Christianity Today's weak article on Houston churches and Harvey

[bobbieinok]

Article was posted on August 28. It mostly lists Houston churches' prayers and requests for volunteers from churches outside Houston.

The journal is a conservative Christian journal and is a favorite of The Gospel Coalition. TGC is a reformed (ie Calvinist) organisation with strong emphasis on pre-destination, God's complete and total sovreignity, and 'limited atonement.'* It dominates today's Evangelical church and is taking (or maybe has taken) over the Southern Baptist Convention. Many of its members signed the Nashville Statement.

*'Limited atonement' states that Jesus did NOT die for eveyone; he died only for those whom God before the beginning of the universe chose to be saved. So pray The Sinner's Prayer as often as you wish; if you're not predestined to be saved TOUGH.

IMO this belief directly contradicts John 3:16. Also I don't see how with this new belief the SBC can justify the time, money, and energy they want those in the pews to spend (ie waste) on missions and evangelization. But then I'm not the one banking the weekly tithes and offerings.

[AJT]

1. What would be the point of churches at all?

[njhoneybadger]

5. To manipulate people

[NastyRiffraff]

7. $$$$$$ n/t

[dalton99a]

17. Well, somebody has to collect the money

and buy airplanes and hookers with it

[Not Ruth]

2. I like the idea of limited atonement

Either you are in or you are out

[WinkyDink]

8. So you think no matter how people actually live, they can still be okay with God, because

of "pre-destination"?

How conveeeeenient (tm Church Lady).

[Mariana]

21. That does seem to fit with the personality of God.

In the Bible, God chooses people and groups of people to receive his favour, or his disfavour, rather arbitrarily.

[choie]

3. I'm Jewish, so can someone enlighten me?

Where does the bible discuss "limited atonement?"

[WinkyDink]

10. It does not. That's the blessing of "interpretation," heh.

[njhoneybadger]

4. Predestination vs. free will

The biggest contradiction of the bible.

[WinkyDink]

9. Where is "predestination" in the Bible? God's foreknowledge is, but that simply means He knows of

human weakness.

P.S. I argue not from a belief system of any kind.

[njhoneybadger]

12. Romans 8:28

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

[standingtall]

13. Romans 8 verses 28,30

Ephesians 1:11 for starters the words predestinate or predestinated are used in the bible at least 3 times and it's also taught in many places without using the word such as John chapter 6 and John chapter 10.

[WinkyDink]

22. Oh, okay; I sit corrected. But it is NOT the same as "Thus, wealth means favored by God." That is

Osteen's "Prosperity Gospel."

Nor does it mean "Thus, the Chosen may live as they wish."

http://biblehub.com/romans/8-29.htm

[standingtall]

23. People are going to live as they wish regardless

Last edited Sun Sep 3, 2017, 01:12 AM - Edit history (1)

No one is putting a gun to someones head when they live wicked. However how a Christian lives has no bearing a over their eternal salvation because the live and righteous of Christ is imputed or accredited to them. Christians aren't saved by their lives but by Christ and his life his work and his person.

Pretty sure Joel Osteen's not a Calvinist. Calvinism teaches that wealth is neither reward or punishment,but merely bounties of providence. Some will say that John Calvin said he considered some of the luxuries he had as blessing which is true,but he also said all Christians should count whatever they had as blessings and things obtained through fraudulent means should not be counted as blessings.

The Christian right are largely not Calvinist. At best their selective Calvinist. Usually they hate the doctrines of grace,but when it suits their political agenda they discover God's sovereignty like when a President is in office they like,but when someones in office they don't like they chalk it up to the free will of man mucking up God's divine plan. In other words they only believe in God's sovereignty in places they approve.

[WinkyDink]

6. Well, it DOES say "Today" in its title. 'Tis pity 'tis true. Oh, and "saved" means "wealthy."

[standingtall]

11. Totally false to assert that todays Evangelical church is dominated by Calvinist

or those that believe in the doctrines of grace. Jerry Falwell was a well known anti-Calvinist and he like most of today's evangelical church believed in the free will of man over the sovereignty of God. The believe of limited or particular atonement does not contradict John 3:16 read on down to John to 3:18.

In John 17 right before Jesus went to the cross he said this. John 17 verse 9 I pray for them. I pray not for the world,but for them which God has given me; for they are thine.

Those of us who believe he doctrines of grace believe God in all power and all knowing God and therefore logically conclude that God does not fail to save anyone he intends to due to man's so called free will. We don't believe Jesus failed to save anyone he intended to save. We believe he atoned for all of the sins of his elect.

[bobbieinok]

15. SBC being taken over, led by Mohler

I'm no longer in the SBC. My info about the Calvinist take over comes from such things as

1) knowing that John Piper and Al Mohler are super Calvinists and SBC and TGC leaders

2) following the daily discussions at sites such as thewartburgwatch.com

Please note: many who comment at that site are Evangelicals who believe as you do. They discuss, among other things, that Evangelical churches have often called a new preacher only to discover that he is a Calvinist. Slowly through his sermons and .Bible studies and some new members he draws in he creates a congregation steeped in the Calvinist world-view. They work to inform Evangelicals that this is happening and snd to show them what they can do to protect their own church.

[standingtall]

18. You do know that the SBC was originally founded on Calvinistic doctrines?

Btw I am not a fan of Al Mohler or any of the Christian right for that matter rather they believe in doctrines of grace or free will. I also came out of the Southern Baptist Church myself in fact many Sovereign grace baptist have because the modern southern baptist church teaches to much freewillism. To me Al Mohler and especially John Piper are not super Calvinist but very weak Calvinist and I am not even sure John Piper is even a Calvinist sense he has denied limited atonement in the past.

[bobbieinok]

19. From what I have read

There's a major controversy over the original doctrines in the SBC. And how long they remained dominant and unchallenged.

I don't know about Piper and limited atonement. He's certainly a strong believer in the view that God causes everything that happens, from earthquakes and the resulting deaths to rape and to the murder and torture of children.

[LAS14]

14. Isn't there a Religion & Spirituality forum for this kind of discussion?

I'm not sure that I care, but if we have such forums, why not use them?

[bobbieinok]

16. I posted here because of Harvey and Osteen

[msongs]

20. its all about the $$. keep your hands off of my stack, jack nt