WHY HBOS CONFEDERATE IS A BAD IDEA

[HAB911]

THE SOUTH CAN NOT RISE AGAIN

The creators of worldwide hit fantasy Game of Thrones are set to bring a different type of fantasy to HBO, an alternative history take on the American Civil War in Confederate. A fantasy in which the southern states successfully seceded from the Union and slavery was never outlawed; in fact it became a modern institution. That is not to be confused with the Prison Industrial Complex which is also a modern institution reliant on slave labour.

Here is HBO’s press release on the synopsis of the show:

The drama chronicles the events leading to the Third American Civil War. The series takes place in an alternate timeline, where the Southern states have successfully seceded from the Union, giving rise to a nation in which slavery remains legal and has evolved into a modern institution. The story follows a broad swath of characters on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Demilitarized Zone — freedom fighters, slave hunters, politicians, abolitionists, journalists, the executives of a slave-holding conglomerate and the families of people in their thrall.

https://geeksofcolor.co/2017/07/30/the-south-can-not-rise-again-why-hbos-confederate-is-a-bad-idea/



In related news: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029343555

[Blue_Adept]

1. Don't judge a book by it's cover. That said, I love the angst over this

Alternate history books have been around for an age. Some movies done as well. TV shows on the genre side have done it time and time again in various ways.

While enjoying Man in the High Castle, I'm sure I'll enjoy this as well to see a different take on things and what it can explore.

Hell, friends and I used to do role playing board games for years about alternate timelines from all periods in history.

[HAB911]

3. Yep, I remember the Look magazine story long ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_the_South_Had_Won_the_Civil_War

[frazzled]

4. So then, why not do an alternate history where the white people are the slaves

Alternative means alternative, so why present an alternative that really only repeats the reality of the past? And which satisfies the dreams of the worst among us?

Let Roxanne Gay explain it:

This show’s premise highlights the limits of the imagination in a world where oppression thrives. These creators can imagine a world where the Confederacy won the Civil War and black people are still enslaved, but they can’t or aren’t interested in imagining a world where, say, things went in a completely different direction after the Civil War and, say, white people are enslaved. Or a world where slavery never happened at all. What would happen in a show where American Indians won the conflicts in which they were embroiled as the British and French and other European nations colonized this country? What would happen if Mexicans won the Mexican-American War and Texas and California were still part of Mexico?

It is curious that time and again, when people create alternate histories, they are largely replicating a history we already know, and intimately. They are replicating histories where whiteness thrives and people of color remain oppressed.

“Confederate” is slavery fan fiction . . .

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/opinion/hbo-confederate-slavery-civil-war.html?_r=0

[Blue_Adept]

5. We've had that done in literature

Movies and TV tend to be behind the curve when it comes to this stuff. And alternate timeline shows are still very much in the minority of what's done. So there's just not a lot to pull from. It's usually done more in one-off kind of things in comics and TV shows, from things like Sliders and so forth.

And yeah, I read the NYT piece before. Which is fine. And I agree with a lot of it. I'd love to see other areas explored. And something like this project coming to light might get more of these areas explored in film and TV. I love alternate timeline stories so getting more of them is a big plus in my book.

[frazzled]

10. No, they are always adolescent fantasies in which

extreme violence, sexism, and slavery are the main appeal. I would expect nothing less from the creators of Game of Thrones, or the appetites of its audience.

Don't let your addiction to these things do the talking.

[Blue_Adept]

11. Wow, look at the size of that broad brush you're waving around

So, you're not interested in discussion. Just belittling and demonizing of people. Gotcha.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Watching Game of Thrones is EXACTLY LIKE Voting For Donald Trump!!!!

I hope you're happy, you and your "addiction"

[Warren DeMontague]

74. it's the most popular show on the planet right now, isn't it?

Why oh WHY won't people do as they are told???

[frazzled]

108. And Donald J Trump is President of the United States of America

Point made.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Ah. logic for people who don't understand how logic works.

[LittleBlue]

7. It's implausible

Both this story and Man in the High Castle flip the outcome of a single war to explore the implications. One would have to turn history on its head to explain how slaves enslaved their masters in America. It would veer so far into fantasy that few would watch.

[BannonsLiver]

13. "It would veer so far into fantasy people wouldn't watch"

You mean like Game of Thrones, the most popular television show in the world at the moment?

Actually despite the hair splitting Castle akin to Confederate. Very similar concept.

[LittleBlue]

34. GOT fits its world

It was written by a brilliant author in a setting mirroring the Middle Ages. If Bran Stark pulled up in a limousine, that would ruin the immersion. Just like an alt history that strays too far from plausibility.

It would flop IMHO

[BannonsLiver]

106. Right

But this proposed series takes place in present day. You're not going to see PT Beauregard riding around in a tank.

[frazzled]

16. Only if you cannot imagine a world in which

the superiority of the white race is an incontrovertible fact, and the only possible standard by which to measure things.

It's no more implausible than the South having won the war ... and not just in military terms but in moral ones, given the pervasiveness of abolitionism both here and in civilized nations abroad.

[LittleBlue]

36. I disagree

Granted, the south winning the war was a long shot. But if a few political outcomes and a few battles had gone the other way, it might not have.

So many things would have to be changed for a slavery role reversal. Essentially all European history would have to be completely different, and all African history and government structures would need to change for at least 2000 years. It would work better as a fantasy than an alt history.

[bettyellen]

22. But her dragons are plausible? What?

[LittleBlue]

35. GOT isn't an alt history

It's a fantasy that only works because the author wrote a good story. Different genres, different rules. One expects to see dragons in fantasy. Now if dragons appeared from the sky in a WW2 alt history, people wouldn't watch.

[Blue_Adept]

39. Here's the exercise to take

The series focusing on this:

What if the south won/tied

What people in this thread are asking for is for a series that flips it so that whites are slaves.

Now, how do you get to that point.

What pivotal moment or series of moments happens that gets us there.

Alternate history stories work from pivot points. What if aliens landed during WWII. What if Pearl Harbor was never bombed. What if Lincoln wasn't assassinated.

You then move forward from there

Now, ask how you get the racial element flipped. That's why it's being said implausible because of how it's being asked.

What you need to do to get to this kind of story is to go back and have the first arrivals being African sailors and pioneers, how they would work with/against the native americans, and then show how when europeans got here they'd flip the script to become the slaves.

There are so many pieces that would have to be flipped in so many areas that it just falls apart, especially in the context of a TV series like this. A lengthy series of novels? Definitely. This kind of project? No. Implausible.

[bettyellen]

43. So aliens landing is also plausible? LOL. The lengths people go to....

[Blue_Adept]

44. Betty, you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say.

Aliens arriving is a pivot point. WW2 is underway and aliens arrive. Then the story goes forward.

If you want a story where whites are slaves, where is the pivot point that gets us that?

[bettyellen]

46. Any crazy implausible thing, by your standard is a viable "pivot point"....

If you put dragons and aliens on the table, then there is a way. Not understanding the thinking that it can't happen when thereve been successful series built on literally every other sort of take over (including by animals for fucks sake) imaginable.

[Blue_Adept]

47. Dragons and aliens are far-end examples

But again, can you come up with a pivot point that would explain what some are saying should be done instead? I went into one in this thread but it requires going back much further and completely altering everything in a way that doesn't work historically.

We're largely talking about "realistic" alternate history material here and a lot of people like to bring in Game of Thrones and dragons simply because the creators are involved in this project as well as that one. It's a completely bizarre point to make.

[bettyellen]

52. I don't think it would be hard to do something similar to High Castle....

The south was so devastated by the war it's a clean slate. Slaves revolt and win the war for the north. In exchange they'd are given "states rights" and allowed reparations in the form of becoming the masters, enslaving only those who held slaves themselves as a form of Justice. They become the wealthy and dominant class in the south building on their free pool of white labor. All that without mystical creatures or aliens. Not hard at all for me to imagine.

[Mariana]

76. You're right about that, the defeated South

could have evolved in any of a hundred ways. Your story idea sounds very interesting. I think you should write it up.

[bettyellen]

77. Thanks! I see the dude who challenged me has bolted from the convo...

I guess my little narrative was just "too much" for him,ha ha. But aliens were more plausible, lol.

[Ligyron]

51. If we are looking for white slaves one only need glance at history.

There have been many.

Plus brown ones, yellow ones, red ones and all colors, shades and cultures in between. It wasn't really all that long ago either and there are slaves still today.

Unfortunately.

[rusty fender]

129. Already written by

Henry Turtledove

[Warpy]

78. It would also seem to have ignored mechanization

If the south hadn't mechanized, it would never have been able to sell its products anywhere. Feeding and clothing unpaid human labor would have made it too expensive.

[Fozzledick]

17. Read "White Lotus" by John Hersey

https://www.amazon.com/White-Lotus-John-Hersey-ebook/dp/B01H1CE9TC/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1501946268&sr=1-3&keywords=White+Lotus

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1495461.White_Lotus

Not alternate history but post-WW III, white slaves in China.

[librechik]

30. Wonderful book. n/t

[heaven05]

57. all this talk of "white slaves" is BULLSHIT.

real history says those white slaves suffered nothing like the African slaves under the whip of white supremacy in ameriKKKA...all of you making me cry because some Caucasian people suffered......I call BULLSHIT...from destruction of black civilization by mainly Europeans, ameriKKKan slavery all the way up to and including Philando Castile. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Solomon]

134. That's why American slavery was called the

"Peculiar Institution". It was much more brutal than any other slavery in history. Much more.

[heaven05]

135. SO TRUE

but....many deny that solid FACT.

[NutmegYankee]

19. Doesn't have to be an alternate - the Barbary states had that exact situation.

[chimpymustgo]

20. My thought exactly. Make white people the slaves. Entertain yourself with that pain. nt

[hunter]

68. I remember reading an alternate history where Native Americans had held back European invaders...

... and ended up with a Pan-American democracy that was eventually welcoming of immigrants from all over the world, much stronger than the U.S.A..

(No, they did not call themselves "Americans." )

And they kicked some Nazi ass too.

The right google search isn't immediately popping into my head.

[Snackshack]

107. Excellent point!

I will pass on this show.

[misanthrope]

115. Tangential to that, ever hear of "White Man's Burden?"

1995 flick starring Sidney Poitier and John Travolta in a universe where white and black social roles are reversed.

[PoorMonger]

127. I think there may be just that in the works too..

A show called Black America ( which will be an Amazon original series ) is coming from the creator of Adult Swim's Black Jesus. I only read a quick take on it - but it sounds like it might be about an alternate history where reparations for slavery were paid out and black Americans became an advantaged class.

I've read these things in novels before and some were thought provoking in a good way. We should understand that they might be messed up - but sometimes they are that way and still have something to say.

Sci-fi ( of which Alternate Hostory is a sub genre ) is often heavy with social subtext critical of current times. I expect this series to try that. I'll reserve condemnation of it until I know more.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Good points.

Amazing how many forget "The Man in the High Castle", but then again the minority in that scenario being "put down" are Jews, so most don't care. Of course, anyone watching the series also knows African-Americans don't fare well in the 4th Reich either. All the tsuris over something which hasn't even been created is baffling. Personally, I would think in this scenario, The Confederacy would be a "third world nation". There is another article, posted here at DU, which has similar concerns, many of which I find silly, but the overall article is very good and talks about "regionalism" which is what the author's primary concern seems to be, which I found much more compelling. The dangerous myth of a singular, unified, white American South is well worth the read.

[Iggo]

41. I was getting bored with The Man In The High Castle as alternate history.

Then in the last two or three episodes of the first season, the show reminded me that it's not alternate history. It's science fiction.

[hunter]

82. The main point of "The Man in the High Castle" is that authoritarian Nazi ideology...

... is embraced by a significant fraction of white U.S.A..

Had we not been geographically isolated from Nazi Germany, and had our upper class leadership not been Anglophiles horrified by the attacks on their dear old England, I think we would have folded to the Nazi war machine quicker than France did.

Both my grandfathers were anti-authoritarian religious dissidents here in the U.S.A., and both suffered some for that, even when they were doing their duty fighting Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan for the U.S.A..

One of my grandfathers was a pacifist. He wouldn't take up arms. He was given a stark choice of prison or working as a welder, building and repairing ships for the Merchant Marine. He built and repaired ships. He once got beaten bloody by the cops protesting the internment of his Japanese neighbours.

One of my grandfather's was a dreamer, romanticist, and engineer. He loved flying machines. In his fantasy he'd climb down out of the cockpit and all the women would swoon. But he had some mad engineering skills too so the Army Air Force kept him safely on the ground for most of World War II, but they were always a little suspicious of him for his lefty and autistic spectrum dysfunctional siblings. After the war, when the Air Force coalesced into it's own military branch, Christian under God with nukes, they threw him out, and he wandered rather aimlessly, a patent here, a patent there, until Sputnik scared the crap out of everyone. He never talked about his military service, the accomplishment he was most proud of was his work on the Apollo Project. Bits of his metal took men to the moon and back.

[TDale313]

2. I'm a Game of Thrones fan,

but this idea made me very uneasy. I don't think their intention is to make slavery/a modern Condederacy a good thing. I suspect they'll be focusing on the horrors. That said, anything that rewrites the civil war with the potential to glamorize or justify slavery and the Southern cause at this time in our history is probably a very bad idea.

[Blue_Adept]

6. For reference, a wiki list of various alternate history properties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternate_history_fiction

[Blue_Adept]

8. Pax Romana got so close to being made

This was an alternate timeline TV series that we almost got. The original work was fascinating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana_(comics)

[Paladin]

9. You know, a mockumentary on this same subject has already been done.

From 2004: "C.S.A.: The Confederate States Of America." Pretty well done, actually. And the nation survived.

[BannonsLiver]

12. So should Man in the High Castle not be made as well?

I get a little uncomfortable when people start bullying networks into censoring art of any kind. Not a road we should be going down.

[HAB911]

14. I'm not against it, post for discussion

like your alias btw!

[librechik]

31. Look for it on Amazon. Fantastic series!

2 seasons available, I believe

[leftstreet]

32. How many Confederate Generals were hung at Nuremburg?

Huge difference

The South didn't really 'lose' in terms of black experience today

[BannonsLiver]

55. Doesn't really matter

I'm all for creative people being afforded license to excercise their creativity. I assume you are as well?

[Warren DeMontague]

80. It's a story.

I agree with you.

If this was being presented as "hey wouldn't this be wonderful"? Then sure, I would understand the objection. But I don't think there's any indication that's where this is gonna be coming from. In fact, I'm certain it's not.

So to pre-emptively go "This is a fictional story you MAY NOT TELL"... strikes me as kind of fucked up.

[leftstreet]

113. Yes of course. I just think it's a shit idea

I think it's no different than most currently popular tv fare, as authoritarian oppression porn. People seem to get off on it. I'm not a psychiatrist so I don't know why

But given the genre and its current proliferation, I'm not sure how 'creative' it is

[misanthrope]

116. By my reckoning the South has risen again

if the policies and perspectives of the current ruling party and especially the POTUS are seen for what they really are.

[YCHDT]

33. Yes, in Germany it's an aweful idea

[Blue_Adept]

40. I'm sure opinions are varied on it

Some interesting notes from here from some claiming to be German viewers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/maninthehighcastle/comments/5dvbrr/did_the_man_in_the_high_castle_air_in_germany/

[BannonsLiver]

54. The world is not Germany

[dawg]

15. Hell, white Southerners (like me) are the ones likely to be demonized by this show ...

and I'm not going to be all bent out of shape about it.

It's fiction.

We should all reserve judgement until we've had a chance to see it.

[bettyellen]

24. Well demonized is a hell of a lot better than debased, tortured and dehumanized, so there's that...

I'd feel different if the consequences and attitudes that came from that time were long dead- but we all know tthey are not. Too many people are going to be rooting for the slave owners. Too many other people are going to know it's about their own recent ancestors, or themselves in a sense.

[JCanete]

48. This is fair, but what about historic films? What about the handmaid's tale? Who do those

same people root for in those movies and shows?

I'm of the mind that dramatized black experience is overly pigeon-holed to the worst, most violent and dehumanizing pages of history and the present, and that that can't be a good thing for young people of color to be so limited in their scope of possibility by these narratives, to say nothing of the trauma it visits upon them. White kids get the full tapestry of reinvented, whitefied history. Black kids get, hey look, in this film your ancestors are also slaves.

So I am conflicted. i think stories like this one can be powerful and important, and these are things we shouldn't forget about any time soon, but at the same time, they continue to perpetuate that narrow range of experience for people of color.

[bettyellen]

58. I remember the Handmaids Tale as a reaction to the radical evangelical right gaining power....

I wish more men read it and thought about it way back when the book came out. I'm not that interested in seeing there series because the times are worse now for women. It's just too much right now.

I'd trust this whole thing a lot better if it were black film makers, I think if you don't have the black perspective it's going to be a miss. There's just a whole lot that will be unexamined, so to speak. It makes a huge difference.

Have you seen Get Out? It's fucking brilliant, full of layers of meaning and symbolism about the historical exploitation of black bodies. Yet it's scary, beautiful sad and fun.

In some interview Peele said he realized he couldn't hand over his script to white directors, that they'd never get the depth and true meaning of it all. And he recognized that he had to entertain as well to ever reach a large audience- he couldn't make it straight out depressing or it would be just another sad movie about slavery. Get Out was an original take on race issues. This could easily be fan fiction for a whole lot of racist pigs. No doubt the slave owners will be attractive, and have tons of redeeming qualities. That makes me squirm.

[Blue_Adept]

61. IT IS BEING MADE BY BLACK FILMMAKERS

Holy smokes already. This is so frustrating because all the focus is on two of the people on it even though it's being shepherded by FOUR people.



The show is created by D.B. Weiss and David Benioff and co-executive produced and written by Malcolm and Nichelle Spellman.

[bettyellen]

64. They are NOT the creative leads, it's not their baby. Sorry the Spellmans

Last edited Sat Aug 5, 2017, 06:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Are not nearly in the same league as the "dream team" who cooked up this slop. Do you understand he difference between show runners and everyone else?

[JCanete]

63. I understand the reservations. I would hope that the show-runners consult heavily with the writers,

as they've shown they do with Martin on GOT. but that certainly doesn't mean they don't have blind-spots.

As to how people are depicted, the reality is that humans are still humans. What nuance people get from a piece of art is certainly a matter of what they are capable of getting. Show redeeming qualities and some people might get the wrong message, but to not do so is its own kind of lying and propaganda that doesn't help us to unravel and undermine racism. But its not like there weren't whole blocks of racist white people who didn't watch the Dave Chapelle Show and come away with the wrong lessons. That goes with the territory, but its still subversive. Some people will get it and learn from it.

That said, I don't want to be too bullish on Weiss and Benioff. I don't think they have a good handle on cultures in Game of Thrones. They've done some impressive work, but there's a lot of nuance of the books that I think they blew, and I find their own dialogue clunky. I'm not sure they are the two white people, if as you say any white people could handle this, that should be at the helm.

edit: I'd heard somewhere that they were adapting someone else's book, but I can't find that now, and it sounds like maybe they created this story with the help of a couple of co-writers. I don't know, I guess we'll see. If it does suck it up on these issues, it will be worthy of all of the criticism it gets. If it doesn't, then I think there will be good cases for it to exist and to not exist.

[Binkie The Clown]

18. It's fiction. Like "The Satanic Verses". Does this mean a FATWA against HBO in next? n/t

[bettyellen]

45. Are you likening black critics or liberals to extremist fundamentalists? HA shit is crazy

[Cosmocat]

21. You think this is going to make the south look good?

I can't fathom how this it's a bad thing to illustrate how this would look today, cause it can't possibly be good.

[DefenseLawyer]

23. I have come to the conclusion that some stories that are written aren't necessarily true

I know, it took me a while to believe it too, but I'm now confident that this is the case.

[GeorgeGist]

25. A more accurate script would have the Confederacy ...

becoming a 3rd world country.

[JCanete]

49. That's a good point. Does it manage to thrive in this one? nt

[misanthrope]

117. That was the very first thing I thought

when I read the first article on the backlash I came across this past week.

[still_one]

26. So the entertainment industry wants to do their part and join the MSM in the effort to legitimize

racism

[JCanete]

50. what? come on. There are criticisms to have, but do you know anything about this project? How does

this do what you're claiming? Does making historic fiction do the same thing? How about historic non-fiction?

[still_one]

59. The speculation isn't that far from Ron Paul's view that the Civil War was unnecessary, and

"slavery" would have eventually died out on its own

I believe these speculations do intentionally or unintentionally legitimize that thesis

A few months ago CNN entertained the topic "are Jews really human", from a white supremacist, and it is my view this is a form of legitimizing it, whether fiction or not.

The lies that there is no difference between republicans and Democrats was and is has been widely propagated by the media, and this will just be and their speculation to normalize the "confederate" point of view

I hope HBO loses their ass on this endeavor

Just my personal view

[misanthrope]

119. The train of thought on slavery's longevity

you mention is one that still befuddles me. Would it have lasted?

It's a given white supremacy would been undamaged. That's been the case as is.

Would the Southern landowning gentry have stumbled upon the sharecropping system? It became more economically thrifty than the outright ownership of the labor force.

However considering how hyper-conservative Southern culture is, it's hard to see its denizens changing anything without being forced to do so.

[still_one]

120. Then we are much on the same page. The immorality of it, along with the sufferring that

the slaves had to endure, I believe would not have ended if not for the Civil War

Without the Civil Rights Movemen,t the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act would not have happened

I was a kid, but remember clearly how George Wallace tried to block African American Students from entering the University of Alabama, and how JFK sent in the national guard to allow those students to attend classes.

[misanthrope]

128. We have proof the immorality would have continued.

Just look at what occurred when the federal government ceased Reconstruction. It was about a close as they could get to slavery without breaking the laws against enslavement.

[still_one]

132. excellent analysis

[Warren DeMontague]

73. HBO? Seriously?

They have a long and solid record of social activism.

The only people I know of with a standing 'bigotry' beef against HBO right now are the Scientologists.

And I wonder how much of this noise is, actually, coming from their well-funded media apparatus.

[still_one]

93. HBO is a money making enterprise period. CNN, Time Warner, AT&T

People are welcome to spend their 15 to 18 bucks a month if they want. I get it for free and I don't watch it, but I am not the GOT demographic, but each to our own

[Warren DeMontague]

97. It is worth noting, though, that the Scientologists do have it in for HBO bigtime, now.

We cut the cable cord a long time ago, and it's great. I don't need 400 channels of "ice road truckers" or whatever mind-numbing celebrity worship shit is being gobbled up by middle america this week.

But for me, the 18 bucks a month for HBO is totally worth it. Not just GoT but that's a big one. Westworld was good, too.

[still_one]

99. That is cool, and you and others enjoy it, and that is really all that counts

Last edited Sat Aug 5, 2017, 10:55 PM - Edit history (1)

I wasn't saying HBO was bigoted, I was giving a personal opinion that I think the topic for such a program might just legitimize the Confederacy, and thus racism in some people's mind

Right now I think the country is dangerously close to reliving the issues of the Civil War, and while there was always a small group that subscribed to that, I am concerned those numbers are growing

[Warren DeMontague]

101. Here's what I would humbly suggest; that people reserve judgment until the thing is actually aired.

There's a lot of speculation in this article in the OP- Personally I highly doubt this show is going to be showing "sympathetic slave hunters" or somehow making the Confederacy look good, or anything like that.

It may end up making some very important and relevant socio-cultural anti-racism points that can be applied to our current situation; I actually suspect it will.

But just taking the broad outline of the topic and saying "this is going to be terrible and harmful" seems premature.

[still_one]

112. Sure

[Dr. Strange]

118. But I want to be mad NOW!

[mountain grammy]

126. Some of their documentaries are outstanding.

The one about the Lovings told the story far better than the Hollywood movie.
Going Clear exposed Scientology.
HBO is worth every dime of my $15/mo subscription.

[aikoaiko]

27. Thank you for posting this TNC piece

I am struggling with competing values.

Supporting artists' who create provocative things versus the concerns and interests of the black community as they have been expressed.

[Leith]

28. AlternateHistoryHub is a Channel on YouTube

that explores what could have happened if events in history had gone differently. Here is their take on this topic:

It's worth the 7 1/2 minutes and occasional grammatical error to watch.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

37. There have been plenty of alternate histories written.

It's a hugely popular section of science fiction. And alternatives where the South won the Civil War, or the Civil War never happened, are probably the plurality of such novels.

However, anyone seriously considering that alternate, needs to recognize that in the years leading up to the Civil War, the slave-holding south was becoming more and more a backwater. Institutionalized slavery tends to preserve a particular kind of status quo and simply doesn't lend itself to the kind of innovation and technological advances that lead to a first world country.

[Blue_Adept]

38. Let's also keep in mind who is actually working on this project

I know it's fun to push the two white dudes as the main focus behind it, but it's a four-person team that has worked this project.



This kind of promotion below of just the two is very much agenda driven.

Link to tweet

[bettyellen]

60. The "two white dudes" ARE the creative force and show runners behind the project....

Of course they had to elevate two POC to be part of their team (of six) from day one. But they are literally the force behind the project, they've been working on it for years- and then they picked black people to help them with it after they were green lighted.

[Blue_Adept]

62. Sorry, I'll just stop responding to you from here on out

Feel free to ignore any of my posts I've made. You're basically saying the co-executive producers and writers on it are tokens on the project. Got it.

[bettyellen]

66. Like it or not, the two mains on this are calling the shots. And from GOT I don't

Think they're up for the job. The Spellmans are nowhere near the level of their power, it's a lie to say they are equal in this project. They are hired guns, and conspicuously placed in a large group to help sell this project to people with reservations. They haven't previously collaborated w these guys. It's got nothing to do either their talent, but compared to the showrunners they are unknowns. Like it or not, they and HBO were aware they needed POC to sell this idea and they added them to the team asap.

[Lee-Lee]

42. Harry Turtledove has done several different series focused on the same ideas

He takes it from the south winning to how later conflicts play out, what happens with slavery, and how WWI and WWII play out.

He lays out a path where slavery in the south leads to Marxist rebellions among salves who had been brought Marxist thought and ideas by abolitionists, how socialism takes greater hold in the remaining US with a vibrant socialist party because the south isn't par of the electorate and how much of the souths oath would be eerily similar to that of Germany from 1900-1945.

[heaven05]

56. I can't see

where the premise of this HBO presentation is anymore disgusting and relevant than our present legislative branch, our judicial branch and executive branch of our national governing administration, Aug 2017. The new confederacy was promised by the dipshit sock puppet of bannon during his campaign and we got THE new confederacy Jan 20, 2017.

The movie C.S.A, 2004, started the ball rolling, interrupted by a classy 8 years, to return to the days of old....won't be any yes massa, missy, this time. And white people know that they can just fade into the woodwork....and watch the 'bitter fruit' swing in the trees, again.

[Warren DeMontague]

65. Well, at least the people trying to get Game of Thrones censored seem to have kinda given up.

SEX! SEX! SEX!

[bettyellen]

67. I thought it was rape rape rapes added to the narrative that pissed people off?

And that most people were cool with the sex? I don't know for sure, but that's what I recall. I KNOW you didn't mean to conflate the two?

[Warren DeMontague]

69. I thought it was the full frontal nudity, actually. Some people lose it over that.

But I don't know. There's a lot of gruesome shit on that show, to be sure, but it's also pretty central to the narrative.

Either way, there's only one more season after this, so our long national nightmare is almost over.

[bettyellen]

71. Nope,it was mostly they added a few rapes that weren't in the books.

Not about the sex so much.

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Which ones? I've read the books. They've deviated quite a bit from the material

in a lot of ways.

The books only implied that Theon had his dick cut off, too. HBO decided to make that pretty clear.

[bettyellen]

75. I don't remember the names, but you know how readers get attached to their characters....

So Theon was castrated in both the book and he show, and that's the same as inventing rapes how? Oh gosh, it's not. but I'm just here for the dragons and Tyrion.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. I'm not outraged about either, actually. Like I said, it's a rather brutal story.

But it's also a good yarn.

I remember people were mad not that long ago because Cersei and Jaime had a fucked up scene involving sex (but, really, all their sex scenes are by definition fucked up, no?) where she said "no" and it proceeded anyway, so, yeah, rape by definition. Right?

What's interesting, though, is that just last week they had a scene which mirrored- probably deliberately, since the show producers were aware of the prior controversy- that scene almost perfectly; Cersei came in and made a move on Jaime, he said "no" and then she kept going.

I didn't hear anything about it. No one even noticed, as near as I can tell. Certainly the folks who were up in arms before didn't mention it.

[bettyellen]

81. I know it's fiction (that I'm not invested in) but that "no" does mean it was rape...

It actually sounds like you have some confusion about that? And yeah it sounds like they did that to "even the score" which sort of makes it more full of shit. It sounds like they did that to "add some spice" and then they had to figure out a way to "even the score" when that backfired. But to me it's just a fancy dress soap opera, and that's kind of typical. I'm not a fan of fantasy fiction so I really can't weigh in on the changes they made from the books, but some fans were pretty pissed off at the extra servings of degradation served up.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. No, I don't have any confusion. I'm just pointing out that there wasn't a peep over the rape in the

last episode. Maybe people were too busy giving well-deserved praise to Diana Rigg, to notice.

"Wasn't in the books" doesn't, actually, indicate anything. Translating those huge books into an hour long weekly show is a monumental task, narratively speaking. And at this point, we've gone past the books, so nothing that happens is "in the books".

Given that the show is the most popular thing in the entertainment universe, I'd say whatever issues some folks have had with it over the years don't seem to have significantly damaged viewership.


But if people are so bothered by it, I suggest they not watch it.

[bettyellen]

84. That's a very love it or leave it attitude toward criticism, I think....

Those poor saps who spent years following the books should just STFU guess? Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Especially with those serial novella things. You should hear all the complaints from the folks who are fans of Marvel comics, it's nuts.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. I don't, actually, think the complaints are mainly coming from devoted fans of the books.

I think there's a cottage industry of "media/culture outrage" people that is mostly behind this stuff.

Were I more cynical I might say that a good chunk of it comes from the studios, etc. themselves, because they know that "outrage" generates buzz and viewership.

More specifically, telling people not to watch something is one of the best ways to get them to watch it.

Beyond that, it's not just about the rapes or the deviations from the books. The same folks have been complaining from the beginning around of the graphic visual depictions of nudity and clearly consensual sex.

Some people simply want to censor all that stuff- they really should just admit it, already.

[bettyellen]

88. I've not seen half of it, but it appears rape is more common than consensual sex ....

And it's disturbing to have a conversation where the two are conflated as if they are the same because... why is that again? Nude women? Have there been a lot of penis on the show? I've skimmed synopsis occasionally so I can figure out who's who when I do watch, but from what I've seen it's a whole lot of boobs and not nearly enough penis. I'm sure a lot of women would agree w me on that.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. So you haven't really been following it, then.

There has been penis on the show, yes. Penii?

They're not conflated in any way except that the people complaining about the rapes have also been complaining about the sex and nudity from the get-go.

[bettyellen]

90. You've once been reading different criticism than I. It was totally the amount of rapes

And that people didn't think they needed to add on top of what was needed to drive the story forward.

Which penii? Hopefully more than those sad two frame half views we normally get.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. You mean aside from the Theon "dick in a box" scene, I assume

I don't know, but given the internet there's probably a catalog of all the dick shots on GoT. There was at least one steamy same sex scene with Renly and Loras back there, I remember that...

[bettyellen]

94. I love that song! But I did the research you suggested and yeah - there's a big lack of penii on

That show. No male leads, really. It's disappointing tint for sure.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Hey, I'm all for it.

Given the sort of anecdotal cultural stuff I hear, from news pieces about creepy FOX News anchors to just "tinder dick pix" stories friends tell about folks still navigating the weirdness of singles life in the 21st century, my feeling is- as a generalization, of course- men tend to imagine women are more interested in seeing visuals of the male junk than most women actually are

but I have no objection to swingin' jimmitude on an HBO show, or any other piece of entertainment for adults.

I will say, getting back to the whole Jaime/Cersei rape scene(s) and necessity to plot development; I don't, actually, believe there are very many viewers (I won't say none, of course) of GoT who tune in so they can get jollies from watching those exceedingly skeevy and deeply un-erotic sorts of interactions between Lena Headey and Nicloaj Coster-Waldau. So I don't think the point is titillation. If I can speculate what the narrative intent of those scenes is, it is to reiterate that these are two deeply fucked up people each with a lot of internal conflict, and yet the really messed up, dysfunctional relationship between the two is still a prime motivator for both characters.

[bettyellen]

100. You have no idea how much female fans would love to see NCW

have actual good sex on that show. And Snow, not my cup of tea but boy have women been chomping at the bit for that. Basically any sex that's non-violent would be nice. Not too much of that happening though.
And dick pics are a different phenomenon- GOT is supposed to be entertaining and has a ton of gratuitous sexy times aimed at straight men. Not so much at all for staight women. It gets to be a grind, really. In general unsolicited dick pics are the digital equivalent of being flashed- not so entertaining unless you already like the person a whole lot. Not like entertainment where you know you'll get some nudity and violence (and hope against hope not simultaneously again)

[Warren DeMontague]

102. They're both fine looking gents, agreed.

The Jon Snow/Ygritte sex was enthusiastic and fun IIRC. They obviously had chemistry, they're still together off-screen I think.

[bettyellen]

103. Aside from Tyrion and Oberon I can't think of other sex....But they kept him pretty covered up.

Millions of women are pissed off about that. Can't blame them for feeling cheated.

[Warren DeMontague]

104. Sex North of the Wall, lol.

It's like Chicago in January.

But I hear you. I promise when my HBO show airs, there will be lots of good lookin' nude dudes.

[bettyellen]

121. I just caught the last one and holy shit, I've met really liked battle scenes before this show but..

That was crazy. I didn't start watching till season five and after that I started going backwards and trying to figure it all out. There's just so much complicated history between them all I know a lot when over my head. And not for Insecure- totally in my wheelhouse.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. LALALALALALALALAAAAAA IM NOT LISTENING LALALALALALALAAAAAAAA

We're on Pacific Time, over here--

Gotta wait until a little later tonight, Mrs. DeMontague and I will sit down and stream it on HBO NOW...

But, yes. Actually after watching the 1st Season I ran out and bought the books. I was never a Tolkein nerd; too dry (my old man, who had a way with words, used to call it "Bored of the Rings" ) but that story, for whatever reasons, really caught my interest.

[bettyellen]

125. Yeah, I read LOTR in HS and while the movies were pretty, it also bored me....

There's only so much fantasy stuff I can take and he elves and orcs and ..... it just made me long for people, already. Great episode tonight, enjoy!

[Warren DeMontague]

133. Holy Shit.

...that was fun.

Damn.

[bettyellen]

136. Told you so! GOT lured me in with battle scenes which is funny because they're not usually my thing.

I love the locations and costumes so damned much too. it was that one where they get corralled by the soldier w sheilds and they start squeezing in and even the giant wasnt going to save them was just incredible and got me hooked on the show. I should watch that again now that I understand who's who a bit better now, I'd probably enjoy it even more.
I guess it's the showrunners obsession w video games paying off. It's really what they do best.
Why do you think Sansa is worried about who is on Arya's list? Is there someone in particular you think? Stuff still flies over my head.

[Warren DeMontague]

139. That's a good question. I wondered the same thing.

I got the feeling the point of that was Sansa gradually figuring out that Arya isn't just being a silly kid, she's serious and dangerous.

That episode was just plain old badass. What an amazing job they did.

[bettyellen]

140. Sansa reminds me of Jan Brady- jealous of her siblings because they're all really exceptional and

Her super power is being forced to marry someone. I guess she can choose herself now, but that whole "being a lady" thing really backfired for her. She's stuck in that rut, LOL.
I thought maybe Littlefinger? Or Theon? Forget why Aria might hate them, but everyone does. Hmmmm.

[NewJeffCT]

137. OK

In the books, Drogo and Dany's wedding night was consensual and Dany was surprised at how gentle he was with her. In the show, he took her hard and she really had no choice but to go along with the much bigger Drogo.

In the show, Jamie forces himself onto Cersei when he got back to King's Landing - she repeatedly says "no" and he forces himself onto her anyways. In the books, it did not happen that way.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. Right, I mentioned the Jaime/Cersei thing.

I think the 1st book was the only one I didn't actually read cover to cover, I'll take your word for it.

Again, I do think it's interesting that no one seemed to even notice the scene 2 episodes ago that was a direct mirror/callback to the Jaime/Cersei scene- this time he says "no" and she keeps going.

Of course, we're past the books now so "not in the books" is moot.

I can't speak to the Drogo/Danerys one, but like I said in the subthread, I think the J/C scenes are intended to reiterate that these are two really fucked up, conflicted people with a (clearly) fucked up relationship that nevertheless is still a core motivator for their character's respective fucked up actions in the story. I didn't get the feeling they were presented to titillate.

[cemaphonic]

130. I don't think that's really accurate

There are a few rapes in the books that are 10x more hideously gruesome than anything in the show. The books are merely a successful fantasy series, instead of a massive media and pop culture juggernaut, so they get less scrutiny.

[bettyellen]

131. I don't think it was that they were "gruesome" as much as gratuitous?

If that makes more sense.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Hey... I'm sure all the controversy around the show will depress the veiwership numbers

...isn't that what always happens?

[rickford66]

85. What if Columbus' ships sunk with all hands ?

What if Japan or China made a foothold on the west coast in 1492 ?
What if there was no gold rush ?
What if the atomic bombs never worked ?
What if Lincoln went to the head just before JWB was to shoot him ?
What if the Earth's axis wasn't tilted ?
What if ice didn't expand as it froze ?
Wow !! Thus is fun.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. What if John Lennon was in Nickelback, instead of the Beatles?

[Warren DeMontague]

92. My humble suggestion would be for folks to wait and see.

They're envisioning it as some sort of "slavery apologia paradise" alternate universe. For all we know it will make powerful moral arguments that are applicable to our current time and place.

At least, it's silly to make the sorts of assumptions this article does.

[brettdale]

95. Until it airs

I dont think people can judge. I didnt remember a huge fuss with the
show that was set in a world where Germany won ww2.

Was that done well? I never watched it.

[ismnotwasm]

98. The article is good at outlining why It's a bad idea

Under Trump’s America, the Confederacy is not so far removed from reality that it demands a depiction under the guise of an alternate timeline. Not only are monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers still depicted throughout some states in America but the removal of Robert E. Lee’s statue caused protests by the Ku Klux Klan in Charlottesville, Va. The Confederate flags and iconography became a popular greeting at Trump rallies. Every former Confederate state bar Virginia voted for Trump, there is a direct link between the Confederacy, white supremacy and the current Administration.

In other words, at the very best it is insensitive, at worst tied into the racist white dudebro pushback that seems to be infesting a lot areas of media.

I won't watch it because while I don't watch much TV, I can't abide GOT--It was also the first high fantasy book series in my life I was unable to get through back when it came out. (To be fair, Jordens "Wheel of Time" series was another one--fifth book and I'm over it) Being compared to GOT does not speak well of potential story lines especially given the topic matter.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. It's on HBO and it's being produced by Benioff and Weiss

so it is no doubt inevitable that GoT would enter the conversation.

But I think it's premature to make assumptions about the messaging in the storyline. The article makes a whole bunch of assumptions about material that isn't out there yet.

[Retrograde]

105. Meanwhile, Whitehead's The Underground Railroad

a book with a similar premise, is shortlisted for the Man Booker award, one of the more prestigious awards for literature written in English.

The HBO series could be decent, but given what Benioff and Weiss have done with the most recent seasons of Game of Thrones I'm not holding my breath. HBO also has a tendency to take a decent concept and throw in gratuitous violence and (mostly female) nudity just because they can.

[mountain grammy]

124. Wonderful book..

I read it last month..deserves every award it wins.

[mikehiggins]

114. This is a bad idea and IMHO doomed to quick and messy failure.

Alternate universe fantasies are a staple of lots of genres (the Three Musketeers really didn't happen, for example) but, frankly, the Confederacy sucked even without the dependency on slavery.

As if that in itself wasn't enough to put that whole operation beyond the pale I could think of a million different topics that might work better as an HBO or Showtime or Cinemax series, all with hot nudity and so on. I shudder to think of how these wonderkids might use the same POV in this new thing.

[NobodyHere]

123. Given the discussions this show has already caused

It's probably going to be a success. Remember that HBO cares about buzz almost as much as it cares about ratings. That's one reason why Girls lasted as long as it did.