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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBREAKING - Protesters in Durham topple confederate monument downtown
A group of protesters in Durham, N.C. pulled down a Confederate statue outside a government building on Monday evening.
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The statue, called the Confederate Soldiers Monument, was dedicated to the city in 1924 and stands outside a government building that houses offices such as the county manager and the county attorney. It depicts a soldier along with the words In memory of the boys who wore the gray, in reference to the color of the Confederate forces during the Civil War. The monument also features a seal engraved with The Confederate States of America.
The action took place just two days after violence erupted in Charlottesville, Va. when protesters clashed with white nationalists rallying against the removal of another Confederate statue.
The group in Durham gathered outside the old Durham County courthouse, according to local CBS-affiliate WNCN. A woman used a ladder to climb up the statue around 7 p.m. and tied a rope to it. Others then pulled the rope, toppling the statue to the ground.
http://time.com/4900779/durham-north-carolina-confederate-statue-pulled-down-protesters/
http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/local/protesters-pull-down-confederate-statue-at-old-durham-co-courthouse/464389862
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Bladewire
(381 posts)dalton99a
(81,570 posts)Bladewire
(381 posts)Why not?
Iggo
(47,565 posts)We will not be divided
mountain grammy
(26,648 posts)Petrushka
(3,709 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)Most of these statues weren't that. This one appeared to be a legit war dead memorial at a courthouse.
Bladewire
(381 posts)Serious question
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)Bladewire
(381 posts)That's why I ask you if Russia is worse for equality, freedom of speech etc.
Is Russia worse than America in giving equality to citizens?
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)Ok. Interesting reaction to a poster.
Bladewire
(381 posts)Democratic underground is for us to become stronger together
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)And your hidden post in that thread was highly bigoted.
Bladewire
(381 posts)Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)Bladewire
(381 posts)We are united against Putin
Hekate
(90,793 posts)Thank you
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)I just don't see the merit in taking down a generic war dead monument. I understand taking down homages to Lee and other traitors, but generic war dead monuments are common at courthouses across the country.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)since he was a memorial to the ordinary soldier, who often didn't have an awful lot of say whether he got shoved into a uniform and handed a gun.
I lived a block away from his counterpart in Jamaica Plain, a part of Boston.
But yeah, the traitors have got to go.
Bladewire
(381 posts)The title of your post is about Russia, and your post has nothing at all to do with Russia, you don't mention Russia at all. Deceptive.
The statue is not a "generic war dead monument" and you're characterizing anti fascists as random rebels taking down "generic war dead monuments".
It's odd an honest person would trivialize both a monument, and the taking down of a war monument, in America as "generic".
Democrats will not be divided
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)Enjoy your stay...while it lasts.
In the meantime, welcome to ignore.
Hekate
(90,793 posts)Serious observation
Bladewire
(381 posts)I'm not into throwing shade and your negativity is wasted on me.
Democrats will not be divided
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)We can talk about suitable replacement memorials as an integrated country.
Bladewire
(381 posts)Tough times ahead. We will not be divided
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)With additional monuments for WW1, WW2, and often later wars. Should they all come down?
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)If not, I don't see how they pertain to this thread about Civil War memorials.
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)Usually just listing the number who died in that country/town or generically remembering the fallen. I've seen many, both in the South and the North.
It's one thing to bring down statues with Southern "Lost Cause" BS idols like Lee, it's another to go after any memorial of the war. Even Germany has memorials to the fallen of WWII sans idolatry of Nazi or symbols of it.
MichMan
(11,971 posts)Your post #10 stating "Anything that went up in a segregated US needs to come down" doesn't mention anything about Civil War memorials.
I assume you are referring to every single building including homes and public structures. I don't support tearing down every single building in the entire South
eShirl
(18,503 posts)leftstreet
(36,112 posts)(snip)
Theyre not just memorials to the fallen: Helenas Confederate memorial was constructed more than 50 years after the end of the Civil War. Most of its counterparts also came decades, not years, after the war. Historians say that time lag reflects white Southerners focus not so much on remembering the dead as providing a justification for rolling back black civil rights, which had advanced during post-Civil War Reconstruction.
This historical revisionism in support of a system of segregation known as Jim Crow was not restricted to the South; it stretched across a nation more concerned with national unity in the face of foreign threats than with black rights.
Theyre still cropping up: The establishment of Confederate monuments, which crested between 1900 and 1930 and again during the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, didnt end with the 20th century.
Their numbers actually have been increasing. One, dedicated in Mitchell County in 2011, commemorates 79 men who died for their freedom and independence. And not for slavery.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/05/22/confederate-monuments-new-orleans-charlottesville-removal-race-civil-war/101870418/
Heritage and history, my ass
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)I thought this was an effort to go after the statues that stand in parks and clearly idolize a traitorous general or political leader of the South to prop up the infamous "Lost Cause" bullshit story. I think going after the other more generic memorials may be upset the average person and cause the movement to point out the evil cause of the Confederacy much harm.
Think of it this way, Even Germany has memorials to fallen soldiers of WWII. They are devoid of Nazi imagery or statues of leaders of the Third Reich.
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)Barack_America
(28,876 posts)And whether any of them represent how we, as an integrated country, wish to remember slavery and the Civil War.
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)---The Confederate Memorial was ""...unveiled before a large crowd of northerners and southerners on June 4, 1914, the 106th anniversary of the birthday of the president of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis. President Woodrow Wilson delivered an address and veterans of both the Union and Confederacy placed wreaths on the graves of their former foes, symbolizing the reconciliation between the North and South, the memorial's central theme."
(emphasis added)
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/Explore/Monuments-and-Memorials/Confederate-Memorial
Edited to add:
I wonder how many war veterans---of any war anywhere---took part in the toppling of that statue in Durham NC.
Hekate
(90,793 posts)Black soldiers came home from fighting WWI in Europe and I guess needed to be reminded of their "place."
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Make it in to something useful.
Grassy Knoll
(10,118 posts)Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)a memorial to those dead does not belong anywhere associated with a US state or federal government property.
Never did. Never will.
It's hard to believe these monuments to evil have not all been toppled long before now.
And I have ancestors who were "boys who wore the gray.
Bladewire
(381 posts)Growing up I was never taught what these racist monuments represented.. NEVER
Now I see
https://s.yimg.com/iu/api/res/1.2/u1nJqWodwdW9qzelGfIFag--~C/cm90YXRlPWF1dG87dz05NjA7YXBwaWQ9eXZpZGVv/
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)Not that hard to figure it out.
Bladewire
(381 posts)The plaques on the statues don't tell the whole story. How did you learn the full story if their racist roots?
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)Right-wing Nut Job conservative pundits will say.
Brother Buzz
(36,463 posts)Like when Mother Nature exacted revenge against Agassiz in the San Francisco 1906 earthquake. Wicked cool sense of humor, she has. Still, a job well done.
hunter
(38,326 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Agassiz
Agassiz was both a creationist and a racist, a white man of his times.
freddyvh
(276 posts)i agree these need to be gone.
but this is vandalism
this will give the wing nuts fuel to their fire.
if these need to be gone (and to make it clear....they should be)...use the system in place. Let the local government get them down
You know that faux, breitbart and the other wing nut "news" will use this to stoke the fires of hatred of the right
shanny
(6,709 posts)The gerrymandered state legislature passed a law (last year iirc) prohibiting it. This in a town that voted overwhelmingly for Clinton.
And who the eff cares what faux, breitbart et al object to? There will always be something, even a Democratic president wearing a tan suit. Enough.
freddyvh
(276 posts)why should the nazis and white nationalists?
shanny
(6,709 posts)They lie, flout laws and cheat 6 ways from Sunday, but we're supposed to be nice, and bipartisan-y, and work with them within the system.
It is past time for some highly visible pushback. And do note, property was damaged, not bodies. I'll take it.
Ms. Toad
(34,087 posts)Pushback does not require violence or destruction of property.
shanny
(6,709 posts)But in case you haven't noticed, our system is (almost?) hopelessly corrupt now, the rich and powerful get away with everything now, their brain-washed allies flout our laws now and we do almost nothing to stop it, except maybe vote every 4 years. And now they are working hard to prevent even that.
This war is almost lost, and there are people here and elsewhere who think we should only resist in such a way that doesn't offend anybody, and stays within the norms of a civilization that doesn't exist anymore.
Violence? No. No way. Property damage? Whose property? The citizens of Durham who wanted that statue taken down, but couldn't do it because the racist, gerrymandered state legislature forbade it? Our opponents destroy bodies and lives, they even take lives. Who holds the moral high ground here?
Ms. Toad
(34,087 posts)If true (I can't find any support for that assertion in the form of a publicly reported vote, or city referendum), but if true the city council (or citizens) should challenge the law.
The city can take action, remove the statue formally, and see what the state does in response, or it (or a citizen's group backed by a citizen or council vote to take it down) can challenge the state law in court.
What I see in the videos is a crowd that - for all I know - represents only the portion of the city of Durham that is actually present on site. I don't see anyone taking the moral high ground - i.e. taking steps like I described above.
shanny
(6,709 posts)Is that the statue is down, nobody seems too upset about it, and Clinton picked up 79% of Durham county.
I also assume that for many it hasn't been a real big deal...but now it is, for very obvious reasons.
You can draw different conclusions, and arrive at different moral judgments; that is your right. I will say this though: what is legal is not always the same as what is morally right. We Americans fought a mighty big war over a horrifically immoral law, the same war this statue commemorated. Ostensibly the moral side won but sadly the battle has continued to this day, under the cover of "heritage" and culture. It is past time to confront the BS, and bury the lies, along with these statues.
Ms. Toad
(34,087 posts)If not, all you know is that the people involved want it down.
As to what is legal not being the same as what is morally right, you are correct. I have a relativley long history of being engaged in civil disobedience - but each time I engaged in such a venture it was after considerable deliberation as to what the options were to express my concern that the law and morality did not coincide, conveying that message was part of the preamble to the act of civil disobedience - and part of the act itself. I have tried the legal avenues to act in a moral fashion, and they have failed. What is left is illegal. It was always done with the weight that a necessary violation of the law requires. Any act of civil disobedience that involved destroying public or private property would be extremely rare - and only to prevent further more significant harm to others. (E.g. I could conceive of it being a proper action if there were a way to render the nuclear button inactive, or the bombs themselves.)
This was a mob pulling down a statue. This particular statue seems to have been a memorial to war dead. Regardless of whether you believe they were on the right side - the individuals for whom this served as a memorial were real humans who had - and perhaps still have - family members a generation or two out who grieve their loss. That is different from a monument honoring/celebrating someone who played a role in planning and carrying out the civil war. This is not, from any report I have seen, the Charlottesville statute.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't ultimately be taken down - but there are number of more productive steps possible before reverting to destroying it. (As noted by people who live there - the destruction of this statue likely significantly delayed any efforts to repeal the misguided state law - part of the consideration that ought to have gone into any act of civil disobedience prior to carrying it out.)
shanny
(6,709 posts)"Legal" does not equal "moral," and "majority opinion" does not equal "moral."
Whatever reason was used, and whatever the time frame that these statues were put up, they have come to represent the continued oppression of black people, and glorification of those who fought to keep them enslaved.
They need to be removed and now is better than later.
MichMan
(11,971 posts)shanny
(6,709 posts)struggle4progress
(118,337 posts)monument sentiments became more widespread
shanny
(6,709 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)freddyvh
(276 posts)i see no difference between this and vandalizing any other government property
grantcart
(53,061 posts)The NC state legislature isn't interested in government property or local support for local institutions
They have made an aggressive campaign at instituting a racist politic on minorities in NC.
It is so egregious that the Supreme Court regularly finds them racist, how racist, it was a unanimous Supreme Court decision:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article154384454.html
RALEIGH
The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday affirmed a lower court ruling that found 28 North Carolina legislative districts to be illegal racial gerrymanders that diluted the overall impact of black voters.
But the justices did not agree with the panel of three federal judges who decided that new maps should be drawn and special elections should be held in 2017 to correct the district lines approved by the Republican-led General Assembly in 2011.
The Supreme Court order states the panel had not provided a strong enough basis for why it took the extraordinary step of calling for special elections this year. The order sends the case back to the lower court for reconsideration.
After 170 years of continued intimidation and humiliation African American employees should have to continue to walk past the shadow of iconography to racism exactly how many more decades?
Expecting Rain
(811 posts)This is nothing but fuel for the right-wing nuts (including our president) as illegal acts.
These statues should go, but through legal means, not acts of vigilantism.
Democrats should distance themselves from these acts.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)LovesPNW
(65 posts)The monuments need to go, but they need to be removed legally ... That's how I see it ...
Extrajudicial justice is a dark road we don't want to see paved with the blood of innocents ... The other side would love to be unleashed ...
Henry Krinkle
(208 posts)And it will only be made worse if there are no arrests and prosecution of those responsible for destruction
of public property... as well there should be.
Grassy Knoll
(10,118 posts)...And When They Came To The Part " His Boy, Elroy"
I Couldn't Stop Laughing, And Don't Get Me Started
With " Jane, His Wife"
..Ahh, Good Times!!
shanny
(6,709 posts)Because you know what? This is a war. Their side has been waging war for decades, at a minimum.
They injure, and kill people; we destroy property that was erected to shove their worldview in black people's faces; erected not to honor the dead, right after the Civil War, but decades or even a century later.
Who holds the moral high ground, do you think?
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Big thumbs down from me.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,836 posts)I get that there could be great emotional satisfaction from the destruction of a symbol of racial oppression, but there's a better way to deal with these things.
Catherine Vincent
(34,491 posts)I disagree with this.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)MichMan
(11,971 posts)The same people cheering this should do the same if that occurred
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)ecstatic
(32,731 posts)if necessary. I admire their courage.
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)Really stupid, people aren't
thinking clearly.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)-- ML King, Jr.
ExciteBike66
(2,374 posts)civil disobedience without any violence towards individuals or even private property.
It also probably saved the city a bit of cash in bringing the monument down to street level.
annabanana
(52,791 posts)They must be removed lawfully. DON'T CEDE THE HIGHER MORAL GROUND... It's not necessary, History is on our side.