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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm sorry. It looks like we are going to War with N. Korea.
Given all that has happened and what I know of Trump, we are now on a collision course for war.
N. Korea completed war-head testing early this morning.
U.S. has informed N. Korea it's prepared for war in response to this morning's tests by N. Korea. State department engagements with S. Korea and Japan escalated, apparently to steel them for the coming bloodshed.
And Trump has tweeted that he's basically given up on diplomacy with China.
And Time is reporting this morning that the only thing between the U.S. and War is self restraint, a choice, and something which Trump does not have.
Given that N. Korea is acknowledged to have ICBM Nuclear capabilities, most military derived opinions advocate escalation of force at this point, pushing N. Korea into action that would trigger an allowable stronger and deadly military response. Basically, provoke N. Korea to strike first and then retaliate with full-on war.
Congress's approval will come.
I wish Trump was not the President. His stance earlier this year accelerated this reaction from N. Korea.
I am fearful to say that it is time to prepare for this reality...
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BannonsLiver
(16,387 posts)
A-Schwarzenegger
(15,596 posts)before I saw your Nah. Whew! Thanks!
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)orangecrush
(19,570 posts)You are right.
RKP5637
(67,109 posts)A-Schwarzenegger
(15,596 posts)of going nuts.
RKP5637
(67,109 posts)... likely saying, my missile is bigger than yours!
A-Schwarzenegger
(15,596 posts)in a wrestling ring to settle this thing once and for all.
Donald outweighs Kim by two hundred pounds, but Kim
is quick on his feet, won several martial arts trophies in
the 4-year-old category, baffling other four-year-olds
with his backward-flip-into-scissors-lock move.
Even as an infant, Kim was likened to Charles Durning
by international wrestling observers because of his
deceptive feints & volleys. So he has a chance vs. Trump,
who in his own wrestling days at military academy was known
as "Dead Weight Donald" because he would fall asleep on top
of his opponents and become thereby immovable. It would
be a worthwhile match to take in some lazy Saturday afternoon.
Better than nuclear war, to be sure.
RestoreAmerica2020
(3,435 posts)Aye! The image of elfeogringo ( Vicente Fox' apt name for eltumpf) in tights.. Que dolor .. que dolor ( what pain what pain to my eyes my heart no alma; okay okay a bit dramatic on my part; not referring to physical appearance.) Both are very mal hombres (bad men ) very ugly humans, really....
Ps. This is all a distraction -- fear, threats uncertainty, and oligarchy--fascim has arrived! Six moths of negotiation and already has given up-- can someone please restrain this nutcase; he's the best deal maker in the world? No, no he"s not, he's a con and a liar!
A-Schwarzenegger
(15,596 posts)like a 50/50 bar in the sun.
RKP5637
(67,109 posts)A-Schwarzenegger
(15,596 posts)
RKP5637
(67,109 posts) 
rurallib
(62,416 posts)that they will back themselves into a corner where the only choice is to look like wimps or come out shooting.
Their work on the ACA repeal and replace is a good example.
Not that any of them or their kin will be hurt. My guess is either Uday or Qusay is drawing up plans for the Pyongyang Trump hotel right now.
leftstreet
(36,108 posts)
RKP5637
(67,109 posts)N. Korea completed war-head testing early this morning.
It's a statement from N. Korea, but it did provoke a statement from the U.S:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKBN19P02W
RKP5637
(67,109 posts)
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)Kim wouldn't dare hit us as he knows he and his country will be incinerated if he did.
He wants those nukes for protection...not for aggression. We won't be in more danger if he has nukes...the milatary and TRump will just use it as an excuse to pulverize NK.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)They're truly a sick regime led by a sick man.
Little Kim will have 3 whole generations of a dissident's family sent to concentration camps to be starved, tortured, used in weapons testing, and to have medical experiments conducted on them. He had his own half brother assassinated in an airport with a WMD(VX nerve agent). He spends nearly the entire GDP on weapons so he can threaten the world, and meanwhile his people are starving to the point where cannibalism is becoming common place in NK. He has people who offend him fed to dogs or shot with AAA pieces.
1-Is this REALLY a guy we want to have nukes and a delivery system capable of reaching mainland US? We basically lose any ability to deal with the problem if that happens. Then what? Do we just let NK continue to terrorize the world for another few hundred years?
2-Why the hell did the South Koreans build up their capitol right in artillery range of NK? It sucks if they get bombed, but maybe they should have considered not building it RIGHT THERE. It's almost entirely SK's fault that we're in this predicament. If they didn't build their capitol so close to NK, then NK couldn't use it as ransom against the world. It would be easy as cake (Militarily speaking) to crush NK if not for their whole "If you attack us we'll shell Seoul trump card".
3-Somethign will eventually need to be done about the NK situation, and waiting longer will just make the problem worse.
sarisataka
(18,656 posts)Have you considered that city of Seoul may pre-date the division of Korea? That maybe it is centuries old and not just built in the last few decades.
Following the armistice the capitol moved back to Seoul there was very little artillery which had the range to reach Seoul so it would not have been a concern. The development of IRBMs makes the location moot as the entirety of South Korea could be attacked.
Saying it South Korea's fault is ridiculous.
How dare SK build anything that might be in range of anything? In addition, how dare they not consider technological advances before building anything at all! They could have found a nice dry cave in the southern most portion of the peninsula and hunkered down in there. The audacity.
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)What do you think would happen to Seoul if we attacked NK?
sarisataka
(18,656 posts)A pre-emptive attack is fraught with danger. I would expect retaliation even if a perfectly launched pre-emptive strike succeeded. I would expect there are standing orders with some units to automatically fire on Seoul if NK is attacked. Any preparation, e.g. evacuating Seoul, would signal imminent military action and likely trigger an attack. Best case is a few thousand casualties among civilians; worst is a nuke gets through and millions die. (For comparison Hiroshima had a population of ~340,000 in 1945 and a 15 kt bomb killed 70,000 directly. Seoul has a population of 10,000,000; NK nukes are estimated in the 15-25 kt range)
Doing nothing is an option hoping that NK eventually feels secure enough to focus inward. Unfortunately when you have a population that is repressed and starving history shows that leaders focus their people on external threats, real or imagined. Each year allows NK to increase their arsenal for the day when/if they lash out at such external threats.
Diplomacy is always on the table but has proven to not be very effective. All international sanctions have proven porous enough to allow NK to obtain technology they want. Of course tighter sanctions could push the regime to the brink of falling and then it must be considered would they take anyone down with them...
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)It wasn't built after the Korean War. It's where it is because it's pretty centrally located in greater Korea, and has been the primary city in that place for a very, very long time. Here is a page where you can read about the history of Seoul and learn many other things about that ancient city:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul#History
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Some cultural and some historical.
Also because it has a dynamite subway system.
Edit..
Just saw your wiki link...
I just love that city..and truly worry for my friends there and my ROK friends throughout the world.
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)Not I! And with DT as commander in chief! Never!
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Except, unlike North Jorea has for sixty five years, we've actually USED our weapons, destroyed millions of lives and dozens of nations, threatened everybody wth nuclear weapons -- including North Korea.
Cannibalism isn't "becoming common place." There were rumors of it during a famine in the 1990s. Same thing happened to China during their famine, but they were willing to do business so I guess we could over look their previous famine/cannibalism. We conducted illegal, inhuman medical experiments on unwitting Black men during my life time, and I'm not that old. How many political enemies has the CIA assissinated?
I am absolutely NOT defending the NK regime. It's sick and twisted.
What I AM pointing out is that, since the US has done the same exact shit to varying degrees, better or worse, than North Korea, and done it all in recent history, we kind of lose the moral high ground. We, the US, doesn't have the moral authority to make a phone call to Pyongyang. We've been at war in Iraq and Afghanistan for fifteen years; we've ceded our right to complain about others' relative bellicosity.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Sure, I have a concern with NK, but the truth is we are the only country to ever use nukes against anyone. I'm uncomfortable killing more people denying nukes to countries that want them. It's our damn fault.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)NK knows any country with Nukes is safe from an American attack! They feel safer with having nukes! And they would never use them knowing their whole country would be committing suicide.
treestar
(82,383 posts)from developing WMDs. So that ship has sailed.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...never declared an end to hostilities.
I don't think we'll see any unilateral military action.
sarisataka
(18,656 posts)we have never been at war with North Korea.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)Because NATO
sarisataka
(18,656 posts)it would fall under the Mutual Defense Treaty Between the United States and the Republic of Korea which obligates the US and SK to come to each others aid in the event of an attack.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Was that sarcasm?
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)NATO constitutes a system of collective defence whereby its member states agree to mutual defence in response to an attack by any external party.
Feel free to substitute anyone you wish for external party. North Korea, aliens, anyone.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)..... state subject to an armed attack, was invoked for the first and only time after the September 11 attacks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO
We were attacked 9/11 by forces more nebulous than North Korea.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)So I'm not sure I understand the connection.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)If North Korea attacks us, and by us, it could mean our troops, doesn't NATO come into play?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)South Korea is not.
If North Korea attacks South Korea, NATO is not obligated to respond (but the US is due to our separate treaty with S Korea).
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)The premise of this thread.
"Basically, provoke N. Korea to strike first and then retaliate with full-on war."
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Strike first - meaning, strike S Korea or Japan.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)"Basically, provoke N. Korea to strike first and then retaliate with full-on war."
I am copying and pasting from the initial post in this thread.
They seem to get along well enough with their neighbors, but they hate the US.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Well here's hoping war can be avoided.
atreides1
(16,079 posts)The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
If the attack occurs in Europe or North America, Article 5 applies...last time I looked at a map South Korea still didn't border the US or Canada!
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)For instance an ICBM being launched at Alaska
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you have any insights?
Eyeball_Kid
(7,432 posts)Trumpy has yet to appoint an ambassador to South Korea?
The guy's a train wreck. But Mattis is in charge of the military, not Trumpy. So a lot would have to happen before a pre-empive strike were executed.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I'm trying to get some insights from the Democratic perspective. All I read is that there are no good outcomes.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)The whole thing fits in quite nicely with the "destroy to rebuild" philosophy often touted by Sarandon (and other "like minded" individuals).
Paladin
(28,262 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)I don't think so.
Generic Brad
(14,275 posts)Trumplethinskin is also Putin's puppet. Putin has his fingers in both governments. Our friends in Asia should be fearful though.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)missile launcher and the only couple buildings with electricity at night.
Orrex
(63,213 posts)Right in front of his stupid fucking face, for instance.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)
Bayard
(22,075 posts)They're not that crazy yet. Unless of course, NK does decide to wipe out Alaska.
lpbk2713
(42,757 posts)I'm going to Lowe's now to stock up on duct tape and sheet plastic. Thanks.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)
obamanut2012
(26,079 posts)When the end comes for Nork, and it will some time within the next 30 years, South Korea, especially Seoul, will be destroyed. It will come with biological and chemical warfare, and probably a dirty bomb or five. I also think China is smart enough to bomb the hell out of Nork when this happens.
I hope we have our military and diplomats home by then, but I doubt it.
A madman baiting a madman.
MedusaX
(1,129 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)I think DU has plenty of division all on its own. I've seen arguments break out on some pretty innocuous stuff lately, let alone the stuff that is intended to divide.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)In opposition to what the op proposed. Of course you are correct with respect to intention.
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Is not. I trust Mattis' judgement to not bring the Apocalypse uoon us anytime soon.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)It would take an idiot to start a war with North Korea.
Xolodno
(6,395 posts)We've moved naval assets, but that's about it. If we started increasing troops, tanks, etc. Then that would indicate war.
However, China and Russia have both sent military ground assets to the North Korean border. If war breaks out, China and Russia will be the ones to do so. If they do, it means they've lost control of Un. We may "know" about it and our naval assets are there to do surgical strikes, but only after its clear to Un that he crossed the line.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)
pansypoo53219
(20,978 posts)because that iWaq thing went so well.
The Genealogist
(4,723 posts)Just a guess here. If he were to get a real, congressionally-declared war with North Korea, no doubt he would suspend the constitution. Boy howdy he could be a REAL dictator then!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)The horrors of such an action would drag on.
Not going to happen.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Honest, none. The deaths will be massive
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)The longer this goes, the more entrenched the NK regime becomes.
One of my best friends is South Korean. His family lives in terror every time there is a missile launch. His male cousins are conscripted into a military they don't want to join. His cousin left for London because he felt unsafe in Seoul and didn't want to serve in the ROK army. Let's get this over with now before NK has ICBMs and the poor North Koreans are doomed for eternity due to nuclear weapons deterrence. Send everyone in northern Seoul to the south (that's the range of their artillery) and take this madman down.
Before you disagree with me, imagine what it's like living under the shadow of total destruction your entire life. 75 million people on the Korean peninsula live in terror because of this one crazy man. Enough is enough.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)After the holocaust the world said "never again" and now they sit by idly while one madman commits similar atrocities against the world and his people (albeit on a smaller scale). Doing nothing and allowing NK to develop ICBM's will forever damn the people of NK to suffering under the Kim Regime, and it will also damn the people of SK to unending terror from the north. Do we allow this future of unending suffering to occur just because thousands might die if we confront NK now? I don't know the answers here, but sitting on our hands and doing nothing doesn't seem like the best play that can be made.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)We nuked Japan in 1945 and went to war with NK less than a decade later and McArthur was on record as wanting to nuke NK, Truman refused.
NK has the crazy idea that having nukes will put them on equal footing with us, it won't.
Maybe if we did two things, the tensions that have existed since 1954 will go way down. First meet and talk face to face with them, no one but us and them. They have asked for that for decades, we have refused. Second, see if the direct talks will result in a agreement on an official declaration that the Korean War is over.
While there is plenty of fault on NK, we are not blameless for allowing this to escalate over 63 years. We missed the chance to keep NK from nukes decades ago with our refusal to talk them down directly. The nuclear genie is out of the bottle with them, our best option is to talk to them directly about arms reduction, maybe we can remove land mines on our side of the DMZ as a show of good faith, because by gosh, with modern weapons, land mines are fast becoming obselete for killing well equipped soldier (we learned a lot of detection stuff from Iraq and Afghanistan)
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Of the many people i know there, quite a few have lived with the dprk issue for decades and do not spend their lives worrying.
I'm sure some do, even many, but my experience has been that it is a minority.
NotASurfer
(2,151 posts)Suppose for the sake of argument you just park a sub off their coast, wait for the next test of one of their glorified bottle rockets, and at the moment it careens back into the sea you fire off one of our low-yield weapons at the point it splashes down. Global condemnation. Not that I have any belief any of the Inflamed Orange Trumphole's staff would have the imagination or capacity to pull that off
Best_man23
(4,898 posts)Any move by the Cheetohead to start an armed conflict with N. Korea will result in his removal from office. The American people have had 15+ years of war and are frankly weary and wary of another conflict without overwhelming provocation.
brettdale
(12,381 posts)It will be a one freakin bomb that trump will drop.
bagelsforbreakfast
(1,427 posts)He will demand to be put in a warhead, which we will gladly do and fire at Kim what's-his-face and when he lands he will be captured and designated as North Korean Undersecretary for DENNIS RODMAN by the North Koreans. That is all. 
