General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMG. I'm in awe of Mueller's investigation team.
I worked in the legal field for decades. I have an idea (just an idea) of the volume of papers, the number of interviews, the amount of analysis of computers and documents, that just three indictments took. They probably drafted tons of documents themselves, timelines, complex spreadsheets following the money (all referenced to banks and properties and accounts).
Add to all that the conclusions they had to draw, the proof they had to line up to get an indictment. Then they had to draft and re-draft these critical indictments, and get them as close to perfect as possible. There are no re-dos.
I'm in awe of the immense task that faced this team in a few short months, and that they got these three critical players indicted (esp. Pappadopoulos).
I wouldn't want Mueller and his team having me in their sights. For all his blustering and accusations and hostility, I can't imagine that Trump isn't losing sleep over this. The hubris of his team lying to the FBI and then to the Special Counsel? Maybe they didn't get how serious this investigation is. But indictments for lying to them ought to get the message across.
lpbk2713
(42,759 posts)So that when all is said and done the Justice Dept can send Trump a nice big fat juicy bill.
Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)...regard the bill as mere pocket change.
Yet as always he will dodge responsibility and insist that someone else pay for the huge stinking, criminal, treasonous mess he and his republican cronies created.
* republican Draft-Dodger-in-Chief
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Skraxx
(2,977 posts)Ilsa
(61,695 posts)might try to stop the financing of the investigation, someone commented that the team, having seen what they've seen now, would probably work for free.
HAB911
(8,904 posts)which might not be as much as some think
Mad-in-Mo
(229 posts)Reduce that golden throne to rubble.
MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)Mueller is taking care of history, trying to save us from corruption
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)It isn't if they commit crimes it is that they commit crimes.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Beartracks
(12,816 posts)I don't think they "get" anything about government protocols, priorities, and processes. They don't give two shits about public service, and they all hate government and therefore never really have understood why it's there, and what it does, in a democracy.
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Blue_Roses
(12,894 posts)Response to Beartracks (Reply #4)
WinkyDink This message was self-deleted by its author.
iluvtennis
(19,863 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Beartracks
(12,816 posts)Sad.
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Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)We truly have corrupt idiots in the White House.
Beartracks
(12,816 posts)==================
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)The government has always been their enemy, something to work around, or to cheat by using loopholes.
Beartracks
(12,816 posts)... but then dismantling it as unnecessary.
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Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Beartracks
(12,816 posts)... and not just lesser charges.
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Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Such as locking up criminals.
Blue_Roses
(12,894 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)KY_EnviroGuy
(14,492 posts)(snip)
Russia probe marked by contrasting styles of Trump and Mueller
The differences in approach and disposition of the two men at the heart of the Russia probe could hardly be more pronounced: a combative president who wants to counterattack in both public and private, and the methodical special counsel and former FBI director who has not uttered a single word in public about the investigation.
See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russia-probe-marked-by-contrasting-styles-of-trump-and-mueller/2017/10/31/cc72fdb6-be6e-11e7-8444-a0d4f04b89eb_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trumpmueller-945pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.28b29dbdc20f
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Professionalism all the way!
Grammy23
(5,810 posts)and cheated his whole life and managed to largely get away with those things. Pay a fine here and there, but never have to face serious punishment for his misdeeds/crimes. He bought his way out of the consequences of his behavior. He took that attitude to DC with him, assuming he could lie, cheat and disrespect the Constitution to the point it is meaningless to him. He acts as if he is above the law and expected to be able to do whatever he wanted, including treasonous actions in order to get what he wanted. Now he is discovering that not only is he facing serious charges for his deeds, but thanks to our laws and the people upholding them, he is could very well end up in prison along with the people he pulled into his schemes.
Mueller, on the other hand has dedicated his life to working to uphold the law. He has been dogged in finding out the details of this massive fraud pulled on the people of the U.S. With the tenacity of a bull dog, he has put together a team of experts and professionals who are cut from the same cloth he is. Together they are building all the cases needed to solve the crimes and rid the country of this dishonest bunch of criminals who illegally got installed in our highest elected offices.
Mueller has been given a task that, if it all comes together successfully, may very well be one of the most historic events in our history as a country. tRump and the gang of thugs and thieves thought they could waltz into Washington and rob the treasury and no one could or would stop them. But they underestimated the way our laws work and the people dedicated to upholding our Constitution. tRump let his narcissism overrule what common sense would tell you not to do. He has made one mistake after another with his flawed thinking on how our country works.
For months I have worried that the country and the way it is governed was over as we know it. It sickened me to think tRump might get away with the crime of the ages. Since hearing about Muellers work and seeing how things are panning out, even at this early stage of things,
I am feeling more optimistic than I have since last November. Maybe, at last, we will start to see things swing back to a more normal state and the guilty people end up behind bars. Let us dare to hope....
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,492 posts)I think you're right that many in this administration are blindly power hungry, bigoted and elitist. You might say that they have been waiting in the wings for quite a while with their ideological guns loaded. Haven't read many of their biographies but from their behavior, I'm not convinced that many of them have been exposed to everyday life in America at all and especially as a common working person - particularly with economic struggles like many of us have experienced.
I appreciate your positive stance, it is uplifting. I'm not quite there yet, for four primary reasons:
1. Very few from the elite 1% class (who made their money from us) have spoken up as resistive to tRump and his crew and their misdeeds. Many continue to pour millions into the coffers of ALEX and the many right-wing think tanks, media and political campaigns. That's a tremendous headwind against us.
2. Many influential people suffering from the hard right-wing mindset disease are in very powerful positions, either in corporate America, in control of powerful media outlets, or as our politicians. Many of those politicians were outright bought and paid for.
3. For those working class Americans infected with that same mental disease, I see little hope of them changing. I do feel that if enough of them suffer the hard realities of Republican policy being shoved on us now, maybe 10 or 15% might swing our way if the message is clear.
4. Republicans are trying their best to enter us into an international race to the bottom of economic existence by lowering taxes, reducing government (our common good) to the bare bones, and possibly starting trade wars. This process could lead us into a downward spiral of wage depression, price inflation and a slave labor/renter's economy. This is however, utopia for the wealthy.
Much of my negativity comes from not being able to see ways to reverse any of those four dilemmas. It could be done, but I don't believe Americans have the will.
I do , like you, feel a tad of optimism compared to the summer, and thanks for allowing me to vent!
Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Both of you wrote excellent summaries.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,492 posts)Sometimes I just need to write out some of my frustrations to maintain a little sanity. As you probably know, much of this has been building up since Nixon's days (within my recollection) and many of us have been hopelessly watching it all go down.
We're trying to stay positive, one day at a time!
Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)It feels the same to me now as it did back then.
And yes, American politics are heart breaking in general. The corruption and greed are so sad to watch, and the damage done to the American people. We continue our slide to third world country status. We are ruled by oligarchy who get more wealthy at our expense.
I guess we can take some solace that Mueller has gotten this far. But it is sad that things had to get so egregious for any action to take place. If Trump had been more like Junior Bush, he would have gotten away with everything.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)When you're talking and calling people names and insulting people, you aren't working or making anything better.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Mueller may have a bunch a "volunteers" and ready made evidence piling in as this case expands. I hope the trail of crumbs leads all the way to the orange blob...
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)was shield Trump from exposure to the Russian collusion in an excellent way. Of course, the fact that they shielded him is proof of knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)even if "collusion" is never proven.
I'd bet that Jared is next though.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Not that he has ever been in front of the cameras much. But particularly now. Not even a glancing photo.
CincyDem
(6,363 posts)A story that has been floating around for years about DJT is that he doesn't use email...for anything...nada...zip. The reason is that nothing can be digitally tracked back to him. He's not going to have his fantasy of HRC's email issues land on his desk.
OK - but remember. Guys like Mueller have been putting guys like Trump in jail long before email. Maybe it helps but it's not the difference between going down vs. walking away scott free.
Even if they shielded Trump from exposure better than anything else they've done - I'm a gonna guess it ain't gonna be enough to shield him from Mueller.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)It would be helpful if he had been forwarded emails from "the boys" and others, showing DJT had knowledge of certain things.
Since Trump is into electronic communication, it's odd that he doesn't use email.
His phone. I wonder if "the boys" and others ever texted him.
CincyDem
(6,363 posts)IIRC, there is also some question if he uses voice mail...like to the point of not even leaving a "call me" message on an answering machine. Supposedly it goes back to Roy Cohn training around leaving a trail.
It seems hard to believe and I'm open to hearing that it's an urban myth. I just remember when I first saw it all I could think was "classic play for a sleazy MF like him".
loveandlight
(207 posts)Trump lies, it's his nature. So if he ends up lying in his testimony, doesn't matter what else he does, that's it. And we know he can't help himself. When Mueller asks something where he has proof of what happened, and Trump starts to make up a story, he's caught. The end.
CincyDem
(6,363 posts)Mickey Donovan (Jon Voight) spinning a bullchit tail that is so off the wall the prosecutors just sit their with their mouths hanging open. And Voight (in spite of his asshat politics) plays it exactly like I see trump playing it. With an air of superiority and entitlement.
Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)nocalflea
(1,387 posts)That Manafort/Papadopoulos rollout was pure genius.
Threw everyone for a loop.
Way to keep the Trump team off balance.
Muellar and team are scary formidable.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Hornedfrog1985
(118 posts)Running around like a tiny handed moronic chimp.
Turbineguy
(37,342 posts)GOP politicians should check to see where their contributions are coming from. Mr. Mueller gave them a nice list of banks.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)Much of the work was probably done before Mueller.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)But I know what it is to take a big case over from someone else. It doesn't save you much time. You have to review every piece of information, then do your own thing with it, then decide where to go from there. Then create your own timelines, spreadsheets, memos. Then a LOT of the interviews and evidence did come from investigatory efforts since Mueller took over. Particularly the parts requiring the experts that Mueller hired, which the FBI didn't have.
I have no doubt that many in that office worked through the night many times, with no sleep. I did the same when working on financial cases associated with the recession investment negligence. And this is way more complex than that. (I was a paralegal, specializing in large cases with thousands of documents and responsible for the organization and categorization of every document, email, and piece of information embedded within those documents. Then numbering and organizing the thousands of exhibits that constituted the actual evidence to prove a case.)
Cicada
(4,533 posts)I know that they are working around the clock. A friend of mine clerked for Thurgood Marshall and rather than go home she just slept in his bathtub at the Court. They understand that to a degree the fate of the world is in their hands and they give every breath to this task.
We owe them our gratitude.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)People were clamoring that nothing was happening and demanding to know what the state of things was and saying because they had not heard anything or seen anything Mueller and his team must not be doing anything.
I was telling them that they wont see anything until his team wants it seen, and that will be when he has all his ducks perfectly in a row.
And he does here so far.
Manafort will die in prison. The evidence against him laid out in that indictment is clear and solid.
Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)He will likely be 69-70 by the time it goes to trial or gets settled in a plea.
He wont get sentenced to life, but looking at the charges even with a plea deal he will get sentenced to a longer term than he has left on this earth.
I cant see him getting off with less than a 20-25 year sentence.
Maybe he can beat the odds and live into his 90s in prison. I doubt it.
Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Not will all that they have laid out.
Irish_Dem
(47,131 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)He is privy to some juicy information, so he could make a deal. I don't know if he's the type who would do that, though.
If they don't confiscate the money (and maybe they can't), he could make a deal, then get out of prison in 5 years, then retire in a foreign country with his millions.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)Historic NY
(37,451 posts)forcing testimony.
[link:https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/mueller-manafort-gates-testimony-244339|]
kentuck
(111,103 posts)Handled very professionally. I can only imagine the amount of work that went into it.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)without a reference to Mueller. History books, biographies, etc.
H2O Man
(73,559 posts)I really enjoyed reading your OP, and the comments that follow. I come from an Irish-American family -- my father was a "first generation" with 13 siblings. Several brothers were in law enforcement and intelligence. I opted for a career in human services, though my formal education included a lot of law and law enforcement. I remember a professor saying that a good criminal can think of 15 to 20 ways to cover their tracks, but that a good investigator can find 50 ways to identify him. (It dawned on me then how my uncles always knew what I had done as a teenager!)