Calling people you disagree with "stupid" is stupid.

[KurtNYC]

It usually means that one is too lazy or too myopic to find the real reasons for the disagreement which in turn dooms any progress or productive engagement.

There are real reasons why the MSM and politicians do and say what they do -- could be money, could be strategy, could be lots of things but seldom is it because "they are stupid." I cringe when I hear someone say that to win a political goal "we need to educate the public" because it embodies this flawed idea that anyone who disagrees with you knows less than you do about what THEIR self interests are.

People didn't organize and steal the election in Ohio in 2004 by being stupid. Scott Walker didn't play people against each other in Wisconsin by being stupid. Fox News doesn't frame issues, pump the propaganda and steer political discourse by being stupid. The MSM doesn't say stupid stuff because THEY are stupid. They say it to make US stupid.

The first rule of battle is "Know your enemy" -- know what their strengths are and know what their weaknesses are. To do otherwise is just stupid.

[randome]

1. Nice rant.

I disagree with you about the need to educate the public. The more public we make our views, the better.

But you're right it's become a reflexive response to paint the other side as 'stupid' in too many situations. The same goes for thinking Republicans are 'evil'.

Once we start labeling the other side as 'stupid' or 'evil', we end up doing nothing substantive because then the dispute is ended. It's no longer a dispute, it's a 'I know you are but what am I?' irrelevancy.

[unblock]

2. what a stupid post!

it's not of course, just couldn't resist the joke

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. This post is

lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind and is
characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness which
tediously dull, especially due to lack of meaning or sense which makes it annoying, irritating and troublesome

[unblock]

8. yeah and so's your mother

note that i did not call her stupid.

/kidding!

ah, so much snark material in this thread, i love it!

[Ichingcarpenter]

10. LOL... Actually she been dead thus brain dead for years

I wonder if she watches Fox in heaven.... nevermind
she was a Buddhist at the end..

[Warren Stupidity]

3. Derp is as Derp does.

[lunatica]

5. I think that no matter how cleverly you gut and destroy the country

it's still a very stupid thing to do.

But that's just me.

[unblock]

6. so just to clarify, "foxnews is stupid" is not ok, but "foxnews viewers are stupid" IS ok?

just trying to get the rules straight

boy am i feeing snarky this morning

[Ichingcarpenter]

7. See post#4

it explains fox viewers

[bowens43]

9. There is no productive engagement with the stupid.

The cases you listed are not cases of people being stupid but make no mistake, stupid exists. I'm surrounded by it here in North Carolina.

[Fumesucker]

11. You are conflating stupidity and ignorance..

Lots of not-stupid people are ignorant about politics, it takes a great deal of effort to begin to pierce the veil of misinformation put up by the M$M, Fox News, talk radio and so on and a lot of people just don't have either the interest or the time to find out what they're being told is a tissue of lies..

Not to mention that it takes a certain sort of skeptical outsider type personality to even begin asking the hard questions in the first place, I know lots of people who are smarter than I am but far less skeptical of authority so it never occurs to them to seriously apply their intelligence to what they're being told.

[Cary]

12. Except there is a lot of current research that logic and reason don't faze "conservatives"

They are like addicts. Actually they are addicts if you ask me. You don't try to reason with an addict. You also should not be their enabler. You don't help anyone by pretending that they're something else--you call an addict an addict, you reject them and their addiction, and you throw them out on their ass. They have to hit bottom, at which point they either decide they will get better or they will die.

With "conservatives" they are addicted to their stupid, yes stupid, Ayn Rand ideology. Any ideology that glorifies the worst aspects of human nature is stupid. I'm sorry but I'm not going to be in denial over this. I have studied Rand and other radical capitalist ideologies and for the most part these ideologies are stupid. There is no legitimate rationale for their mental masturbation. The empirical evidence shows that wherever they go it ends in disaster. They lie and they have no shame. Rand modeled her fictional hero on a serial killer, a psychopath.

Denial is part of their disease. I call them stupid and evil not to denigrate them. I call them stupid and evil because I care and because I am such a great guy.

[HereSince1628]

13. "I call them stupid...because I care and because I am such a great guy" You hit that on the head.

[Cary]

19. That is the point

Straight drive every time.

[KurtNYC]

14. It may be selfish to want your taxes reduced but it isn't stupid.

To use prejudice to pay your employees less, to pit different groups against each other, to bankrupt the government so you can privatize the most profitable parts of it, to own MSM so you can steer political discourse -- all may be selfish and evil but they aren't stupid.

[Cary]

21. Except it is stupid when the reality is that...

you are middle class amd your services are cut and you are really getting an overall tax increase.

Sure the transfer of wealth has been marvelous for the top 2% or so. Did you know that something like 40% of us think we are in the top 10%?

And you think they aren't stupid?

No one ever went broke under estimating the intelligence of the American people.

[KurtNYC]

29. But WANTING to pay less is not stupid, especially if services are cut.

Less than 21% of Americans identify themselves as Republicans.

[Cary]

37. 50% of Americans

Have an IQ under 100.

[RagAss]

41. BINGO !!! THIS THREAD IS OVER !

[jeff47]

28. The stupid part is they aren't getting their taxes reduced

Those tea partiers aren't making more than $250k. They're lining up to have other people's taxes reduced, so that they can receive worse services.

That's stupid.

[Gman]

15. What if they're stupid?

[Iggo]

16. Calling stupid people stupid is a-okay, though.

[reformist2]

17. Find out what is *really* driving their vote, and discuss that instead.

You know that 9 times out of 10, it will be abortion, gay rights, minorites, welfare or some other "social" issue. Get them to admit that they are essentially single-issue voters, in the hopes that someday they will be embarrassed into reconsidering how they think.

[slackmaster]

18. It's certainly not an effective tactic for persuading people to change their minds

[we can do it]

20. Unless they are stupid and fall for the propganda and lies...

the followers of the rw who vote against their own best interests are STUPID.

[Mutiny In Heaven]

22. Some people ARE stupid

But a lot are just conned by mendacious politicians (& their lackeys) and a passive, limp, shameful news media which reports on the most egregious acts as standard fare; "they're all the same, don't you know?".

[AngryAmish]

23. I started giving a long retort to someone downthread who disagrees with you

Then I gave up. It is easier for people just to believe that someone in an outgroup is stupid, dangerous or somehow sub-human.

The point you are making won't be understood by most people around here.

[bluedigger]

24. Cause we're stupid...

Finished it for you.

[AngryAmish]

25. Well done. Naw, it is because we are human.

The way our brains are made.

[bluedigger]

31. Pretty much.

Anybody who doesn't understand something that is obvious to one's self must be stupid. What other explanation could there be?

[Cary]

26. Yes Dinsdale was a nice man

He nailed my head to the coffee table several times, but he was a nice man.

Wake up! These people lied us into a war and still insist, to this day, that there were WMD and that Saddam was connected to al Qaeda. They lied about John Kerry's military service. They are Birtners and Tenthers. They outed a non-official cover CIA agent. They tortired and worked hard to say that torture isn't torture. They undermined our democracy with Citizen's United. They are trying to kill Social Security. They deny climate science and evolution and on and on.

But hey tbey're not really stupid and evil?

You are right. I don't understand this "hey they are not really so bad" self righteous thing you wallow in.

Yes they are stupid. Yes they are evil.

[KurtNYC]

33. Forrest Gump is stupid

but people don't see his character as evil. Evil requires planning and understanding of cause and effect.

[Cary]

40. Is Forrest Gump a Birther or a Tenther?

How about a white supremacist? Anti-Semite? Or is he an anti-gay closeted homosexual like Larry Craig?

[A Simple Game]

60. If you don't think you're capable of converting them to your ideals,

it is easier to just call them names.

See a lot of that on DU and other political web sites. Debate is a lost art.

[Overseas]

27. Crooks and Liars would be more accurate.

Lots of devious liars and people well paid to repeat those lies without questioning them.

And I'm glad Crooks and Liars is still exposing them: http://crooksandliars.com/

[ananda]

30. Sometimes it really is because they are stoopid.

But often it's just crass greed, powermongering, or mind manipulation.

[coalition_unwilling]

32. 70% of Americans believe that angels

actually exist. Q.E.D.

[KurtNYC]

34. An aside: that percentage drops with age

"According to a 1988 Gallup poll, 50% of the U. S. people, age 18-49, believe in angels. The percent of believers in angels drops to 36% for individuals over 50 years old. The poll also reflected that 74% of teenagers believe in the existence of angels. "

http://www.lutz-sanfilippo.com/library/general/lsfangelsexist.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. it dropped with age 24 years ago; maybe not now

Poll from within the last year:

Angels don't just sing at Christmastime. For most Americans, they're a year-round presence. A new Associated Press-GfK poll shows that 77 percent of adults believe these ethereal beings are real.
...
Beyond the religious gap, women are more likely than men to believe angels are real, and those over 30 are more apt than younger adults to think they exist.

The finding mirrors a 2006 AP-AOL poll, which found 81 percent believed in angels.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57347634/poll-nearly-8-in-10-americans-believe-in-angels/

Maybe it's baby boomers who are gullible?

[KurtNYC]

44. It may be that the pop definition of "angel" has gotten less strict. More spiritual and less

religious. If angel can mean: Muse, spirit, the super-conscious, intuition, etc. and the biblical definition then that may explain the uptick.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. 'Pop' definition?

Are you trying to say there's a serious definition? That it's not all the same load of superstitious twaddle that it's been for thousands of years?

[KurtNYC]

54. There is a religious definition and what might be called a spiritual definition.

An orthodox definition versus a more broad one. Thanks for helping me to clarify that.

[FrodosPet]

38. Angels DO exist!

They just aren't supernatural beings with wings and halos, strumming harps and blowing trumpets.

They are flesh and blood mortal human beings who care for others more than most people do.

We need A LOT more angels in the world.

[coalition_unwilling]

39. Bravo! You got me! :) --n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. "The MSM doesn't say stupid stuff because THEY are stupid. They say it to make US stupid"

How can I characterise that? 'Stu...' - no - 'paranoid'. The mainstream media is not, on the whole, trying to 'make us stupid'. They do say stupid things, and that can be for a variety of reasons - to stir up controversy and increase ratings, to 'give equal times to both sides' when one side is, objectively, wrong or lying, or through laziness - or genuine stupidity (they use underqualified reporters, especially these days). But, with the possible exception of the far right ideologues like Fox News or the Washington Times, they are not doing it "to make US stupid". Trust me, the world, as a whole, is not out to get you.

[RZM]

43. Spot on

I've always felt that conspiracy theories like that are rooted in narcissism and an inflated sense of self-importance, as if one's views are so important that dark forces MUST be conspiring to keep them down.

In reality, most people and their opinions don't matter much to anybody else. It's not that they're out to get you, it's that you're not nearly important enough to be noticed in the first place.

Portraying your own views as the target of a vast conspiracy is often just a complicated way of trying to reassure yourself that you actually matter.

[KurtNYC]

46. Exhibit F: the internal Fox News memos

Say "Government"

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-12-09/entertainment/29970487_1_public-option-government-option-government-run-health

"Keep Global warming a debate"

http://observer.com/2010/12/leaked-fox-news-memo-keep-global-warming-a-debate/

And from 2004:
http://wonkette.com/17613/fox-news-memos-the-whole-batch

The talking heads don't get to say anything they want to. Just ask Dan Rather. If you think CNN is immune to this bubble of bullshit thing then I would direct your attention to the Swift Boat series they did to Kerry. CNN knew those guys were lying and word parsing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Your OP specifically separated Fox News from the MSM

So I don't think you can point to them to represent the MSM as a whole. I would say that CNN wasn't trying to make you more stupid with their broadcasts on 'swift boats'. They were adhering to the "we must show both sides" nonsense. Which actually was them being stupid.

[KurtNYC]

51. My OP does not separate FNC from the MSM

It mentions them as a clear example of what the others do also. CBS fired Dan Rather for using forged evidence. NBC sold the whole Iraq war. CNN gave a platform for the swift boaters to word parse with crap like "I was on that boat and I never saw John Kerry rescue anyone." CNN knew it was a hit job and they knew the guy was on the same boat MONTHS later after Kerry was gone. They all know what they are doing or they wouldn't be as effective at it.

[RZM]

42. Pretty much. So is calling them 'crazy'

Which you see just as much. That's even worse, IMO. The implication that roughly half the country is mentally ill is both stupid AND crazy. But mainly just stupid.

And you're spot on mentioning laziness in the first sentence. That's what this boils down to. Rather than taking the time and energy to actually learn something, many simply dismiss those who don't agree with a wave of the hand and a lame insult.

The irony is that many of the same people who claim that the right is 'anti-intellectual' can't be bothered to perform even the m most rudimentary intellectual inquiry on that very subject.

[Cary]

45. I find it truly odd that posters at DU are so worried about "conservatives" being called stupid ...

...and crazy and so intent upon calling their fellow liberals stupid and crazy just because their fellow liberals regard the extreme right wingnuts as stupid and crazy.

Unbelievable, actually.

I don't come here to talk nice about "conservatives" and knowing them as well as I do they are laughing their asses off at this nonsense and they are not appreciating it at all. They view this crap as "Liberal" weakness.

There is a grain of truth to that.

[KurtNYC]

49. In sales, they teach you to discover the true objection to the sale

so that you can overcome it. I think this is something similar.

This isn't a Left / Right thing. It is about avoiding the tendency to give credence to your own ad hominem attacks and coming to believe that name calling is good substitute for an effective argument.

[Cary]

50. In sales you have three possible answers:

1. Yes, obviously a good answer;

2. No, and that's a good answer because you thank the person, walk away, and you're that much closer to your next yes; and

3. Maybe, which is a rotten answer because that person is going to use all of your time and never buy from you anyway.

I recite this to illustrate how wrong your sales analogy is. You're assuming that you are going to sell the people who answer no, who in this instance are "conservatives". By "conservatives" I am referring to contemporary radicals who have hijacked the term conservative, but really are drunk on their Ayn Rand fixation.

These people are not going to be sold Kurt and it is utterly irrational for you to believe you can reason with a sociopath. Their ideology is hard core, a priori thinking. In other words they are not swayed by empirical evidence. Their ideology is correct and even better it is reduced to just a few bumper sticker slogans. The rich are great. The poor cause all of our problems. Government is always wrong. Helping others is evil and only greed is good. Blah blah and blah blah. No Kurt, you don't "sell" sociopaths. There is no known cure for sociopaths. And yes they can be quite charming but their charm is ruse.

The only way to deal with them is cut them out like the cancer that they are.

[KurtNYC]

61. Other answers: 4. too expensive 5. I don't need one right now 6. not my size

and many others. There a different kinds of "no" and most of these can be overcome but only if you get more detail on the "no."

All analogies are flawed but let me try a slightly more direct angle -- Person A likes chocolate ice cream. Person B likes vanilla. Person A says "if you prefer vanilla to chocolate you are just stupid." Person A is wrong.

[Cary]

63. I don't know where you got your sales training from but I don't really have a whole lot of respect

for what you're bringing here.

It is my experience that it's a lot of extra work to try to sell people things they don't want. your 4, 5 and 6 are maybes. I know that I can approach 4 people and 1 out of 4 will say yes. Then 1 out of 4 of those will end up actually engaging me. I actually don't want to overcome objections because if I have to do that then half of the time those people will find reasons to be dissatisfied with my services just so they can vindicate their initial trepidation. They will be more expensive, more high maintenance. I would rather, much rather that they say no. If you don't completely trust me within a few seconds then I don't want you as a client.

And I have found too that the absolute best business decision I can make is to turn down a flaky prospective client.

[loyalsister]

77. I agree

Equating people with whom there are extreme disagreements is a stereotype that demonizes people who have real mental illnesses. What does it say about people who are mentally ill if they are equated with people who want to do things that they truly may not see as harmful?
There is a long history of that. Slaves who ran away were considered mentally ill. I think it's very unfortunate to see it coming from our side.

If we diminish the ideas as simply stupid, there is no room for engagement or discussion. For someone to call someone stupid and take their marbles and going home is lazy.

[Warpy]

52. When people are willfully ignorant and spiteful toward those who disagree

that adds up to stupidity.

Ignorance can be cured. Willful ignorance generally can't.

[Ian David]

53. Thanks, Hitler.

I'm kidding.

[unblock]

55. well then, does calling people you AGREE with "stupid" sound smarter to you?

aha, suddenly reserving the "stupid" call for the people you DISagree with doesn't sound so stupid, does it!

[Cary]

56. So, Kurt, what do you make of Dwight D. Eisenhower when he said:

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

President Dwight D. Eisenhower, l952-----

I don't think Eisenhower was the smartest president we've had but I wouldn't use the word stupid to describe him, even though he is calling "conservatives" stupid. No, I would use the words "prescient", "honest", "bold", .... But not "stupid".

You?

[KurtNYC]

62. Ike was talking ABOUT those people, not TO them and

he was making a bandwagon appeal to his own audience.

If he believed that we could just call them stupid and declare victory then he was wrong because those "stupid" people struck down the Fairness doctrine, bought up the media, gutted OSHA, gave us 12 years of Bush presidencies and will come again and again to try and privatize social security. Under-estimating your opposition is the path to defeat.

[Cary]

64. He was a Republican

And he was at the end of his term, leaving elected office forever. How on earth was he making a bandwagon appeal to his own audience?

That doesn't even make sense. Nor does the rest of your explanation. He was calling people he disagreed with "stupid". And you know what? He was right, and he wasn't being stupid.

So much for your theory, eh?

[KurtNYC]

66. Was he talking TO the Texas millionaires at the time he made that statement? No.

So you don't think that I knew Ike was a Republican? Jeez, what do you think I am ? Stupid?

Did calling the Texas millionaires "stupid" stop them?? Did they go home and cry and give up? Aren't they billionaires now? So much for Ike's strategy eh.

[Hugabear]

57. But a lot of teabagger types ARE stupid

They get all of their "info" from right-wing propaganda sources, don't even bother researching anything on their own. I brought up an excellent point a few days ago - many teabagger types like to accuse Democrats of supporting "Keynesian economics" - yet they have absolutely no idea what that refers to, only that they've heard it on the radio.

And what about those who still think that Obama is a secret Muslim, or still demand to see his birth certificate?

[maryellen99]

58. Birthers are morons period nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. The force has a strong influence on the weak minded.

[freshwest]

72. *snicker*

[taught_me_patience]

65. calling them stupid and telling them to "fuck off" garners 55 recs here on DU

Sad what this site has become.

[KurtNYC]

70. if we are talking about the same thread -- the poster lists a good set of reasons

for their position.

I think there is a large diversity of thread categories here and they appeal to different sub-groups of us. Rants, pictures of cats, hot button topics, the 'clever things I said to a Freeper' threads, lies told on Fox news or Hannity et al said something outrageous, and there is room for all of it. Personally I love Big Picture and strategy stuff but I think I am easily misunderstood by some who come from a detail perspective or those from a more emotion-based perspective.

At its best this site allows us each to share our piece of the truth.

[JimGinPA]

67. Huh?

[GeorgeGist]

68. Apparently you don't know the definitions of STUPID.

Definition of STUPID

1 a : slow of mind : obtuse
b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner
c : lacking intelligence or reason : brutish

2: dulled in feeling or sensation : torpid <still stupid from the sedative>

3: marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : senseless <a stupid decision>

4 a : lacking interest or point <a stupid event>
b : vexatious, exasperating <the stupid car won't start

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stupid

[KurtNYC]

71. I see what you did there

and I like it. Dry humor AND irony.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

73. See what you did????

stu-pid adj. 1. Very slow of apprehension or understanding. 2. Affected with stupor; stupefied. 3. Marked by, or resulting from, lack of understanding, reason, or wit;senseless. 4. Tedious;dull -- n. Informal A stupid person. (L, stupere to be stunned) -- stu-pid'i-ty n -- stu`pid-ly adv. -- stu'pid-ness. n.

You made me crack open the ONLY recognized Official Dictionary of alt.tasteless.jokes.

A 1966 edition Funk and Wagnalls.

You should be proud. It hasn't been opened for 11 years.

[Marr]

69. I often disagree with sincerely stupid people.

So I disagree.

[JI7]

74. is anyone saying we should say it to their face ? we are saying it among ourselves

i don't see anyone saying our campaign strategy should be to go out and tell people who are stupid that they are stupid.

[KurtNYC]

78. I gave some left vs right examples but I think it applies in general and right here

Plenty of DUers call those they disagree with "stupid" or as mentioned "crazy." Both are dismissive and shut down any productive communication.

And I don't see a difference between calling someone stupid online versus to their face.

[KatChatter]

75. Yes I know my enemy and those that vote for them and keep them in power

ARE f-ing stupid.

Any nation that would vote for Reagan and Dubya TWICE is f-ing stupid.

The pubs in charge are not stupid they are just evil and they count and relay on stupid people to keep them in power.

Go ahead you be nice to them, I am not interested in even entertaining the idea.

[KurtNYC]

79. I think this "be nice to Republicans" thing migrated from another thread

because I never said be nice. My main point was that there is a risk in under estimate your opposition.

If a country elected Reagan twice because they are stupid then how stupid is the party that lost ? When we consider out opponents stupid then we embrace the idea that we can learn nothing from them. And if we refuse to learn to win then we must be stupid.

(Dubya lost in 2000 and 2004 btw.)

Not much strategy would be involved to win against stupid people but if your strategy is based your opposition being stupid and they in fact aren't stupid then you are going to lose.

[bicelaw]

76. drive every time

Straight drive every time.