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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Alt-Right has made me re-think my views on the Antifa
And it takes a lot for me to change my views about anything.
I still believe that if you break things that aren't yours or are the first to resort to violence you are in the wrong and ceded the moral high ground. That being said if you are there to protect peaceful protesters protesing the Alt-Right you are doing something that is noble, courageous, and laudable.
Christ said "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down ones life for his friends."
ON EDIT- https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029474300
Squinch
(50,989 posts)IndieRick
(53 posts)A strong statement to be certain but one I think a proper response. I was a supporter of Occupy, a movement driven underground by the associated violence from these hooded testosterone driven children who destroyed the property of potential supporters, diminished the message of that worthy group as well.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)However, I think this is a knee jerk reaction and precisely what the Nazis want. It's better to show they are as irrelevant to contemporary society as their beloved statues. It's tough, and I've had my fantasies involving counter violence on a massive scale, but that could incite even more morans to join in.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Here are some of the things torchantifa has written on its site: https://torchantifa.org/?page_id=13
Their "About" page has this:
The Torch Network is a network of Militant antifascists across (but not limited to) the united states. We are born out of, and pay our respects to, the Anti-Racist Action Network. We are dedicated to confronting fascism and other element of oppression. We believe in direct action.
Responding to bigoted speech is important. We believe in being proactive when it comes to fascist violence, which means confronting fascist organizing before they have a chance to put their ideas into action, and taking fascist threats seriously.
I read "Militant", "direct action" and "proactive" to mean any means necessary. Of course, that is my own interpretation, and someone else who joins their movement might interpret it to mean something lighter.
However, if you just go by their "Points of Unity", they seem fairly benign:
1. We disrupt fascist and far right organizing and activity.
2. We dont rely on the cops or courts to do our work for us. This doesnt mean we never go to court, but the cops uphold white supremacy and the status quo. They attack us and everyone who resists oppression. We must rely on ourselves to protect ourselves and stop the fascists.
3. We oppose all forms of oppression and exploitation. We intend to do the hard work necessary to build a broad, strong movement of oppressed people centered on the working class against racism, sexism, nativism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, and discrimination against the disabled, the oldest, the youngest, and the most oppressed people. We support abortion rights and reproductive freedom. We want a classless, free society. We intend to win!
4. We hold ourselves accountable personally and collectively to live up to our ideals and values.
5. We not only support each other within the network, but we also support people people outside the network who we believe have similar aims or principles. An attack on one is an attack on all
Then we move on to their roots:
Flash back to 1987
ARA originally came out of the efforts of Minneapolis anti-racist Skinheads to create an organization that could combat the presence of nazi skinheads in that city and its neighboring city, St. Paul. The Baldies, a multi-racial skinhead crew, were fighting the Nazi skinhead group, the White Knights. If Baldies came across the nazis, then the nazis could expect to be attacked, or served some of what the Baldies called Righteous Violence.
You also have to consider there are many, many chapters of antifa. I think it may depend on who is involved in each chapter whether or not that particular chapter resorts to violence. It's dangerous to lump all antifa members under one umbrella. I can believe the person you mention could have been telling the truth. The chapter a state over could have been completely different.
Shell_Seas
(3,335 posts)It is for this exact reason that I have not made any decision on how I feel on Antifa, yet. Someone has to stand up to alt-right. They have taken over all the way up to the White House.
AlexSFCA
(6,139 posts)I understanf their goal is to make nazi scared of physical violence but I am not so sure it's effective. And eventually it's counterproductive. They would do best as security for counter protests.
With that said, when nazism escalates to civil war levels, we will need antifa and their methods to phyically remove menace.
Coventina
(27,159 posts)As long as there are fascists, we need the antifa.
Expecting Rain
(811 posts)Liberal Democrats should repudiate these groups. They do us great harm.
womanofthehills
(8,746 posts)Rebecca Solnit shared David Freeman's post.
·
Antifascists to the rescue: "A group of Nazis advanced towards us. A band of AntiFa stepped up to defend the clergy, we asked them to step back and allow us to make our nonviolent stand. They respected our request and reluctantly backed off. We were actually surprised they complied. They said that they disagreed with our tactics but appreciated and respected us. Respect breeds respect. After perhaps a hundred Nazis broke through our line we regrouped but an even larger Nazi force started towards us. The AntiFa rushed in and broke the Nazi charge. We did not ask for them. We were prepared to be beaten. However, we all respected that they defended us in love despite our disagreement on tactics. They certainly saved 19 clergy and me from a brutal beating and likely even death. They did what the police would not do all day. They defended innocent lives. I cannot criticize them for that. I thank them." Marko Muir, fyi
Expecting Rain
(811 posts)Defending the resort to violent bully boys who hate liberal values in disheartening to read on forum purportedly aimed at Democrats.
MLK didn't need goon squads in the march for racial justice. We can take on the Nazis without Antifa and do a more effective job (and in a fashion that doesn't make us complicit in violence).
maxsolomon
(33,360 posts)I'm sure Antifa will take it into consideration.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)I don't even know exactly who "they" are. We get groups of masked, destructive kids who call themselves antifa or anarchists, sometimes identify as Libertarians, and they randomly destroy property and fight the police without any positive (and I don't mean uplifting, but goal-oriented and constructive) message.
Their acts give ammunition to the very "many sides" bullshit that is being spouted. I'm not for rolling over by any means but organization, message, and not breaking store windows and setting fires seems like a good start.
The Mouth
(3,162 posts)maxsolomon
(33,360 posts)Are you contending they are?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)maxsolomon
(33,360 posts)You're saying he's a liar?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Sure, maybe a few don't cross over between the two groups. But by and large they are.
Find anyone in a leadership role in the Antifa movement who is over 25 and Google them and you will find Black Bloc history on most.
They use the same tactics of dress and violence followed by blending into the others dressed the same.
It's the same crowd of people for the most part.Just because you find one or two that are not crossing the lines doesn't change that.
maxsolomon
(33,360 posts)most of the results are Anti-Antifa. so, you know, grain of salt. I can't find an online presence for Emerald City Antifa other than their Facebook Page. which is likely deliberate.
even if there is overlap, I'm not sure I give a fuck. I'm not a perfect-nonviolence-or-bust liberal.
nolabear
(41,990 posts)I've seen people who call themselves antifa disrupt things in Seattle and Portland in the same way self proclaimed anarchists do. It doesn't seem to have reason. But I've also seen real legitimate protest and countering of Nazis and alt right by people who are called antifa. So I don't know what the associations are among all those people. As for Black Bloc, I know next to nothing. Tell me about them. I'd appreciate it.
maxsolomon
(33,360 posts)who took a bullet in the guts point-blank at the Milo Yiannopolis speech at Univ of Washington on Trump's Inauguration Day:
http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/uw-shooting-victim-doesnt-want-shooters-gun-rights-permanently-revoked/
What did he do to provoke Elizabeth Hokoana? He took a can of Pepper Spray away from her husband. Which is SELF DEFENSE.
He almost died.