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BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 10:16 PM Aug 2017

All this discussion about "alt-left" and little about racism

Looking around the internet, it seems the most important issue coming out of Charlottesville is that a group of people who were no where near that protest decided the great violence talking place was not by Nazis, and it was not directed toward Jews or people of color, but against themselves. That violence was not perpetrated through clubs, fists or cars, but through the word "alt-left," a term Trump used in an effort to cast the protesters against fascism as extremists. Trump was not referring to them. They weren't protesting in Charlottesville. They don't even identify racism or the rise of fascism as central issues, but they rushed to declare the label an insult against them, perpetrated by "corporatist" Democrats.

Charlottesville demonstrated the rapid rise in White Supremacy and tacit approval of it out of the White House. Nazism is a movement that threatens the lives of entire races of people, people who have been increasingly subject to hate crimes since Trump's election. Friday night, a group of worshipers in a chapel were surrounded by a mob of Nazis, carrying torches and shouting racist chants. They were terrorized by White Supremacists, empowered by the election of Trump. I can only imagine that sense of terror reverberating across this country into the homes of people of color.

Yet what does it say about our political culture that focus has been diverted from the horror of Nazism and its impact on ethnic groups subject to terror toward a group of people who chose to make themselves the focus by declaring themselves the alt left? What does it say about our society that a group of relatively privileged Americans, safe from racial violence, have cast themselves as the victims of last weekend's events? What dos it say that once again in America the peoples subject to racial terror are those who matter the least?



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All this discussion about "alt-left" and little about racism (Original Post) BainsBane Aug 2017 OP
All I see (all over the internet) is discussion about racism leftstreet Aug 2017 #1
Really? BainsBane Aug 2017 #2
A couple of retweets of articles leftstreet Aug 2017 #3
certainly there are such IndieRick Aug 2017 #51
You have to be kidding. Nt B2G Aug 2017 #4
Alt-left bdamomma Aug 2017 #5
No BainsBane Aug 2017 #7
I guess the theme here is: threat on the right? Voltaire2 Aug 2017 #6
Me? BainsBane Aug 2017 #8
This has been a disturbing trend ZX86 Aug 2017 #10
Perhaps you can share BainsBane Aug 2017 #13
I have seen a number of threads about anti-Semitism in relation to the Nazi rally Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #9
The responses to this thread BainsBane Aug 2017 #11
Well hopefully you got what you were looking for. Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #12
This like many things since the election BainsBane Aug 2017 #15
This thread did all that? Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #18
No, it's part of a long, gradual process BainsBane Aug 2017 #28
I tend to think that we see what we are looking for... Caliman73 Aug 2017 #14
DU, Medium BainsBane Aug 2017 #16
And perhaps it's not the ratio so much BainsBane Aug 2017 #17
What is leftism to you? What should it be? Caliman73 Aug 2017 #19
I see it as based on principles of equality BainsBane Aug 2017 #20
Thank you. 1000000X melanctha Aug 2017 #30
And a belated welcome to DU! pat_k Aug 2017 #48
+1 betsuni Aug 2017 #33
Who refers to themselves as the "alt-left"? Lordquinton Aug 2017 #21
Look at all the threads in which BainsBane Aug 2017 #22
Who is describing themselves that way? Lordquinton Aug 2017 #37
Here are some links BainsBane Aug 2017 #40
Thanks for the links supporting my point Lordquinton Aug 2017 #44
You really worked hard to avoid the point BainsBane Aug 2017 #46
So you posted links without reading them? Lordquinton Aug 2017 #47
Hannity & Bannon started using that term a year ago. I don't know anyone who self-applies "alt-left" anneboleyn Aug 2017 #41
Thoughtful piece mcar Aug 2017 #23
"Alt-left" was a term invented to leverage race as a wedge issue to divide liberals. redgreenandblue Aug 2017 #24
Wow BainsBane Aug 2017 #26
FYI, Brock is Jewish BainsBane Aug 2017 #29
Brock was terrible in 2016 karynnj Aug 2017 #49
What did he do that was so terrible? BainsBane Aug 2017 #50
For one being a key person behind the efford to denigrate Sanders REAL civil rights actions in the karynnj Aug 2017 #52
Oh, so it was Brock who made Sanders supporters BainsBane Aug 2017 #54
Obviously I hit a nerve -- I SAID what Brock did, you spew out things that I NEVER said he did karynnj Aug 2017 #56
You did not "say" what Brock did BainsBane Aug 2017 #57
You resurrected the primary first ignoring what Brock did karynnj Aug 2017 #58
Brock is Jewish and gay. betsuni Aug 2017 #31
Yes, I get it's terribly divisive BainsBane Aug 2017 #34
You'd have a point if the things you describe were based on reality. redgreenandblue Aug 2017 #36
So why even respond to my post? BainsBane Aug 2017 #38
As for the 2016 primaries BainsBane Aug 2017 #39
I agree -- it was used by Hannity and others to discredit the left. The "alt-right" started calling anneboleyn Aug 2017 #42
Appears that the first usage of "Alt-left" came from WorldNetDaily, then FOX had sex with it. nt fleabiscuit Aug 2017 #43
Alt-left is a made up term Corgigal Aug 2017 #25
Thank you BainsBane Aug 2017 #27
The term "alt left" was made up by right wing trolls to keep us fighting with each other. Initech Aug 2017 #32
Fair point BainsBane Aug 2017 #35
Because the trap is a maze and easily gets one deep inside before they know it. nt fleabiscuit Aug 2017 #45
Why the indignation GaryCnf Aug 2017 #53
Right BainsBane Aug 2017 #55

leftstreet

(36,112 posts)
3. A couple of retweets of articles
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 10:24 PM
Aug 2017

I think a couple of magazines (the New Republic?) have current articles about retiring the term. Saw a discussion here on DU about the origin of the term

 

IndieRick

(53 posts)
51. certainly there are such
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 08:50 AM
Aug 2017

But the gist of the issue enumerated by that poster is the attempts , and they are all over the media, to subvert the discussion away from racism and towards the (mostly imaginary but unfortunately not all) violence committed by the left.

Voltaire2

(13,156 posts)
6. I guess the theme here is: threat on the right?
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 10:29 PM
Aug 2017

attack the left.

I personally think it is a stupid strategy, but who knows, it might work.

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
8. Me?
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 10:59 PM
Aug 2017

Attacking left? Is that what you call it when someone says this is not about the rise of fascism and targets of racial violence, not the feelings of people who claim to be the alt-left?





BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
13. Perhaps you can share
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 11:44 PM
Aug 2017

what you mean by left in the context of the discussion of Charlottesville?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
9. I have seen a number of threads about anti-Semitism in relation to the Nazi rally
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 11:21 PM
Aug 2017

I think I must have missed your participation in them, however.

I'm happy to provide links to them for you if you had some trouble finding them!

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
15. This like many things since the election
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 11:46 PM
Aug 2017

has shown me why Trump is President and how he reflects American culture at this particular moment in time.

Caliman73

(11,744 posts)
14. I tend to think that we see what we are looking for...
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 11:45 PM
Aug 2017

Not necessarily consciously, but when we are triggered emotionally, we tend to see things or look for things to confirm that emotional response.

Can you tell me where you are looking BainsBane? Are you talking about DU? The internet? Media in general? What sources?What is the ratio differential of stories about the "alt left" v racism?

I am curious about where you are drawing your conclusions from.

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
17. And perhaps it's not the ratio so much
Thu Aug 17, 2017, 11:48 PM
Aug 2017

As that I am continually aghast at what passes for leftism these days.

Caliman73

(11,744 posts)
19. What is leftism to you? What should it be?
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 12:29 AM
Aug 2017

Leftism, conservatism, liberalism, Progressivism, and all of the rest of the isms care usually very broad and often vague terms that people interpret based on their values and ideals. Obviously each has some core tenets but they are often stretched and quite often change over time.

What is it that you are seeing that does not fit into what you see as leftism?

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
20. I see it as based on principles of equality
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 01:17 AM
Aug 2017

economic, racial, gender. For me, leftism is oriented toward Marxism or other leftist ideologies like anarchism (Eg. Bakunin, Kroputkin). It advocates collective active in favor of a common good, not just for a chosen few but the majority. It seeks an end to poverty and inequality rather than working for the economic comfort of a limited section of the population at the expense of the subaltern. From each his ability to each according to his need.

What I have seen in recent years that is inconsistent with that is a movement of largely white middle and upper-middle class people resentful that a tiny portion of the population has more, on one hand, and that political parties do not center their demands for greater comfort and power over the rights and survival of the majority. I see people who by most measures are wealthy claim to constitute the working class. I see sections of the white bourgeoisie using tropes like the 99% as cover for hostility to the poorest and most marginalized Americans. I've seen people born into comfort, who have more than 80% of Americans and 99.99% of the world's population, insult people without a fraction of their income as "corporatist." I've seen people declare African Americans as an entire race "establishment." I've seen middle class people who claim to be leftist, too principled to vote for Clinton, insist that food stamps were enough for the poor. I've seen self-proclaimed leftists argue that tuition-free higher education for the upper-middle class is more important than addressing chronic and crippling inequality in K-12 that cements generations of poverty. I see people more attached to the word leftist than any principle. I see solidarity and collective action eschewed in favor of political factionalism. I've seen the world divided between good and evil, left and centrist, based no on ideas or issues but support for one politician's aspirations. And now I see people who have decided that White Supremacist attacks of Jews and people of color are dwarfed by their own outrage at a term alt-left that they voluntarily and eagerly claimed for themselves.

I've also seen people who for years have fallen on the conservative end of discussions of race, gender, and poverty declare themselves to "leftist" to lower themselves to vote for the Democratic nominee. I've seen people who insist they are THE progressives make excuses for fascism and repeatedly defend Trump. I've seen people insist that rolling back equal rights was necessary to achieve "equality." In that and similar situations, I've seen "equality" invoked to promote the economic interests of a minority of the population, a demographic whose incomes already are well in excess of the national median.

What I haven't seen is any proposal or concern, other than lip service, to address inequality.
Rhetoric about financial capital is accompanied by justifications and support for gun corporations and massive defense spending, demonstrating there is no intent to challenge capital at all. Rather than challenging capitalism, I see efforts to return the white male bourgeoisie back to what it sees as is rightful place atop the world capitalist order.


BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
22. Look at all the threads in which
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 08:26 AM
Aug 2017

People are complaining about the tern being used against them, despite their bring n where near Charlottesville. Go open one, any of them.

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
46. You really worked hard to avoid the point
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 04:36 PM
Aug 2017

I don't use the term, period. I described reaction to Trump's use of the term and the eagerness of a group of people to proclaim themselves martyrs to this particular turn of phase.

And what was this insightful point you made? You asked who referred to themselves as "alt-left." I pointed to links showing exactly the sort of eagerness of people to claim themselves victims of the term, to claim it applied to them. That was my point, and the links demonstrate exactly that.

Now, I don't use the term at all. I don't do so because the sort of people so eager to insist it applies to them are neither alt nor left. As I discuss in more detail here:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029481258#post20

Trump, of course, used the term quite differently from how it's been adopted by those anxious to proclaim themselves victims of such linguistic violence, which is part of the paradox I observed in my OP.

And here you are, outraged that you think I called someone alt left, when I did no such thing. In fact, I argued that there is no such thing. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029474486
And that after claiming that absolutely no one had taken the term as a personal offense against themselves, only to leave a post suggesting that you too find the term offensive.


Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
47. So you posted links without reading them?
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 04:54 PM
Aug 2017

Cause those links said to not use the term, and you are more concerned about attacking anyone who objects, rather than accepting and agreeing that it's a slur and not to use it. Unless you're peddling guilty in defense

Reading you're own op here:


Yet what does it say about our political culture that focus has been diverted from the horror of Nazism and its impact on ethnic groups subject to terror toward a group of people who chose to make themselves the focus by declaring themselves the alt left?


You're making an unsupported accusation. Please stop using a right wing slur.

anneboleyn

(5,611 posts)
41. Hannity & Bannon started using that term a year ago. I don't know anyone who self-applies "alt-left"
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 01:18 PM
Aug 2017

It is a well-known negative description used hysterically by Hannity and Bannon and their minions to discredit the left. I don't know anyone on the left who calls themselves "alt-left" or worries about Hannity calling them "alt-left." That would be a supreme waste of time imho.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
24. "Alt-left" was a term invented to leverage race as a wedge issue to divide liberals.
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 08:42 AM
Aug 2017

It was part of a dishonest (and at times borderline anti-semitic) smear campaign towards Bernie Sanders concocted by David Brook and it backfired big-time, contributing to the loss against Trump.

The surest way to keep the division alive and lose the next election is to keep posting stuff like the OP.

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
26. Wow
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 09:46 AM
Aug 2017

That's quite the interpretation.

Any thoughts about the events in Charlottesville and the rise of fascism?

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
29. FYI, Brock is Jewish
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 09:53 AM
Aug 2017

It is interesting that his name has often topped Kremlin troll talking points, according to securingdemocracy's Hamilton 68 dashboard. http://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
49. Brock was terrible in 2016
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 07:52 AM
Aug 2017

It does not matter that he is no longer rw. It does not matter that he is gay and Jewish. It matters that he used the same skill .. and methods .. to attack the opponent of the Democrat he supported.

His actions against the Clintons in the 1990s were unconscionable and his book is an apology for that. Yet, in 2016 he used the same type of smears, and accusations taken out of context that were the heart of what he did in the 1990s.

He is not a good person just because he was on your side in the primaries.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
52. For one being a key person behind the efford to denigrate Sanders REAL civil rights actions in the
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 09:57 AM
Aug 2017

1960s questioning that it happened.

Note that I am not saying that the year he took off from the University of Chicago when he actively worked on issues like desegretating the Chicago public schools meant that he deserved the black vote more than Clinton -- nor am I saying that Sanders, in his very early 20s, was a leader in this. I am saying he was very much there. Chicago, while not the deep south, was not an easy place to fight segregation with its strong ethnic neighborhoods. Not to mention, remember Mayor Daley!

To me, at its heart, this was designed to attack a REAL credible part of Sanders resume. Like Kerry's war record, it was something from his youth. In retrospect, from the moment Sanders declared, there was a HUGE effort to discredit him with POC. I was shocked that there was a pervasive negative story line that he should not have announced in Burlington, Vermont, because it is not sufficiently diverse. This ignores that it was where he lives, where he was an excellent mayor, and a place with a gorgeous waterside park that he enabled as mayor (rather than allowing it to become condos).

It ignored that near the end of his time as mayor, Burlington became a refugee resettlement center. It is commonplace in our supposedly "non diverse" city to find first grade classes that look like they could be a poster for a UN school. You see Nepalese and Somali people in traditional garb. The newest city council member, from the most "conservative" part of Burlington is a "new American" from Mauritania.

I live in Burlington and I KNOW the anger among Democrats and progressives here that to DEFINE Sanders as not very good for POC that our city and state - among the bluest, most tolerant places in the country - were smeared. I personally do not get why Clinton allies like Brock decided this was needed. Hillary and Bill Clinton were strong favorites for POC who had long supported them because of good things they had done. I absolutely do not get why they thought an attack on Sanders genuine civil rights credientials was needed.

Links - Brock attacked Sanders wonderful ad using the Simon and Garfunkle song, "America" - https://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/01/21/david-brock-ally-of-hillary-clinton-skewers-new-bernie-sanders-ad/ - easily one of the best campaign ads I have seen in decades.

Here is a Common Dreams link, that outlines the coordinated attacks on Sanders on civil rights. I often have problems with CD, but though you may disagree with more subjective stuff, it does accurately describe many things that undeniably happened. https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/02/24/clinton-campaign-relies-rumors-and-dishonesty-attack-sanders

I realize that this borders on relitigating the primaries, however my goal here is to argue that to win elections, we DO NEED TO USE REPUBLICAN TACTICS OF CHARACTER ASSISINATION - like Brock did. Like the SBVT, Brock existed OUTSIDE HRC's campain - providing distance. I would love to believe that she was personally against that sad chapter of the primaries. If you have anything she publicly said that either acknowledged Sanders real civil rights work or indicated that she was unhappy with where Brock and others went, I would love to read it because NOT seeing it seriously bothered me in 2016.

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
54. Oh, so it was Brock who made Sanders supporters
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 12:18 PM
Aug 2017

on Du and all over the internet go ape shit because Black Lives Matter dared to interrupt Bernie at Netroots? It was Brock who made them claim Black Lives Matter was funded by George Soros? It was Brock who make posters here insist daring to even ask about what Sanders would do for race issues was tantamount to the Southern Strategy? It was Brock who made Sanders supporters condescend and insult African American activists on Twitter, telling them that the fact Bernie had appeared in a protest forty years ago was all that mattered and that they had no right to criticize him?

And when we warned you back then that what you were doing was devastating to Sanders campaign, when black Sanders supporters warned you all, you all doubled down. And that incredibly obtuse reaction to concerns by the single most loyal Democratic voting block was not the fault of those who engaged in it. It was all David Brock's fault. Common Dreams says so, and Kremlin-funded, Putin-apologist propaganda sites are always right.

Cry me a fucking river. That was all self-inflicted. I saw it it real time. I saw people warn Sanders supporters in real time. And I saw those supporters react with absolute contempt not only toward the concerns of black voters but women voters as well. We were told that wanting to hear a candidate speak about abortion rights was "weak." Black voters were told similar things.

But it wasn't the fault of the people who actually did everything in their power to alienate support for their candidate. It was David Brock. The Kremlin says so, therefore it must be true.

But David Brock ignored Bernie's superiority! He failed to create ads highlighting how Bernie was a civil rights champion, how Burlington became a heaven for refugees. Bernie spent the great majority of his $225 million fund raising haul of corporate TV ads, but it was Brock's responsibility to highlight--rather than "ignore"--Bernie's heroic background as savior of the black and brown.

I live in Burlington and I KNOW the anger among Democrats and progressives here that to DEFINE Sanders as not very good for POC that our city and state - among the bluest, most tolerant places in the country - were smeared


You live in Burlington, a city in the whitest state of America, and you know that progressives were angry that they were expected to lower themselves to address concerns of voters about civil rights. Yes, exactly. Why someone running for office be expected to speak to the concerns of voters--of large demographic constituencies? VT is so tolerant, it has the lowest non-white population in the country. I wonder what became of all those refugees by the 2010 census? https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-02-10-vermont-census_N.htm

So what if Progressive VT dumps its toxic waste in a poor brown community in Texas.
In 1998, the House of Representatives approved a compact struck between Texas, Vermont and Maine that would allow Vermont and Maine to dump low-level nuclear waste at a designated site in Sierra Blanca, Texas. Sanders, at the time representing Vermont in the House, cosponsored the bill and actively ushered it through Congress. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/sep/22/fact-checking-viral-graphic-critical-bernie-sander/

So what if Sanders refused to speak to the residents of Sierra Blanca when they came to DC, and so what if, as his Senate financial disclosure reports reveal, he continues to profit from it? Progressive toxic waste dumped on brown communities is so much better than when it comes from non-progressives. Residents of Sierra Blanca should take pride knowing that their children's lives are compromised for true "progressives."

So what if he voted for the Minute Men, voted against ever immigration reform bill from the time he entered congress until shortly before running for President? http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/sep/22/fact-checking-viral-graphic-critical-bernie-sander/
So what if he voted for the very same crime bill he used to attack Clinton? What does a voting record matter compared to a photo from 40 years ago?

And if Brock was so nefarious, how is it that NONE of the mountains of opp research that Kurt Eichenwald talked about seeing ended up being used? How come there was so little mention of Sierra Blanca or Sanders historic level of campaign finance violations? How come Old Towne got scant attention on a few blogs rather than a thorough investigation? How is it that we still haven't seen a single press story on Islands Family Trust?

Meanwhile, to this day, people who refused to vote for Clinton justify their decision by pointing to false claims about campaign finance that Sanders made a centerpiece of his own campaign, claims that relied on and reinforced the electorate's ignorance of campaign finance law. They repeat Bernie's claims about the primary being "rigged." Their response to the rise of fascism is to repeat those false claims as justification for their failing to stand up to fascism in the Nov. election. Now, I understand a little thing like a White Supremacist regime in the White House can't compare to the outrage you feel that someone dared to criticize Bernie. You'll just have to soldier under the burden of oppression by all those black and brown voters who failed to realize that Bernie was their savior, superior to the John Lewises and Dolores Huertas, insulted by Sanders supporters, who bear the physical scars of violent racism from fighting on the front lines of civil rights.

Your argument reveals an appalling double standard. You think nothing of denouncing any criticism of Sanders, while showing absolutely no concern about the torrent of character assassination launched toward Clinton. Your argument that any criticism of Sanders on civil rights was nefarious and illegitimate and your invocation of Burlington as a shining example tells me that you think white "progressives' are better fit to form judgments on civil rights matters than civil rights activists or voters of color. Additionally, your insistence that Brock was responsible for events all of saw unfold in real time shows not only a refusal to take responsibility for the shortcomings of that campaign and its supporters but a determination to continue to double down on the same mistakes that doomed it. Not only do you deflect responsibility for the truly offensive barge of insults and attacks against BLM and other civil rights activists by Sanders supporters, your post echoes some of the sentiment that underlay it. It was arguments like that that led black folks on twitter to start the #Berniesoblack hash tag. Now, you choose to not to learn from that experience. You prefer to double down on it, to show that the appalling sense of entitlement that led people to behave in such ways in 2015 remains undaunted. Since I want you to fail, since I abhor the class and race entitlement that underlies the restorationist agenda, I think it's good you keep revealing the soul of your movement for all to see.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
56. Obviously I hit a nerve -- I SAID what Brock did, you spew out things that I NEVER said he did
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 03:00 PM
Aug 2017

Of course, the right wing engaged in character assination of Clinton -- as they had for decades. That does NOT make it ok for Brock to do the same thing to Sanders.

PS yes I DO think that Burlington is a shining example. Have you ever been to Burlington? As to Sierra Blanca, you could find that the vast majority of the waste is from Texas and that the geology of Maine and Vermont is such that it had to be sent out of the state. Not to mention, Vermont Yankee, the only nuclear plant in the state (close to the NH/MA border with Vermont) closed over a year ago.

PS I thought Sanders (and Clinton) were both flawed candidates. I seriously never thought that Sanders would do significantly better than Kuchinich did as he was easily framed as a socialist. In fact, that Bernie did so well in the primary was troubling to me as a reflection on how weak Clinton actually was.

Many many Bernie supporters worked extremely hard to get votes for Clinton -- and they pulled in many who otherwise would not have voted for her. There were buses of Bernie people who went to NH -- and they used their info from the primaries to get people who supported Bernie then to vote for HRC. Remember that NH has an open primary. Many of those people were independents - thus not 100% likely to vote for the Democrat in the general election.

As to learning from experience, I suggest that you begin to do so yourself. I voted for Clinton - as did EVERYONE in my large extended family, including my parent, 8 siblings and their spouses, and close to 20 adult kids in the next generation. Many volunteered.

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
57. You did not "say" what Brock did
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 05:45 PM
Aug 2017

You expressed outrage that Sanders was challenged on his civil rights record, and you falsely attributed that to Brock. I know the attribution is false because I saw the events unfold in real time and remember them quite clearly. You spoke of the outrage of Vermonters having to lower themselves to tolerate voters of color daring to ask about what presidential candidates would do regarding their rights, their lives. That is what you faulted Brock for. You clearly believe that Sanders should not have been questioned by voters, that he should have faced no criticism and his voting record gone unexamined. You blamed Brock because you refuse to acknowledge that it was Sanders supporters who made his candidacy toxic among many people of color. I can count at least a half dozen black DUers who had supported Sanders until that point. That had f all to do with Brock.

Yes, I know VT doesn't have a toxic waste dump. They put it in a poor brown community in Texas. That's what Sierra Blanca is. That is what affluent white communities do when they don't want to suffer the consequences of their own consumption. They inflict that on the poor, on communities of color. They do so because they treat, and therefore view, the lives of the people in those communities as worth less than their own. And that is the great civil rights record you insist not be questioned, that Sanders supporters insisted made him him more heroic than John Lewis or Dolores Huerta, whom they insulted and attacked.

No, I have not been to VT. I'm sure it's nice. Wealth and privilege buys a great deal. It buys a life free of toxic waste dumps. Yet somehow it didn't buy a successful single payer program. Not that Bernie would know about that. He's not the governor of VT. He's only paid by the state's residents to represent it.

I know many Bernie supporters worked to get Clinton elected. I live in a community that went overwhelmingly for Bernie, partly because at that point my state used a caucus system for presidential preference that kept turnout low, more affluent, and white. My precinct went 3:1 for Bernie, and many of the people I canvassed with during the GE had voted for Bernie. I have absolutely no problem with people having supported Bernie or anyone else in the primary. I've supported losing primary candidates my entire life. That's the way it goes. People deal and move on. At least they did until 2016.

I raised the point because YOU resurrected the primary. You insisted there was something untoward about questioning your preferred candidate's civil rights record. I pointed out that not only was that not character assassination, it paled in comparison to the character assassination that Clinton was subject to, most of it lies. I raised the issue because it gets at what I see as the core issue in all of this: double-standards that are part and parcel of a politics of entitlement.

What bothers me is 1) your pointing to Kremlin propaganda as evidence--when that shit put fascists in the White House; 2) your attitude that any criticism of Bernie on civil rights amounted to character assassination; 3) the blatant double standards present in all of that. 4) and the rather appalling way in which you point to the whitest state in America as evidence of some sort of civil rights nirvana, only to then turn around and justify lethal, environmental racism.

And since, you say, you voted for Clinton, why can't you leave the primary in the fucking past? Why do you have to point to Kremlin propaganda to prop up a mendacious account of what transpired regarding Sanders and civil rights? You're the one who came into this thread and decided to revisit that fucking primary. Never in history have a group of people whined so much about losing a goddamn primary. And as your post demonstrates, they blame everyone but themselves for that loss.

You are the one who chose to make this discussion about the primary, who decided that David Brock was reprehensible for some sort of involvement, that you don't specify, in suggesting that Sanders might not be perfection itself. You are the one who insisted that the fact Sanders received any criticism amounted to character assassination. It is that kind of determination that the candidates not be held to common standards, that some should be savaged while others never questioned, that bothers me. It betrays a worldview premised on inequality, that all people are not worthy of equal treatment. That very view is also evident in the creation and continuing justification of toxic sites like Sierra Blanca. People can only do that when they are certain their lives are more valuable than those of the poor and the brown, just as they are certain Sanders and his supporters are intrinsically superior to Clinton and those who voted for her. It is that view which is at the very heart of the movement that continues to surround Sanders to this day, which is why we see the emphasis on dividing the world between us and them, "progressives" vs. the "establishment" and "neoliberals" rather than building coalitions around key issues.

I don't know what you think I'm supposed to learn about past mistakes. I'm going to guess it relates to the same shit I've heard before before--from MRAs, Stein voters, and the like--that I better vote as a certain faction demands in the future if I don't want the GOP to win. My response to them has been that they can fuck themselves with a Tiki torch. They have every right to vote for whomever they want in primaries and general elections, as do I. The winner is then determined by who gets the most votes. If it's their choice, so be it. If it's mine, so be it. If our choices should happen to be the same, so be it. But their rights do not extend to controlling my vote, and there is nothing they can say or do that will convince me to surrender my constitutional rights to their privilege.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
58. You resurrected the primary first ignoring what Brock did
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 07:46 PM
Aug 2017

Brock is the same Brock he was in the 1990s, but he has changed who he is for. Me, I do not think that is appropriate.

By the way, Vermont is not a wealthy state. It is, in fact slightly over the average for the entire US, ranking number 20. If I am correct, you are from Washington State - which is wealthier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
34. Yes, I get it's terribly divisive
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 10:24 AM
Aug 2017

to suggest that what might really matter most in relation to the events in Charlottesville are the lives of those subject to White Supremacist terror. Here I am, being all divisive by suggesting that black and Jewish lives might actually matter more than the bruised feelings of people who have chosen to yet again make themselves the center of discussion of events in which they were not involved.

I don't think you'll find much success in promoting your version of unity, which strikes me as subjugation to privilege. There will never come a time in which I decide that the feelings of a few, like those who decide to proclaim themselves martyrs to the term "alt-left," matter more than the victims of hate crimes. I want a party that stands for equality social, and economic justice, not one that caters to the egos of a self-entitled few.

Additionally, I find demands for unity particularly unconvincing when it comes from those whose entire political lexicon is comprised of insults toward Democrats, particularly those less affluent and privileged than themselves.

Not that I'll use the term alt-left. I deplore it, largely because it is so often used to describe people who are neither alt nor left.



redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
36. You'd have a point if the things you describe were based on reality.
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 11:36 AM
Aug 2017

What I see is a bunch of cheap stereotypes about liberals, some of which could come straight from fox news, mixed in with tons of straw men and broad brush accusations with no evidence whatsoever presented to back them up.

You can only beat a dead horse so many times. Eventually there comes a time to get over the 2016 primaries...

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
38. So why even respond to my post?
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 12:47 PM
Aug 2017

Why declare it an offense against you if nothing I have said is true? Why even imagine that anything I said related to you in anyway?

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
39. As for the 2016 primaries
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 01:08 PM
Aug 2017

It was you who declare David Brock, a Democratic, responsible for YOUR oppression through the use of the term alt-left. I have no idea if Brock used the term. I do know that your accusation of Brock--himself--a Jew being antisemitic is an obvious crux. Brock is a Democrat. He backed Clinton in the primary, and that you continue to invoke him show that you are the determined to whine incessantly about the great lost cause that you have taken as the entirety of your political identity.

You're full of didn't mention the primary. I mentioned racism and the rise of fascism. I pointed out that I consider those serious issues more important than your manufactured outrage over a term alt-left that you eagerly claim for yourself.

I'm not aware of Fox News raising concern about bourgeois entitlement. You'll have to direct me to that particular coverage. I wasn't aware they had developed a sudden concern about white bourgeois class dominance. Truthfully, I don't think you give a lot of thought to the ad hominems you lob, whether Fox News, or the "antisemetic" Jew David Brock. Looks to me you pull them out without regard to content, in order to cover up for the fact you can't mount a substantive argument.

And really. Can't you get your labels straight? You can't be both a liberal and a leftist. The two are are in in direct opposition to each other. One cross at a time, please.

anneboleyn

(5,611 posts)
42. I agree -- it was used by Hannity and others to discredit the left. The "alt-right" started calling
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 01:21 PM
Aug 2017

themselves by that name -- the term "alt-left" was used to divide and degrade the left. Nobody on the left should be using or worrying about the term.

Corgigal

(9,291 posts)
25. Alt-left is a made up term
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 08:48 AM
Aug 2017

Used by racist who think running humans over with cars is OK. It's a false equivalence and anyone who uses the term , says racist. They are trying to change the narrative because they suck as humans.

Racism is all this is about. I'm happy the rug was pulled and it's out in the open.

BainsBane

(53,066 posts)
27. Thank you
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 09:47 AM
Aug 2017

While I'm not certain of the origins of the term, that is certainly how Trump is using it.

Initech

(100,102 posts)
32. The term "alt left" was made up by right wing trolls to keep us fighting with each other.
Fri Aug 18, 2017, 10:13 AM
Aug 2017

While the white supremacists continue to get away with murder. It's a distraction. We can't let them get to us!

 

GaryCnf

(1,399 posts)
53. Why the indignation
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 10:05 AM
Aug 2017

Over the acknowledgment that the alt-left and people of color were arm in arm on the streets of Charlottesville STANDING FACE TO FACE against an enemy?

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