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MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 09:50 AM Aug 2017

No Guns Were Fired in Charlottesville.

I continue to be surprised at that, to be quite frank. I think that will not continue to be the case. I fear that it will not be the case. Some were armed there, mostly the right wing crazies. As we have seen, that group is made up of people who are not thinking clearly, for the most part. I believe it is only a matter of time before some confrontation like this ends in gunfire. I remain surprised that it hasn't happened already.

When it does, this spectacle will become something else, altogether. I think we should all be concerned about that possibility in situations like this and exercise watchful caution.

Please be careful if you attend situations where some on the far right attend with arms. Stay away from them. Shun them. It is only a matter of time before someone who is armed uses those arms and starts a chain reaction.

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No Guns Were Fired in Charlottesville. (Original Post) MineralMan Aug 2017 OP
It will happen. Weekend Warrior Aug 2017 #1
I have no doubt it will happen, and MineralMan Aug 2017 #3
Especially with Antifa loading up. Confrontations will be inevitable. jmg257 Aug 2017 #2
So far, I haven't seen the antifa carrying firearms. MineralMan Aug 2017 #4
Excuse me, but there was only one side brandishing firearms in Va. Coventina Aug 2017 #17
Sorry, but I didn't say they were armed in VA. jmg257 Aug 2017 #20
OK then, where have they appeared with firearms? Coventina Aug 2017 #21
we recommend you arming yourselves immediately and getting concealed carry permits Not Ruth Aug 2017 #31
Nice way to take their words out of context! Coventina Aug 2017 #33
You only have so much room in the Reply title Not Ruth Aug 2017 #35
My question still remains: where have the antifa brandished guns? Coventina Aug 2017 #36
Concealed carry permits means that you would never see them, not that there are none Not Ruth Aug 2017 #38
Agreed. But my point was only ONE side was brandishing guns in Va. Coventina Aug 2017 #40
Just saw this in the NY Times Not Ruth Aug 2017 #45
That group doesn't look like any antifa group I've ever seen. Coventina Aug 2017 #46
Why do they look off, they look like normal people except with guns Not Ruth Aug 2017 #47
Here's why: Coventina Aug 2017 #48
They have neck bandanas and hats which might be shared identifiers Not Ruth Aug 2017 #49
Certainly they have coordinated as a group. Coventina Aug 2017 #50
True Antifa are dressed in black Not Ruth Aug 2017 #57
Anyone can show up to a protest and pretend to be whatever they want. Coventina Aug 2017 #58
But ANTIFA is known for some physical assaults. ProgressiveValue Aug 2017 #23
The antifa engages in self defense and does not strike first. Coventina Aug 2017 #24
So no protesting the Nazis? rgbecker Aug 2017 #5
I said nothing of the sort. I simply advised caution MineralMan Aug 2017 #10
It did in Minneapolis exboyfil Aug 2017 #6
Yes. I'm there. MineralMan Aug 2017 #11
Lucky. But the guns were used for intimidation, not to mention to embolden white wing racists. Hoyt Aug 2017 #7
Yes. So far, that has been the case. MineralMan Aug 2017 #14
With all the violence that happened and the wack jobs with guns. BASE Aug 2017 #8
they used a car instead....i dead, nineteen wounded. no gunfire needed. spanone Aug 2017 #9
Yes. Inspired no doubt by vehicle attacks MineralMan Aug 2017 #12
👍🏼 spanone Aug 2017 #13
Yes, it is my fear too. Yonnie3 Aug 2017 #15
I don't think the racist nazis have much training, really, at all. MineralMan Aug 2017 #16
My training question was rhetorical, Yonnie3 Aug 2017 #44
It was a close call: TubbersUK Aug 2017 #18
The Hulk Hogan look-alike is slightly smarter than I first guessed gratuitous Aug 2017 #28
That is terroristic threats Cosmocat Aug 2017 #34
Jeez with all those militia types out there defending freedumb... Historic NY Aug 2017 #19
Yes. Intimidation is their goal, and their guns are their means of MineralMan Aug 2017 #22
I fully expected gunfire in Charlotte NastyRiffraff Aug 2017 #25
It's inevitable, I think. MineralMan Aug 2017 #26
They are coming to Boston next weekend. smirkymonkey Aug 2017 #27
Boston will not be a friendly place for them. MineralMan Aug 2017 #30
I dreaded that sound the whole time I watched on cable--the sound of a gunshot librechik Aug 2017 #29
If you watch the Seattle videos, there are gun shots, but they are from cops firing tear gas Not Ruth Aug 2017 #37
They crave confrontation ProudLib72 Aug 2017 #32
Denying permits is difficult for cities. MineralMan Aug 2017 #39
Mineral Man are you going to todays march? moda253 Aug 2017 #41
Nope. I'm on a deadline here. MineralMan Aug 2017 #42
I expect gunfire soon Runningdawg Aug 2017 #43
I think it's because the ones that came armed are actually cowards. Lint Head Aug 2017 #51
Yeah, but the miscreants darn sure used them to intimidate. Hoyt Aug 2017 #52
Were you concerned about guns DashOneBravo Aug 2017 #53
We aren't talking about that, but those gunz were probably stolen from gun fanciers. Hoyt Aug 2017 #54
Zimmerman belongs in jail. DashOneBravo Aug 2017 #56
The ones with the arms customerserviceguy Aug 2017 #55
 

Weekend Warrior

(1,301 posts)
1. It will happen.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 09:53 AM
Aug 2017

Depending on the circumstances, it might get much worse than one shot. Say a shot was fired over the weekend in the middle of the gathering. There is a good chance we would end up with a bunch of scared members of the alt-right all pulling out their guns.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
3. I have no doubt it will happen, and
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 09:56 AM
Aug 2017

it's likely to escalate quickly when it does. People armed with firearms are going to use them, at some point.

Our open carry policies are going to backfire, and backfire badly one of these days. Probably soon.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
4. So far, I haven't seen the antifa carrying firearms.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 09:59 AM
Aug 2017

I wonder how long that will last, though. I am not a fan of anarchists with firearms, any more than I am of right-wing racists with firearms. The danger is growing, and this fragile situation is bound to change one day soon.

I think it's inevitable, which is why I'm advising caution by those who go to these confrontations. Being careful and watchful is extremely important. Although open gun battles have not yet occurred, that could change in an instant.

Coventina

(27,159 posts)
21. OK then, where have they appeared with firearms?
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:50 AM
Aug 2017

I want to see this, as it would be against their own stated principles.

Coventina

(27,159 posts)
33. Nice way to take their words out of context!
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:36 AM
Aug 2017

GUNS

A word about guns. Ask yourself: Can another weapon suffice instead of a gun? If you do choose to own guns, engage in regular practice. A gun can give you a false sense of security and if you’re not in practice, you’re more likely to be injured than if you don’t have one. Keep in mind that gun shops and range owners themselves are often connected to right-wing political groups.

If you choose to engage in firearms training, make sure everyone understands basic gun safety—as well as local laws—when it comes to owning, transporting, and potentially using firearms.

Above all, don’t front with images of guns unless you own and are ready to use them. Which is better: to pretend that you have guns and then have one pulled on you when you are unarmed, or for fascists to try to roll on you without realizing you are armed?

However, if right-wingers have been threatening people in your area with guns, or have already shot people, we recommend you arming yourselves immediately and getting concealed carry permits, where possible.For more information, see “Know Your (Gun) Rights! A Primer for Radicals.”

Coventina

(27,159 posts)
46. That group doesn't look like any antifa group I've ever seen.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 01:52 PM
Aug 2017

I'm more than a little suspicious of them.

Coventina

(27,159 posts)
48. Here's why:
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 05:03 PM
Aug 2017

1) the antifa discourages the use of guns, so they are "outside the norm" with that
2) they don't have anything that marks them out as antifa. Most antifa display some sort of identifier, so that they are not confused against those on the other side
3) they don't even have any evidence of counter-protesting ANYTHING

 

Not Ruth

(3,613 posts)
49. They have neck bandanas and hats which might be shared identifiers
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 08:32 PM
Aug 2017

Not sure what evidence you mean, like bruises?

Coventina

(27,159 posts)
50. Certainly they have coordinated as a group.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 09:32 PM
Aug 2017

What I am saying is that what their group stands for is not made visible.

And by "evidence" I mean they don't have any signs, symbols, etc. in their hands or on their clothing that they are "countering" the message of the Nazi rally.

In fairness, they don't have any PRO Nazi stuff either, but I am suspicious of a group that shows up to "protest" but does not give any visible sign of protest.

 

Not Ruth

(3,613 posts)
57. True Antifa are dressed in black
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 03:24 PM
Aug 2017

But associate Antifa can look like anyone, correct?

"Antifa refers to the originally German organisation "Antifascistiche Aktion"; antifascistic action, and is a black bloc, predominantly anarcho-communist, counter-right wing organization."

Comment somewhere in this link.

https://www.facebook.com/comemenism/photos/a.1571997619723203.1073741829.1566940880228877/1941855522737409/?type=3

Coventina

(27,159 posts)
58. Anyone can show up to a protest and pretend to be whatever they want.
Sun Aug 20, 2017, 03:31 PM
Aug 2017

I've given you the reasons why I disbelieve what this group told the reporter.

You have no proof that they are antifa, as they themselves chose not to visually identify themselves.
Just wearing black is not "proof."

Antifa are PROUDLY anti-Nazi and carry signs or wear emblems to that effect.

The fact that this group chose not to do that is highly suspicious.

 

ProgressiveValue

(130 posts)
23. But ANTIFA is known for some physical assaults.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:59 AM
Aug 2017

What these nazis are doing is carrying in the hope that ANTIFA punches them or swings a bat at them, so they can start shooting and say "I feared for my life". They are trying their best to construct and provoke a situation where they hope they can kill someone and hope the law will be on their side.

I'm more worried about the ones conceal and carrying than the ones waking around with rifles. I don't think the ones with rifles with get someone to attack them, but an ANTIFA member planning on violence wouldn't know the person they are about to swing at has a gun if it is concealed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we already have one situation at a completely different rally where a man and woman went armed specifically with the intention of waiting to get attacked; and they got their wish and shot the person?

Coventina

(27,159 posts)
24. The antifa engages in self defense and does not strike first.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:08 AM
Aug 2017

We have a member of antifa here who is a Quaker.

rgbecker

(4,834 posts)
5. So no protesting the Nazis?
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 09:59 AM
Aug 2017

Thank goodness there are many who are not going to take your warnings to heart.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
10. I said nothing of the sort. I simply advised caution
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:00 AM
Aug 2017

and situational awareness. I suggest that you read my posts with greater attention to what I actually write.

exboyfil

(17,865 posts)
6. It did in Minneapolis
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 09:59 AM
Aug 2017

when counter protestor was chased and then opened up. It was basically a baited ambush.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/04/26/jamar-clark-protest-shooter-scarsella-gets-15-years

You are right that we will probably see a lot more of it. Eventually we will have protests and counter protests that are both armed.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
14. Yes. So far, that has been the case.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:07 AM
Aug 2017

I'm very worried that that situation could change at any time, with those firearms being used as they were designed to be used.

Someone upthread said that I was telling people to stay away from demonstrations. That is not true, in any way. I am saying that people need to stay aware and always be prepared should the situation suddenly change. Sick people, full of anger and loathing, who carry firearms are not safe people. They are not predictable people. They are very, very dangerous people.

 

BASE

(44 posts)
8. With all the violence that happened and the wack jobs with guns.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:00 AM
Aug 2017

it is nothing short of a miracle that something worse hasn't happened. I was offline all weekend and I'm just now seeing most of this. Pictures of guys dressed up like soldiers carrying assault rifles...WTF?

spanone

(135,857 posts)
9. they used a car instead....i dead, nineteen wounded. no gunfire needed.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:00 AM
Aug 2017

as you say, it's only a matter of time.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
12. Yes. Inspired no doubt by vehicle attacks
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:03 AM
Aug 2017

elsewhere. One person out of control with rage and impotence can turn any event into a bloodbath. Stay aware if you participate in such situations. Things can change very, very quickly, so always be conscious of your surroundings.

Yonnie3

(17,462 posts)
15. Yes, it is my fear too.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:24 AM
Aug 2017

My first thought was that the police will just shoot the crazy. My second thought is that my first thought is idiotic.

Anything, a firecracker, a bottle dropped from a building top, a pop on a public address system, could set off a bloodbath. Cops are trained not to just fire into a crowd. Who knows what the crazies have for training and discipline?

At demonstrations in DC I've seen rooftop snipers, I suspect they are supposed deal with this sort of thing, to take out the bad and miss the good. In DC you can get arrested just for carrying around a gun, not in VA.

Here in Charlottesville, no one saw, or at least no one reported, any over-watch. There were too many armed crazies for a few police sharpshooters to deal with. There also were unverified reports that some of the militia wore body armor.

These demonstrations are quite different than the demonstrations here in the sixties and seventies. Those demonstrations were aimed at the government and did not attract large numbers of citizens in disagreement.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
16. I don't think the racist nazis have much training, really, at all.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:36 AM
Aug 2017

As for the police, I don't know what preparations were made in Charlottesville beforehand. Very frankly, preparing for things like this is very, very difficult. Yesterday, in Seattle, the police managed to keep the two sided separated by blocking access to the site where the creeps were demonstrating. It worked fairly well.

The right-wingers are working from a fairly well-defined playbook, I think. Counter protests by their opponents, however, are not as well planned. There are also antifa and anarchist players in these situations, especially when advanced notice is given that something will be happening. They're completely unpredictable, and are, in some ways, as big a danger to peaceful attendees as are the neo-nazis. If an armed conflict begins, it will probably be started by either the nazis or the anarchists. Others will be caught by surprise, if they are not being situationally aware on a constant basis.

An additional risk is also possible. I will not be surprised if some armed individual acts as a sniper from a higher vantage point at one of these events and starts the entire disaster by sniping at leaders of one side or the other. This has not occurred so far, but is always a possibility, particularly if the police have not prepared adequately for the situation. I am quite surprised that such a thing has not already happened, frankly.

The risks are great.

Yonnie3

(17,462 posts)
44. My training question was rhetorical,
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 01:37 PM
Aug 2017

but the larger issue remains.

This is a powder keg awaiting a spark!

The separation was not very feasible in downtown Charlottesville. Things would have been much more controllable in McIntire Park where the City Government wanted to move the rally.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
28. The Hulk Hogan look-alike is slightly smarter than I first guessed
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:23 AM
Aug 2017

He's got his piece out, all ready to go, when some very dim part of his brain flickers into life and says, "You have six shots, and there are more than six people standing there." Luckily that part of his brain won the debate. This time.

Cosmocat

(14,567 posts)
34. That is terroristic threats
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:39 AM
Aug 2017

IF governments and law enforcement were truly concerned about this, they would bring in man power with high powered cameras and video recorders, possibly even drones, and have them actively record these events and focus on these types of people, then prosecute them.

Historic NY

(37,452 posts)
19. Jeez with all those militia types out there defending freedumb...
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:43 AM
Aug 2017

their case for open carry was to scare and not protect the innocent. Its time to crush these faux "protectors of freedumb".

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
22. Yes. Intimidation is their goal, and their guns are their means of
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 10:55 AM
Aug 2017

intimidation. As they have discovered, it works fairly well, but has limits they have not discovered yet. At some point, their firearms are going to have a different effect - confrontation by the people they seek to intimidate. That is the point at which those firearms are most likely to be used. That is the tipping point.

Most good-hearted, progressive people who come to such public demonstrations have no intentions of violence. It never really crosses their minds, and they often assume that the armed people they encounter also do not want violence. Sadly, however, they are wrong. Some of those armed individuals on the right actually do want to be violent, and are looking for an excuse that justifies a violent reaction. Some of those armed people are not completely right in the head, as well. Perhaps even most of them.

Just above is a video of one such person, who repeatedly takes his semi-automatic pistol out of its holster and threatens others with it. He doesn't fire it, but it is a very short step to taking that action. At some point, some unbalanced, angry, fearful, or unhinged person with a firearm will fire it at people. When that happens, other armed people will almost certainly ready their arms. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

In too many places in this country, open carry has become a norm at events like these. I expect a tragedy is just waiting to happen, and it will at some point.

What's the answer? Well, laws that prohibit carrying firearms at public demonstrations like this would be a good start. But, that's not likely to happen in places where such laws are not already in place. So, if you're at one of these events, identify locations where people are actively carrying and be aware that nearby areas are potentially very dangerous. Participate, but avoid putting yourself in the line of potential fire. Know the risks and behave accordingly.

NastyRiffraff

(12,448 posts)
25. I fully expected gunfire in Charlotte
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:15 AM
Aug 2017

when I saw the "open carry" there. It's surprising that it didn't happen. But it will.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
27. They are coming to Boston next weekend.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:19 AM
Aug 2017

I am going to be out of town, in a way I am kind of glad. I will be surprised if things go smoothly.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
30. Boston will not be a friendly place for them.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:29 AM
Aug 2017

I don't think they'll be allowed to be openly armed, either. Perhaps they'll cancel.

librechik

(30,676 posts)
29. I dreaded that sound the whole time I watched on cable--the sound of a gunshot
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:25 AM
Aug 2017

I felt even worse when I soothed myself with the thought that such an incident might get the attention of certain people in a position to actually help.

Sadly no. That calamity is still in our future.

But don't fret, the Alt-Hitlers are planning more Charleston events as the fate of the Robert E. Lee statue is debated by city council.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
32. They crave confrontation
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:35 AM
Aug 2017

They have been awaiting this type of scenario for decades. The government backs them, and they are free to put down liberals. I still contend the best way to deal with them is for cities to take a stand and deny them permits. Even if they take it to court and win at least it will cause a delay during which, hopefully, everyone calms down.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
39. Denying permits is difficult for cities.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 11:58 AM
Aug 2017

They are hobbled by having to support the First Amendment. Denial of permits can be challenged in either local or federal court, and generally the organization requesting the permit will prevail.

It's a real dilemma for local governments.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
42. Nope. I'm on a deadline here.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 12:08 PM
Aug 2017

Frankly, I'm pretty much done with street activism. At 72, I can't walk far without my hips acting up. I'm leaving it to the younger guys.

Runningdawg

(4,522 posts)
43. I expect gunfire soon
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 01:15 PM
Aug 2017

I also expect bombs in the near future and don't for a moment think these will be limited to demonstrations. Keep your eyes and ears open EVERYWHERE.

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
51. I think it's because the ones that came armed are actually cowards.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 09:39 PM
Aug 2017

Not that it isn't a cowardly act to kill someone but these yahoos play army in their militias and on their wooded playgrounds but when it comes to actually shooting another human being and being in the real military they have no guts. And are so afraid their own guts will be spilled onto the ground if they fire a shot.

DashOneBravo

(2,679 posts)
53. Were you concerned about guns
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 10:58 PM
Aug 2017

When Eric Dorner, Micah Johnson and Gavin Long ambushed police officers?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
54. We aren't talking about that, but those gunz were probably stolen from gun fanciers.
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:17 PM
Aug 2017

Try the Gungeon or Discussionist, those gun fanciers love that kind of stuff and George Zimmerman.

Now back to armed racists and Nazis.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
55. The ones with the arms
Sat Aug 19, 2017, 11:29 PM
Aug 2017

are somewhat disciplined. The asshat who had a car only had to pass an Ohio driver license test.

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