.

Can't have a weapon unless it can take out dozens of people without reloading. Laziness. Check.

The founders used single shot muskets and called for "well regulated militias" so we should have unlimited, unchecked and immediate rights to weapons capable of killing dozens of people in mere minutes. See title. Check.

Thanks for confirming that there are no upsides/benefits to this list other than noted.

[Patiod]

14. Your fourth paragraph: Check!

The founders used single shot muskets and called for "well regulated militias" so we should have unlimited, unchecked and immediate rights to weapons capable of killing dozens of people in mere minutes. See title. Check.

It's a sad day when even people here on DU argue for 100% access by everyone to any weapon in every situation.

[Johnny Rico]

15. It would be so much more interesting if you actually addressed my points...!

I pointed out, for instance, that the "cop-killer" law would have outlawed virtually all hunting ammunition.

Do you still support it, given that?

I pointed out that legally owned full auto weapons are virtually never used in crime. Given that, do you still support such onerous restrictions on them?

Is there any point in continuing, or do you just want to snark some more?

[Ruby the Liberal]

16. I don't get off on gun porn, so you are right.

I already know more about the blasted things than I care to - especially the nuances on which bullets will kill people how much faster than others. Do. Not. Care.

If you feel the need to "secure" yourself gun that can fire 30+ rounds without reloading in order to feel "safe", then all the more power to you. I choose not to have that in my life and am all the happier that I don't have to worry about waking up and having someone close to me getting their 15 minutes in the newspaper over an "oops".

Color me a northeastern limo liberal, and I support the second amendment. I just have no use for those who seem to think that means "no limits".

Later.

[cleanhippie]

26. No, just anti-gun porn.

I think your arguments were summed up nicely a couple of posts ago: solutions looking for problems.

Lets chat again when you are able to keep your emotionally charged rhetoric in check. Until then, meaningful dialogue will never become a reality.

[Johnny Rico]

29. Glad to see you admit it. Well then, by your own admission:

If you feel the need to "secure" yourself gun that can fire 30+ rounds without reloading in order to feel "safe", then all the more power to you.

So you're not advocating restrictions on magazine capacity. Good...we agree!

I choose not to have that in my life

Good for you! I support your choice. We agree!

I support the second amendment. I just have no use for those who seem to think that means "no limits".

Since by all appearances you're no longer advocating the limits in question, that fact that you have "no use" for people such as me in utterly inconsequential. So while we don't agree, I'm now completely indifferent to your opinion. Yay!

[Chorophyll]

19. I still support the "cop-killer" law, given everything that you've said.

Yep.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. It's not a real thing.

Rifle rounds go through body armor. Period. If the round has enough energy to humanely kill a deer, without a shitload of needless suffering, stumbling, bleeding and pain, it will go through a police officer's vest.

Even those old lever-action 30-30's in the westerns you may have seen as a child. Zips right on through.

They are also used in approximately 3% of all murders committed with a firearm.

Your problem lies elsewhere.

[Chorophyll]

35. My problem lies in this: we have too many gun deaths in this country.

I'm in favor of anything that will reduce that number, including better care and intervention for the mentally ill among us.

I'm not especially enamored of hunting, either. So that's not my problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Yesterday, 80 million americans didn't do anything wrong with their guns.

(likely, the number is higher than that)


Cop killer bullets is meaningless hyperbole. Attempting to craft any meaningful legislation on firearms regulation, built on such ignorance, is doomed to failure.

[Chorophyll]

45. Okay. Tell ya what?

I'm for banning most guns, not just specific types of bullets. So we need not carry the "cop killer" argument any further.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Ok.

Which ones wouldn't you ban?

[Chorophyll]

51. Sorry Atheist Crusader,

no gun porn from me to you.

If I had my druthers, I'd ban 'em all. Move on to someone else now.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. I asked to get a sense of your criteria.

Since it sounded like the allowed list would be shorter than the banned list.

I guess my guess was correct, but to a larger degree.

[Johnny Rico]

30. I assume you understand that such a law would outlaw all hunting ammunition.

I'm curious why you think that would be a good thing.

[Chorophyll]

34. Works for me. nt

[Marinedem]

37. Why?

I can't wait to hear this.

[Chorophyll]

44. I'm willing to sacrifice your hunting hobby so that more humans might live.

How's that?

[DiverDave]

24. A constitutional RIGHT???

Oh, and what MILITIA are you a member of?

Waiting to see if you are a mental patient is the RIGHT thing to do.
But, OH NO NOT FOR YOU huh?

sickening.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. According to federal code, if you are a male between the ages of 17 and 45, you are.

Automatically.

[upaloopa]

33. Do gun apologists carry that kind of bull shit on cards and rattle it off anytime a rational person

tries to discuss the killing of people?

I find your defenses disgusting! Do you not give a shit that all those people were killed and wounded and the country wants to do something about iT? Screw your bull shit replies and pro gun thinking!

[Johnny Rico]

42. Way to keep the discussion rational!

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

[upaloopa]

61. Your regurgitating NRA talking points is using your sense of reason?

[Johnny Rico]

69. Boy, it sure is easier to simply dismiss someone's arguments rather than refute them!

Why don't you try the latter...it would give you a lot more credibility!

[lapfog_1]

57. My cousins go deer hunting every year

and usually get the legal limit.

Of course, they don't use "big game" cartridges in the "semi-automatic" guns with "high capacity" clips.

They hunt with bows and arrows.

Please tell me of the last "lone bowman" killing dozens of people with his/her compound bow and "cop killer" arrows from a high capacity quiver.

Banning semi-automatic guns and cop killer bullets and high capacity clips... why don't we try it for 10 years and see what happens... if, after the 10 year period, we still have these mass killings using handguns or kitchen knives... then fine, I'll vote for a constitutional amendment clarifying the 2nd amendment to forever legalize all hand held firearms... if, on the other hand, after 10 years the number of these incidents drops by 50 percent, we permanently ban on these weapons and bullets and clips.

[PavePusher]

74. What are these "cop killer bullets" you speak of?

Can you define what they are?

[lapfog_1]

76. here ya go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon-coated_bullet

[PavePusher]

78. Not sure what your point is, as the article clearly debunks the "cop killer bullet" myth.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. It does not appear automatic weapons were involved.

Also, the NRA crafted the legislation in 1934 that tightly controlled automatic weapons (1934 National Firearms Act)

so.... yawn.

[Hoyt]

53. Goes to show you how lethal, semi-autos are. You know the weapons the gun culture must have to live.

[Johnny Rico]

56. Are you advocating the banning of all semiautomatic firearms?

[PavePusher]

72. Please explain what you mean by "cop killer bullets".

I bet $5 you don't know what you're talking about.

[Ruby the Liberal]

75. Repeating what the post I was responding to said.

Is following that path so difficult?

[ananda]

7. It's hard to believe that our society has come to this.

Bad assault guns, horrible bullets, and inciting rhetoric with all the
hatetalk media and politicians.

I don't know if the gunman was politically motivated or not, but
the political and hate rhetoric pervading the media and brainwashing
susceptible people certainly contributes, particularly when rightwing
lawmakers in the pocket of the NRA allow anyone to gain access
to those kinds of weapons.

[MadHound]

9. We all have blood on our hands,

We have created a society that is one huge pressure cooker, and in such a pressure cooker, people eventually snap. We need to address this problem, this root problem, not just the symptoms of guns.

[Johnny Rico]

11. I disagree.

The only person with blood on their hands in this case is, as far as I can tell, the person who actually committed the murders.

[uponit7771]

22. Nope, there are those who want to smartly regulate fire-arms and are fighting to do so

[cleanhippie]

27. Kindly point out any "smart" regulations that have been proposed.

[coalition_unwilling]

58. Ding, ding, ding. Bravo! I do think there are varying levels of culpability but I agree

that this is a societal problem and not just a hardware problem.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

12. Watch this video at 0:22 seconds in...

[Chorophyll]

18. I concur.

It's long past time to get rid of them. Or at least get their blood-money out of our politicians pockets.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Cop Killer bullets don't exist.

All pistol ammuntion that is armor-piercing is verboten for civilian possession in the united states. It also doesn't kill very well, because it doesn't expand. Try again.

[permatex]

31. I'm just shaking my head at the ignorance in this thread.

Most here have no idea of what they're talking about.
Like the cop killer bullets, any bullet can kill if placed correctly.
The easy availability of assault rifles? More ignorance.
30 round mags., I can change a mag in appox 1-2 seconds. We know that the Virginia Tech shooter, Cho, used 10 round mags and was able to kill 32 people including himself when finally confronted by ARMED personell.

and my very favorite, the 2A was written when there were only single shot muzzle loader rifles.
Well, then, they should get rid of their computers because back then all they had were quill pens.

Unbelievable.

[Ruby the Liberal]

36. Do you guys forget to pick up your talking point cheatsheet this morning?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=980522

[permatex]

40. Apparently you guys didn't forget Brady and MAIG and VPC

talking points cheatsheet either.
You already admitted that you don't know that much about the subject, so why argue from a emotional stand point rather than learn the facts?

[AtheistCrusader]

41. No such thing is necessary.

Cop killer bullets is a meaningless term.

[RegieRocker]

52. Yes the impenetrability

of minds on the extreme sides of both spectrums are identical in thinking.

[permatex]

55. I can 100% agree with you on that.

I'm all for background checks on all firearms transactions, including private sales, I'm all for safe storage of firearms, I'm all for the carrying of concealed weapons w/proper training and a license. There are other measures I'm all for.

[99Forever]

28. So do all members of the NRA.

They made this situation not just possible, but inevitable.

SHAME ON YOU GUNFREAKS.

Fuck the NRA.

[patrice]

32. Agree. & Not just in the USA: millions of guns shipped into Mexico too. nt

[apocalypsehow]

39. Not just the NRA: every single person who supports private ownership of handguns without

(1) registration, (2) pre-ownership mental health screening (paid for by the person wishing to own the Phallic Replacement Device), and (3) mandatory safe storage laws has blood on their hands.

Every person who supports "concealed carry" laws for private citizens has blood on their hands.

[permatex]

43. I emphatically reject you ridiculous

portrait of us legal gun owners. I support concealed carry laws and will work hard to make sure they are here to stay.
Your blood on hands is so extreme its breathtaking.
The only one with blood on their hands is the shooter.

[apocalypsehow]

46. "I emphatically reject you ridiculous." That's nice. n/t.

[permatex]

49. Thank you n/t.

[hack89]

59. I like to drink beer

is the blood of all the victims of drunk drivers on my hands?

[apocalypsehow]

60. Every time I think I've seen the limit when it comes to absurd analogies

from our "pro-gun progressives," another one comes along and proves me wrong. As here.

A can of beer = a loaded handgun. Yep; they're just alike.

Good grief.

[hack89]

62. Misuse of alcohol = misuse of a gun. Both kill, correct? nt

[HockeyMom]

64. Only the person drinking

The only exception is if the drunk is driving.

[hack89]

66. And my post specifically referred to drunk drivers, correct?

so - given the easy access to alcohol and its glorification in America, do everyday drinkers have blood on their hands if they support the present alcohol laws?

[apocalypsehow]

65. Incorrect. But, then, you knew that already. This doubling-down on an absurdity is just

for fun & games on your part, and we both know it.

[hack89]

67. So societal mores and practices have no impact on drunk driving deaths?

easy access to alcohol and its glorification don't contribute to drunk driving deaths? Only the drunk driver is responsible for the people he kills?

[apocalypsehow]

70. Further stretching of the original absurd analogy, i.e, can of beer = loaded handgun,

get's only more absurd in the so-stretching.

Shovels, holes, ceasing digging, all of that.

[hack89]

71. You are very simple minded, aren't you?

I don't think I can dumb it down any more so lets call it a day.

[apocalypsehow]

73. Now the resort to sheer *ad hominem*, right on cue and not unexpected.

"so lets call it a day"

[bongbong]

77. Yup

> rom our "pro-gun progressives,"

As you're probably aware, a fair amount of these are sent by somebody to try to make "GUNS! WONDERFUL GUNS" become more acceptable to Liberals by sliding the gun-Overton window rightwards, and by incessant repeating of NRA Talking Point (AKA lies) (AKA the "Big Lie&quot .

It's hilarious (and obvious) how many of the Usual Suspects only post one type of thing on DU: Pro-gun Talking Points in just the gungeon.

[slackmaster]

47. The NRA did not block any of those measures all by itself

[DisgustipatedinCA]

50. Fuck the rightwing terrorist organization called the NRA, and anyone who still supports them.

[Erose999]

68. Take the NRA's guns. Melt them down into dildo's. And FUCK THE NRA UP ITS LILLY WHITE ASS!!