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pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:10 PM Oct 2017

Yet more bad news for Manafort and Gates.

A judge has ordered their attorney to provide testimony about them, under a crime fraud exception to the normal rules about attorney-client privilege.

https://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/grand-jury-docs-have-been-unsealed-and-its-looking-even-worse-for-manafort/

The trial hasn’t even started yet, and already, things are going badly for Paul Manafort and Rick Gates. An October 2 Memorandum Opinion was unsealed yesterday, in which D.C. District Court Chief Judge Beryl A. Howell decided to compel grand jury testimony from a lawyer representing Manafort and Gates under the crime-fraud exception to attorney-client privilege. The Special Counsel’s Office (referred to as “SCO” throughout the document) sought to compel the testimony of Manafort and Gates’ lawyer (referred to as “the Witness”). Now we know that the grand jury proceedings culminated in indictments, and Judge Howell’s ruling on the this motion to compel testimony is more than a little foreshadowing. The Court’s opinion on this issue allows us to peek into the generally secret grand jury proceedings, and that peek isn’t looking so good for the defendants.

SNIP

However, privileges are not absolute; among other exceptions is the “crime-fraud” exception to attorney-client privilege. Under this exception when a privileged relationship is used to further a crime, fraud, or other misconduct, the lawyer doesn’t get to use that relationship as a shield. The concept is easy, but getting a court to agree to use the exception is pretty challenging. In this case, Mueller’s office would have had to prove that the lawyer in question made the communication with the intent to further an unlawful or fraudulent act, and that Manafort and Gates actually carried out the crime or fraud. In other words, the judge at the grand jury proceeding found that there was plenty of evidence that Manafort and Gates had committed crime or fraud. Sure, for purposes of compelling a witness to testify at the grand jury phase, there’s no requirement that the crime or fraud is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and the evidentiary rules are different than they’ll be at trial. But bottom line, a federal judge looked at the evidence available to her and found that the SCO had made a good case for guilt against Manafort and Gates. Not a good start for the former Trump advisers.

At this point, we don’t know exactly upon which evidence the court relied; however, we do know that at least some of that evidence hasn’t yet been seen by the defendants. The court’s Memorandum explained that the court had “approved the use of ‘in camera, ex parte proceedings to determine the propriety of a grand jury subpoena or the existence of a crime-fraud exception to the attorney-client privilege.’”After those in camera (privately, with the judge), ex parte proceedings (outside the presence of Manafort, Gates, and their counsel), Judge Howell specifically found:

“…witness testimony and documentary evidence to show that these statements are false, contain half-truths, or are misleading by omission…”

SNIP

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Yet more bad news for Manafort and Gates. (Original Post) pnwmom Oct 2017 OP
Whoa Me. Oct 2017 #1
Wow Hornedfrog1985 Oct 2017 #2
So the Loud-Mouth Wellstone ruled Oct 2017 #3
If I'm understanding correctly, this means they asked their lawyers thing like unblock Oct 2017 #4
CBS radio was on this today: Unusual situation when prosecutor thinks client lied to attorney lindysalsagal Oct 2017 #5
Madoff kids MaryMagdaline Oct 2017 #6
It Can Be-It Also Can Be Knowing Participation by the Lawyers in a Criminal Enterprise Stallion Oct 2017 #9
Think about the signal this sends Hornedfrog1985 Oct 2017 #7
trump won't pay. he never does mercuryblues Nov 2017 #17
Mueller is kicking ass and taking names. Big time. Irish_Dem Oct 2017 #8
Lawyers are lawyering up. central scrutinizer Oct 2017 #10
So if "Under this exception when a privileged relationship is used to further a crime, fraud, or fierywoman Nov 2017 #11
Good question! pnwmom Nov 2017 #12
Thank you! BTW, I LOVE your posts fierywoman Nov 2017 #13
From an NBCnews.com article.. Princess Turandot Nov 2017 #14
Thanks! pnwmom Nov 2017 #15
Wow. No honor among republicans. Achilleaze Nov 2017 #18
Hang the Traitors! SCVDem Nov 2017 #16
 

Hornedfrog1985

(118 posts)
2. Wow
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:16 PM
Oct 2017

What!?

I womder if thats why gates didnt have a lawyer!? He couldnt work for him maybe anymore?

Also, remember how rachel showed money was unaccounted for of the 75 million the other day? I wonder if they left it our, to bait them into this situation or something... ?

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
3. So the Loud-Mouth
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:16 PM
Oct 2017

Ambulance Chaser is in deep shit with the Court. Thursday's Hearing is going to get real interesting. Looks like a Mafia hearing.

unblock

(52,253 posts)
4. If I'm understanding correctly, this means they asked their lawyers thing like
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:19 PM
Oct 2017

"How can I get away with this"
Or
"How can I launder money"

MaryMagdaline

(6,855 posts)
6. Madoff kids
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:24 PM
Oct 2017

Didn't go to prison because their lawyers told them if they didn't report their father they were aiding and abetting an ongoing crime. Is the ongoing crime here the continual concealment of money owed in taxes or continuing to conceal money belonging to ongoing criminal enterprises run by Russians?
Our country so badly needed Mueller. He is fearless.

 

Hornedfrog1985

(118 posts)
7. Think about the signal this sends
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:28 PM
Oct 2017

Even if trump pays for your lawyers, were coming for you. Mueller is like the boogie man.

mercuryblues

(14,532 posts)
17. trump won't pay. he never does
Wed Nov 1, 2017, 05:56 AM
Nov 2017

Not only that it would be highly unethical for him to pay lawyers for the people who are witnesses to your crime.

fierywoman

(7,686 posts)
11. So if "Under this exception when a privileged relationship is used to further a crime, fraud, or
Wed Nov 1, 2017, 12:17 AM
Nov 2017

other misconduct, the lawyer doesn’t get to use that relationship as a shield," : would what the Trump lawyer did re Ivanka and (I think) Don Jr's Soho deal, where the lawyer passed along a (something like $30,000) campaign contribution to the NY DA (who then dropped the case) fall under this circumstance?

Princess Turandot

(4,787 posts)
14. From an NBCnews.com article..
Wed Nov 1, 2017, 12:49 AM
Nov 2017
In emphasizing the strength of the case against the two men, Mueller's office noted that a federal judge had allowed Mueller to compel grand jury testimony from their former lawyer under what is known as the "crime-fraud exception" to attorney-client privilege.

The lawyer, who is not named in the document, initially made representations to the Justice Department about the pair's work for a Ukrainian political party that the government proved to the judge were false, the filing said. The judge's ruling compelled her to explain to the grand jury where she got the false information. The details are blacked out in the document.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/manafort-gates-pose-serious-risk-flight-says-mueller-n816246


Oops.
 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
16. Hang the Traitors!
Wed Nov 1, 2017, 02:00 AM
Nov 2017

Why are we even discussing this while we are at war?

At war removes the restraints on execution.

Remember, the repubs love war.

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