I, for one, am glad Bowe Bergdahl isn't going into prison. I didn't want to feel

[lindysalsagal]

like my representative government did that to him after sending him to hell.

Ok, I'm not a military person: My family isn't a military family. I know my opinion doesn't matter. I know I may not understand the implications, etc.

But the guy was already in a cage for 4 years, and that should be enough. Really. Seriously.

And he'll have a hard time getting on with his life, anyway.

Personally, I doubt his release would change any other soldier's decisions at all. This is not going to function as an incentive for or against anything.

None of us knows what was going on in his mind when he went over the line, but I'm going to assume he really wasn't in his right mind and wasn't intending to do anything to anyone. War breaks people. I'm sorry for the damage it causes those who serve.

Call me a softie, I'm relieved he's going home today. And I'm glad the idiot in the white house can't change it.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/03/politics/bowe-bergdahl-sentenced/index.html

[Squinch]

1. I agree.

[Wellstone ruled]

2. First thing first,

the Military Justice System worked despite negative influence from the so called Commander in Chief.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

3. So am I.

[il_lilac]

4. Likewise

I'm relieved to see I'm not alone.

[thegoose]

5. Me too

No one really knows if or how he "deserted," but he for sure had been tortured long enough. Donnie Dump can crow all he wants about the injustice, but he's the one who needs to be locked up for traitorous actions against the United States, for God's sake!!!

[Baconator]

10. There's no 'if' about it...

He admitted it as part of his guilty plea.

[Blue_Tires]

6. His case was no doubt helped by telling the Army

Everything he learned/overheard while in Taliban captivity all that time...

[Baconator]

9. His defense brought that up actually...

http://wapo.st/2znHhc3?tid=ss_mail&utm_term=.0688bb7b78ef

Bergdahl produced a ‘gold mine’ of intelligence for the government, experts testify

FORT BRAGG, N.C. — Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl has provided a “gold mine” of useful intelligence about the militants who held him captive for years in Pakistan, and his experience has injected valuable lessons into the military’s program that instructs troops in how to avoid and escape capture, experts testified during Bergdahl’s sentencing Tuesday.

Those experts said Bergdahl’s decision to abandon his post in Afghanistan in 2009 produced an unintended consequence: His detailed recollections of his captors’ tactics, methods of detainment and other information were so valuable that intelligence agencies and military doctrine were dramatically improved, potentially adding a new foil to the factors being weighed by a military judge to determine Bergdahl’s punishment, if any.

Terrence Russell of the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency, the lead Pentagon group for recovering prisoners of war and other captives — which also produces related training and doctrine — testified that Bergdahl’s debriefing contributed to lessons taught to U.S. troops and allied militaries, adding that Bergdahl still has intelligence that has yet to be collected that could help troops in Afghanistan right now.

“Can you give him to me now? I need him now. I needed him three years ago,” Russell said. “The fact I can’t get that information is wrong.” Russell added that he has debriefed more than 120 American captives, more than any other U.S. official.

[Me.]

7. I Agree

He shouldn't have been accepted into the military in the first place.

[Baconator]

8. I'm military...

... and from a military family.

I didn't want him tortured or shot like some of my internet veteran peers were hoping.

I do think he needed to serve a lengthy prison sentence as a consequence for his actions. Missions didn't happen and Afghans and Western partners were injured or killed because of his decision.

When the enemy knows we are spending all of our time, assets and personnel to look for a missing person...? It's an all you can eat buffet.

I've seen it two or three times.

On another related note. I believe once he gets his dishonorable discharge, he loses all medical benefits. I absolutely believe that his body is severely fucked up from 5 years on an Afghan diet with confinement and possible torture.

He might end up wishing he'd gotten those years and some decent medical care.

Last point... I also recognize the responsibility that DoD has in trying to screen out turds like this. He shouldn't have made it past Week 1 of basic.

The reality is that some will fall through the cracks and sometimes they ended causing enormous problems on an international scale.

[shanny]

19. He washed out of basic in the effing Coast Guard before enlisting in the Army.

Why was he there AT ALL? In fact, why are ANY of them there?

[Baconator]

21. Him?

It was a weird time...

The rest of us? Terror, regional stability and the advancement of American interests...

[shanny]

34. I think we need to include a longer time-line.

We seem to spend all our treasure (including the blood of our servicepeople) trying to fix problems we caused in the first place, or promoting causes on behalf of American business interests. Terrorism? Regional stability? This is a region we destabilized, and we use tactics guaranteed to foment more hate and recruit more terrorists. It is almost as if the MIC needed something to do to justify their existence.

A major re-think is in order.

[Baconator]

35. I hate to break it to you...

... but that area has been fucked since long before the Bush Era... or the Washington Era... or the Battle of Hastings...

At a certain point, we either need to get them up to a 'good enough' standard to interact with the rest of the world in a civilized manner or at least have enough presence and influence to keep the riff-raff from being too much of a bother.

That's not just an Afghanistan thing...

That's a regional thing...

[shanny]

36. We need to get them up to a "good enough" standard to interact..."

JHC on a trailer hitch. How many of our, or anybody's, problems with that region have been caused by other people (including us) fucking with their internal politics?

Afghanistan in particular has been the "graveyard of empires" for 2500 years. It was a lousy idea from the gitgo to involve them in our conflict with the USSR, arm them, train them, finance them...and then walk away. We made a lot of friends there.

And, in the wider region, there are many who date the radicalization of Islam to our stupid and short-sighted overthrow of the democratically-elected government of Iran in 1953 (btw, did you know that Iran looked up to us after WWII, and even modeled their constitution on ours?). We--and the UK--didn't want to pay for their oil so we engineered a little "regime change" and installed a brutal dictator. But oh yeah: we were looking out for our interests. Too bad our foresight didn't extend beyond our noses.

If you want to cite history, look past the surface.

[Baconator]

46. You should look past the last century...

They're playing the same fuck fuck games they were 1000 years ago but with cell phones, GPS and IEDs.

[shanny]

48. "graveyard of empires" "2500 years"

what makes you think it is up to us...or any other external power...to dictate how others live? habit? our own exceptional greatness? what?

[Baconator]

50. If they all lived behind a big wall...

.. then fine.

That's not the case so here we are...

[shanny]

62. Really?

How often have Afghanis attacked us here, or anywhere outside of Afghanistan? How about Iraqis?
On the other hand, how many of them have we killed, in their own countries? And why is that?

[murielm99]

59. My family and my husband's family

all have people who have served honorably, sometimes notably, for three generations.

My husband followed this case closely. He felt that Trump's big mouth did have an influence.

He agrees with you that this man should not have made it beyond week one of basic. He opines that Bergdahl will end up committing suicide. As 45 says, "Sad." I do not mean this ironically. The whole thing is sad.

[BadgerMom]

11. Me, too.

[elmac]

12. when u have a criminal and traitor running the country

I can see why the judge didn't throw the book at someone for desertion. Glad he can now get on with his life, I hope the soldiers who were wounded while looking for him can forgive him.

[Alice11111]

54. Exactly. He didn't get 5 deferments. At least, he showed up and tried. He couldn't handle it. It

Doesn't excuse his behavior. I was sicked that DT would have tbe gall to even comment.

[Kirk Lover]

13. He made a terrible decision and he paid the price. Perhaps he should be made to pay back some

of the money the military expended to search for him....just a thought. But I'm not at all disturbed that he didn't get any jail time because he did actually..and it was nowhere near as cushy of a sentence like he would of faced here in the US of A.

[GoCubsGo]

14. Same.

He has already paid the price of his actions, and will likely continue to pay in the foreseeable future. I'm sure he'll be subjected to harassment and death threats until the next target comes along. He'll also have to live with himself for the rest of his life. I don't think he's being let off easy.

[sandensea]

15. Same here.

Yes, it may have been unbecoming of an officer - but who among us wouldn't crack in a situation like that.

Besides: if we jailed Bergdahl, what should we do with the thieving miscreants who sent him - and hundreds of thousands more - to war in the first place?



"Sometimes I feel this bad about what we did." "That much, huh?"

[Alice11111]

53. There are many suicides in the military, and PTSD. His escape route was no different. He is sorry,

genuinely. It's not like he made it to a Caribbean island to sun and drink Pena Coladas. He's paid a heavy price, and he will continue to. Time served, even being a captive & tortured, seems enough. I see the military viewpoint that he exposed the lives of others. I think it was a reasonable decision though.

[sandensea]

56. Well said.

Republicans are being really self-righteous about Bergdahl.

But then, when aren't they.

[Alice11111]

57. Thank you. Yes, by definition, Repubs are self righteous & judgmental.

[EarnestPutz]

16. Your opinion most certainly matters.

In this country military matters are not the sole province of
military personnel. That's why we have civilian leadership.
If you've never been in the military, do not let anyone tell you
that your opinion does not count.

[TomSlick]

17. I'm a retired Army JAG.

My suspicion is that the only reason there was no prison time was Trump popping-off. The military justice system takes unlawful command influence in courts-martial very seriously. The military judge was required to consider the Commander-in-Chief's attempt at unlawful command influence as mitigation. I've been retired long enough that I know nothing about the military judge in this case but my bet is there would have been at least some confinement but for Trump's unlawful command influence.

If Trump wants to know why there was no confinement adjudged, I suggest he look in the mirror.

The military judge made the right call. I'm as proud of the Army JAG Corps as I have been in awhile.

[Baconator]

22. Agree with your assessment...

I think there was something in the works but it went out the window.

[Demsrule86]

26. Well Trump inadvertently helped someone...go figure.

That is ironically delicious.

[Hortensis]

28. Thanks for the input. Very interesting.

I was glad to hear there would be no serious prison term, satisfied that he would be going home without any time at all, and now also glad to know you feel it was the right call.

Do you have any thoughts on his chances of getting his dishonorable discharge overturned? From what I've read about him, it sounds like the Army perhaps shouldn't have accepted him in the first place, but I know nothing about how those determinations are made.

[Ilsa]

29. I know someone who got a

Dishonorable discharge. This person spoke and admitted what he did before getting a lawyer and implicating a person over him, so they used it. It was rough, but he started over, and now has a wonderful career doing something else he likes, and he's appreciated by peers for his excellence.

I hope BB can do the same.

[Hortensis]

31. Glad your guy has been able to move on to a good life.

In this case, Bergdahl's attorney said they will be appealing the dishonorable discharge. Reportedly, this would mainly be about trying to obtain veteran benefits.

Fwiw, CNN back in 2016:

According to an Army Sanity Board evaluation, Bergdahl had schizotypal personality disorder "at the time of the alleged criminal conduct" and now also has post-traumatic stress disorder.

"Though Sgt. Bergdahl did have a severe mental disease or defect at the time of the alleged criminal conduct, he was able to appreciate the nature and quality and wrongfulness of this conduct," said a July 27, 2015, memorandum from the sanity board.

The memo said he does not currently suffer from a mental disease that would render him unable to understand the proceedings.

Clinical-level personality disorders, which by definition chronically affect a person's ability to function adequately in society, are pretty common. That someone who harmed himself terribly, and even predictably, by behaving in ways his fellow service members never would might be diagnosable is not exactly a surprise.

[Ilsa]

32. I hope he can get those benefits, too. It is a public health issue, too.

I agree with you.

[Hortensis]

33. Ilsa, I don't actually have a particular opinion on the DD

at this point. What is customary for these situations, and what people in the military in general feel about it, certainly should come into it. I don't know anything about that.

Totally agree that, if he has mental disability that will keep him from holding a steady job, a civilized nation has a duty to keep him from having to sleep under shrubs and to provide medical and mental healthcare. But veterans' benefits are only one way to do that.

[TomSlick]

37. One thing the dishonorable discharge does is to guarantee an appeal.

Rachel was suggesting last night that Trump continuing to pop-off - that he continues to attempt to exert unlawful command influence - will taint the appeal process just like the Trump comments pre-sentence tainted the court-martial.

I can make the argument that the convening authority (the general officer that ordered the court-martial) ought to at least state in his action that he considered the attempt at unlawful command influence by the Commander-in-Chief. It might be a good idea for the convening authority to consider the on-going unlawful command influence by the C-in-C as a matter in mitigation and reduce the sentence to a bad conduct discharge.

I'm not sure the Army Court will think it is capable of being influenced by Trump's continued statements but all the judges are Army officers and it doesn't look good. I can see the Army Court overturning the DD much like the military judge didn't adjudge confinement.

If I was the appellate defense counsel, I would argue unlawful command influence in the appellate process at least as far up as the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces. The judges in CAAF are civilians with long-term appointments. The argument might fly there.

If nothing else, Trump continuing to pop-off is going to make more work for Army JAGs.

[Hortensis]

39. Thanks for the look into the processes, TomSlick. My husband,

Air Force long ago, also found this very interesting.

"I'm not sure the Army Court will think it is capable of being influenced by Trump's continued statements"

Somehow that sounds very credible, and reassuring.

[TomSlick]

40. Sorry to disappoint.

I didn't look into, I lived it. As I say, I'm a retired Army JAG.

I'm not worried about the Army Court actually being influenced by Trump's drivel. First, I don't think it would happen. Maybe more importantly, the Army Court cannot increase the sentence, it can only decrease.

[Hortensis]

41. No, you gave US a look into. :)

Yes, that would be very important for Bergdahl.

Since Bergdahl is now pretty much a household name I imagine Trump will occasionally be calling for his imprisonment and execution from here on out, such as whenever he's in the mood for approval of vindictive sorts.

[TomSlick]

43. Sorry, I misunderstood.

You're quite welcome.

The military justice system has its issues but it takes unlawful command influence very seriously. That's why it's call unlawful command influence.

[Hortensis]

44. Thank goodness. We especially need that now with

a president who is as contemptuous of limitations on his power as he is clueless about the principles behind them.

[whathehell]

18. Me too.

He apologized, admitted guilt, was imprisoned four years under the Taliban, and then gave a 'gold mine' of intelligence. That's enough.

[Corvo Bianco]

20. A job you can't quit isn't a job.

[Rhiannon12866]

23. I feel the same way.

[JI7]

24. it was the right/best decision considering everything

hopefully he gets some mental health treatment which i think he needed even before he joined the military. and more so now.

[Demsrule86]

25. I grew up in a military family...and I agree with you.

The guy wandered off...it happens all the time in the military...rarely do folks go to jail for this...and he was punished enough for his mistake-punished more really. My sis once dated a guy who jumped ship (Navy) in Hawaii...of course the old man tossed him out of the house when he learned of this...and the guy had a van...dealbreaker with my Dad.

[Not Ruth]

27. Hopefully this case saves lives by convincing people not to serve

[secondwind]

30. My dad served in WW2, my husband served in Vietnam.

I would not wish this on anyone. As a mother and grandmother, I was praying that he could go back home. Enough is enough.

[Adrahil]

38. I cannot agree.

Six people died looking for his sorry ass.

People break, but what about the people who died trying to get him back?

[lindysalsagal]

49. I know. Since the cause is unjustified, all of the damage is a tragedy.

Total mess. Don't know what to tell you except that I was in the anti-war demonstration in 2003 in NYC, screaming that we should not go there at all....

[tonedevil]

58. Do you have more recent information...

than this https://www.stripes.com/news/command-sergeant-major-no-troops-died-searching-for-bergdahl-1.402016
or this https://serialpodcast.org/posts/2016/10/was-anyone-killed-looking-for-bowe-bergdahl-some-hard-evidence-at-long-last because I don't think 6 people died looking for him and we shouldn't spread such falsehoods.

[Adrahil]

63. I am glad to hear that NT

[mountain grammy]

42. I grew up in the military

my husband's a Vietnam vet. We both agree with you. Sad case, enough already.

And, of course your opinion matters.

[LiberalFighter]

45. If circumstances were different I would consider harsher punishment.

But considering that he has mental problems before he was accepted and during. That lays more of the blame on the military.

He didn't from anything I heard collude with the enemy. He was caged for 5 years. He attempted to escape from the Taliban numerous times. What is strange is that the military promoted him to Specialist and then Sergeant while in captivity.

He has been I believe in custody since his release from the Taliban so in essense it has been 8 years total.

So instead of serving 14 years in prison and keeping his military benefits he is dishonorably discharged and loses veterans benefits and other military benefits.

In some way, the discharge might be worse.

[Lotusflower70]

47. Agreed

He was discharged from the Coast Guard because of mental health issues and then accepted into the Army. I think he suffered enough from the torture.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

51. Justice was served... all those years as a prisoner of war was enough.

[underthematrix]

52. I'm so glad he will not spend one more day in jail.

I hope the real story will eventually come out. Trump using the bully pulpit to malign this sick young man was just beyond the pale. I agree justice was done in this case.

[MichMan]

55. His lawyer is insisting he be awarded a POW medal

[aeromanKC]

60. Code Red

Didn't this all start from Bergdahl feeling he was being ostracized in his unit feared a code red of some sort. He left base in an attempt to jump the line of command to tell his side of the story.

[Horse with no Name]

61. I am from a military family

And I agree.
If we can acknowledge that many of our military men and women, through repeated war zone deployments were struggling with these deployments psychologically. True justice should have been measured with true mercy.

[Gothmog]

64. There's a reason presidents don't comment on ongoing criminal matters.

Link to tweet

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F%3Fcom%3Dview_post%26forum%3D1014%26pid%3D1906317