Why would protesters on the left wear masks?

[MineralMan]

I don't get it. Can someone explain this phenomenon to me?

[Sneederbunk]

1. Some are anarchists and not there to do good.

[MineralMan]

4. Ah, I see. But anarchists are not on the left, as

far as I can tell. They're something completely out of the spectrum.

Even so, why mask yourself? If you can't stand up for your position as yourself, what point is there in your protest. You lose your identity when you hide behind a mask. You're not saying "I protest this."

[pnwmom]

47. Exactly! People on the left believe in liberal or progressive or socialistic GOVERNMENT --

not NO government.

Anarchists seem more like an extreme version of libertarianism than anything else.

[sagesnow]

78. Agents Provocateurs??

During the W. Bush era, several protest group contended that Black Bloc were often undercover police officers. These individuals would smash a few windows so as to provide an excuse for military style police action by city cops to clear legitimate protesters out. As I recall, no one ever seemed to get caught and if they did no one ever received any jail time for the property destruction.

[wryter2000]

6. They've been disrupting protests in the Bay Area since the invasion of Iraq

Only now they have a cool sounding name.

[CentralMass]

33. They have been very destructive in Portland.

[Demsrule86]

100. And most are folks who understand the threat of a fascist president and a corrupt AG.

[wryter2000]

2. The ones in masks are there to cause trouble

They plan to get violent and don't want to get arrested. Totally unlike peaceful protesters.

They give the Nazis and KKK exactly what they want.

[MineralMan]

7. A mask won't prevent an arrest.

Silliness.

[wryter2000]

12. Many of the violent right were arrested after the fact

Because we had their pictures.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

16. It can create doubt about the identity of an assailant

making it hard to prosecute.

An arrest without prosecution is probably like a merit badge to the mask-wearers.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

25. A buddy of mine is a public defender or was a public defender

I met him one night for drinks after a really hard day. He said the one thing that went right is one of his clients robbed a currency exchange and wore mask. Sarcastically, "I was so proud of him that he wore a mask he actually me something to work with"

[AngryAmish]

82. In the south the antiKKK laws prevent protesting anything with a mask

You could be protesting magnolias.

It is a reasonable law.

[heaven05]

104. violence

must be met with violence if peaceful numbers like Boston are not enough to quell charlottesville type KKK and nazis. We must have those willing to step up on the line, like I did in my day, scars to prove it goddammit, to fight for the right to vote in THAT white supremacist time. Trying not to get arrested for busting a racist in the head with a brick? I don't blame them. There is a place for peaceful, non violent protesters like in Boston, yet........

[GaryCnf]

106. THIS

[applegrove]

3. They should be kicked out of any demonstration if they are wearing masks.

It means they are not there for peaceful protest.

[wryter2000]

10. Amen. n/t

n/t

[Zoonart]

19. Seriously...

can't we dispense with the cos-play baddassery?

[applegrove]

20. I don't understand what your last 3 words mean.

[Zoonart]

23. I mean costume play...

Cos play is a larping word for dressing up as characters for Live Action Role Play (LARP)...
and bad-assery should be self explanitory.

[applegrove]

29. That is exactly what they are doing.

[defacto7]

31. Sure, but how? Wearing a mask is not a crime

and throwing them out would start the brawl they're after.

[applegrove]

37. Point to them and yell "black block". That was done in previous years

and that undies the fantasy for them. Plus it identifies them for the police.

[heaven05]

105. do you even

understand that while police are killing them, the charlottesville type scenario shows that the nazis and Klan will get even more emboldened. The police are mainly RW sympathizers and stood around as RW agitators shot at people and fought peaceful counter protesters. So what if 'black block' is violent.

[CentralMass]

40. No but when these masked indvidial show up at protest and burn cars and smash windows of businesses

they become associatedwith violent destructive, costly crimes. This happened numerous times on Portland this year.

[PoliticAverse]

63. Actually in several places in the US it is illegal to protest while wearing a mask.

New York City and California, for example, have laws making wearing a mask while
protesting against the law.

[defacto7]

75. That's good. Wish it were that way in all states.

[AngryAmish]

84. AntiKKK laws certainly make protest masks illegal.

Remember the Klan? They are bad.

[PoliticAverse]

61. In many parts of the US it is illegal to be protesting wearing a mask.

New York City and California are 2 such places.

[riversedge]

101. but didn't the black bloc wearing masks show up at Berkley last weekend??

[AngryAmish]

83. You do it. They are armed and crazy.

[applegrove]

85. The police should do it. They could demand that they reveal their faces

or leave.

[AngryAmish]

86. Why should the police be arsed to do so?

Again, why start a fight you may not win. They want to set police on fire. They will Lynch people.

I don't go to protests. I play golf.

[applegrove]

88. Are we both talking about the black block on the left?

[snooper2]

5. because they are edgy, and cool, and F- the Establishment! We are the REAL PEOPLE

LOL-

really the reason they wear masks is they can't afford acne medication..

[jmg257]

8. Cause they intend to cause some havoc

And don't want to be identified?

[MineralMan]

9. Then I don't want to be associated with them.

[jmg257]

11. Good choice!

[randr]

13. Until one is arrested and we find out who they are I am not buying into

the narrative that they are leftists. I am inclined to believe they are the opposition agitators trying to put a bad face on demonstrators. Same thing happened in the sixties.

[spanone]

15. Bingo!

[FLPanhandle]

17. I don't know, there are some people here defending their violence

Some folks even on the left get off on violence.

[Not Ruth]

44. "they are nazis--and they should be destroyed on sight by any means available"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029537653#post19


But it doesn't really apply in this situation since we aren't dealing with self defense in the usual sense.

We are dealing with Nazis- not people, citizens, or even humans, they are nazis--and they should be destroyed on sight by any means available.

Nazis are a disease that must be eradicated.

[MichMan]

66. Eradicted???

Even if I disagree emphatically with their message, I don't advocate cold blooded murder of someone just for wearing a swastika in public or chanting some racist rhetoric.

[leftstreet]

18. +1

There were A LOT of them at WTO, Canada and Seattle

[LisaM]

38. I was in Seattle during WTO (I live here), and the anarchists (as they were termed then)

were a huge problem. From what I observed, they created the violence. There had been a number of permits issued for large, peaceful labor union marches. Those marches were totally disrupted, I don't even know if they all took place. Downtown became crazy.

I've seen this same group show up time after time in the PNW, masked, violent, and going by different names. Until someone shows me otherwise, those people or their successors are now going by the name Antifa (and I know this is an umbrella name), and are wearing disguises and clearly there to either cause or provoke violence.

I have seen a lot of defensive posts here, maybe some of it has to do with nomenclature. What - I hope - none of us like are the small and disruptive groups of masked provocateurs. I think in some cases those people helped Trump by showing up at some of his rallies. It definitely created a "both sides do it" storyline, even if it was five disruptors and 2000 Trump supporters.

I get that people are angry, I get that people don't like Fascism, or that they fear it. I get that their are huge issues with the WTO and there were legitimate reasons to show up in Seattle in 1999 to protest the IMF. But the streets became dangerous, and there was no reason for that to happen.

[wryter2000]

46. They were at the marches to protest the invasion of Iraq before we even invaded

They were the sole cause of all the trouble that got featured on the evening news. It was an utter disgrace.

AFAIC, if you aren't willing to show your face, you shouldn't be marching. And the heroes of the civil rights movement weren't afraid of being arrested because they'd done nothing wrong.

[LisaM]

56. Yes, I went to a couple of anti-war marches before the fact too. Same thing.

The large masses of peaceful marchers were never shown on the news that I saw, just the violent protestors and the people dressed as sea turtles (god bless them, but I felt that more focus about the war was needed).

[MichMan]

67. There were a lot of Guy Fawkes masks worn during "Occupy Wall Street" nm

[socialist_n_TN]

71. The "heroes of the civil rights movement" might not have done anything wrong.............

but they did a LOT of stuff that was illegal.

[wryter2000]

74. Good point

I stand corrected

[GulfCoast66]

87. Yeah, becausing it was illegal for blacks to vote or sit where they want on a bus

But I do not remember the 'heroes of the civil rights movement' showing up dressed like ninjas, breaking shit left and right and physically attacking those they disagree with. Hell, they did not even physically attack those physically attacking them.

Had they done so, then the 'heroes of the civil rights movement' would have spent their lives in jail and African Americans would still not be allowed to vote nor sit where they want on a bus.

The 'heroes of the civil rights movement' counted on the basic decency of a majority of Americans to override the inherent racism most white Americans possess whether aware of it or not. And they were correct.

I support non-violence. It has a proven track record.

Have a nice evening

[PoliticAverse]

92. Martin Luther King was arrested about 30 times for protesting. He even wrote a book in jail. n/t

[Zoonart]

21. I agree entirely...

that's what I thought immediately, when I first became aware of them at the innauguration.

[metalbot]

43. You mean like the bike lock professor?

His attorneys are trying to run a lot of interference based on the mask, but it's almost certainly him. The photo evidence is ridiculously damning.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/26/professor-suspected-in-berkeley-bike-lock-attack-arraigned-in-oakland-court/


Masks empower people to act badly, and that's independent of where they fall on the political spectrum.

[uponit7771]

59. +1

[leftstreet]

14. It started in Europe

70s Germany specifically. And a response to police brutality. Seemed to become a 'uniform' of sorts for other protestors globally though

In the US it seems mostly symbolic to me (well, when it's not used to hide provocateurs). Much like baby Trumper supremacists suddenly wearing the Trump golf 'uniform.'

[ProgressiveValue]

22. Aren't they breaking the law?

The reason the KKK and Nazis weren't wearing masks wasn't because they wanted to show their faces, it is because the legally couldnt cover up for the protests. That was my understanding. So aren't these ANTIFA trouble makers breaking the law by masking up before coming to protests?

[Lee-Lee]

27. In some states, yes

Mostly southern states have anti-mask laws that ban wearing masks in public.

[obamanut2012]

34. Of course they can cover their faces -- many of the KJKKers in CVille did

As did many of the Nazis.

Good try saying the Antifa are lawbreakers, but EPIC FAIL.

[X_Digger]

90. Depends on the state. Good try saying that the laws are the same everywhere. Epic Fail.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/us/protests-masks-laws.html?mcubz=0

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

24. Defining them as on the left is a convenient way for reporters or those on the right

to assign them a status. I don't think they are necessarily left. Anarchists might be closer to their politics. Or they could just be hiding from facial identification technology.

[Lee-Lee]

26. Its the "Black Bloc" strategy

They all wear all black and masks to evade arrest after being violent. The strategy is that an individual rushes forward out of the crowd of masked people all in black, commits an act of violence against an open or police, then melts back into the "black bloc" crowd that all allow the same so they can't be identified for arrest.

They generally also have regular clothes in their packs. They travel to protests in regular clothes to stay incognito and will rush to change clothes after to try and leave without arrest.

If someone shows up for a protest in all black like that they are there either to be violent or use that to give cover to those who are.

[obamanut2012]

32. lulz

[Hoyt]

48. Kind of like these guys, gunz and all --

?w=720

[Lee-Lee]

93. Those guys are a lot less organized

But yeah, more similar than most people would care to admit.

[LonePirate]

28. Given the angry, heavily armed, bigoted people they are protesting, they might be for safety.

By safety, I mean the protection of their identities. Obviously they don't provide much protection from a bullet.

[zipplewrath]

41. That's what I heard

It's to prevent the fascists from hunting them down and doing them harm.

[obamanut2012]

30. Because the ones with masks are cops

This has been proven many times.

[MrsCoffee]

53. +1

[Not Ruth]

35. DU's former antifa black bloc member answers many of your questions

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9452214

[LexVegas]

36. Because masks are scary. nt

[Warpy]

39. Mostly an affectation by young punks looking for fights.

however, in places like Ferguson when the demonstrations went on for weeks, people wear them to help ward off tear gas and pepper spray. Clear plastic face masks work better.

[ProgressiveValue]

49. I'm not sure how smart that is.

The police use tear gas and pepper spray as a non-lethal means to stop anyone causing violence. If the person has on protection against those non-lethal means, out comes the lethal means. It isn't like the police are going to say "ah those bottle throwers one-upped us with their face masks! We've been out foxed, guess we'll pack up and leave them to it."

[Warpy]

52. Police have been out of control and use these things on peaceful crowds

Or don't you remember the Ferguson demonstrations?

[ProgressiveValue]

57. I remember them.

After a few antagonizers made violence, the police treated every protestor as violent. The police were out of control. That doesn't change the point. If they are using non-lethal means, and see someone unaffected becasuse they are wearing protection, they may consider using lethal means. I'm not defending their actions, I'm just saying how they might respond to gas masks.

[mythology]

42. There are a number of reasons

Some could be there to commit violence and want to make identification more difficult.

Some could be worried about reprisal from others. Whether it's a boss with different political beliefs or being worried about being doxxed from people online. Considering the incompetent online vigilante mob led by idiots like Shaun King inaccurately identified people like Kyle Quinn resulting in death threats against innocent people, it certainly lowers the incentive to join a protest given that some percentage of people on either side are happy to threaten murder and rape.

Some might have family members who would object. A woman at an anti-domestic violence rally might have an abusive husband at home.

Some might be worried about deportation if they are here without documentation.

Some might fear reprisal in a home country against themselves or family. China for one has been known to punish family members of dissidents.

Some could fear Trump will start a program of punishing his political opponents.

[Not Ruth]

45. It is part of the uniform, a way to distinguish themselves from the opposition and the sheep

[bonemachine]

54. nah

Obviously they are all just violent troublemakers and agent provocateurs.

/s

[Coventina]

50. Facial recognition technology. n/t

[aikoaiko]

51. I believe the history of the mask/helmet black bloc tactic was to avoid police harassment/arrest

when they were protesting.

https://timeline.com/black-bloc-started-1980s-e228bf3981b4

[guillaumeb]

55. Some might be police personnel.

COINTELPRO comes immediately to mind, as well as the attempts to infiltrate and control various Occupy groups.

Others are undoubtedly idiots from both sides who advocate for violence.

[Madam45for2923]

58. Because they are "special" and doing something very "special" & "sincere" & they mean "well"

MineralMan
0. Why would protesters on the left wear masks?

I don't get it. Can someone explain this phenomenon to me?

[maxsolomon]

60. Typical DU Pearl-clutching.

Bandanas are worn at protests all over the planet. People would prefer not to be arrested.

Wear a mask, don't wear a mask; it doesn't matter. The protests of the Left are never going to be legitimated by the Media, the Government, the GOP, or, hell, most Liberal Bourgeoisie.

Only in America do we expect perfect Ghandian non-violence from protests, and we only expect it from the Left. The Right gets to carry guns, while we clutch our pearls about bandanas.

[socialist_n_TN]

73. THIS

"..and we only expect it from the Left". And I'm glad you capitalized "Left". Because it's the real Left, for the most part, that's out there. It ain't the liberals cowering at home clutching their pearls and expecting the cops to "save" them from the Nazis.

[forgotmylogin]

62. Realistically...

If you're talking about bandanas tied around the bottom of the face, mouth, and nose, those could practically provide some protection from inhalants such as tear gas or smoke grenades, especially paired with goggles or protective eyewear.

I've seen interviews with protestors wearing a bandana around their neck, and that provides a quick way to cover their face while leaving the hands free. Even if you're not a violent protestor at a rally, it's probably a good idea to have this in case the wind changes and you wind up in the path of smoke or gas. I had friends who went to the Ferguson protests where they got stuck in the mild fallout from a cloud of tear gas when it was deployed further down the block.

I agree that a legit protest should not be anonymous, but having this around your neck and available in case of emergency makes sense.

[Not Ruth]

70. STAY PEACEFUL. Peaceful protest is the only way to be take seriously and be truly heard.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/10/ows-flier-defending-against-tear-gas/

“Tear gas is a non-lethal chemical weapon that stimulates the corneal nerves in the eyes to cause tearing, pain, and even blindness,” one part of the eerily elegant flier states. It explains that the best defense is a mixture of water and liquid antacid, applied from a spray bottle. It details how to “be proactive” and protect fellow protesters in a crowd who are less prepared for a gas attack. And above all, it stresses: “STAY PEACEFUL. Peaceful protest is the only way to be take seriously and be truly heard.”

[X_Digger]

91. A bandanna doesn't stop either smoke or tear gas.

Protective goggles will keep your eyes clear, but a bandanna might as well be made of tissue paper.

[Expecting Rain]

64. I've come up with: "No Face, No Place!"

Meaning you can't be with us if you're wearing a mask.

Berkeley Political Science education paying off.

[WinkyDink]

65. To not be tracked by the Fascists in the Trump Administration?

[MichMan]

69. I remember a lot of Guy Fawkes masks worn by "Occupy Wall Street" nm

[Tommy_Carcetti]

72. That got played out fast.

To the point of being just an obnoxious cliche.

[politicat]

76. I'm someone who did it. I can give you my reasons.

I was involved in direct actions from about 1992 to 2004, and protests (demonstrations) from about 1984 to present. (I don't count the ERA demonstrations that my grandmothers took me to as an infant and toddler, but we could call this lifetime demonstration at this point.) I stepped out of direct action as my joints got older and more fragile, and as the legislative and political solutions became more effective, and as my professional work ramped up. I can't leave a client hanging out in the midst of a bad PTSD break because I got myself put in lockup.

Just so we're clear: A direct action is hanging a sign, or keeping a clinic from being blockaded, or sitting in where we're told we're not wanted -- civil disobedience, and sometimes doing things that are technically illegal, like hanging a very large banner from the side of a tall building, or removing an illegal barricade (like barbed wire fences on federal land not installed by the Feds. SovCits pull this shit.). A demonstration is a march or a rally. They're different. There's a fine line between a demonstration and civil disobedience, and it's not at all bright, and Phoenix-metro cops have never had a consistent policy. (As we saw last week, when they shot gas cannisters without warning and without issuing a disperse order. There's video. Just because they've got a new sheriff doesn't mean the culture has changed in the PDs or on the force.) Direct action also means protecting fragile or frail bodies who are demonstrating -- as in, AIDS patients who are protesting for medical rights. We'd bloc to keep the cops from hurting them, because they could be hurt. My group did not use weapons; we did use shields, because when there's 25 of us, and 75 cops with batons who just want to kill them a _____, and 100 people in wheelchairs...

My primary focuses were HIV/AIDS/LGBTQ activism, reproductive rights, and justice issues. If my accomplices in environmental, immigration, or Econ justice needed bodies, I'd go to demonstrations, just as they'd come to ours, but when I went to theirs, I was there as part of the crowd (not usually masked, and not on front line) and when they came to ours, they were not on our front line. The reason for this is because specialists know their ground, and activists in a focus area know what's more likely to cause issues. We tried not to run amateur hour.

We tried not to be amateurs because 90% of my protest action from 1993 to 1997/8 was in Maricopa County, Arizona, and our primary adversaries were abusive cops, not Nazis. Now, even abusive cops are easier than Nazis, because even the most abusive, useless, nepotistic, Biff of a cop has a teeny bit of jobsworth in their shriveled souls, and would like to keep their pension, please. Nazis, not so much. Yes, the MCSO was profiling and keeping files on activists. It's one of their lesser crimes. They took pics and made very bullshit arrests that destroyed lives or at least took activists out of action for a while. I also did not yet have my professional license, and would not get one with any arrest record, and I had a scholarship that could be revoked for any political action, as defined by the extremely conservative, very religious, but publicly elected Board of Regents. (I had to sign a "Not a Communist" document every single semester. Doesn't matter that I've never considered myself a communist nor an anarchist; the BoR did not have an appeals process accessible to a student with no money for legal representation.) The cops -- not allies. Very dangerous, and I was a white chick with a 4.0 who could pass as straight, semi-conservative and middle class. Much worse for those who couldn't pass.

I also did Pink Bloc - defending the space around clinics so people could access them without being harassed. Some of the forced-birthers were stalking us. Literal stalking, as in sitting outside our houses, following us, brandishing weapons, and splashing red paint or beef blood on our doors. And the MCSO/city PDs were not doing anything about it, because stalking laws in the mid 90s did not have teeth, and the majority of the police and dominant culture would have been happy to see the clinics burnt and all of us tossed on the pyre. So, yeah, we used light-weight, wet cotton scarves like hijab, wore reflective sunglasses, hats and other facial obscurations. Sunglasses, scarves and hats were also for pure protection -- that sun is brutal.

Before pepper spray became common (so early to mid 90s), when the cops wanted to break a line, they'd pick a woman to target. If we were all masked and wearing similar, dark, baggy clothes, they had a tougher time picking their target. Masks helped *prevent* violence, because when the cops target a chick in the line, the guys tended to get protective and would turn from defensive line to offensive line (and start throwing punches back). Nobody ever said demonstrators are perfect at gender equality, and White Knighting hadn't really entered the vocabulary then.

I don't mask now. I'm less vulnerable. I have privilege. I can deal with an arrest, we have the money and connections for a decent lawyer. I no longer live in a place where being arrested has a double digit chance of ending my life and a high double digit chance of a sexual assault in custody. (More of the MCSO crimes.) If my photo makes it into a "horrible person" database, ok. It's already there, because of my professional work, my political work, and because I happen to share a first name and a birthday with an IRA problem child. (I get the SSSS tag on my boarding passes, were I so inclined to fly. I don't.) They can't take my degree, or my doctorate, and they can't take my academic work, and I don't strictly need my professional license to do my work, but I also cannot lose it for anything less than a specific set of felony convictions. But if I were a politically active student aiming at my same professional license? I'd tell her to mask, or at least wear a runner's buff. (They're also useful for holding back hair, and staying warm or not sunburnt.)

And it's a much nastier surveillance culture now. Back then, all the photos had to be developed, and they were on film, and the cameras had to have the film changed every 36 pictures, and good cameras were expensive, big, and bulky, so obvious, and photography required more skill. Facial recognition was very nearly science fiction, and not nearly as easy as it is now. Now? It's so much easier. And let's not even go into amateur surveillance, online stalking and harassment -- I can refer you to people who have been SWATted, and people who have had their financial and personal lives disrupted by malicious trolls. Read up on GmrG8. (The more I write about this, the more tempted I am to mask 24/7/365. Which I won't, but I can understand why someone would.)

If I may, can I suggest a piece of fiction that is fairly good at describing the reality of surveillance and protest now? Cory Doctorow's Little Brother and Homeland. Some of the tech doesn't exist (like his xbox-Linux and mesh networks are proving more difficult than expected) but the way dissent is crushed and young activists' lives can be ruined is accurate.

[dembotoz]

79. Thank you for your service

[bigtree]

80. +1

[bullwinkle428]

89. Appreciate the insight - that was tremendously enlightening!

[CanSocDem]

94. Absolutely brilliant response. Thank you. (eom)

[grantcart]

96. I find your posts very interesting

Really like the Quakers and the Friends Service Committee, during the Vietnam War the FSC material allowed us to set up teach ins and it was a very sophisticated and mature campaign.

How does the current FSC work with the Antifa?

I am guessing that there is a wide range of difference of people involved and a significant difference between local leadership between action in different cities. It was clear that a lot of the action in places like Seattle were by actual anarchists.

[politicat]

97. I can only talk about my local community.

I am not a regular part of my very local Meeting, because I'm non-theist and my local Meeting is pretty theologically conservative (also, local is a programmed meeting, I grew up unprogrammed, and sermons make me twitchy; also, I minimize my driving, so I won't spend two hours on the road for an hour of unprogrammed meditation), so I am officially affiliated with a UU community that's walking distance away, and with the state level FSC. This isn't uncommon for non-theist Quakers. We make others uncomfortable and it grows wearing to have to reiterate that faith in the principles is just as valid as faith in the principles through a deity.

Once again, we're back to the definitional differences: not all antifa bloc, not all bloc tactical groups are antifa. Just because I have to say it every time.

The state level FSC is quietly cooperative with the more defined-principle direct action/bloc groups. If FSC is coordinating for an event, they will coordinate with groups and individuals they've worked with in the past and have built relationships with, knowing that those groups will respect the choices FSC makes. And to be perfectly honest, all direct action does cause discussion on tactics and principles, and the last decade has been pretty quiet on the direct action front, so we're all rebuilding networks. FSC in my region works with Food Not Bombs and local, direct action social justice work, so were involved with Occupy, but we've mostly been demonstrating and doing street direct action (feeding those living on the streets, warming shelters, needle exchange, helping do VA and social services paperwork and getting people into housing first) since about 2004. (I happen to live in a state with a massive, solid, medical provider bubble law, that applies to dentists and nephrologists and neurologists as well as reproductive clinics, so we don't have to do much clinic protection. Makes it much easier.) This all means we haven't had much practice with the larger scale protection and direct action in over a decade, and we haven't been teaching young'uns the more adamant techniques. We thought maybe we wouldn't need to. Our mistake. (Also, no confederate monuments, and while our arrest rate for PoC is 3x the percentage of the population, a 3x arrest rate is 1/4 the national average, so while we have work to do, what we're doing is working, and the rate is coming down by about 15% per year. Social justice is Zeno's Paradox.)

The continuum usually looks something like Interfaith Council fades into FSC fades into FNB fades into IWW (Wobblies -- still around, still active) fades into bloc groups, who are usually 10-25 people, who have a strong internal trust circle, and are loosely affiliated with one of the groups elsewhere on the continuum. Or Indivisible to Women's Dem Committee to Code Pink to bloc group. It's very much a person to person coordination and communication. (And on the other end, there are also street theater groups and cosplayers and we've got a granny chorus and some other performance art groups who aren't officially part of An Organization, but are contributing to events. Same concept, different implementation. Phone calls/messages to either wing usually go, "hey, ya'll coming to Thing?" "Sure! See ya there - do we need to bring our Thing?" "Yeah, but not the Puppets/Amplifier/shields. We don't have a permit for Thing" or "Hey, If the cops look pissed, we're gonna do litter patrol." "Okay. We'll bring brownies!" Really, it's that simple once groups have a trust relationship.)

From my UU side, we're doing informal training on passive to passive-aggressive resistance and civil disobedience, especially with those we can see wanting more direct action. I wish I could say I had a better diagnostic than "that kid feels like they want action" but it really is a feeling. It's a harm reduction strategy -- a young, frustrated, tightly bonded peer group who just want to right the wrongs are going to get into the mix. We give them the tools to do so with wisdom, peace, and a degree of safety.

We're not seeing much local direct action right now -- ADAPT sit-ins, mostly -- and ADAPT specifically does not want temporarily able-bodied protective blocs. We respect their decision. (They have their own strategies and tactics, and they WORK.) Instead, I've been teaching the kids in my community to scout a rally site the night before, looking for choke points and escape routes, watching for barricade prep and getting an idea of what to expect, and then holding those escape routes during event. We're less worried here about gas grenades and rubber bullets than a kettle, and that's what we want to prevent. And street medic and street observer team strategies. And to think outside of an authoritarian box. But these kids are smart -- they have stellar eyes for media manipulation and they're skeptical, so when they see something that looks sketchy, they either disbelieve it, or bring it to a trusted Old for evaluation, and they're building amazing communication strategies.

I am now an Old, so it's a more delicate balance when doing outreach to the punk scene now. I do have my ins, but it's mostly about offering information, building trust, and respecting agency. In my experience, punk political activists often come from a background of long-standing, mostly invisible trauma -- emotionally abusive families, bullying, long-term poverty -- and direct action is a way of reclaiming their own agency and sense of place within society. That's necessary for healing, so they have to make decisions on their own terms, and they have to come to the decision to stop before they go aggressive as a group. Neither I, nor any larger Organization can control that within them. When we -- as peace types and as political organizations -- condemn their actions by equating them with truly criminal gangs, we actually fuel their conviction that we've discarded them. Which adds to their aggression. Thus, why I'm saying so strongly -- don't condemn these kids out of hand. They consider themselves our allies.

It's extremely difficult to reach a hand of friendship to a Nazi and get back anything but a stump, but that's not true with young, punk-oriented, semi-anarchist, Bloc groups and Antifa groups. They respond very well to kindness and acceptance and listening. These kids may look scary, but they're kind and empathetic and are willing to put the only thing they've ever felt ownership over -- their bodies -- between a Nazi and others. Yes, they take risks and they're often quick to escalate, but they're so young. That's being young, and we were all impulsive at a similar stage, and those of us who forget that are doing them a disservice. They can and do cooperate with parameters if they feel they have a voice in the action, and if they feel heard. At this point, that's my primary coordinating between antifa, FSC and UU youth. And being a voice that can talk honestly and kindly in the other direction.

[Nevernose]

77. Tear gas: the police are NOT liberal's friends.

If soaked in vinegar or urine. They also help avoid arrest. That's why you see so many arrests of innocent protestors who just happened to be in the area, or why that kid got the shit kicked out of him in the parking garage of the Charlottesville police station and didn't seem to want to do shit, or why that guy felt free popping off a round into the middle of a crowd -- while police watched -- and would have never faced consequences had activists not posted the video (he's arrested on "discharging a firearm within 1000 feet of a school" which ppl have made convincing arguments is a decent charge, but still sounds hinkey to me).

It's the police who infiltrate groups like the DSA and people planning protests, who send in undercover cops to create crime and entrap suspects, who have literally been "infiltrating" pacifist QUAKER churches for fifty years.

That's where it started, anyway. Liberal activists, like many other groups in this country, don't have to commit any crimes to get arrested or worse.

I'm not antifa (I'm old and fat and partially disabled), but I still worry about RW nutjobs threatening my family or my job. While I think tha Nazis and Klansmen and shit like that should be publicly excoriated, I don't think run of the mill political protestors, either pro or anti Trump, should have their lives attacked or ruined. We won't do that to them, but they'ld do that to us in a heartbeat just to put a momnt's warmth in their cold hearts.

(And I'm also a little paranoid since the time I was at a big union rally/protest about ten years ago. Showed up to work the next day and a friend, luckily even more liberal than me, pointed me out on the front page. There were five hundred people in that crowd scene...)

[politicat]

81. Antifa is not bloc; bloc is not antifa.

Us olds can still be against fascism. For me, it's now stuff like tracking online trolls, and using the built structures of the law in service of the defenseless. An example, not mine: Someone followed a twitter troll to 4chan, then through a couple white nationalist message boards, and then got to their personal facebook page. This waste of molecules had been abusing the step-children and bragging about it on the WN board. With that correlation (images posted on the FB page matched to the ones on the WN board), there was a credible threat to the welfare of the children to make a report. Which got the kids transferred to the other parent, who was not WN, and got visitation made supervised.

It takes thick skin and good computer security, but antifa is about 70% intel work, 20% advocacy, and about 10% bloc tactics. It's a lot like amateur cold case work and missing persons work, except Nazis are still typing (usually badly.)

[alarimer]

95. Why not?

Who the fuck cares? Maybe in our age of knee-jerk Twitter shaming they don't want to be fired or something. The mob can and does go after the wrong people, as happened after Charlottesville.

I am so fucking sick of lliy-livered centrist liberal conventional wisdom. You know what? When you want change, sometimes head have to roll. Do you think the Civil Rights movement was all peaches and cream? That "love beats hatred"? Does that ever actually fucking work? Maybe the Abraham Lincoln Brigade should have just held sit-ins or something?

Enough hand-wringing and pearl-clutching. And buying into the right-wing narrative on these folks.

[Not Ruth]

98. Antifa activities now classified as domestic terror violence by feds

http://www.newsweek.com/are-antifa-terrorists-658396

To start with, that should concern the 200+ arrested on Inauguration Day.

But also in general, federal charges tend to carry longer actual served time than similar state charges.

[Demsrule86]

99. They are being targeted by Sessions justice department ...recently he got a court order for every

single person's identity who went to a website for inaugural protest. I went on that website...ended up going on the woman's march instead. I would definitely not make myself a Target of a corrupt AG who uses his office as a weapon. Sessions is re-prosecuting the case against the woman who laughed at him...it was thrown out of court not long ago. I have no doubt that the power of the executive branch which includes Sessions in this case will be used against Americans who don't agree with or like Trump.

[beachbum bob]

102. becasue wearing white sheets is being done already.....

besides if these "protesters" are the "anarchist" kind, they offer nothing but disruption and nothing to the debate

[GaryCnf]

103. While I have no sympathy for Black Bloc

This is just silliness.

They do not proudly show their faces like the protestors we purport to support, at least until the make Reagan Democrats queasy, because they are not PROTESTING. They are DISRUPTING. They do not believe the system will work for them so they seek to make sure it does not work at all. Here, where we are joined to make the system work in favor of our interests, it is no surprise they are attacked and mocked.

I disagree with the premise that the system cannot work to dismantle the oppression of global capitalism. The fact that toeholds have been gained in places like Chile where Allende was democratically elected suggests such a dismal view is too extreme. I rise to their defense only because the attacks leveled against them are identical to the racist attacks on BLM for blocking traffic and blanket condemnation of law enforcement and on groups like the BPP for taking up arms against white oppression. Just because disruption and/or violence might be excessive in this setting does not mean it always is.