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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy isn't Jared Kushner offended by Trump's anti-semitism?
If he'S religious enough to make Ivanka convert, you'd think Trump would bother him.
no_hypocrisy
(46,202 posts)DDySiegs
(253 posts)nycbos
(6,039 posts)atreides1
(16,093 posts)Can always convert!!!
lunasun
(21,646 posts)maveric
(16,446 posts)Nuff said.
C_U_L8R
(45,021 posts)It certainly ain't rock and roll. Don't know about the drugs. Don certainly has the sniffles. But he doesn't seem like the sharing type.
haveahart
(905 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)What the heck does that mean?
sagesnow
(2,824 posts)Jared refused to marry Ivanka unless she converted to Judaism-- and she did.
CottonBear
(21,596 posts)whathehell
(29,094 posts)It supposedly derives from the fact that, in the bad open days of rape and pillage, paternity couldn't always be assured. This isn't generally the case in present day Western societies.
d_r
(6,907 posts)whathehell
(29,094 posts)d_r
(6,907 posts)it is a show about paternity tests and revealing who the real daddy is
whathehell
(29,094 posts)or if it's just not relevant to this conversation about Jewish maternity.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I did not realize he had given her an ultimatum of that nature. Do you have a source for that?
sagesnow
(2,824 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Interesting to know.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Be raised Jewish. Another couple might not have felt this was necessary.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not that he had made her do it. Just based on the way she has talked about it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Familial pressure- they did feel the kids would never be Jewish if they mother didn't convert first. And this was important for culture as well as religious reasons. My industry had a high percentage of observant Jews so if always heard stories about people not being able to date outside their faith, or talking about having to convert for the family- often a inheritence depended on it. The older generations didn't want Judaism to disappear.
There was generally less pressure on men, as long as the kids would be raised in the Jewish faith. But one of my friend's grandparents offer to buy an expensive apartment for the couple if her husband converted, so he did. Their wedding had some of the old traditions (they went in a closet together for five minutes after the wedding, had some sort of scroll contracts to sign) a klezmer band and Alan Dershowitz came!
I think it's a bit more about cultural preservation than anything, although the marriage contract itself was a bit more pro- woman than I imagined. Fairly common in NYC area, anyway. It's a noted phenomenon that the converted becomes more enthusiastic about it that the Jew born that way. But in my friend's case they were both agnostic, so you never know.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Their grandparents were dead by the time they were old enough. My brother didn't have to convert, but he did promise that any kids would be raised in the Jewish faith.
But they don't do temple or anything, because their mom isn't observant.
unblock
(52,331 posts)he identifies as a jew, that is all that matters. anti-semitism affects all who identify as jews, it doesn't matter "how religious" any one of us are. anti-semites don't cares whether a jew keeps kosher or not, keep shabbat or not, goes to temple or not. if you identify as a jew, that's all that matters.
as for "making" ivanka convert, i don't know the details behind that particular situation, but i suspect that ivanka had a say in the matter!
as to your actual question, i imagine that it does bother him, but he no doubt sees more than enough of a personal upside to outweigh it. many republicans have made such calculations ever since nixon welcomed the haters with open arms.
whathehell
(29,094 posts)or even given her an "ultimatum" -- convert or I won't marry you. I heard Steven Spielberg did this to his second wife. I would have told him to to pound sand, but that's just me.
unblock
(52,331 posts)But it's common for non-Jews to assume that if the fiancée or wife of a Jewish man converts to Judaism, it must be because the man pressured her. I can't say it never happens but I certainly can say it's very unfair and borders on anti-semitism.
Sorry if I'm a bit sensitive on this point; mrs. Unblock converted and I would never, ever have pressured her into doing anything like that.
whathehell
(29,094 posts)I don't know if it is common or not for non-Jews to assume pressure in the case of spouse conversions -- I have two gentile friends who married Jews and neither pressured them, so it's not common for me.
In the case of Spielberg, I'm only repeating what I read.
unblock
(52,331 posts)anti-semitism affects me, as a jew who doesn't keep kosher, doesn't keep shabbat, only goes to temple for weddings and bar mitzvahs, and doesn't believe in god just as much as a jew who does the opposite.
whether he's bothered by the anti-semitism of benedict donald and his fan club has nothing to do with his religiosity.
whathehell
(29,094 posts)some here apparently think, or perhaps did think, that it is relevant...I'm not necessarily one of them, but that IS alI I have to say on the matter, and I'm not interested in discussing it further.
EllieBC
(3,042 posts)We all have requirements for whom we marry. Would you marry a Teump supporter? No. Neither would I. I also wouldn't marry someone who didn't share my faith. It's not like she couldn't find some other rich guy to marry. It's not like Kushner was the last wealthy single man in Manhattan.
whathehell
(29,094 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 25, 2017, 08:32 PM - Edit history (1)
and I'd guess that, for most, certainly the more secular, liberal populace, the only "requirement" they have for marriage is love. I guess the pertinent question here is whether Jared, like you, actually has a "faith" or whether it's just a cultural, ethnic identification
If it's the first, his "requirement" for conversion, seems reasonable..If it's the second, it's a manifestation of cultural, ethnic bias, imo, and as such, is not.
EllieBC
(3,042 posts)You aren't permitted by Halacha to force someone Jewish to keep kosher, observe Shabbat, keep the laws of taharat hamishpacha, etc..
Being raised Modern Orthodox he likely keeps those things. So he couldn't marry her and keep those things still if she didn't convert. Those aren't cultural things. Those are heavy duty things.
And their kids attend an orthodox school so I'm guessing it's not cultural.
whathehell
(29,094 posts)if he actually IS religious, it seems reasonable....If not, it doesn't.
I am a secular jew. I don't keep kosher. I only go to synagogue on the high holy days.
For those of you who don't know what that means, people like me are the Jewish versions of Christians who only go to church on Christmas Eve and Easter.
And you are right. The people who chanted "Jews will not replace us" don't make the distinction between the observant and the secular.
And the fact that ANY jew is willing to work with Donald Trump despite his refusal to condemn Nazis is disgusting and history will judge them harshly.
spiderpig
(10,419 posts)(meaning we only officially went to church on Easter to wear new hats, or if somebody got married or died) I appreciate your clarification of non-observant Jews.
Is Judaism a blend of culture and religion? Do non-observers regard themselves as Jewish in terms of ethnicity, but decline to practice the traditional/reform rituals? It's always confused me. I should have research it more thoroughly by now, but I'm lazy.
BTW, my grandmother was a Sunday school teacher and church secretary. It did absolutely no good with me, but it was fun running around the choir loft and stocking the pews with hymnals when I was five.
nycbos
(6,039 posts)... "three Jews five opinions"
You are right though that some people view it as blend of culture and religion.
All of it means different things to different people.
unblock
(52,331 posts)nycbos
(6,039 posts)I love my bagels and lox.
spiderpig
(10,419 posts)I lived next door in Long Beach, and BB was my guilty pleasure. It's been over 20 years. Is it still there?
unblock
(52,331 posts)belief in jesus is the defining characteristic of a christian. regardless of ethnicity, how you were raised, whatever. if you belief in jesus, you're a christian; if you don't, you're not.
the hard part is recognizing that having a particular belief being the defining characteristic of a religion is a characteristic of christianity, not of all religions.
judaism is a religion of identity. it *has* a set of common beliefs, but no jew is required to belief any of it in particular. it *has* a set of common traditions and rituals and practices, but no jew is required to adhere to any of them in particular.
judaism is based instead on identification as jewish, and jews often show or mark that identity by participating in jewish rituals, practices, or sharing in those common beliefs.
some jews can be restrictive about accepting others as jewish, and may say, "i won't recognize you as jewish unless you prove to me you are jewish or convert". this "proof" is done by showing that you have a jewish mother, and a conversion is done by going through a bar mitzvah ritual (usually after up to a year of "training" but again, no particular belief is required.
this is why it's not at all a contradiction to have jewish atheists (such as myself), for instance; whereas, a christian atheist would make no sense.
whathehell
(29,094 posts)Italian Catholics too. Those two share a common religion, but their individual cultures -- traditionally, at least -- were very different.
unblock
(52,331 posts)Which seems bit of a different concept than an "ex-protestant"
whathehell
(29,094 posts)spiderpig
(10,419 posts)Things like traditional dietary prohibitions, which were no doubt based on practical instruction, as in "improperly prepared shellfish and pork can kill you, so don't eat it guys".
Behind the Aegis
(53,991 posts)...anti-Semitism isn't just plague of the right.
EllieBC
(3,042 posts)ecstatic
(32,733 posts)Or excusing it away with, "oh, he means well" or "he is too old to change or know any better" etc etc
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Bleacher Creature
(11,257 posts)I think he's also as narcissistic as Trump, in the sense that anything that helps them to "win" is worth it.
Whiskeytide
(4,463 posts)... and Jar Jar is in on it.
Miller and Bannon, though are true believers. That's why there has been conflict with them. JMHO.
enough
(13,262 posts)dembotoz
(16,844 posts)cilla4progress
(24,776 posts)and narcissism. He's as pathological as his FIL.
leftstreet
(36,116 posts)Kushner wouldn't think Trump's anti-semitism has anything to do with him. Trump surely means those 'other' not-exempt common people
gopiscrap
(23,765 posts)Doreen
(11,686 posts)I always wonder how he feels about sharing Ivanka with daddy?
gopiscrap
(23,765 posts)whathehell
(29,094 posts)I do hope it's not another smarmy inference of incest.
Sienna86
(2,150 posts)MLAA
(17,330 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,121 posts)If he is religious, the Jewish religion needs to ban his ass.
But I highly doubt he is, I bet you he isnt at all.
The Jewish people I know are nothing like this ass.
procon
(15,805 posts)Trump has always been a conman, but he is also a skilled performance artist. His philosophy is mutable and he changes his stance from day to day, and sometimes even by the hour. It doesn't matter if he's on camera yelling hateful tirades about anti-semitism, rascism or sexsm while embracing the KKK and Nazis, or gushing saccharine prose testifying his benevolent love and affection for all mankind. Its all a lie, every word he utters is a lie. Jared Kushner knows that, and so does Ivanka, and since they're both in on the ruse, they aren't offended in the least.
whathehell
(29,094 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)tableturner
(1,684 posts)Trump and crew know what they did, know that they are in the process of being fully exposed by Mueller, and know that the only thing that MAY keep them out of jail would be a violent revolt by his bigoted followers (although it won't).
still_one
(92,421 posts)policies
Behind the Aegis
(53,991 posts)Or the few ethnic minorities who proudly stand with him in statements or on stage or the women who gladly serve a self-professed "pussy grabber". Frankly, this is just another way for anti-Semitism to make itself known which is clearly on display with all of the "$$$$$" comments, because as we know, the only reason Jews do anything is for the money! The motivations of other minorities' continued support of this asshole aren't under scrutiny, only 'the Jew'! Of course, all those Jews who have loudly spoken out against him or spoken loudly in defense of minorities, well, we just don't count and mentioning it is akin to "bragging".
still_one
(92,421 posts)oasis
(49,410 posts)as a cover to draw in clients.
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,199 posts)Isn't that right, Jared?
onenote
(42,768 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)I don't think Hitler distinguished by how "religious" one was. Nor do I think other modern anti-Semites make that distinction between "religious" and "non-religious" Jews.
I would not use the words because I believe people, generally, conflate "religious" with recidivist. Recidivism is something peculiar to religious fundamentalists, generally. They believe that going back to some nostaligic age somehow makes them more "religious." I will go further and say that I find this recidivism offensive because I find it phony and self righteous. And too I think it's mischievous. When people believe they're holier than thou they tend to try to impose their religious beliefs on others.
Please don't interpret this as a criticism of you, personally. Disallowing recidivists their righteous indignation is more of a general cause.
HAB911
(8,916 posts)Cohen, Mnuchin, Jared, Ivanka will not replace us!
Cohen, Mnuchin, Jared, Ivanka will not replace us!
Cohen, Mnuchin, Jared, Ivanka will not replace us!
Who the fuck knows?
milestogo
(16,829 posts)pnwmom
(108,995 posts)who is a favorite of Putin.
So maybe he expects the same deal here.
http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/putin-on-our-side-says-russias-chief/
Putin on our side, says Russias chief rabbi
Russian chief rabbi Berel Lazar tells Limmud FSU that Putin has done more for Jews than any other leader of the country
April 28, 2017
Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)His religious practices are just part of the brand....
Eugene
(61,963 posts)This battle isn't one of them apparently.
kskiska
(27,047 posts)her father asked why Jared couldn't convert to her religion instead.
blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)Whatever religion they say they are money is their god