Bernie Sanders: One thing needs to change in order to make America great

[Hassin Bin Sober]

He's right you know

Bernie Sanders: One thing needs to change in order to make America ‘great’

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/10/bernie-sanders-we-need-to-make-college-free-to-make-america-great.html

In an opinion piece for Vice Impact, U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) discusses what he believes America actually needs to become "great": High-quality higher education delivered to citizens for free.

What would help is "not spending tens of billions more on weapons systems or providing trillions in tax breaks for the rich," he writes. "It is having a well-educated population that can compete in the global economy, and making it possible that every American, regardless of income, has the opportunity to get the education they need to thrive."

However, he writes, "we are moving further and further away from that goal," thanks to the high cost of college.

More than 44 million Americans have taken out student loans to pay for school, with their debt totaling $1.4 trillion. The average debt for 20-year-olds is $22,135. For 30-year-olds, it's $34,033.

And while wages aren't rising much, the cost of tuition is. That could explain why the number of loan defaults has reached a new high.

[Tavarious Jackson]

1. K-12..

Right now we can't even get K-12 properly funded.

[bettyellen]

2. Yep, without that- free college will cause more of a divide between the classes.

He seems completely unaware how bad schools in the inner cities are.

[sheshe2]

3. Yup, if K-12 are not fixed then college becomes a moot point for many.

Point is you do not move to fix the roof when the foundation is crumbling. You start from the bottom up and not the top down.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

5. Yeah, well our country isn't your house.

Both need to be fixed.

How bizarre people think we can't do both.

[sheshe2]

6. Well, I never said it was my house...

And he is not talking about K-12. Never mentioned that.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

7. Of course he has "mentioned that"

Go use your google.

[sheshe2]

8. Not in what you posted.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

12. If someone posts a thread about heart disease are you going to demand a comment about flebitis?

[Ninsianna]

24. If that someone was insisting that his thread about heart disesase

mentioned PHLEBITIS, yeah, we're going to demand that the guy who insisted that "flebitis" was mentioned point out where.

If said person insisted that "flebitis" was the one change we could make to address heart disease, we'd need proof of that as well. Getting all snotty about "googling" things that don't address underlying problems isn't really doing anything to address the issue under discussion.

[Weekend Warrior]

52. Phlebitis? nt.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

57. De nada.

Flebitis
Compártelo!

La flebitis es una inflamación de una vena. La tromboflebitis es cuando aparece un coágulo de sangre que causa la inflamación. La flebitis puede ser superficial (en la piel), o profunda (en los tejidos bajo la piel). La flebitis superficial es la flebitis que está en una vena superficial de la piel.

[Weekend Warrior]

59. Another good reason to highlight k-12.

Throwing out Phlebitis actually made the other posters point.

Then again, any argument that starts with MAGA automatically sucks.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

76. hahahaha!! Right on the money... like Bernie!! (as usual)

[bettyellen]

11. House building is an analogy- first you work in the foundation-

Last you work on what naturally comes last- the roof.
If the many have weak foundations - they won't benefit from those free roofs. That should give us pause and set it priorities.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

13. K-12 is already mandated and paid for.

Sure we have a funding issue. And we have a poverty issue - which is part of the funding issue.

We need to change the way we fund K-12 public education. Part of fixing the poverty issue is making sure kids from poor families have a shot at a decent education and a decent living. College educated parents have college educated children.

This isn't a one step at a time deal. It has to be attacked on all fronts.

[bettyellen]

16. And they are graduating kids who are illiterate. Teachers are forced to pass kids or else their

Schools get closed. Step one is creating a system theat remotely works for empoverished kids so they have some chance. Step two is college. Free college is serving those with less needs ahead of the desperately needy- it's immoral.

[ehrnst]

34. Actually, no, it's not paid for. Not adequately

Certainly one could make college tuition-free, and lower the standards accordingly, as is being done with public k-12. Classes could be held in a building that doesn't meet fire code, doesn't have the technology neccessary to teach what is essential for living in the modern world, etc.

The Chicken/egg argument really doesn't work for people who have kids in k-12 now, does it? Expecting anything to change in terms of higher education, without first addressing the public education that is the foundation of higher education, is putting the cart before the horse. If the kids who are in k-12 now don't have the skills, they won't be sending the next generation to college, free or not. If you think that the only thing preventing parents from going to college now is tuition, you are wrong. There is way, way, way more to raising a family in poverty than you think. If you are a parent working two jobs, you don't have time to go to college, even if there is money. If public k-12 schools provided more services, like after school programs, that would help. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to being in poverty, that won't be addressed with college tuition for the parents.

Not to mention, the vast majority of learning occurs in elementary school, and it's where we put the least amount of educational dollars.

That needs to change right now, before these kids go to college.

If kids can't read, or pass college courses, free college is useless.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html

Is that clearer?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. I acknowledged a funding problem. So the rest of your post is TL;DR

[ehrnst]

71. I don't know what those initials stand for. (nt)

[George II]

43. Where is the money going to come from?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

49. The Treasury.

[George II]

51. And where/how will the treasury get the money?

[Not Ruth]

55. Taxes

[George II]

58. Exactly. Thank you.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

78. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!! Even HILLARY herself proposed making college free...

for families below a certain annual income level... something like $8O,000. I agree with Hillary on this point.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

62. The same way we just forked over an extra $80 billion for the Defense Department.

Civics 101

[ehrnst]

72. What does that have to do with education spending?

Spending on public education comes from local and state taxes, whereas defense is a federal expenditure.

Civics 101.

[LanternWaste]

73. You certainly argue against many arguments no one ever makes.

"How bizarre people think we can't do both...."

You certainly argue against many arguments no one ever makes. I get it though... arguing against the points actually being made would much more accurately illustrate your biases.

[mountain grammy]

82. Yeah, how bizarre indeed.

Liberals used believe in big ideas, taxing the rich and redirecting military cash. Guess now, not so much. Sad.

[saidsimplesimon]

53. We agree.

[Tavarious Jackson]

4. I'm in a blue state..

but we still have enough republicans who shut down school funding. I'm tired of rhetoric. I want to see some actual policy detail on how Bernie thinks this will work nationwide. Without that, it's a pipe dream and nothing more. Hillary had a plan she rolled out during the primary... It's the plan Cuomo is trying right now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-final-2016-presidential-debate/clinton-touts-debt-free-college-plan-heres-how-shed-pay-for-it/?utm_term=.39fb65cf305b

[ehrnst]

37. Yes, she really doesn't get credit for her plan. (nt)

[Demsrule86]

21. The poor would pay for a rich kid to go to college...it happened in Georgia with the

Hope Scholarship...not a good thing to run on either. We will run on issues no one supports and lose 18 if we are not careful.

[jmowreader]

9. That would work for about a year

Assume Bernie were able to expand free education from 12 years to 16 - bachelor's degrees on the public dime. All well and good...but the business world's response would be to start requiring master's degrees for jobs that now require bachelor's. And if we expanded free education to the master's level, those jobs would suddenly require doctorates.

The business community LOVES its workforce burdened with undischargeable debt because someone with massive bills over his or her head that he or she can't get rid of except by paying them off isn't going to be in much of a mood to shop for new jobs.

I'm also concerned about how we make sure the jobs we are training people for are the jobs we need filled. What might work is to enroll people in college the way the Army enrolls people in jobs: each person takes a bunch of tests, and they're offered a list of careers to choose from once the results come back. (When I went in, they gave me a list of six military intelligence MOS and nothing else...I'm certain if I REALLY wanted I could have had something else, but as it turned out if I hadn't picked the exact things I did I probably would not have been standing on Potsdamer Platz the night they tore the Wall out. So it all works.)

[Willie Pep]

15. I do worry about credential inflation.

Some employers now require a bachelor's degree for jobs that could probably be done by people with a solid high school education. A lot of college-educated people are working in jobs that could probably go to people with less education but these folks are being pushed out by credential inflation. The bachelor's degree requirement is now becoming a barrier for many people who were not able or willing to go to college for whatever reason.

Matt Bruenig makes a good progressive case against free college: https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/matt-bruenig-left-case-against-free-college

[kcr]

17. Yes. I'm one of those rare progressives who isn't a Bernie fan. This is one of the reasons why.

He's weak on labor. I think he uses free college as a flag to wave around and get people to vote for him. It's a superficial solution that preys on our culture of meritocracy. We need to be moving away from that and toward rebuilding what made our middle class strong. It's not that education isn't important, but it's not the reason our middle class is shrinking. His focus on this as his main issue was why I never felt he was the big progressive hero so many make him out to be.

[ehrnst]

35. +1000 (nt)

[Hassin Bin Sober]

47. .

[ehrnst]

69. ..

[brer cat]

39. Good post, kcr.

This sums it up quite well:

It's a superficial solution that preys on our culture of meritocracy.

[Willie Pep]

42. Yes I agree with you.

I also think it has a lot to do with the "Bernie Bro" problem Sanders had during the election. Granted that it seemed to mostly be an online phenomenon but I do think that Bernie attracted a lot of people who would otherwise be Republicans due to their economic standing but supported him during the primary due to his position on free college.

[mountain grammy]

86. It's exactly why the middle class is shrinking.

You are completely wrong to think rebuilding our education system is superficial. And, Bernie Sanders is one of the few Democrats who has consistantly supported labor unions.. I remember the Wisconsin demonstrations and the attack on public unions.. Bernie Sanders was there, but not President Obama, who, while campaigning, promised he would walk with unions. Those were public school teachers out there..You're not much of a progressive in my book.

[kcr]

87. When recessions happen, is it because millions of degrees are magically disappearing into thin air?

No. Our middle class isn't shrinking because people suddenly can't get degrees where they could in the past. And Bernie is wrong to think that Americans aren't as educated as they used to be. I didn't say Bernie doesn't support unions. But if he claims the number one problem is not enough people have degrees? Then yes. He is weak on labor because he doesn't understand the problem.

[Ninsianna]

19. Is part of that because a "solid high school education" is no longer as solid

as it once was?

I don't think it's an inflation thing, I think this is a desperate attempt to find people who can actually read, write and do basic math, since a high school degree doesn't guarantee that anymore.

[kcr]

20. Wrong. It is a myth that our public schools fail at delivering quality education.

I could pepper you with links but you could also google and find out for yourself. Our schools have been demonized by an agenda that wishes to privatize them for so long that people both sides of the political spectrum believe the propaganda. It began during the Reagan administration.

[Ninsianna]

25. This is wrong.

I was literally quoting a teacher who was expressing what she was seeing in her 9th grade students in her school district, where children are literally not learning how to read.

In a state where I mentioned that they're literally arguing that's not their responsibility.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2016/11/21/state-michigan-says-literacy-not-fundamental-right/94218364/


It's a myth that our public schools are doing such a great job.

Who is demonizing our schools? The students and the teachers who are reporting that they're not getting the job done (not just in inner city Detroit, but in wealthier suburbs?)

What does reporting the facts have to do with privatization?

Teachers and students reporting what they're experiencing is "propaganda"? This is happening now.

Also, I went to a couple of private schools in MI, my cousin is graduating from the same one that I did, a nationally ranked one known for its academic rigor.
That kid has wasted his expensive tuition. He had the same teachers I did, and there is a vast difference between what he's doing and what we did. Yes, he's in non-AP/non-IB classes, but the kid was whining about writing a paper longer than 3 pages.

This is not unique to him, or to MI, there is something going on with general levels of education in this country that needs to be addressed and that's not going to happen if we keep ignoring reality, and trying to make things into something they're not.

I don't care if it's private or public, but education in this country is suffering greatly. Reading, writing and math are suffering and there is zero critical thought being taught or learned.

It got to the point where I felt the need to thank my teachers on FB for giving me such a great education, until recently I thought everyone had such dedicated teachers who held their students to high and rigorous standards. I had no idea how special the experience my classmates and I actually had. (Cousin missed out on some great teachers who retired, but we shared enough from 5th grade onwards that he had no excuse.)

[kcr]

31. Your opinion based on one teacher's experience doesn't equal fact.

And I'm not arguing that states aren't trying to cut funding for schools, so your link doesn't refute anything I'm saying.

[Ninsianna]

63. Sure, but the link was more teachers experiences, and

this is not exactly an isolated instance.

It's not just about cutting funding for schools, there is something going on, and nothing you're saying refutes the fact that there is a dip in standards and that the US is failing to compete globally. That's been going on for some time.

It's not just about funding, and focusing on that alone is detrimental to our children and our ability to comhttps://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=9701467#pete globally. Look, there is a reason that so many were able to be fooled so easily by truly ridiculous lies this past election cycle.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science/

http://hechingerreport.org/u-s-now-ranks-near-bottom-among-35-industrialized-nations-math/

https://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/PISA-2012-results-US.pdf

It goes beyond the anecdotal experience of teachers in a single school district, and it's a mistake to dismiss it in false beliefs in our greatness in education, when the data doesn't back up that stance.

[bettyellen]

44. I'm friends with 6-7 public school teachers and they are ashamed at how horrible conditions are.

Only one- that works in a fairly affluent suburb thinks their school is functioning well. My friend who teaches HS in Manhattan has classes of 40+ students- barely literate in 10-11 grades.

The teachers are told they must pass along the vast majority of their kids or they lose their jobs. That's standard in NYC and Newark right now. They have no text books, they buy their own supplies.

A judge in NYC said they have no obligation to prepare them for higher ed becasue some people have to "flip burgers".

[kcr]

48. Again. I'm talking about a myth. It's likely the reason for all the things you're talking about.

I'm not making the claim that all public schools are perfect and that there are no failing students, or that they aren't funded badly, or any of that. I'm talking about the claim that the US public school system is a failure. It's not true. In fact, all of those things you're talking about are likely due to that myth being so successful. People who think the public school system in our country is a failure are far more likely to buy into the school reformer propaganda. It's not true and it was never true. Public schools don't need reform. They need support.

[bettyellen]

50. You seem to think because the GOP uses failure as a reason to defund we can't admit failure?

Nope- it's happening to too many kids. It's because funding is based on property taxes. Nothing about the issue is "a myth" and only those lucky enough to not have their communities suffer becasue of it would even suggest it. It's not a political game or a myth. It's THE most serious cause of inequality in the USA.

[kcr]

54. You are completely and utterly missing my point.

I'm not denying any of the things are true. Do you think teachers just suddenly decided to sit on their asses and not teach kids to read? I hope not. Do you believe that teachers should be paid based on performance? I seriously hope not. I also hope that you support things like teachers unions and more funding for schools. Because see, there are people who don't. And they're the ones who convinced people to support their positions. The way they did it? By telling people that public schools were failures and needed reform. It's still how they do it. The way we improve our public schools is NOT by punishing teachers and busting unions and converting public schools to charters. It's by funding them and supporting them. When you spread the lie that the public school system is a failure, you do their job for them. In other words, the damage the GOP causes does not mean they're right. Well supported public schools with union teachers work. Our public school system works. Don't let the GOP get away with their lies.

[mountain grammy]

83. Yes, and Democrats have been on that train too.

loving charter schools, demonizing public school teachers.. Arne Duncan was no friend of American public schools and school teachers..

[kcr]

88. Oh yes. They absolutely have.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. Both sides have bought into it, for sure.

[Demsrule86]

22. No it is not. I doesn't matter if you went to the best high school in America. It will not get you

a decent job today. It is about requiring expensive degrees that are in many cases not needed. When I switched professions ...teaching science to accounting ...one of my first jobs was an admin position which paid $13.00 per hour. This was in 2003 in Georgia. I have a a college degree in Chemistry and Biology (masters). I had sold pharmaceuticals and taught...wanted a change and love math so I went back to school. Georgia's schoosl were so awful, it was child abuse to teach there. I beat out all the other non-degree candidates, and my boss fell he got good 'value'. My salary was raised and eventually, I made over 60...but the other applicants that I beat for this low level cheap job (would have left if I didn't get a substantial raise) could have had the best high school education ever...didn't matter because I had a degree. My son is laid off from GM...he applied for a job and was turned down...line job...the successful applicant had college. He is now returning to school...displaced worker money will help, but being an auto engineers son, he saved is money too. There is less opportunity in Georgia today for middle class and poor kids who can not afford the best (only one I know of is in Marietta) public high School or private schools ...not to mention tutors since Hope...free college for all : no income restrictions. It is not free anymore either. It only covers part of the costs associated with college.

[Ninsianna]

28. Yeah, I'm not saying it's going to, though I went to a pretty good high school

and temped the summer before college. My second official posting ended up keeping me on til I was ready to head off, they were doing their best to hire me.

(I think I benefited from their frustration with the person in the job before me, since they way the reacted to my answering the phone and talking like a human shocked them.)

This was a receptionist job in a local hospital in MI.

I know quite a few people who work at GM and I can honestly say that their college degree did not make these people terribly more educated. Not even in the fields they held their degrees. There is a reason I will not buy a GM car, way too many stories from and about the people that work there and are in charge of designing, testing and assembling cars.

[Demsrule86]

40. I can honestly say that I find your comment insulting...and it is based on a limited

knowledge and experience of a company that you sneer at because you knew a few people. I lived next door to a Toyota rep who's sole job was to find a way to deny people their warranties. This was in Georgia. Oh, he was good at it too. My husband is an engineer and his degree has stood him in good stead. As for the company...if we lose autos, we will have even less jobs and no doubt enter a permanent depression...so I guess the point will be moot as we won't have enough money to buy any sort of car. Buy American while you still can or prepare for enslavement...and that is the truth. The cheap foreign crap that is bought today carries a much heftier price tag than people realize. Can you name one TV or phone made here anymore? England allowed their manufacturing to go in order to enrich the few at the expense of the many and will not recover ever...we are headed in the same direction.

[Ninsianna]

65. I literally just shared my personal experience, and you're choosing to insult me by claiming

I'm "sneering" at someone?

Yeah, I know quite a few people, and my opinion is what it is.

Whataboutism now? I'm sure that addresses the actual instances that these people I've had personal experiences with, cause no one at GM has that job, right?

Cause that totally addresses the multiple reports of various substance abuse etc.

Also, you do know that Toyota manufactures in the US as well, right? Or don't you? GM manufactures all over the world, so pretending we live in whatever age where GM was only American and Toyota only foreign is silly. Sneering at Toyota is mystifying in general.

Enslavement? Huh? Yeah, I'm in Michigan, and this lecture is not at all insulting, sneering and just plain old not based in reality. "Cheap foreign crap"? Like Toyotas manufactured in Mississippi? Kentucky, Texas? How about Indiana, Alabama or West Virginia?


Shall we just buy 'murican? Even if those GM cars or parts are made in any of the many, many countries GM operates in?

My family used to buy GM cars, when they were not the best around, but my parents worked in Detroit, and were terrified of violent people who shared your sentiments and took to threatening and taking violent action against anyone who didn't drive a 'murican car.

We don't make TVs or phones here anymore for a reason, manufacturing simply isn't coming back, and it's time to stop weeping over something lost decades ago and face forward. Those other countries are investing in education, in engineering degrees, they teach their kids to read, do math and science, then they build on that in higher education.

That's why we've been importing engineers, doctors, scientists etc. from other countries. We're in a situation where our own kids aren't able too compete with their kids. Making sneering, insulting, borderline Trumpian comments about those furriners isn't going to cut it, that's why Republicans suck, they don't get that.

[Demsrule86]

67. What you described is hearsay really. And if we don't support our manufacturing, we will lose more

jobs...jobs that supported a middle class. It pains me to hear people criticizing our own industries...people need jobs. This was most of the reason we (Dems ) lost the rustbelt which allowed the GOP to steal the 2016 election. Perhaps I overreacted but there are literally millions of jobs associated with GM and other American manufacturers...not just the auto jobs themselves but all the jobs they support...from parts to people who work in restaurants. We began to to climb out of our deep 2008 recession after Pres. Obama save the auto industry and did cash for clunkers. When a country has lost their loyalty to their own goods and manufacturing, can it survive? History says no...even recent history with the UK.

[Ninsianna]

75. And what you described is complete ignorance of where companies like Toyota

which you specifically cited as "foreign crap" make their cars, which is in America.

It pains me to hear such ignorance among Democrats, I expect this stuff from Republicans, I expect more from Democrats.

No, the "most of the reason" we "lost" the rustbelt is that young people were lied to about the value of their vote and what the parties are. It's why we "lost" counties that are full of college kids and not so much manufacturing centers. The GOP suppressed votes, the Russians and others were spreading propaganda to lots of young, uneducated ears, because those kids had no ability to use critical thought, and had no idea how government actually works. They were easy pickings.

You did overreact, and I've seen people say the things you were saying, it's why my family, out of fear, drove cars we did not like, which we thought were not well made, for years. There was a time when American cars had a reputation that was the exact opposite, sadly that was a time many decades ago when we bothered to educate our kids and taught them to think. We've stopped doing that and we've been seeing the resultant consequences in the past few years. We literally went from Republicans with "gentleman's Cs" to Republicans whose vocabulary is smaller than that of the average golden retriever.

We're literally existing in a time when MI state government is arguing that they're not required to teach children in Detroit to read. Just mull that over for a second and then think about how out of place jingoism is.

We need to do better for our kids, by addressing the evident shortfalls that teachers like the one I referenced are bringing to our attention.

Hey, we depend on other countries to "lose their loyalty to their own goods" to buy OUR goods. Know how we get them to do that again? We up our game and we realize that 2017 isn't the 60's and 70's and that our world is a smaller place, where we can't rely on government funded "loyalty" programs (this didn't work out so well in the USSR, did it?)

I firmly believe that in order to be more competitive economically on a global scale we need to do what other countries are doing and prepare out kids to compete globally, to educate them to be competitive anywhere in the world, to have our industries be the best in the world due to the talent we cultivate at home, not just by draining the brains of the rest of the world. This had been great for us in the past 40 years, but those brains are finding better opportunities in their home countries and in other places, while what we have to offer them is hatred, bigotry, and nazi red necks shooting their grandpas, blowing up their places of worship and gunning them down when they're having after work drinks.

Sure, such countries can survive and thrive, the UK actually screwed over quite a few countries by undermining that very thing, they recover when they do what's necessary to educate their kids. It's what we're failing to do.

Watch the canaries and listen to the experiences of people who are screaming about what's going on, dismissing it as "hearsay" is just ... pointless.

[Demsrule86]

84. They assemble their cars in America...only a couple places...all the R&D is done in Japan and the

money goes back to Japan. The jobs they create are way less than American companies. Also, they close their markets to our cars while having free access to our markets. They charge higher prices at home than here and they often sell at a loss to undercut the US autos. and sell below market ...they can make it up at home. Hubs worked in autos for 30 years, we know all about it. And Toyota doesn't even test their cars anymore which is why they had a sudden acceleration problem that killed people and sent people to prison for years before they admitted it. AT least their was a large judgment against them. And my truthful tale about the Toyota guy who's sole job was to cheat people out of their warranty was as valid as your 'talking to unnamed people'. And just watch how fast Toyota and other companies run back to Japan after victory is achieved and American autos are gone...just like electronics. I suggest you read up on that.

[Demsrule86]

23. I disagree...that is their excuse. They have bunch of those.

And free college for all with no income requirements would only worsen a bad situation...it is a talking point that won't happen. Hillary's idea about community colleges was much better and had a shot of really happening.

[Ninsianna]

29. It is their excuse and unfortunately in some cases it is the

sad truth. I posted a link above about the lawsuits happening in MI where they're claiming literacy isn't a basic right or something public education is not required to provide.

I agree with you on the free college issue, and with HRC's community college idea, it's very much a plan that addresses the basic things that these people chanting "free college" are going on about.

I was fortunate enough to attend a very good private school and tested well enough to be admitted into a prestigious college. I actually got to interact with people from various backgrounds when I took a course at a local community college (EMT-B). My partner had an associate's degree (which I'd never heard of before I met him), and worked in the Merchant Marines. My instructor, who was a brilliant man, didn't have advanced degrees, but was both good at his job and at teaching others how to do it.

These were people who were genuinely interested, did the work and dedicated themselves to their studies. Not quite so much with all of my fellow college students.

Even those guys had some issues when it came to things like reading, understanding and following simple instructions in lab classes for example.

We have to do a better job with teaching the basics, to prepare students for reality in an ever shrinking global environment.

We're not doing the job, and we haven't been for my lifetime.

I arrived in the U.S. after kindergarten and 1st grade in another country. (I found an old report card, I was not quite leading the class per my English teacher, and I only grudgingly learned my times tables.) Imagine my surprise when I started school here (at a private school), younger than my peers and far ahead of them in math and reading. I didn't have to do much until 5th grade when I was switched to a more rigorous school and they made me do some work and the material was finally new.

We don't have the luxury to pretend we're so great when every other country is out doing us, and our own students are having real problems with reading, math and even finding our own country on a map. Literally everyone else is teaching these skills.

[Demsrule86]

38. You elect Repbublicans. They will destroy schools...doesn't mean we need all these degrees...it

means we need better schools...and don't elect Republicans. I saw Georgia Hope...no income restrictions...became a fun thing for the rich...how many hope mobiles are there I wonder...poor kids in failing schools and the middle class can't compete with the wealthy who have access to the best schools and tutors.

[Ninsianna]

64. Electing Republicans leads to some dumb decisions, and they ALWAYS

mess up schools.

We absolutely need to do a better job of teaching our kids. Sadly, the majority are not electing Republicans but they've gamed the system in such a way and the too many uneducated people have been told their votes don't matter, and they believe this.

We have actually seen isolated pockets where small communities have gotten together to pool their resources to provide tutoring etc. to their kids. I don't recall where I read it, but it was in reference to a certain portion of the Asian community, where parents would get tutors for their kids.

They shouldn't have to rely on that though, not when we spend so much on our educational system as it is. We need to figure out the mistakes we're making and rectify them. Starting, I think with teacher pay.

[Demsrule86]

68. Ohio used to have the best schools but Kasich the so called moderate has really hurt them...

and Wisconsin was excellent as recently as 2007...now just terrible.

[Ninsianna]

77. Ohio was in dire straits before Kasich.

And I'm not just saying that as a Michigander (:-P)

Republicans are behind the dumbing down of our education system as a whole. Walker et. have been hard at work in WI as well, Snyder literally poisoned his own people and then okayed a suit stating that literacy is not the responsibility of the state.

It's been terrible for some time. In the not so distant past states like Texas (where it was in the Republican platform to cease teaching critical thinking to kids because it confused them) controlled our textbooks due to the way the publishing industry worked.

We need to pay attention to what the teachers are telling us and make sure our kids are meeting basic standards.

[Demsrule86]

81. Strickland had worked wonder with the schools in Ohio...when I came here...the school my kids

attended was great, but Kasich cut the hell out of the budget to give the rich tax cuts and raised my property taxes actually...but the schools are not doing great and some have had to move -older folks - who can't afford the increased property taxes...he gave more money to charter schools last year than public schools. I live in Ohio and Stickland had a great plan...we also have poor economic opportunity which Governor asshat has not addressed and we have abortion laws worse than Alabama...the only thing he did that was good was expand medicaid.

"COLUMBUS, Ohio - Ohio Governor Ted Strickland announced in his 2010 State of the State address that the Education Commission of the States (ECS) will honor Ohio as the winner of the 2010 Frank Newman Award for State Innovation.

According to ECS, Ohio's enactment of House Bill 1 in 2009 demonstrates the state's commitment to informed, bold and courageous reform. H.B. 1 overhauls nearly every major component of the education system, from early learning through postsecondary.

"In Ohio, we recognize that a superior education for each and every young person is the strongest path to long-term economic success," Strickland said. "We believe that providing every Ohio child with high-quality educational opportunities will better prepare them for their careers and life. So we committed to an education system that draws upon quality teachers and modern learning opportunities to help our students become innovative, creative thinkers."

Governor Strickland and the state legislature made an unprecedented commitment to Ohio's schools in 2009, ensuring they will be funded through a constitutional system and provide Ohio's students with modern, quality learning opportunities."

[madville]

30. Value is usually based on scarcity

Whether the commodity is naturally scarce or it is controlled in some fashion. When there is surplus, value diminishes because a commodity becomes difficult to sell if everybody has one.

[LongTomH]

14. K&R For Bernie!

[Ninsianna]

18. Apparently Bernie has no freaking clue about the state of the K-12 education system.

At a rally the other day for a gubernatorial candidate, a teacher pointed this out to the candidate, that while we have some of the best schools in the country, we have an inordinate number of children who arrive in 9th grade with extremely poor reading skills.

This is in a nicer area of Michigan, that this woman was discussing, where the schools are good, haven't been Devossed, and aren't included in the suit against the state where the state is literally arguing that they are not obligated to teach basic literacy.

The one thing that needs to change in America is elected officials ignoring the complex realities facing this country to make pithy slogans that show how completely ignorant they are about what's going on in America.

First of all, there is no "one thing", and "free college" does absolutely nothing to address the failures of our educational system in the basics, reading, writing, arithmetic and critical thinking.

Bernie is wrong and doesn't even understand enough of the topic to understand WHY he's so wrong.

[yuiyoshida]

26. I was hoping he would have said

impeach Trump/Pence

[delisen]

27. Need to address education for students

who can't get admitted to college - not just those who have no problem being admitted.

the 'free college" emphasis may be useful in some states where pre-college eduction my not be a problem.

what might be a useful focus for a small population, homogeneous state like Vermont, does not necessarily address the educational needs of large-population, very diverse states.

[ehrnst]

36. Bingo. (NT)

[Hassin Bin Sober]

46. .

[emulatorloo]

61. all this waving, seems like you need a good hug.

I'm all for free college at public universities/colleges. I'm also for job/technical training for people who aren't college bound. As well as stronger foundation for K12. There's multiple needs out there.

[madville]

32. Already a surplus of higher education credentials in our economy

Having an education is only one piece of the puzzle. Would increasing the number of bachelor or masters degrees increase the number of jobs in our economy? Ultimately education is a commodity, when there is a surplus the value diminishes. Scarcity typically increases value.

[Hortensis]

33. Yes, we need affordable/free education. But we now know that it will only "take"

for some. Both right and far left, and yes liberal left to a lesser degree, will always be eager to avoid any truths that don't suit their inborn dispositions and social heritages.

And we need an end to opportunistic lies about simple, easy fixes. "Follow me! I have the answer." NO.

Bernie, just one thing this country really needs is honorable and competent politicians who both recognize and respect truth.

[ehrnst]

74. +1000 (nt)

[treestar]

45. Stop calling it "free"

it would be based on taxes. Not saying that it is bad, but it is not "free" and that word enables the right wing to tear it down too easily.

[Joe941]

60. This. Call it free doesn't treat people as intelligent.

Repugs call us out on this - and they aren't wrong when they do it.

[ehrnst]

70. +1000 (nt)

[guillaumeb]

56. Recommended. And the GOP tax plan will increase the deficit,

increase war spending, and reserve education for the deserving rich.

[Omaha Steve]

66. K&R!

[leftofcool]

79. Except it wouldn't be free

[Adrahil]

80. I'd argue with him a bit....

IMO, the MAIN thing that would help is rebuilding organized labor, and protecting worker rights.

I can't tell you how many wingers I've heard trash unions and then complain that their company screwed them over AGAIN.

[mountain grammy]

85. Funny, reading the posts on this thread.

talking about the death of public schools that W and company did his best to damage.. We had a Democratic president for 8 years and spent those 8 years still demonizing public schools. Democrats are demonizing public schools, it's right here on this thread. Why? Because Bernie Sanders had the nerve to speak up for free public education.. how very weird that Democrats yell we can't afford this. Democrats yell we're broke. Not Bernie! He's yelling about saving public schools, so we have to be against that, right? That's the message I'm getting here. America's not broke and we all know it.

Keep it up, folks. It's music to the ears of Betsy DeVos.