Ann Romney = Animal Abuser

[Fawke Em]

Dressage is abuse.

It's a similar abuse akin to the old-style training of Tennessee Walking Horses.

Fran links to a video shot by Epona TV, an independent equestrian network, at a practice session for a recent European competition in which the horse is “schooled” for two hours, possibly more, in this posture. You can see the horse’s tongue, quite blue, hanging out of his mouth.

You also see the rider lean down and stuff the tongue back into the horse’s mouth and then continue to practice. Neither the rider, Patrik Kittel, nor the schooling ring steward, who should have been aware of this egregious breach of FEI rules, seem to care one whit for the horse’s well-being.

I read the DNC pulled the dressage ads against Romney because Ann balked, saying that horseback riding helped her MS and the DNC should be ashamed.

Well, Ann, regular horseback riding - you know, the kind where the rider and horse are both enjoying a leisurely jaunt in a meadow or rolling hill trail - isn't the problem here.

The problem here is abuse, so FUCK YOU.

Edited to include this link: http://swinginsaddlebabes.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/dressage-and-horse-abuse/

[targetpractice]

1. Both Mitt and Ann have no empathy whatsoever...

They are both textbook cased of Narcissistic Personality Disorder... The entire family seems affected... The animal abuse, the fraud they tried to commit when selling a horse... The family pictures where the son and their families are all clones of the narcissistic patriarch and matriarch are tell-tale signs.

I'm not a shrink, but I'm recovering from a NPD toxic family.

[laundry_queen]

115. My condolences

I grew up in a toxic family affected by NPD as well. I think Mitt is more sociopathic (my ex is AsPD and there are many similarities), but again, I'm no expert. These things do tend to run in clusters in families, as people are drawn to what are familiar behavioral patterns. I think a lot of organized religions are full of people who recognize the church can offer a cover of compassion and charity. Didn't Ann just say something about them being so wonderful and compassionate for tithing? Church and charities are often useful for narcissists and sociopaths to appear like 'normal' people with empathy.

[riderinthestorm]

2. Like any animal training, dressage can be done badly. Like dog agility, dolphin shows etc

But on the whole, dressage is about a harmonious ride which won't happen with abuse. No horse and rider will last in the arena or on the trails by over-flexing.

Ann rMoney's horses are not abused. No horse at the Olympic level got there by over flexing or by being abused. Are there abusive trainers? Yes, like there are in virtually every sport.

Dressage itself however is not abuse and is in fact the basis for virtually all riding - including your leisurely jaunt in the meadow or rolling hill trail.

This is a dead end.

[kctim]

3. Aw, come on

Faux outrage over crap people don't know anything about is fun to read.

[riderinthestorm]

4. A simple search would show the OP that this video has come up at least 4 - 5 other times on DU

With an almost identical thread title.... I'm wondering if its a PETA type group that's coordinating some kind of staggered release to try to stir up faux outrage.

I understand that classical dressage is esoteric and weird. Its probably a lot like watching water boil for many folks - the nuances aren't even as flashy as fencing, or as interesting as poetry (two other ancient arts I'd hate to see disappear from our society).


But dressage in general is part and parcel of virtually every person's ride - from cowboys to Olympians - the art of creating that working partnership is fundamental to the experience.

I know, I know, I'm pretty sure I'm singing to the choir with you but sometimes I just can't stay quiet....

[cilla4progress]

5. Fellow dressage rider here - right on!

I'm with you RITS. I learned how to ride via dressage, and, done classically and correctly, and withOUT an emphasis on competition, it emphasizes harmony, healthfulness for the horse, and the relationship. Anyone can take something lovely and sympathetic and turn it into cruelty...unfortunately, human nature. I don't know how the Rmoneys treat their dressage horses; I can only hope it is humanely!

[Fawke Em]

7. I'm willing to be bet that Olympic caliber horses

aren't treated "harmoniously."

[riderinthestorm]

21. You're right, they're not treated harmoniously

They are treated like royalty and accorded every special treatment, privilege, attention and affection that any beloved pet gets anywhere.

[adigal]

73. Then why did Romney have to drug the shit out of her horse

To sell it?

Perhaps some dressage riders and some trainers are the old classic trainers, patient and kind. Many are pushing the horses too quickly, too hard, and throwing those who don't make it away, or breaking them down. It is not how they present it!

[riderinthestorm]

93. Honestly, it was probably her trainer who doped her horse to sell it.

That's not to say that Ann rMoney isn't ultimately responsible - its her horse of course, but presumably Jan Ebeling did the sale. That's pretty standard industry practice. I would guess that Jan Ebeling has complete care of her horses and directs the feeding and drugging.

That said, I'm guessing Jan Ebeling did this to get Ann a new horse. They are both complicit but in the scheme of things, as a pro in the biz, Jan Ebeling is the greater culprit here.

On to your point about "many" bad dressage trainers, I would firmly disagree on your points that they are pushing horses too fast, too hard, or throwing them away. You can't "make" a dressage horse get strong enough to carry a rider and do the movements correctly "too fast" or "too hard". Its impossible. Arnold Schwarzenegger became a champion body builder with years of careful work. Even if drugs are involved it still takes years of patient work to create a dressage horse - they simply have to have time to amass the muscle, strength and coordination. Some are naturally gifted at this and can go faster but ultimately most dressage horses have spent a decade or more to get proficient enough to do what is required in a high level dressage test.

As for throwing them away? Please! They are incredibly expensive to buy for one thing. An owner gets completely attached - these are their pets for decades and won't be thrown away lightly. Lastly, virtually all of them are insured. The insurance industry is manic about checking these claims since the Lindemann/Jaynes scandals a couple of decades ago (they were killing horses for the money and is suspected in the disappearance of Helen Brach). You can't simply "throw" an insured horse away as the vet and the insurance company has to sign off on the loss.

[Fawke Em]

8. I don't belong to PETA

I just find holding a horses head down next to its chest for hours disgusting.

BTW, I ride. And my favorite horse EVER was a rescued Tennessee Walking Horse. I think I know a thing or two about abuse.

For what it's worth, why the hell would I search for something on DU that hasn't been posted in several days (and to my knowledge, not at all)? Who does that? I've seen repeat posts, frequently, of stories that are right on the front page. Why would anyone look for something that wasn't on the first or second page? Some people, obviously, don't even do THAT much searching.

[magical thyme]

10. you are clearly totally ignorant of dressage

I am an animal rescuer, including horses, cat, birds and dogs, so I know a thing or two about abuse as well.

I have studied and ridden classical dressage since I was 11 years old, and been a professional as well as amateur horse person for nearly 50 years.

I have seen correct dressage training at the Spanish Riding School of Vienna. Their training sessions are open to the public every day.

I suggest you try informing yourself about a subject before making ignorant claims.

Abuse is one thing. Dressage is another thing. Rolkur is a modern, shortcut incorrect "technique" used by desperate, incompetent and over-mounted trainers. It is not correct Dressage, and to label non-practitioners of Rolkur (which would be the vast majority of dressage trainers and riders) abusers is just plain stupid and ignorant.

[Fawke Em]

13. I'm an animal rescuer, too.

So whoopee for you.

I suggest YOU inform YOURSELF about the difference between classical dressage and competition dressage.

And, again, it's spelled ROLLKUR.

[magical thyme]

26. I am well aware of the differences between classical and competition dressage

and believe it or not, there are people who managed to do both simultaneously.

Because you dredged up a ROLLKUR (excuse me for not studying the correct spelling of a technique I have nothing to do with) video does not make dressage abusive.

And switching your complaint from ROLLKUR to use of the curb bit is more than a little disingenuous, since the curb bit is used in classical dressage.

You did not say competition dressage and are now claiming that.

Spare us your crapola.

[Aerows]

64. ROLLKUR

Is unnatural working of a horse, used as a shortcut for quality animals to turn them over quickly.

Sound like the Romneys?

It's like implying that everyone forces things into being on short notice. Everyone with sense knows that great things take time. That's the difference between people that care, and people that are out to make a buck.

I shouldn't surprise you in the slightest that the Romney's use ROLLKUR trained horses, and shoot some of them full of drugs because they can't function without pain.

That is like saying that all dog lovers would put their on the damn roof. Only assholes like the Romney's would do that.

[magical thyme]

67. the thing is, there is no evidence that the Romneys or Ebeling use rollkur

It was a dutch invention developed by a dutch trainer/coach team. It was banned by the FEI a couple years ago. I suspect the video in the OP's link was actually some of the evidence used to get it banned. Disingenuous of the author to claim the steward didn't do anything, since the practice had not yet been banned. We don't know that the steward didn't report it to the FEI so that it could be banned.

That they were involved in drugging an unsound horse and fraudulently selling him to another of Ebeling's clients is known due to the subsequent lawsuit and veterinary testimony. That is legitimate. We don't need to make stuff up.

[Aerows]

69. True

But it is in line with the idea of abusing a horse. We have proof of drugging.

[Aerows]

47. "over-mounted trainers"

That says it all.

[adigal]

74. You serious? You think Romney types are going to be patient

And be patient like the school of Vienna???? Haha!! Dressage at the top levels is rife with abuse of the horses.

[magical thyme]

77. the Romney's are not in charge of the training

Ebeling is. And I have seen no evidence that Ebeling uses rollkur. Perhaps you could link us to a photo or video of Ebeling using rollkur.

It took Ann Romney 10 years of continuous lessons to learn how to sit properly on a dressage horse and ride a satisfactory dressage test on already trained horses.

She is not competent to train a horse to any level, let alone to the upper levels. This is one area where she has to do as she is told.

I am aware there are abusers, just as there are abusers in other disciplines and with other animals. Perhaps you could provide links supporting your claim that upper level dressage is "rife" with abuse.

I am aware that Ebeling and the Romneys were involved with drugging an unsound horse. That is a legitimate charge that led to a lawsuit that was settled out of court.

[magical thyme]

60. if the OP had even bothered to read the link, she might have noticed

the video was taken at least a year before the FEI banned the practice. It was probably videos like this one, and steward reports, that led to investigation and banning of the practice to begin with.

Clearly an agenda, and not likely an accident that this video was pulled out of thin air by somebody who couldn't be bothered to research DU to see how many times it's been used here...

[sad sally]

66. Knowing virtually nothing about horse dressage (maybe having horse before dressage is redundant?)

until Dave Letterman's pokes at RMoney's dancing horse, I have since watched hours of videos on them. The horses and riders are just beautiful! On the competition ones, seems at the end, the horse usually gets a hug and smooch from the rider for being so good. With the flashy ones, the horses seem to step with almost an air of pride.

Was sad to read about Mrs. RMoney's sold horse having so many pain meds in it's system - hopefully, that's not the norm?

[magical thyme]

68. the flashy horses do take pride. they are natural show-offs. nt

the less flashy horses also take pride, but their natural gaits are less "flashy." That's more a mechanical function, having to do with shoulder angle, and the length of the forearm or thigh versus the length of the cannon bone (from the knee to ankle). The flashy movers naturally lift their knees higher and their forearm almost vertical. They do the same playing in the pasture. The bouncier movers are able to spring more off their hind ends due to hip angles and the strength of their hock joints. The flashiest combine both.

[Fawke Em]

6. Hmmm... I've been riding horses for YEARS and have

never felt the need to train a horse with its head down next to its chest for two hours.

[riderinthestorm]

12. Neither have I, nor has virtually every other dressage rider on the face of the planet

Like any sport there are abusive and cruel participants and trainers.

But that is not the norm.

[Fawke Em]

16. It is in competition.

Not classical.

[riderinthestorm]

22. I'm the owner and operator of a professional, competitive dressage and combined training barn

Training, competing, buying, selling dressage and combined training horses. I am intimately, daily immersed in this world. My husband is a judge.

You are simply wrong. In fact dressage competitions are strictly monitored and the rules enforced at every recognized show with the stewards even being so intrusive as to stick their hands into the horse's mouths to check the bits and the horse athletes being compelled to pee into the cup to check for drugs.

[Aerows]

39. Exactly

Just because one person is an asshole, doesn't make everyone that participates an asshole, and I object to that broadbrush being applied here.

[magical thyme]

14. hmmm...I've been riding and training DRESSAGE horses for decades

nearly 5 decades, including horses ranging from unridden to former and prospective Olympic horses, and everything in between.

I've trained individual horses from unridden through FEI levels of dressage. I have never had the need to hold a horse's head to its chest for 2 seconds.

Nor did the top Olympic coach and trainer I got my foundation from, Lockie Richards.

Nor did the top international dressage trainer I was privileged to ride in a clinic with 3 decades ago, Fritz Stecken.

Nor any of the other dressage trainers I worked with over the years.

Now will you find such a technique mentioned in *any* of the classical treatises on dressage, from Pluvinel and de la Guiruinere on.

Rolkur is an aberration: a modern technique developed by a single proponent. It is NOT representative of dressage.

[Fawke Em]

17. If you've done all these things, why can't

you spell ROLLKUR?

I simply don't believe you. Sorry.

[magical thyme]

28. because I don't practice it or study it

and frankly I don't care whether you believe me or not.

[Aerows]

40. Thank you

I am not into dressage, but I love to ride, and good, kind trainers are the norm. Training horses is not as lucrative of a business as some seem to think, nor is stabling horses. Those that do it mostly do it for the love.

The Romney's don't have to do anything for the love, because they have shit tons of money and can be as abusive as they want to be and pay people off. That doesn't make them the norm - that makes them the cruel exception.

[magical thyme]

9. Dressage is NOT abuse -- PLEASE STOP REPEATING THIS LIE

I'm getting sick to death of people repeating this ignorant claim.

Like any other animal training, there are people who follow correct principles and teach with love and compassion.

And there are people who's egos and ignorance are in the drivers seat, who take shortcuts, and who abuse. That is true of *every* discipline involving horses. And dogs. And any other animals that we interact with.

Rolkur -- forcing horses to overbend their necks -- is NOT CORRECT DRESSAGE. Just because there are videos of it on you-tube does not make it correct or acceptable.

If you want to call Anne Romney an animal abuser, there are instances in which she was involved with true abuse. Such as how they treated Seamus. And how she treated one of her horses, Super Hit.

But you have zero evidence that Anne Romney or her trainer, Jan Ebeling, use Rolkur. SO QUIT SPREADING LIES.

[Fawke Em]

11. What lies?

I suppose you think this feels good to a horse?


Good, God, people.

Modern dressage is about competition. I'm not speaking of classical dressage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_dressage).

In theory, competitive dressage should follow the same principles as classical dressage. However, there has been criticism by some riders for the trend at all levels for "quick fixes" and incorrect training that makes the horse appear correct, but that is in fact neglecting the fundamentals. Classical riders criticize such training methods on the grounds that they are biomechanically incompatible with correct movement, are painful to the horse, and cause long-term physical damage.[1] These short-cuts usually catch up to the rider as they move up the levels and need to be corrected to perform certain movements. While these modern methods, such as the highly controversial rollkur technique, can produce winning animals, classical dressage riders argue that such training is incorrect and even abusive.

BTW, it's spelled Rollkur and I didn't accuse HER of using it. The quote was from the link I posted. Whether her trainer uses it or whether they use the curb chain is of no matter to me - either one is abuse.

[riderinthestorm]

20. Modern dressage is not simply competition. That bit you've put up is used by virtually every western

rider on the planet. That bit can be severe, and it can be milder than a hackamore. Its all in the fit and usage. FWIW, for those who are being seriously mis-informed here, every bit sits in the space between the teeth and lays OVER The top of the tongue. The bit that Mrs Fawkes posted actually has a curved port to help lessen pressure on the tongue. The chain can be as loose as a dog collar (or as tight) and is only activated if the rider pulls hard where it tightens under the chin (similar to if you yank on a dog's collar). The length of shank (the side parts) is fairly typical for any western type bit and is the lever that assists in reinforcing the chain.

And yes, Rafalca and every other Olympic horse is wearing a double bridle but in the hands of experts, its not a problem at all and is instrumental in helping the horse move as comfortably as possible. In fact that bridle HELPS the horses move correctly....


Edited for gender correction

[Fawke Em]

25. I'm a Mrs.

And I've never used a bit like that.

And if it isn't happening "often", why are there so many issues surrounding the practice during EVERY summer Olympics? The FEI is constantly investigating some rider or some trainer. You hear about it nearly ever four years.

It seems to me that it's the competition that sparks the cruelty.

[riderinthestorm]

31. What controversy are you talking about with the bits or bridles at "EVERY" summer Olympics??

Really, I'd love to read this recurring story in the media....

There's cheating at the highest levels of EVERY sport, you do know that don't you? But I don't see the stories you're telling me about where the FEI is "constantly investigating" the cruelty towards Olympic level dressage horses that you seem to be reading EVERY summer.

Those bridles are a mandatory part of the equipment for classical and competitive dressage. They HELP the horse move correctly and actually physically HELP the pair be harmonious. There's no way that the FEI is investigating the cruelty of the bridles (or bits) - they mandate them themselves.

[magical thyme]

24. good god yourself

if you're going to call use of the curb bit abusive, then you are calling classical dressage abusive as well. All the way through to the Spanish Riding School.

A bit, like anything else, is only as abusive as the person using it.

And you are the one who posted the rolLkur video and associating it with Anne Romney. So you were, by inference, accusing her of it AND YOU KNOW IT.

Congratulations on quoting Wikipedia. I could happily quote from my translated copies of de la Gueriniere and Pluvinel, as well as others from my classical library, on correct bitting and correct use of the bit.

Since you were too lazy to search, here are a few links for you to peruse regarding this subject being hashed to fucking death:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002928482
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002807236
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1002695011

[Fawke Em]

27. Ooohhh...someone's been reading.

I don't believe you. You don't sound credible.

I actually do believe that rider in the storm has ridden dressage properly, FWIW, but you sound phony.

[magical thyme]

33. I honestly do NOT CARE whether you believe me or not

I do believe this thread is a pile of flamebait and am reporting it as such.

[Aerows]

43. Have you EVER ridden a horse before?

I mean, actually tacked it out yourself before riding? I'm thinking that the answer is a resounding "no, I have no idea what I am talking about".

Come out to the sticks where people have had relationships with horses for decades.

[magical thyme]

110. I hear crickets

why am I not surprised.

[snooper2]

61. When I was little I made a little chair-ball-thing that anchored to the a cat harness

So my hamster could ride in it when the cat walked around the house...

I guess a human riding a horse would kind of being like that right

[LWolf]

111. That kind of bit certainly exerts a great deal of pressure.

Of course, it is used in other disciplines, as well. It's not my bit of choice. Here is mine:



It's a comfort snaffle, with 2 breaks to keep the point of the snaffle from jabbing at the roof of the mouth, and no shanks to cause more pressure. It's just a training bit, but my horses will collect, bend, and do just about anything I want except for a western slide stop, and I could probably teach them to do that as well with it, if I really needed them to.

I guarantee that they don't feel abused. They've got saddles customized to their conformation, bridles and bits that fit well and don't bother them, and a rider that pays attention to their responses.

Training a horse...for ANYTHING...

is, in part, about teaching them to give to pressure. ANY bit can be misused, and all bits and curb straps cause some sort of pressure.

There have always been abusers involved in equine pursuits. It would probably be more reasonable to be outraged about the abusers, rather than dressage.

Dressage, done correctly, is a discipline that creates more responsive horses and better riders for any purpose. It's not the problem.

We can find abuse in any kind of competition, equine, human, or other. Either we do away with competition, which I don't see happening, or we regulate it, and enforce those regulations, to protect the performers. If you want to start somewhere with this effort, you might want to start with horse racing, which involves abuse on a much larger scale.

[Redford]

15. Dressage is NOT abusive

If you do not know anything about horse training please don't comment about it. Educate yourself and you will find that Dressage horses are some of the most loved and doted on horses in the industry.

There are good and bad examples in every equestrian discipline. Some "regular horseback riding-you know-" can actually be quite cruel if the rider is uneducated on proper training and equipment.

[Fawke Em]

18. Ah... but I do know about horse training.

So, your point is moot.

[NCTraveler]

37. Credentials Please.

From your other posts in this thread your knowledge about horse training is dubious at best.

[Aerows]

51. I'd like to hear some credentials, too

Because all I am hearing are things that are gleaned on the internet, but don't come from actual experience working with a horse or fifteen in real life. Smelling shit once isn't nearly like shoveling a barn daily.

[NCTraveler]

55. "Smelling shit once isn't nearly like shoveling a barn daily."

That really made me laugh. Thank you. I have smelled the shit a couple of times. Not in my nature to make it a daily thing. But I am definitely smelling something here. There are so many different ways to attack this shit bag without attacking good, descent, animal loving people. This seems to broad-brush the whole sport.

[Aerows]

56. It is a broad brush

And the OP hasn't offered anything other than outlandish examples to explain themselves.

[matt819]

83. If you do "know about horse training," then you should know better

I will not use the "L" word because that's a violation of the DU rules, but your OP and this comment are utter garbage, and if you do know about horse training, then you should know better, and peddling this nonsense among readers who may not know much are dressage or other equine disciplines is irresponsible.

[soccer1]

19. Question for you......

I know next to nothing about dressage training. Are the horses trained to behave in a way that's unnatural for their bodies?

[riderinthestorm]

23. Every dressage movement is something a horse does in the wild, on their own

They are trained to perform these on command and in harmony with the weight of a rider.

[soccer1]

29. Thank you.

Do horses, in the wild, keep their heads bowed and their hooves prancing (probably not the right word) for an extended period of time? I've never witnessed that.

[riderinthestorm]

34. Sure they do. Watch any horse kept in a barn overnight get turned out in the am

The frolicking, frisking, "prancing", bucking, piaffing, passaging, caprioles... yup, all natural all the time - the horses go nuts for MUCH longer than the average 4 - 5 minute ride (even less time for a lower level test).

[soccer1]

41. Okay....

To be honest, I have a problem with any animal (other than obedience training) being trained to entertain humans. Sea World, horse racing, circuses, etc. I'm uncomfortable with humans training animals for our pleasure. They have no say in the matter...humans are controlling them. Doesn't sit well with me. But, if it is to be, I guess the most important issue is how the animals are trained and treated.

[magical thyme]

46. this country was built on the backs of horses

They provided the transportation across the country.
They did the plowing before John Deere.

With the few exceptions of abuse, horses that work for the pleasure of their owners have far, far nicer, easier and longer lives than horses did in the past or do now in the wild.

As riderinthestorm has posted in previous threads on this topic, in the wild the lifespan is about 8 years of hunger and danger from predators.

In captivity, it's closer to 25 years and they are well fed and cared for. My elderly gelding just died just shy of 27. He would have lived longer, but had a freak accident 18 months ago. He never fully recovered, and it led to other problems.

[soccer1]

48. Owning horses is one thing......

training them for humans' pleasure, is another. Farm horses pull plows so that food can be grown...that's work done for survival, not for entertaining humans. I have no problem with horses being owned so that people can enjoy riding. I'm only talking about training horses for competition, dressage, racing.....not sure about polo....unless the horses get hurt during competitions.

[magical thyme]

57. dressage is the foundation of every other discipline

and personally, I think it's important to keep that knowledge alive and available. Personally, I don't love competition because it does bring out the worst in some people. On the other hand, exhibition dressage is wonderful not only as entertainment, but to introduce people to horses.

Horses are very expensive to keep -- not just financially, but it requires enormous sacrifice on the part of the caretaker/owners. No vacations or extras for the vast majority of us. There has to be something in return besides petting them or we simply can't justify the expense and the risk of ownership.

I'm not sure why you exempt polo -- of course horses and riders can get hurt in polo. Dressage, done correctly, is one of the disciplines least prone to traumatic injury and in fact, promotes longevity and health. But horses and riders absolutely can get injured in any discipline, even just putzing around their own back yard.

I've never tried to count (don't think there's a way) but I'd be willing to bet that more horses get injured running around their own pastures then participating in any of the sports except maybe racing. (And racing wasn't always the way it is now -- slower tracks and much fewer races, strictly seasonal, meant fewer injuries, and more time to rest and heal between asymptomatic injuries.) They are the only being I know, human or otherwise, than can be wrapped in bubble wrap, put in a rubber room and still come out with lacerations!

The difference between a horse that gets injured in the wild and a horse that gets injured in its pasture is that one subsequently gets torn apart by predators and eaten, while the other has its injuries treated and usually goes on to live a nice life.

[soccer1]

84. I understand your point of view......

but I see a big difference between entering horse shows....jumping, and how the rider handles taking the horse through a course than training a horse in dressage movements. Preparing for standard horse shows does not require the horse to act in ways that are unnatural. Even though the dressage exhibition might only be for a few minutes, the training requires many, many hours. So, I'm not saying that these beautiful horses are not loved by their owners and are not well taken care of.....I just believe that horses or any animal should be enjoyed by humans while they are doing what comes naturally to them.

How does one justify the expense of owning a horse? Is it guaranteed that a horse will win a monetary prize in exhibition? Most don't, some do. We have many horse owners in my area. Their owners enjoy riding them on trails and some enter horse shows. There's not one person I know that has won enough money to offset the expense of taking care of their horses. Most of the people around here keep their horses at a stable....very expensive. Even those who have enough land put out lots of money for the care of their horses. They love and respect their horses...and that's enough justification for ownership for them.

These are my beliefs concerning the "ethical" ownership of horses......certainly many people would disagree with me.

[magical thyme]

90. dressage training is based on the horses natural behavior

I'm not talking about winning money to justify the expense. I'm talking about getting something in return besides looking out the window at them or patting them on the nose and hugging them.

Again, I linked to my blog which has a picture of my horse doing a perfect canter pirouette on his own in his pasture for the fun of it. He showed me almost all the movements on his own, for the hell of it. So did my very first horse. And I've seen video after video of foals demonstrating all the movements. All of the upper level movements are natural to horses. Watch foals and you can see them all.

I don't think you do understand what I am saying and I don't think you understand dressage at all. Correct dressage training does not require hours and hours of training at a time. It's hours of training added up over years, and not all the time either.

Endurance riding requires hours and hours of training at a time. Cowponies are out on the range for hours and hours. Combined training horses need longer training times for the cross-country endurance phase.

One of the great modern dressage trainers, Reine Klimke, trained his string of horses during his lunch break. 15 minute warm up by his wife and children, 15-20 minutes "training," then 15 minute cool down.

When I was barn manager for a budding USET rider, she rode half a dozen horses within a couple hours. How does that square with horses being trained for "hours and hours at at time?" It doesn't.

When I was a student at the American Dressage Institute, back in the 70s, I spent hours of my time watching future stars (and a classmate who gave it up). I never saw anybody spending hours and hours at a time. They spent an hour tops, with half of that warm up and cool down. In between, they hacked out on the trails.

Some horses require more practice, others less. But if people are spending hours and hours at a time, they are either doing it wrong or overfeeding their horses.

And, btw, I've seen plenty of what I would call abuse by trail riders who haul on their horses mouths, have bad seats and bounce heavily up and down on their backs, and kick them in the sides to get them to go forward. A major part of dressage is about is learning to not pull or jab your horse's mouth, not bounce up and down on their backs, not kick them to go forward. It's about getting out of your horse's way so they can do what they do naturally when they don't have 150 pounds or so of human sitting on their backs. Yes, we give them direction and ask them to go one way or another...just as their herd leader would give the direction in the wild and say run now or stop and graze now or lets go get water now. It's more of a private partnership...I hate to use the word dance, but it is like a dance. An intimate relationship between the horse and human, with communication by touch and weight and muscle tension and relaxation.

My old boys ideal session was 20-30 minutes warming up by walking and trotting down a trail, maybe a short gallop to get the beans out of him, then 15-20 minutes training, and then free walk for 15 minutes to cool down. Hell, the majority of his training was in an apple orchard, interspersed with trail riding (which also included "training" as in perfecting my use of the aids and our timing).

"Preparing for standard horse shows does not require the horse to act in ways that are unnatural."

I'm not sure what you mean by "standard horse shows." Are you saying horses naturally go around jumping obstacle courses? Because they don't. They may jump a single obstacle if it's in their way, but entire courses? Nope. Are you saying they naturally run barrels? Nope. Naturally trot around in circles over and over? Nope.

Btw, in Europe, dressage *is* the standard horse show. Stadium jumping is just dressage with obstacles in the middle. Combined training is dressage with endurance and jumping added. There is also driving dressage...even with teams of horses.

Dressage is simply a system of training based on the natural movements of horses and their natural behavior. It facilitates communication between horse and rider, balance under the rider, and overall harmony. This is from the most basic levels up to the most advanced, including movements and gaits you can see horses perform when they are at play.

Dressage competition is intended to test the level and quality of training. Ideally, the competition is with yourself. That some people abuse it is not due to the discipline, but the individual. Same as *all* disciplines and *all* competition and *all* animals and people.

[riderinthestorm]

95. Nobody spends "hours" drilling their horse for competitions or at competitions!

The horse would sour very, very quickly if its routine was hours of drills. Our work outs are 45 minutes each - a 15 minute warm up walk and trot on the buckle (long and low) with circles, serpentines etc if we are in an arena but mostly we do this part out on the trails. We then collect the reins and ask for more collection for the canter. We canter for 5 minutes asking for more collection as we proceed. There's then a 20 minute work out. Sometimes its strength training, sometimes its working on a specific skill, sometimes if its hot, we only do walk work - bending, suppling, responsiveness. 5 minutes to cool down. Our horses never school over fences more than 2x/week. We work them 6 days/week and a lot of that is hacking.

We do even less drilling at a show. You want your horse fresh, forward and energetic, not exhausted and tapped out. "Hours" of training and drilling would create a very, very uncooperative and exhausted mount so most warm ups are 20 minutes max for a test of 2 - 5 minutes. If its a cross country day, we trot out to the course as a warm up, jump exactly 4 fences and then gallop the course (which can take anywhere from 2 - 6 minutes depending on the level). Again, you can't perform if your horse has been run to pieces before you go. Edited to add that your perception of what is "natural" riding (trail riding?) typically has the horse being ridden for far, far longer and probably even much harder than your average competition horse. Trail riding especially is usually many, many hours of riding in a single day. And you think this is better?

My husband's intermediate horse at competitions, right now at the peak of her fitness, comes out of her stall and walks around on a loose rein. He trots and canters for exactly 5 minutes and goes in. She's super calm and if he worked her anymore than this she'd be very, very flat. He doesn't have time to ride any horse for that many hours in a week!


Again, I reiterate ALL of these movements are natural acts that every horse does in the wild, on their own, at liberty. ALL of them including racing, jumping, galloping around things etc.

[soccer1]

100. You are educating me on the ways of dressage training and I....

thank you. The type of training you describe does not seem unreasonable or harmful to the horse. What are the qualities that one looks for in a horse for dressage training? Are some horses better suited for this than others? I think of race horses that are so highly bred they end up breaking a leg during a race....maybe that's not the reason they break a leg, maybe they are entered in a race when they shouldn't be. I don't know.

I think putting a heavy western saddle on a horse isn't the best thing ( I suppose it depends upon the horse that is being saddled) ....English saddles are lighter and less cumbersome, are they not?

Btw, when I mentioned trail riding I wasn't referring to hours at a time. Just a meander along a trail then a nice fast pace in open areas. Horses seem to enjoy that.

[riderinthestorm]

103. Oh I could wax rhapsodic about the perfect horse... However, for an upper level dressage horse?

Usually they are built uphill so its "easier" for them to collect. They have very powerful hindquarters and a strong back - this is the engine for a dressage horse and it must have the mechanical balance to perform well (I like big butts and I cannot lie). Their legs are solid and their hooves are usually large and tough. I like a neck that's proportional to a horse's back but some dressage riders like them shorter than I. Its imperative that the horse also have a very long shoulder angle to maximize that long extended trot and a powerful chest so they have adequate lung capacity to become a top athlete. We typically spend some time on a horse's poll, jaw and mouth to ensure they don't have any issues that might cause them pain down the road since those are important "levers" in helping a horse maximize their efforts. The Europeans have perfected these horses and guard their breeding operations closely. Americans don't have the extensive breed records and history that the European organizations have and we've never been able to field a very strong team because we don't have the horses really.

Rafalca won't do very well at the Olympics I'm sorry to say. She's lovely but hot, temperamental and not first quality by Olympic standards however she's built pretty well and is a good breeding candidate imho.

However, all that said, EVERY horse can do basic dressage however they're built. Its the foundation of all riding, western or english and virtually all riders practice it in some way or another - even if its just to get their horse more responsive to turning, stopping and moving on command.

As for a western vs english saddle - the weight isn't important. Its the fit that's most important. Most horses can carry the weight without a problem - but if it fits badly it will be a miserable ride for the horse and the owner. A western saddle is built to be a working part of a cowboy's daily routine. The horn is used for roping cattle and the latigoes hold ropes, blankets, tools etc. It needs to be tough to endure the abuse it gets in its daily routine. Kali, another DUer is a western rancher who still uses horses for her farm work and could explain it better (she mostly hangs in the lounge these days if you want to find her). I've ridden in western saddles and I know how to cinch up a western girth but I'm not an expert in that area.

Finally, I hate to continue harping on this but you can't make ANY horse do something, especially if you abuse it. They will rear up and fall over on you, lie down, kick the shit out of you, or bite... if a horse is doing its work, then its perfectly fine doing its work because they certainly let you know if they hate it. I've seen horses that LOVED galloping and jumping. I've seen fox hunters who actually run towards the hounds as they scent a fox like they are looking for it too. Dressage horses that appear to float as they move in time with the music. They love their work.

You know horses are flight animals and trail rides can be spooky things. One of our horses is a wreck on the trails even as he's competed through the Advanced level (the highest) of combined training. He's nervous out there and hates ambling - its like he's on sensory overload. But get him near a start box and his ears go up and he begins dancing in place he's so excited to get running. He'll gallop the course and eat up the jumps with relish without looking left nor right at the spooky judges, the umbrellas, the dogs, the strollers etc. etc. but if he were just out for a trail ride? He's a bowl of nervous jello.

Not everything is as black and white as you want to paint it.

[soccer1]

105. I real appreciate your detailed responses.......

educational! I certainly am gaining a better understanding of the principles of dressage....with a horse that meets the requirements for dressage, it appears I have been off base with my criticism of the techniques. As you have pointed out, some horses are meant to amble along a trail, others, not! What's pleasurable for one can be unnerving for another. I get it. People are the same way. My son's a finely tuned "race horse" (athlete)...I'm an "ambler".

Fox hunting? Ugh. I don't blame the horses or the hounds.....but I do blame the humans who have the hounds kill the foxes.....should be banned, IMO.

[riderinthestorm]

106. Thanks for your patience and willingness to listen.

Obviously this is a passion for us. We've never been lucky enough to find or own an Olympic caliber horse or land a sponsor as wealthy as the rMoneys to make it happen for us. So we do the best we can although we do have a fair number of respectable international placings. We make our living with this and I really think its a shame when mis-information gets out about horse sports.

[riderinthestorm]

101. These are old skills that would be lost if someone didn't want to do it "for human pleasure"

Dressage is basically battle moves that provided a warrior with a weapon akin to the ancient tank. Its an ancient skill that deserves to remain viable since it doesn't harm the horse at all.

Furthermore, those people who pay the big bucks for racing, dressage, competition etc. are the very ones who have pioneered virtually all of the advances that have enhanced the lives of every single horse out there. Research into parasite control, feeding, injury and wound care, reproductive technology... all of these life saving techniques are funded by the very people you claim to despise. It takes big bucks to show at the highest levels and those folks put up the big bucks to ensure their horses get the best care. Those medical breakthroughs are disseminated to the entire equine population and raise the level of care for all.

Navicular disease used to be a death sentence. Now we have adequan, therapeutic shoeing, tildrin and physiological exercises ALL developed to keep that horse healthy and active for decades beyond the old days. Those advances came from the competition world my friend and I bless them every day for it because I can tell you this, your average Amish farmer doesn't give two shits about his work horses and wouldn't expend a single cent in researching how to make their lives easier, more humane, more pain-free or lengthier.

[soccer1]

107. I appreciate your informative response but

I never said I "despise" people who train and own dressage horses.

The medical breakthroughs in equine care you mention....are you saying that the wealthy owners donate to veterinary colleges and pharmaceutical companies that research and develop therapies and drugs for horses? Good for them.... their donations help all horses.
I'm not sure your description of Amish farmers and their lack of concern for the well being of their horses is accurate. If their horses benefit from the money that wealthy people donate to equine research, that's a good thing . That's a good thing for anyone who raises and cares for horses.

[riderinthestorm]

108. I should not generalize but most Amish view their horses like tires

with about as much compassion as we feel about replacing an old worn out tire.

My husband's guilty horse pleasure is the big draft horse teams. We spend a couple of days in the spring and fall at the Topeka draft horse auction near Shipshewana Indiana. Amish country in the strictest sense. We stay with the Amish (you can do this if you "know" the right people).

Lame horses, skinny malnourished horses, terrible farrier work, parasite ridden barely broke crazy horses, dangerous rogues literally harnessed in the equine equivalent of a ball and chain... the Amish are no friend to livestock. They look at them far, FAR differently than you and I. There's a reason Amish puppy mills are notorious globally - they just don't "see" animal welfare. They've never been taught that.

We've broke my second daughter's first pony (a 12.2h Shetland Welsh cross) to a harness and cart. She's so much fun to drive. My husband's driven many draft horse teams and dreams of owning a pair himself someday when he retires (snort). I think I can honestly say one of the highlights of his life was driving a pair for an elderly friend (shout out to the late Ed Hohman) at the annual Baraboo Wisconsin Circus Parade. Our old friend didn't think he could do justice to his fine team and asked my husband to drive them that year.

[Aerows]

44. Have you ever been around a pissed off mule?

That would answer your question, too.

[Cherchez la Femme]

63. It's called collection

horses also 'stretch out', called extended (trot, canter, etc.)
Watch foals in pasture -- they do it all.

But, thinking back to the Spanish Riding Academy, I do not believe Levade is natural, but it is not used AFAIK in modern dressage although the SRA still probably teach it, due to their history.

In any event, Dressage evokes natural maneuvers to almost invisible cues from the riders seat, hands, legs and feet. I suppose any training can get abusive, but I'll bet you'll have a worse time training dressage with abuse than with patience and rewards.

[magical thyme]

78. the levade is natural

I have seen horses do it on their own. My old gelding use to try when he was young (but he wasn't strong enough so couldn't hold it).

It's just a variation on a rear.

I think you meant the Spanish Riding School, not academy. And yes, they still do levade (and pesade) as it is a precursor to all of the airs above the ground.

[magical thyme]

30. 3rd photo down on the right shows a pirouette at liberty

here is a link to my blog. I rescued an arabian from starvation and neglect almost 23 year ago. He demonstrated all the fei movements in the pasture, except piaffe. He did not have the strength to piaffe. We did everything except piaffe under saddle as well.


http://www.magicalthyme.blogspot.com/

[avebury]

32. I would run a new ad. The horses were listed

on Romney's tax return as a business expense not a medical expense. It is a fact that they owned a dressage horse with a leg so seriously injured that it was not fit for dressage anymore. And what did they do? They doped the horse with so many drugs to hide the injury in order to sell it to an unsuspecting buyer. It all goes to character and that is the ad the Democrats need to run. I don't know if the unsuspecting buyer had to sign a nondisclosure agreement when he sued them but you might get his vet who examined the horse after the sale to speak in the ad.

[riderinthestorm]

35. Exactly!! This is what the focus should be - on the RMoney's fraud with Super Hit.

Far, far better than Rafalca imho

[Aerows]

38. That story made me sick

How anyone could do that to a living creature in an attempt to profit while pushing them beyond their capabilities for profit - pushing them that would cause further damage - disgusts me.

I don't let the buyer off the hook either. They probably pushed the horse even while drugging it up into the fifth dimension, too.

Disgusting people.

[Aerows]

36. She also shot up her training horse

With enough drugs to stop a Mack truck, then tried to sell the horse to an unsuspecting buyer and was sued because she didn't disclose the defect he had in his leg and hoof which caused her to shoot him up with said drugs.

These people are both assholes that think the world is there to serve them, rather than to live in the world and be a part of it.

You would have to be detached to think that other living beings deserve such cruelty at your whim. They fundamentally believe that they deserve to be callous because they are above all of "you people" as Ann Romney says.

[magical thyme]

58. and this is the legitimate criticism that has been leveled at them

time and again here in DU, but other than a couple mentions in the press, has been glossed over out there.

[amuse bouche]

42. How the hell does riding a horse help M.S?

I call horse shit. She could just as easily bounce around on a


http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-2-GIDDY-UP-RACING-RACE-HORSE-PONY-HOPPERS-BOUNCING-TOYS-/290738626130

2 for $33.00

[soccer1]

49. Apparently, riding a horse can help MS patients with their balance

Makes sense...so, ride a horse.....the rider need not train a horse in dressage to reap the benefits of riding.

[matt819]

86. Now the posts are just degenerating to a level of idiocy not often seen on DU

Riding is considered to be therapeutic for a wide range of physical and emotion ailments, which accounts for therapeutic riding facilities throughout the country (and beyond). On the emotional side, it provides an opportunity for a person to bond with an animal in ways that might not be possible with people, or certainly in ways that are different but tremendously valuable. On the physical side, riders with a host of physical issues find riding to be the one thing they can do that exercises their bodies in ways that perhaps more conventional exercising doesn't. Look for a therapeutic riding facility in your community - they're there, believe me - and visit. You'll see what I mean. Or, judging from the shocking posts on this thread, you probably won't.

On the general riding side of things, go to a local Pony Club event or school show in any of the disciplines. You'll see all ages of people, from 6 year olds to seniors, enjoying a remarkable relationship with their equine companions.

[kurtzapril4]

114. It helps a hell of a fucking lot,

nitwit.

[Atman]

45. You mean, wild horses don't dance like this in nature?

Dayum! I thought it was all about the athleticism of the millionaire fuck wad riding the animal's back, trying to hold on while the horse did pirouettes and saut de chats.

[soccer1]

50. Haven't seen any of the many horses in my area...

doing dressage moves for an extended period of time. And when they do frolic and prance around it's because that's what they do when they want to do it rather than on command from some human on their back telling them what to do and when to do it.

Sheesh....

[Atman]

53. Okay, do I even have to ask...

You DO realize I was being sarcastic, right?

Your response seemed pretty intense.

[soccer1]

54. Yes, I know you were being sarcastic....

I suppose my response was intense because I feel strongly about standing up for and protecting "animals' rights".

I was "intensely" agreeing with you.

[TwilightGardener]

52. I lost my appetite for horseback riding lessons, because it occurred to me that the horses

I'd been riding pretty much just wanted to graze, or go back to the barn, or be left alone. They weren't like dogs about to go for a walk (you know how dogs do loop-de-loops when you grab the leash). At best, the horses tolerated me--they weren't really into it. And thus, I became less enthusiastic and gave it up early on. That said, I don't think dressage is abuse if the horses aren't in pain or discomfort, or being forced to move against their will. But it IS silly.

[magical thyme]

59. I can understand how that could turn you off to riding

Understand that beginner lesson horses are chosen specifically for their lack of interest in anything other than eating or returning to the barn. It is strictly a safety issue.

On the one hand, that type tends to be very tolerant of "beginner abuse," that is the inadvertent abuse that happens at the hands of all beginners of anything. Kind of like the big, couch potato dogs that can have children crawl all over them, pull their ears and tails and not feel physical pain or take personal offense at it.

On the other hand, if all hell breaks loose at the barn (which can happen -- pastures have been used even as emergency landing fields for planes in trouble) while a beginner or group of beginners are on board, having a herd of beginner ponies take advantage by dropping their heads and grazing or meandering back to the barn is preferred over more ambitious, higher energy horses panicking and bolting every which way.

[matt819]

87. Silly?

What makes riding - in any discipline - any sillier than any other sport? And what gives you the right to judge an activity in this way that gives pleasure to human and animal. It's fair to say that you wouldn't do an activity. Or that you'd prefer to do something else. Or that you can't imagine doing something. For example, I do not get pleasure swimming laps. Does that make it silly?

Really, and notwithstanding my repeated posts in it, this thread is among the most idiotic I have read in my 11 years here.

[TwilightGardener]

104. Yeah, I think it's silly. Right up there with synchronized swimming and that rhythmic gymnastic

shit with the ribbons. And I highly doubt that dressage is pleasurable for a horse. He may not mind it, but it's just another set of tricks we make animals do for our amusement, not theirs.

[Cleita]

62. I think so too.

I had a horse friend who pastured over the fence from my garden a few years ago. He kept me company while I worked cuz he knew I would toss anything tasty I pulled out of it for him to snack on. I enjoyed watching him run and toss his mane when he was feeling good. His owner rode him the old fashioned way. She took very good, loving care of him too. I can't imagine JR would have been a happy horse doing that kind of training.

However, considering the Romneys' track record with their animals, I am not surprised. Living animals are not toys, but apparently the Romneys think so. It's too bad our laws aren't sufficient to stop this kind of abuse.

[magical thyme]

65. the practice of rollkur was banned a year after the linked video was taken

It was developed by a single trainer/coach team and was banned by the FEI after complaints and investigation. The linked video may well be part of the evidence that was used to ban the practice. It is NOT representative of dressage training; it is an aberration.

Furthermore, there is zero evidence that the Romneys or their trainer, Ebeling, use the banned practice.

That they abuse animals? Yes. Their own stories about Seamus prove that. And the lawsuit regarding their unsound horse was drugged to the hilt and fraudulently sold to another of Ebeling's clients for $125K proves that.

But a video of a European rider/trainer using a practice developed in the The Netherlands that was subsequently banned for violating the principles of dressage has no bearing on the Romneys.

[Cleita]

71. I can tell you love your horses:).

However, from a personal POV, I don't like to see any animals, dogs, horses, et al being trained to do tricks for our amusement. I guess I feel they are too much like us and although we all agree we have to learn certain things to survive in our society and that does go for our pets and domestic animals, we wouldn't like to be trotted out in an arena to amuse others and I don't think they care for it either.

[magical thyme]

76. my experience is that they do love what they are doing

horses don't make it to high levels without loving it. My old gelding missed not being ridden after he became too sound to ride. I have no doubt of it; his behavior -- picking up his bridle and shaking it at me, jealousy if I got on another horse -- told me that. He missed doing the advanced work. The last time I sat on him, just a couple months before his catastrophic accident, he wanted to passage and was just brimming with energy but not enough muscular strength to do what he wanted.

Dressage showing is really just a test of training. Do you think dogs should not be obedience trained? I have no more problem with dog's obedience trials then horse competitions.

I rode Algiers in only 2 shows, but it was too expensive to do more. In his first show under saddle, he just carefully tried to do everything I asked. He was very excited looking around at all the other horses and calling to them. It was at the farm where we boarded, and he always got excited when they had shows after that. I didn't have the time or the money, so I would ride him around the show so he could enjoy watching, but he was drawn like a magnet toward the arena.

It was his second show, years later, that I discovered how into it he was (he was by nature a show off). In dressage, you enter the arena and travel down the center line, then halt and salute the judge (as a sign of respect) and the judge rises from their chair and nods their head as a return salute. After the test, which is a sequence of figures and movements, you again travel the centerline, halt and salute.

Well, at our second show, Algiers confidently trotted down the center line. We halted and I saluted. The judge rose and nodded. And then ducked his nose down to his knees, and lifted his head with ears pricked. The judge looked surprised, as was I. Any thought that it was an accident ended with the test. Our second trip down the centerline, halt, salute, judge salutes, and Algiers again "saluted" by ducking his nose to his knees. The judge was biting back laughter, I was cringing. We rode 2 more tests in that show, and he started and finished each test with his own salute! The judges were laughing by then, but they didn't score us down for it. T

The thing is, with the intended approach -- that dressage competition is really competition with yourself and advice from expert professionals on where you are doing well and where and how you can improve -- it is a good thing. Professionals compete as advertising. Ammys generally compete for fun for themselves and their horses. It's the ones who's egos get in the way, or who are "win at all costs" and lose sight of the intended purpose, who make a mess of it.

On the other hand, there are horses in people's back yards who have never been through the "abuse" or "misuse" of a show, but also have never been fed a decent diet, had their teeth neglected, their hooves neglected, never de-wormed, etc.

[Cleita]

79. I don't consider obedience training of dogs in the same category.

It's to make them members of the family. Even my cats get a certain amount of training to socialize them and make them family members. However, making dogs jump through flaming hoops and other tricks for a stage act, I consider pretty unacceptable even though the animals might be trained and treated humanely. I agree about the neglected animals. There should be laws about providing for the needs, food and medical of domestic animals in order to be owners. It's not that animal rights groups aren't trying but it seems we have more laws covering responsible car ownership than we do for responsible pet and domestic animal ownership.

I don't think anyone objects to keeping horses for riding if they are well cared for. I know the horses do like it as well as the rider/owners.

[riderinthestorm]

97. Its probably more akin to dog obedience training than anything else. Its to make the horse a partner

You can't do that by beating it. Its love, rewards, time, patience... they certainly become members of the family and the obedience required of a horse to work as a partner is very similar to getting a dog to be a responsible member of one's family.

Many, if not most of the horses I know simply love their work. They love their riders. They RUN to the gate when we stand and call....

[Blue_In_AK]

72. I don't know anything about this sport

or how the animals are trained, but having taken a fair amount of verbal abuse here because I enjoy sled dog racing (someone once compared me to Michael Vick), I'm not going to offer an opinion.

[soccer1]

75. I think sled dog racing is different, but maybe....

I'm wrong. I don't know too much about long distance dog sled racing ( thinking of the Iditarod race). Are the dogs pushed to the point where they can suffer damage to their bodies? Race horses can damage their legs and then have to be euthanized. I don't think that's true of sled dogs? Again, I don't know but maybe sled dogs enjoy the race...maybe it's true to their nature.

[magical thyme]

80. sled dogs occasionally die in the Iditerod

But it is true to their nature, as running is true to horse's natures.

There is a higher rate of injury and unsoundness in American racing than in European or South American, due to our harder track surfaces (designed to increase speed) and heavier racing schedules. That is due to people running them into the ground, and the focus on breaking records instead of winning a race. It wasn't always that way here

Horses also occasionally die in combined training, either missing a jump (the x-country jumps are solid) and have even had heart attacks.

Again, animals can end up abused in any situation. It depends on the individual people involved, not the specific sport or discipline. They can be abused by neglect standing in somebody's back yard.

Horses don't usually die from dressage or dressage competition. Done correctly, they are strengthened and live longer. A correctly trained horse that avoids pasture accidents can be sound well into their 20s.

My elderly gelding had a pasture injury in his late teens. He came back from that to doing lower level dressage and remained sound for that and trail riding into his mid-twenties. He had a catastrophic fall in his barn, just outside his stall, mid-winter in 2011. He came back from that pasture sound, but then got terribly sick and I had to put him down just last February. He would have been 27 in May.

I posted a link to some pictures of him elsewhere in this thread. One shows him doing a canter pirouette while playing in his pasture. He is in upper level carriage, complete with arched neck, hind end fully engaged. This is on his own, and he was doing them in pasture from age 5 on, along with passage, some piaffe steps, flying changes, etc. The close up pictures show a very happy horse who loved his work and his life.

[Blue_In_AK]

85. Yes, occasionally dogs die on the Iditarod,

but there have been no deaths the past three years, which is fairly remarkable considering there are over 1,000 dogs running each year, and you might expect at least one natural death in a population that large. Formerly, there were issues with ulcers, but the vets have discovered preventive measures that seem to have nipped that problem.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outposts/2011/03/iditarod-no-sled-dog-deaths.html

[soccer1]

89. Have there been no deaths in the past three years because of....

more rigorous standards the sledders must abide by? What do you think?

[Blue_In_AK]

92. I think the rules have always been pretty clear,

but I think the veterinarians have been doing an outstanding job of looking for problems and finding solutions. These elite racing dogs are really well taken care of.

[soccer1]

96. Thank you for your response....

A while back, I saw a special show on TV (not sure which channel) about sled dogs and the Iditarod race. It covered all aspects of the race but focused on the care of the dogs....how the sledders and vets protect their dogs' paws was discussed. I found it fascinating and informative. But, if you are in solved in any type of dog sledding events you would know, first hand, all that's involved in the care and training of those wonderful dogs.

[Blue_In_AK]

82. No, the sled dogs aren't pushed.

The fact is you can't make a dog run if he doesn't want to. I've known of several Iditarod racers who had to drop out just 20 miles from Nome because the dogs didn't feel like going anymore. And then I've seen other teams who want to blow right through the finish line and keep on going. With the Iditarod, as with most long-distance races, there are several required layovers and vet checks at every checkpoint. If a dog seems under the weather at all, it's pulled from the race. And I've been told they seem very mournful when they watch their teammates leave without them.

[riderinthestorm]

98. You can't force a horse to do it either - they'll simply lie down. They go because they want to

You can watch videos of riders falling off and the horses continuing on with the steeplechase, race, event, herding cows, barrel race whatever. Nobody's making them do it and the horses just keep going. I've seen horses actually rearing in anticipation of going out to jump a cross country course as they wait in the start box. They just love the gallop.

For the bigger horse competitions (like the Iditarod) the vets are all there, especially in eventing where the horses are actually pulled up mid-race and given a thorough check up to ensure their ability to go on. Horses there too will cry out to some of the horses as they are cleared to go on, they are so eager to get back on course.

[matt819]

81. Oh, please

This is utter garbage.

Dressage is not abuse. There is a school of dressage training that is considered abusive, but these practices are widely regarded as such by responsible trainers and so not engaged widely. I seriously doubt that Romney engages in or endorses these practices. Really.

[soccer1]

88. Just to be clear....

I don't think you're specifically addressing your post to my comments, but I want to make it clear that I don't believe dressage training is abusive if done correctly. I just think it's unnatural and not the most humane way to interact with horses. Putting a dog in a crate on top of a car for a long trip....well, that's another story.

[matt819]

91. What is it with the antagonism to horses

You are right. I wasn't responding to your post specifically but rather to the OP and others of like mind.

You observe that you don't believe dressage training is abusive if done correctly. Let's take that a step further. Regardless of what you believe, dressage training, or any other training with horses, is not abusive if done correctly.

You also observe that it's unnatural and not the most humane way to interact with horses. Granted, horses did not evolve to be ridden, but ridden they are. It's a hobby, and as hobbies go, it's a pretty good one. And for those for whom it's a vocation or profession, you're not going to get rich, but those who do it find it rewarding. What's wrong with that? And, contrary to popular belief, it's not a sport in which the only participants are rich. They're teachers and accountants and secretaries and stay-at-home moms and dads. Why is it unnatural? Horses are magnificent animals with a rich social structure among themselves and who value as much as we do their interaction with us people. If you've spent any time around horses, you'd find this out.

Yes, there's abuse. As there's abuse in just about any sport or other activities. Talk to ballet dancers. Boxers? There are people who are just nasty and shouldn't be allow around animals (or people). Take a look at the recent New York Times articles on horse racing. Yeah. It happens. And it sucks. But among genuine horse people, it's a way of life. And it's these genuine horsemen and women who do their best to guard against equine abuse in their communities, and beyond. Equine rescue groups abound, usually operating on a shoestring, to care for animals that have been abused or neglected. There are groups that specifically cater to retired racehorses. These are not abusers, and their relationship with horses is far from unnatural.

Sure, there are other ways to spend time and money, ways that may address hunger or poverty or educational problems in your community. But to be so dismissive of people and horses, as has been shown here, is just downright nasty.

[soccer1]

94. Of course most people who interact with horses are not abusers......

I'm aware of people who take care of retired race horses and greyhounds (our neighbor adopted a retired greyhound). I'm aware of people who shelter and raise money for all types of abused and neglected animals. I'm one of those people.

I'm also aware that many horse owners, many in my area, are not wealthy.


I did not say that relationships between people and horses are unnatural. I said that it seems to me that dressage training is forcing a horse to do what does not come naturally to the horse. Experts in dressage training would say that I'm wrong. I can accept that, unless I find out differently.

[LWolf]

112. Any kind of riding or pulling does not come naturally to a horse.

What comes naturally to a horse is grazing, pooping, a herd social structure, and flight from threat.

Anything else is human introduced and controlled. Whether for a working purpose, or an athletic purpose, it's not natural. Like anything that people do, it can be done well, or it can be done badly.

While my horses live healthy, happy lives, answer to a call or a whistle, like my attention, and cooperate with me when I want to do something with them, none of that is "natural." It's what they've been conditioned to, so that I can enjoy them. They've been taught to trust me, and to interact with me in ways that keep us all safe.

I would venture to say that many human activities are also unnatural. I don't know how natural it is, for example, to perform gymnastics, sky dive, or compete in any number of sports that require rigorous training, or that result in excessive wear and tear or injury.

Leaving out the abuse that occurs in competition, dressage itself not only creates a more responsive riding horse for any discipline, it's great for strengthening muscles and increasing flexibility for the many things a horse might be asked to do by humans.

[Honeycombe8]

99. Disgusting and horrific. nt

[magical thyme]

109. and not dressage. It was found out, elevated to authorities and banned as a practice.

that uses force, and therefore violates dressage principles.

This 2009 video is very likely part of the evidence used to get it banned by early 2010.

I find it supremely ironic that this false attack on dressage training posted by the OP was made based on the very evidence that got the practice banned.

A single dutch trainer/coach team -- 1%ers I might add -- developed their "technique" in response to a very talented, but tough minded dutch warmblood horse. The technique, which violates the fundamental purpose of dressage, was videotaped and reported back to the appropriate governing body, the FEI.

That and other tapes, photos and reports were reviewed by the FEI and the practice was banned.

I assure you that if a trainer depends on rollkur at home, they will depend on it in competition, be found out and be eliminated.

It is over. The system worked. Move on to disciplines that continue to foster abuse after years and years of complaints and evidence.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

102. It's not a living thing, it's property...

...just like the citizens of the United States would be if Ann and Mitt moved into 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

[magical thyme]

113. Dressage training is not abuse. Dressage movements are natural.

Below are the "3 Ps" and the levade, all at liberty. No force involved, and 3 of these pics are horses playing in their pastures.

The "3 Ps" are among the most advanced movements, and the levade and other airs above the ground are not performed in competition dressage. But dressage encompasses all the training, from first introducing the horse to tack to ground work in preparation for riding to simple left, right, walk, trot, canter and backing up under a rider. From there training can branch off into jumping, trail riding, combined training, western reining, etc. Or some horses that are particularly good at it can specialize and continuing up through various figures and movements until they arrive at piaffe, passage and pirouette..

passage at liberty:


piaffe at liberty:


canter pirouette at liberty:


levade at liberty: