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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMUELLER IMPANELS GRAND JURY
https://www.wsj.com/articles/special-counsel-mueller-impanels-washington-grand-jury-in-russia-probe-1501788287?mod=e2twusSpecial Counsel Robert Mueller has impaneled a grand jury in Washington to investigate Russias interference in the 2016 elections, a sign that his inquiry is growing in intensity and entering a new phase, according to two people familiar with the matter.
The grand jury, which began its work in recent weeks, is a sign that Mr. Muellers inquiry is ramping up and that it will likely continue for months. Mr. Mueller is investigating Russias efforts to influence the 2016 election and whether President Donald Trumps campaign or associates colluded with the Kremlin as part of that effort.
A spokesman for Mr. Mueller, Joshua Stueve, declined to comment. Moscow has denied seeking to influence the election, and Mr. Trump has vigorously disputed allegations of collusion. The president has called Mr. Muellers inquiry a witch hunt.
Ty Cobb, special counsel to the president, said he wasnt aware that Mr. Mueller had started using a new grand jury. Grand jury matters are typically secret, Mr. Cobb said. The White House favors anything that accelerates the conclusion of his work fairly. The White House is committed to fully cooperating with Mr. Mueller.
.......
Holy Shit balls....Did Mueller do this because Trump was going to fire him today..is that what Trump was going to announce later?
drray23
(7,637 posts)if he is empaneling a grand jury, this means he is thinking that he is very close or already has enough material to ask for indictments.
sunonmars
(8,656 posts)drray23
(7,637 posts)and Mueller is waiting to release all of them at once.
It's also insurance that Trump cannot fire him, as obstruction is the easiest, quickest charge to get an indictment on.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Yaaaaasssssss!!!!
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Witnesses already interviewed and selected for the panel, etc., etc.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)oldmanandthesea
(39 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,487 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,538 posts)I usually see the egg or a small board one.
Mrs. Overall
(6,839 posts)sunonmars
(8,656 posts)TexasTowelie
(112,451 posts)Since firing Mueller would accelerate the conclusion of his work shouldn't we also conclude that the White House sees firing Mueller is an effective outcome?
MelissaB
(16,420 posts)The "winding down" sounds quite significant.
sunonmars
(8,656 posts)Native
(5,943 posts)From the article:
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,199 posts)"Uh-oh."
nolabear
(41,991 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)MiddleClass
(888 posts)NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)Mueller simply doesn't leak, and he has the stature to make sure his team doesn't either.
This is getting good! I'm stocking up:
Gothmog
(145,618 posts)SaschaHM
(2,897 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 3, 2017, 07:57 PM - Edit history (1)
It's probably Defcon 1 (Thanks) at the WH now.
GallopingGhost
(2,404 posts)Five is least severe. I can only imagine how Twitler is reacting to this piece of news.
sarge43
(28,945 posts)or shit just hit the fan.
WhollyHeretic
(4,074 posts)C_U_L8R
(45,021 posts)and someone may be an un-indicted co-conspirator.
Seems its getting too late to fire Mueller.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)maryellen99
(3,789 posts)Duppers
(28,127 posts)And not follow that order - an order which would end in destroying S.K. and parts of Japan. Remember there are ~84,000 Americans stationed in SK and Japan.
Also China wouldn't just sit there. Too dangerous a scenario. The military knows this man is nuts. If they chose ignore his transgender order, I think they'd ignore a call for nuclear war.
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If the Secretary of Defense does not concur, the president can fire him and replace him until one does say 'concur'.
Duppers
(28,127 posts)A special emergency session in that case.
Often repeated here: this man is too incompetent, insane, and dangerous to hold the highest office in the country.
Massacure
(7,526 posts)They could impeach him, but I doubt they could convene 218 yay votes in the House, 51 yay votes in the Senate, and the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court before the nukes left their silos.
The more likely scenario would be:
1) Trump orders the nuclear strike
2) James Mattis says no.
3) Trump fires Mattis and Patrick Shanahan takes over as he is Deputy Secretary of Defense.
4) Mattis calls Mike Pence
5) Mike Pence tries to convince eight of the 15 cabinet members to invoke the 25th amendment and declare Trump unfit for office
6) Pence and the eight cabinet members send a message to the Speaker of the House (Paul Ryan) and Senate President Pro Tempore (Orrin Hatch) that Pence is Acting-President of the United States.
Wednesdays
(17,412 posts)They would need 67 votes in the Senate to convict Rump. But if anything, that bolsters your point.
Edit: let's hope that in your scenario, steps 4, 5, and 6 happen very quickly...like within minutes, if not seconds.
Duppers
(28,127 posts)Another person also enlightened me.
Let's hope this would happen.
Massacure
(7,526 posts)The 25th can only by invoked by the Vice President in addition to eight of the 15 cabinet members.
If President issues an order for a nuclear strike, the National Command Authority would contact the Secretary of Defense to validate the order. Legally, the Secretary of Defense is only supposed to be able to authenticate the validity of the order; he or she cannot veto it. If James Mattis refused to validate a nuclear strike order from Trump, things would get interesting to say the least.
Trump could fire Mattis and order Patrick Shanahan (the Deputy Secretary of Defense) to validate the order. If Shanahan refused, Trump could fire him and order the next person in line to validate the order.
Mattis would probably call Mike Pence, and Pence could then try to convince eight cabinet members to recognize him as acting president. If Pence got the support of eight cabinet members, he would then have to inform the Speaker of the House and the Senate President Pro Tempore of such. I'm not sure how the military chain of command would be notified though.
Duppers
(28,127 posts)I should have looked this up. My 2nd thought was that it would take a congressional act.
Thank you for enlightening me.
Pence is also nuts but do you think that he would start a nuclear war with North Korea? If he took the sane route, could he get 8 cabinet members to agree?
progressoid
(49,999 posts)Glimmer of Hope
(5,823 posts)SunSeeker
(51,725 posts)Nailzberg
(4,610 posts)berksdem
(595 posts)awwww, come on! we could be in a nuclear war by then! Bring this F-er down quickly please!
Sorry folks, just being impatient.
Deb
(3,742 posts)Days like this you laugh tears. Hang in there, the good guys are gonna win this!
Juliusseizure
(562 posts)since Trump is clueless and crazy, and I don't think Trump would digress from advice, or be allowed to.
Which is good in his case, with Mattis and Kelly in there. Though JFK would have bombed Cuba and started WWIII if it was up to his generals.
It just goes to show how ignorant, self-centered and CHILDLIKE Trump supporters are - exclusively focused on race - by allowing this idiot in there.
and despite just coming back from deployment, be ready to deploy was the message when trump started squatting in the White House. Officers are very worried what he might do.
Just look at his tweet the other day when trump said he had a big announcement for the military. Then took almost 10 minutes to tweet the announcement. The bigwigs thought he was going to announce bombing NK. He then announced his ban on transgender members, which the military promptly said they weren't going to change policy.
Deb
(3,742 posts)My husband worked in the Titan silos and we had some very anxious times but never anything like this. My son is currently deployed to Japan, everyone here and there is nervous, a very insecure time for us all.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)drray23
(7,637 posts)prosecutors can present facts to the grand jury. If they return an indictment, the prosecutor can then proceed directly to trial.
mobeau69
(11,156 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Reason 1- he has enough evidence for an indictment and wants one.
Reason 2- he doesn't have enough evidence or it's a close call and he wants a grand jury to make the call to not move forward based on what they have instead of doing it himself so as to not look like he did it or so he doesn't take the heat for nothing coming from his investigation by saying "I have it all to the grand jury, it was their call not mine."
Native
(5,943 posts)Juliusseizure
(562 posts)additional attorneys? Asking for a friend.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)I don't think it's likely that option 2 is on the table, but like I said you never know and should be aware of all possibilities and not read this to mean anything for sure.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)And Ecuador would likely turn him over for that one.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)Why in God's name do Trump and Assange and these fools take straight to Twitter to feign innocence when their guilt will soon be revealed? What is the upside? A few more days of pretend bravado?
STFU.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Trump will read this and think it really happened.
Trump Says Mueller Just Called Him and Said Hes the Most Innocent Person Ever
By Andy Borowitz - http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/trump-says-mueller-just-called-him-and-said-hes-the-most-innocent-person-ever
It was the middle of the afternoon, and he just picked up the phone to say how innocent I was, Trump said. He said I was the most innocent person hed ever come across, and maybe in history.
He said he had been over all of the evidence and that he and his staff would spend hours just looking at each other in amazement at about how unbelievably innocent I was, he said.
Trump said that he asked Mueller why, in his opinion, the media had reported so many stories about his campaign colluding with Russians. Bob said to me, Are you talking about the failing New York Times and CNN? Trump reported. They have been very unfair to you. They are bad (or sick) people. Sad! Thats what Bob said to me. ......
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)No collusion, Mueller is past that, focusing on finances. And that a Mueller has crossed a red line, whatever that is.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,632 posts)all of the documentation, the growing staff and their work, the growing list of spacial attorneys, along with the new Grand Jury people and their staff and the area is larger and it makes sense as far as distance, bringing more witnesses/ people in to interview, etc.
They are saying that Mueller is nearing the fine tuning portion of the investigation and this will take a while but he knows what and who he needs to bring it all together completely and thoroughly from all angles.
MiddleClass
(888 posts)This is heating up, I knew something was going on
Eliot Rosewater
(31,121 posts)UCmeNdc
(9,601 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,121 posts)my juries are so great
.. so great they're called grand
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)that Ty Cobb might be the all-time biggest asshole in the history of the sport!
MiddleClass
(888 posts)Sophiegirl
(2,338 posts)No lie.
47of74
(18,470 posts)Botany
(70,589 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)ailsagirl
(22,899 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,632 posts)the name change implies the severity. This may throw the fake prez into an even bigger basket case. Wonder what he'll say at his pep rally (who pays for those by the way?).
adigal
(7,581 posts)Then Pence pardons him.
He will forget, as usual, about NY's Atty General who is also on the hunt, and Pence can't pardon state crimes.
With his corrupt business history, Trump should NEVER HAVE run for any office, even dogcatcher.
Native
(5,943 posts)ok, never mind. Ego, check. Self-delusional, check. Greedy, check. Stupid, check.
adigal
(7,581 posts)world wide wally
(21,755 posts)SDJay
(1,089 posts)part of it, in my opinion. Let's not forget, though, that Russia has been grooming this clown for years, and I think this is all part of a 'creative' way for Dump to 'pay back' the hundreds of millions of dollars the deadbeat will never otherwise pay back to Russian creditors.
Putin, aside from whatever other kompromat he has, literally owns his ass. He ran because he was told to run.
Juliusseizure
(562 posts)I'd get out immediately.
Native
(5,943 posts)mcar
(42,376 posts)are never responsible for their behavior. The way he lies about the littlest things, and does it so badly, shows the ego and delusion.
Oh, I want them all to go down!
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)He should be subject to the same election irregularities applied to Trump (of course, Ryan is just as unappealing, Hatch not so good, either). It infuriates me that Trump is only in due to the Electoral College, which was allegedly in place to stop the very kind of candidate Trump was well-known to be. After the Democrats lost despite winning the popular vote in 2000, nothing but a little grumbling occurred. Supposedly the Bush people were ready for an all-out fight if the popular/electoral votes had gone the other way. Trump's followers would be up for bloodshed if the rightful winner were installed in the office now. What a mess! I put a lot of it on the Democrats, who did nothing about the Electoral College after 2000.
Response to adigal (Reply #42)
maddiemom This message was self-deleted by its author.
safeinOhio
(32,727 posts)G. Ford's pardon of Nixon was the end of his career.
humbled_opinion
(4,423 posts)His ego wouldn't allow it check him out tonight in WV with massive crowds of adoring fans, he eats that shit up. Any crime he could get impeached but I doubt the Repub house would even consider it, of course it becomes the dominate campaign issue for 2018 our side saying hold him accountable elect us, but that comes with risk and if in fact we win the House we can certainly impeach him but again he won't resign and the Senate would require 2/3 to remove and sorry but that simply won't happen. I believe his minions are already beginning a push to get a special counsel to investigate the leaks, the Clinton campaign, and the previous administration unmasking, they do this to muddy the waters and point fingers, political tactic may backfire on them.
WinstonSmith4740
(3,059 posts)Mueller wouldn't have impaneled this grand jury if he didn't have some serious shit. Trump will walk before he lets his financial affairs be made public. Personally, I think it's because he just isn't as wealthy as he claims to be, or possibly at all, and that would destroy his whole "mystique/brand". He just thought he could bully everyone to get his own way, just like he did in business. I'm just to the point that I don't care if he, his evil spawn, or anyone else involved in this national nightmare ever do any time. I mean, I'd love to see them in orange jumpsuits, but that ain't gonna happen. I just want these assholes OUT of power. I want power wrenched out of their hands, and the whole cabal sent packing. Let him live with the knowledge he was the most hated President in history. Just get them out. Maybe Putin will take them in.
adigal
(7,581 posts)Or go to a show, or an event, or anywhere, cause we will give them the Bronx cheer.
trof
(54,256 posts)Not that I'd be biased or anything.
Not that I would be biased either.
Juliusseizure
(562 posts)Seriously, that would be a risk, so assuming genuine intent here is to get an indictment, Mueller must think he has a strong enough case to persuade a member of the "silent" majority.
ailsagirl
(22,899 posts)Completely unbiased.
Enoki33
(1,588 posts)frustration and the fear beginning to take control. He is going to react in angry and unstable ways.
safeinOhio
(32,727 posts)jail cell a dump
Hieronymus
(6,039 posts)Mueller is the Right's worst nightmare.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Seems like Mueller sees what he thinks is criminal conduct.
MiddleClass
(888 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 4, 2017, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)
But somebody on MTP told Chuck, investigations, use whatever grand jury is already impaneled to subpoena documents. What one reason you would impanel your own would be ongoing multiple involved witnesses, subpoenas, indictments
Hopefully a legal whiz could help us out on this
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I could be wrong on my earlier view, but that is all that I have seen such juries do.
More_Cowbell
(2,191 posts)I think the new D.C. grand jury is for crimes committed there, in the District (including, of course, the White House). I think the F.B.I. *is* using the already-existing grand jury in the Eastern District of Virginia for security-related crimes.
MiddleClass
(888 posts)We can only hope our assumptions turn into reality. But right now it is wishful thinking
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)FakeNoose
(32,777 posts)This is not my area of expertise and I don't know Washington DC courts either.
Do they select somebody who has experience in high level politics/behavior (I hope)?
This could all backfire if the wrong/too conservative judge gets assigned to this hearing.
We don't want Judge Ito either.
Just sayin'
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Ask an Attorney. There are a few on DU. The only Grand Juries that I know of indict people, but I live in the South.
FakeNoose
(32,777 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)LiberalLovinLug
(14,176 posts)And thus no charges are recommended?
And every GOP member backs up the other one, like cops?
I am worried that IF that were to happen, Trump and the GOP would use that, as BushCo. did with Dan Rather's blunder, as a way to whitewash everything else they have been doing. They can then crow loudly how this PROVES that there was, not collusion and malfeasance with Republicans, but collusion and conspiracy with Democrats and the "fake news media". (To bring down a great man) His approval will climb back up for those hopeful moderate Republicans and independents.
The GOP will feel like they have a whole new mandate to get even bolder in regards to other issues like net neutrality, and Social Security.
I suspect even the MSM networks will back off, maybe even apologize. And everything ELSE will be forgiven. His crude behavior, his lying, his tarnished reputation as a great businessman etc. Dropping out of the Paris accord. All his bone-head appointments with inexperienced true believers whose only credential Trump uses is their previous disdain for the department they now oversee.
Obviously this is the worst case scenerio. But we have to be prepared for it. And to not just give up the resistance, but remember that he still won unfairly using dark laundered money, Crosscheck, gerrymandering, and fake news about Hillary. But it will be so difficult to get the train back on the tracks and get any traction again.
Native
(5,943 posts)Cosmocat
(14,574 posts)Was pretty much a big nothing ...
I want to think this is happening, there is too much there.
But, until it does ...
LiberalLovinLug
(14,176 posts)I'm just sayin
flibbitygiblets
(7,220 posts)and we also don't know what Flynn has spilled. Someone's going down, probably at least Jr., Manafort and Flynn, if not Jared too. And at least one of them will flip for reduced sentence.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"This Guy!"
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)over rumors or maybes.
More_Cowbell
(2,191 posts)When he fired Comey for the Russia investigation. Obstruction of justice was the first article of impeachment against Nixon, I think.
New York's AG will get him on financial crimes, if nothing else. It won't be as good as finding him guilty of collysion or treason, but he'll still forfeit everything and I can live with that.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,176 posts)Hasn't he been found guilty in other financial crimes? His university fraud case comes to mind.
Just doesn't have the same bite as collusion with a foreign government to usurp democracy.
If its soley financial, he will shrug his shoulders and say he made a mistake, but will pay any restitution. But what also would happen is that his deplorables would be all "see see you f'in libtards, YOU WERE WRONG! Just some business faux pas, and like he said, trying to find ways to not have to pay the blood sucking go'mint of your earnings is the American way!
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)I'm not sure how he could be found totally innocent of all charges.
Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)go on even when and if Mueller is fired?
Cognitive_Resonance
(1,546 posts)kentuck
(111,110 posts)And they will have to think twice before they lie to a grand jury.
mucifer
(23,570 posts)that would really suck.
JHan
(10,173 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)GopherGal
(2,010 posts)If Mueller's strategy is to use indictments and plea bargains to work his way up, wouldn't this be a step he'd take?
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)This is a tried and true play to get confessions.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Lord knows not a one of 'em can tell the time of day without lying. Their arrogance will walk into this thinking they are the smartest guys in the room and try to BS their way through it.
MrPurple
(985 posts)In a situation where the counsel has evidence Trump doesn't think they have (like the stained dress, but something that is actually a crime). Film the hearing like they did Clinton with a camera with a tight close up on his face with the people asking the questions just appearing on the recording as disembodied voices.
If Trump was on camera for 20 minutes, there would be 40 lies.
aikoaiko
(34,184 posts)Even if they. And get Trump, putting one of his family members in fed prison would destroy him.
briv1016
(1,570 posts)machoneman
(4,011 posts)Wow, oh wow! Great news indeed!
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/politics/mueller-grand-jury/index.html
gristy
(10,667 posts)That's what we have here. Hoowee!
Scruffy1
(3,257 posts)By going through the Grand Jury process you increase the right of discovery, which is very important in looking at financial transactions like money laundering and banking in generak. They are following the money. Of course you need a case to present to the grand jury, but I'm not holding my breath. this could take a long time as it's a very complex web of corruption involving top people who have the means to fight back.
MrPurple
(985 posts)sunonmars
(8,656 posts)himself of course, i have no doubt.
SunSeeker
(51,725 posts)PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)Treason.
I can't tell you how many times Dems, liberals, progressives or whatever you want to call us have been accused by the other side of hating this country, but this is beyond that.
What the Republican party has done, beginning on the night of Obama's inauguration, when they decided to not help govern this nation, but instead obstruct everything Obama and the Dems tried to get done. To my mind that was sedition at the least.
But when they colluded with a hostile foreign power to win an election, that is treason pure and simple. All our security guys that I've heard quoted or interviewed are saying how serious this is because it was not only hacking God knows how many voting machines and election rolls, but it was also a sophisticated psychological operation designed to sway voters in swing states and key communities in those states by planting propaganda.
This is FUCKING TREASON. It is ugly. It is disgusting. It is foul. And it MUST NOT STAND.
bucolic_frolic
(43,308 posts)they know this can't be allowed to drag on even as long as Nixon and Watergate
We have not a swamp but a festering pustule that must be pricked at its peak