Finished Ken Burns' Vietnam series

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Last edited Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:08 PM - Edit history (1)

To all DU members who served in Vietnam thank you.

Since documentary reviews aren't my forte I will just share what I believe to be the highlights (Episodes 5-10) and some thoughts it provoked.

-Jane Fonda's trip to Vietnam. She had every right to go but she crossed a line when she said the prisoners of war should be treated and tried as war criminals. That was not a good look but it was emblematic of the madness at the time.

- I don't know why Kissinger is so celebrated in foreign policy circles. His mendacity and perfidy rivals that of his president, Nixon. I have no problem with realpolitik. I do have a problem with a foreign policy unmoored from morality.

- Out of all the presidents who prosecuted the Vietnam War Nixon was the most devious. LBJ wrestled with the fact that we couldn't win. Nixon knew we couldn't win and prolonged the war until it was not to his political advantage to do so.

- We threw Vietnam under the bus. I once met one of the boat people who spent eight and one half years in a re-education camp. His story was harrowing and brought me to tears. When I was a kid I knew a military family who sponsored a Vietnamese family. The man was a colonel in the South Vietnamese Air Force. His first job in America was a dishwasher.

- If Nixon and Kissinger are geniuses why did Russia and China play them so easily ?

- The North Vietnamese brought back General Giap to lead the final operation to take he South. After the Americans left it wasn't much of a feat.

- Ho Che Minh was a nationalist and a communist . In demonizing him we focused on the latter and ignored the former. Perhaps he could have been co-opted or worked with him if you will. We had a cordial relationship with Marshal Tito and the Yugoslavians led freer lives than their European Communist counterparts.

- Interesting how partition worked in South Korea and Taiwan but not in South Vietnam.

- So now we are friends with the Vietnamese and they love American tourists. We and they see the other as a bulwark against China. I hope Trump doesn't f--k it up.

PEACE

DSB

[rickford66]

1. Lessons learned. Why are we afraid of Cuba?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Ask Trump.

[cilla4progress]

3. Nice commentary - thanks

We finished it last night.

I am also struck by how cynically political the decisions were about continuing the war and each president's reelection campaign...not to be naive... Barely a shred of conscience.

Vets + anti-war protesters (those who appreciated that the soldiers were also victims of vainglorious patriotism and manipulation by old, white, male poliiticians) are to be thanked for their actions and sacrifices. I am especially thinking of John Kerry and his compatriots in VVAW.

It is a pattern that repeats itself, and one we are doomed to repeat, I'm afraid.

[NRaleighLiberal]

7. yes, so much deja vu between then and now.

[Cosmocat]

15. LBJ did a LOT of good domestically

but he was wrong on this.

Nixon was not horrible with his domestic policy, but he was a rat fucking POS.

Funny thing is, I literally was in Kindergarten when he ran for re-election and I knew that. Even at 6 years of age, I was dumfounded by how many of my classmates liked him.

[CTyankee]

17. IIRC, LBJ was very popular initially because of the sympthathy of the country after

LBJ's assassination. The Vietnam War ultimately undid him since it was such a huge mistake in the first place. But back then the country believed in the domino theory.

[Cosmocat]

20. At the time I can get the mindset

So, I can't knock them too much for the line of thinking, but what pains me is we are in the rat trap with this war on terror bullshit that is GLARINGLY a huge mistake.

But, it was pretty obvious that Vietnam was not going to end well from early days of it, just from a terrain aspect along with the absurdly horrible SK government situation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I can empathize with LBJ's desire to halt communism.

His blaming domestic opposition to the war on Communists. Not a good look. Trumpian !

[dalton99a]

4. Well, you can't build a Ho Chi Minh Trail to invade South Korea or Taiwan

The North Vietnamese went around the DMZ through Laos. It's astounding to see the logistics involved.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. South Korea and Taiwan both had autocratic governments that evolved into liberal democracies.

That never happened in South Vietnam, maybe because of the continued conflict.

Sad that Trump and his band of Deplorables are trying to destroy liberal democracy here. I hate those fuckers for it.

[NRaleighLiberal]

6. We finished it a few weeks ago - superb synopsis of some critical points.

Didn't you find the personal interviews sprinkled in - both Americans and Vietnamese, both sides - fascinating, moving, and so vital?

We are nearly done reading Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried - simply no way to describe how superb and moving it is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. It was sad that one man spent seventeen years in a re-education camp.

[NRaleighLiberal]

9. indeed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. And the man who built a successful life for him and his family here who wants to return to...

And the man who built a successful life for him and his family here who wants to return to Vietnam to die.

It was interesting that they showed Vietnamese working for the Bush-Cheney campaign. Vietnamese like other Asians have become more Democratic, likely because they see the GOP for the white identity party it is.

[Loge23]

10. Ho Che Minh was abandoned by the Americans

Ho wanted and expected the Americans to help him liberate their country from colonialism.
Our failure to support them was the first of our many failures in Vietnam. Instead, we chose to work with the corrupt regime in the South, perhaps because we better identify with corruption than we do with freedom.
Anyone who gets through this series has to be traumatized again by this horrible war. I was literally in tears by the end of several of the series episodes.

Incredibly bad, even evil, decisions by our so-called leaders are responsible for the millions of lives wasted and the incurable wound on the soul of our country.

[Cosmocat]

16. Political leaders obviously

but, Westmoreland got a LOT of good men killed for no good reason.

[Zorro]

12. The situation was a little more complicated than "throwing Vietnam under the bus"

The corruption of the Vietnamese government and military was systemic and pervasive.

Bribes were paid to government officials to gain military commands, military officers extorted money from the farmers they were to protect, military recruits paid off their commanding officers to not show up, commands padded their rolls and kept the paychecks of their imaginary troops, government officials took US relief aid intended for free distribution and sold it to the citizens, etc.

Not everyone was in on the take, but a substantial number -- from senior Vietnamese government leadership on down -- were thoroughly corrupt. It was something the US was aware of, but did not take substantive action to eliminate.

It created a culture of greed and incompetency in both government and the Vietnamese military, and South Vietnam was destined to ultimately fail in that climate of corruption.

[uponit7771]

13. +1, "The corruption of the Vietnamese government and military was systemic and pervasive. " If the

... South Vietnamese gov was even half way on the up and up I think it would've been over.

The North would've have some contrasting economy etc to look at instead of the broken environment that was in the south.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. The government was corrupt and ineffective.

The people of South Vietnam deserved better. They want what all people except Deplorables want; that is a government that treats all its citizens equally and with respect and is attentive to their needs.

[Beringia]

14. Thanks for your service to all Vietnam Veterans

[scarytomcat]

21. my view is we have not learned anything

we are still waging war though out the world and still failing to understand that their is no winning
we are wasting billions of dollars and gaining nothing
our military industrial complex is making billions and innocent people around the world are suffering and dying
we are all responsible for the actions of our immoral government
stop war now... shut it all down.. invest in people

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. We elected Chump.

We are regressing at warped speed.

[scarytomcat]

23. yes we are regressing

but I don't think he really won
more and more evidence is coming out the election was stolen
we need to fix the election system... paper ballots hand counted and rechecked
who cares if it might take days to know who won... the people deserve a real election