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Trump said it's okay for him to pardon Joe Arpaio because Bill Clinton pardoned Marc Rich (Original Post) spanone Aug 2017 OP
Neither pardon should have been issued mythology Aug 2017 #1
but one does not in any way excuse the other. unblock Aug 2017 #3
Pretty much. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2017 #2
Justifying a despicable act because someone else committed a despicable act...is, well. sad. spanone Aug 2017 #4
"Whataboutism," they call it. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2017 #5
That is how most republicans roll. Blue_true Aug 2017 #15
SOP for Republicans: They defend themselves by pointing to Democratic behavior THEY CONDEMNED. WinkyDink Aug 2017 #6
Exactly. nt Blue_true Aug 2017 #16
How Many? Leith Aug 2017 #7
Well - he did become a fugitive staying out of the country to avoid trial karynnj Aug 2017 #12
I Agree Leith Aug 2017 #17
One sleazy pardon doesn't excuse another FLPanhandle Aug 2017 #8
Arpaio is worse. Just like hitler is worse than Castro JI7 Aug 2017 #9
Why do you need to compare them? karynnj Aug 2017 #11
Two wrongs make a right? Both were terrible karynnj Aug 2017 #10
Rich was openly a racist? uponit7771 Aug 2017 #13
So Trump admitted that pardon Arpaio was the wrong thing to do? Nevernose Aug 2017 #14

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,748 posts)
2. Pretty much.
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 05:30 PM
Aug 2017

Marc Rich's pardon was very controversial, and Clinton said later that he shouldn't have done it. Rich, who seems to have been pretty much of a sleazebag, had been indicted for income tax evasion, wire fraud, racketeering, and trading with Iran during the oil embargo (on charges brought by Rudy Giuliani, of all people, when he was a US Attorney). Fearing arrest, Rich left the country. In defending the pardon, Clinton claimed he'd received requests for clemency for Rich from a number Israeli government officials. Clinton did not go through all the customary procedures before granting the pardon, but as a condition of the pardon Rich agreed to drop all procedural defenses against any civil actions brought against him by the United States. A subsequent investigation found no wrongdoing by Clinton.

In a February 18, 2001 op-ed essay in The New York Times, Clinton (by then out of office) explained why he had pardoned Rich, noting that U.S. tax professors Bernard Wolfman of the Harvard Law School and Martin Ginsburg of Georgetown University Law Center had concluded that no crime had been committed, and that Rich's companies' tax-reporting position had been reasonable. In the same essay, Clinton listed Lewis "Scooter" Libby as one of three "distinguished Republican lawyers" who supported a pardon for Rich. (Libby himself later received a presidential commutation for his involvement in the Plame affair.) During Congressional hearings after Rich's pardon, Libby, who had represented Rich from 1985 until the spring of 2000, denied that Rich had violated the tax laws but criticized him for trading with Iran at a time when that country was holding U.S. hostages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich

Clinton probably shouldn't have pardoned Rich, but at least he was able to offer credible reasons for having done so. The major difference between the Rich pardon and the Arpaio pardon is that Arpaio was pardoned for the crime of willfully violating a court order arising from claims that, as a law enforcement officer, he violated the civil rights of Latino people with absolutely no justification. And Trump did it only because he wanted to throw red meat to his racist base. Clinton pardoned Rich on the recommendation of other people and under the belief that he had a reasonable basis for claiming his innocence. It may not have been a god decision but it wasn't an in-your-face fuck-you to the judicial branch.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,748 posts)
5. "Whataboutism," they call it.
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 05:40 PM
Aug 2017

Trump pardons a dreadful old racist who intentionally violated a court order directing him to stop violating the constitutional rights of Latinos. He defends it by saying "What about Marc Rich?" Rich was a sleaze who shouldn't have been pardoned, but his pardon doesn't justify Arpaio's.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
15. That is how most republicans roll.
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 08:02 PM
Aug 2017

They think they should get three burger for free if Democrats get one for free.

Leith

(7,809 posts)
7. How Many?
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 06:24 PM
Aug 2017

How many people died because Marc Rich illegally incarcerated them?

How many judicial orders did Marc Rich spit at and disobey?

Well?

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
12. Well - he did become a fugitive staying out of the country to avoid trial
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 07:42 PM
Aug 2017

I think the sheriff did far worse things, but this is not a contest. This is a pradon that Clinton should never have granted - if only because the guy did not stand trial.

Leith

(7,809 posts)
17. I Agree
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 08:06 PM
Aug 2017

Rich's pardon raised quite a stink - and rightfully so.

Still, Arpaio and his department was responsible for civil rights violations and deaths of people simply for being hispanic.

Both pardons were bad. Arpaio's was worse.

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
8. One sleazy pardon doesn't excuse another
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 06:29 PM
Aug 2017

Rick nor Arpaio should have been pardoned.

In an ideal world, both would be rotting in a prison somewhere.

JI7

(89,252 posts)
9. Arpaio is worse. Just like hitler is worse than Castro
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 07:29 PM
Aug 2017

Just like you couldn't defend supporting hitler now by bringing up Obama opening relations with cuba.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
11. Why do you need to compare them?
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 07:37 PM
Aug 2017

One reason the Rich pardon should never have happened was that he was a fugitive who fled the country rather than stand trial. Though no reason was given for his pardon, his wife was a huge donor to the Clinton Library (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2001/02/10/denise-rich-gave-clinton-library-450000/e0e10291-841a-4e38-893e-d500ee4a5b30/?utm_term=.672c9e09fb1b )

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
10. Two wrongs make a right? Both were terrible
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 07:33 PM
Aug 2017

Rich was terrible because he was involved in lots of things including things breaking the sanctions on Iran and things related to BCCI and because he was a fugitive, who never stood trial because he fled the country. Not everything Bill Clinton did was right because he was a Democrat.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
14. So Trump admitted that pardon Arpaio was the wrong thing to do?
Mon Aug 28, 2017, 07:53 PM
Aug 2017

Because that's the logical conclusion from that argument.

And while Marc Rich was a sleazy white collar criminal, to the best of my knowledge he never said, "Arrest everybody that looks Mexican, and we can sort out citizenship later." Because that's essentially what Arpaio was doing. Many people were locked up for days, weeks, and months and were never even accused of a crime. They just didn't have their wallets on them when the deputies decided to arrest literally every Latino in the building. Some of the Trumpsters are just plain racists (implicit and explicit), but I honestly believe many of them just know that "Sheriff Joe" was "tough on illegal immigration," with no understanding of what that actually entailed.

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